Is The Indie Game Dream Still A Thing? — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 016

Josh, dude, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It is so so fun to talk to you mainly because we I'm going to do a quick introduction here and then I'll let you introduce yourself. I'm excited to talk to you because you're you're the creator of Layers Deep which it's got this Southern Gothic vibe and you and I are both in the South and the South gets, you know, a lot of there's a lot of misnomers about the South. The South in the way I view the South in America is it's gritty, it's hot, it's sweaty. There's there's Gothic vibes. Edgar Allan Poe lived here for a while actually in my state. Um and so there's just a ton of inspiration in the South that I draw from and it looks like the same is true for you. So, that's my quick introduction. That's why I'm excited to talk to you and also Layers Deep looks freaking gorgeous. Um so yeah, is that a good intro for Is that a good intro for for who you

are? Yeah, yeah, super appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Sure, sure. So, tell me a little bit about Over the Garden Wall. We'll we'll talk about that and then we can get into like story time and talk about how you've gotten here. So, tell me about Over the Garden Wall. Oh, yeah, dude, have you watched Over the Garden Wall? Yeah, so so I was told to watch it and so I want to hear I want to I want to hear why it was an inspiration for you for for your game for Layers Deep. Oh, man, so I've been like obsessed with that show ever since it like released. I've always kind of I'm in I come from the animation industry so it's like I tend to watch most new animated projects and when that one came out I like couldn't put it down and then like I was like enough people aren't talking about this and then over the course of time it became like this cult classic and everyone has now seen not everyone but a lot of people have seen it and I don't know if you can see on the footage here. I even got an Over the Garden Wall tattoo. So, I'm I'm holding that up to the camera. That's crazy. It's Jason Funderburker the frog.

But yeah, it's kind of just shaped my taste as an artist and I think everything from like the music to the painted backgrounds to like the the setting. Um they're all things like they all have this fairy tale vibe that I feel like we've kind of lost in Western storytelling. We don't really see that setting in these themes that much. Yep. And um I've been obsessed with it ever since it came out and there's just been nothing that filled the void that that show left in my heart and since since Cartoon Network is um essentially dissolved thanks to um uh you know what you know, I'll self-edit there but since Cartoon Network you're saying. Yeah. I know what you're saying. there's now this void that may never be filled. So, here I am just making the thing that I want to see. By the way, if you're like me and you always dreamt of making an indie game as a full-time job, I have a free webinar below that goes into exactly how to make

six figures with just a demo. I was just like you for years. I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game. I've done this multiple times. So, check it out below if you do want to go full-time indie and thanks for watching. Dude, oh man. Okay, so I was telling Hector, my producer, before this podcast I said and I told you this before we started recording how like I feel like I know you. Like I feel like I know you. I feel like I've known you my whole life because and by the way, how old are you, Josh? I'm 31. I had to think about that. We're basically the the same person. Um I'm 33. So I I I love I can't I don't know how to I don't know how to make a game that doesn't have a fairy tale vibe. Mhm. I don't know how to do it. Because we we we we started working on Twisted Tower 2 and 1/2 years ago, 3 years ago and I did everything in my power to stay

away from the fairy tale vibe cuz it's like, "Well, it's a first-person shooter. So, that that's not going to work." Yeah. And it's almost like osmosis or like magnetism where it just gets drawn right back and so where we are right now with this game is it's just a fairy tale shooter. There's fairy tale vibes all over the place. Like right now we're working on like a fairy tale forest where you jump on like magic mushrooms. Oh, that sounds fun. But you're like shooting guns. It's like such a weird strange vibe. And so the reason I bring that up is do you feel like it's natural for you in in creating Layers Deep and by the way, it looks beautiful. Thank you. Is it natural for you to to just lean into that Southern Gothic creepy fairy tale vibe? Does it Is it just natural for you or is it difficult? Yeah, you know, it's totally natural now. At first it wasn't because like I said, I come from a studio animation background so like my job for the past like 5 or 6 years

would be to like learn it learn a TV show and then learn the style and then draw and animate in that style. Right. When I when the break first started from the animation industry, it was like I was just trying to make things that I think would be popular and like I would just make what I saw and then I like quickly realized that this isn't me, this isn't who I am and I need to just like find out what I like and then lean into it and then ever since then I've just been leaning into um yeah, the fairy tale Gothic thing and like I can't unlean now. It's like you said, once you indulge yourself you can't stop, you know. Yeah, for sure. And you know, I I I've been thinking a lot about this actually because I I I we were talking about this before we started the call where it's like half of your brain as a game developer needs to be commercial like or not commercial but like business mindseted and and think about like I don't know if that's a word, business mindseted but you need to be thinking is this viable cuz do I

really want to spend 2 years of my life creating something that isn't viable in the market. Yeah. And so what I've been thinking about is is is this fairy tale vibe you'd call it maybe Tim Burton. Um you might also think of it as Del Toro, a little bit of Del Toro vibes, right? Is this viable in the current with the current like next generation of consumers? What do you think? Oh, totally. And you know this as a film buff but I feel like folk horror is like uh like studios like A24 have like really blasted that into the mainstream and I think right now it's just so hot right now. I think yeah, it's the way. In 10 years maybe it won't be, maybe people will be sick of it but I think uh I think yeah, it's very viable right now. Yeah. So, in terms of A24, are you are you talking like Pearl? Is that one of them?

Um Sure, Pearl and The Witch which is folk folk horror. for sure, for sure. What about Hereditary or um Midsommar Midsommar maybe? Midsommar seems folk horror-y. You got Anytime you see people stuffed with hay I'm like, yeah, that's that's folk horror. Anytime you see a bear a a guy in a bear suit catching fire? Yeah. Yeah, or a didgeridoo playing in the background, you know. Oh, man, that's the weirder the better, right? I think you just got to get weird with it. I think people like that. Uh you know, you and I both come from film backgrounds or for me it's currently I'm in film as well. Mhm. And uh what I told my DP was for my previous short horror film I said I want every shot to have something in it that no one's ever seen before. Oh, that's good. And and I think that's a really good way to approach anything when it comes to game development. Um

for example, like the character in my short horror film would vape and I'm like, "Well, that's that's really like trope-y. You have a cigarette or a vape in the scene." So, I I bought a big wooden cat statue and I had a friend drill a hole in the cat statue and we painted it red and we put the vape inside of the cat statue. So, every shot that he's vaping he's vaping out of a cat. That's good. And there's no reason for it other than there's literally no reason for it other than I just want people to go, "What is that?" Is it important? What what part of the cat did you drill the hole in for the vape? His butt. Okay, I was going to say. That's a good choice. I think that's that's the number one choice that I would have done as well. I agree. I agree. It was perfect. But the reason I bring that up is cuz I look at your onion character and I'm like it's an onion, right? It's yeah, it's an

and I think about every every and you're bouncing on these frogs. I saw the frogs. And you bounce on these frogs in a lake and there's just something about every single shot in your trailer that I watched, it it says we decided specifically to do this kind of visual for the viewer so that it's unique and different. And I think you've done that really really well with it. Yeah. With Layers Deep where everything has a precise tone and a precise imagery. Did that come naturally or did you have to plan that out in some kind of like game design document? Oh, man. So, the ideas came naturally like the stuff we wanted to do, it all came naturally and but like dude, we were we got to a point we only had like 6 months to essentially make this game. So, a lot of our development was for the trailer. Um Mhm.

That's kind of like the inside baseball kind of thing is like um we wanted to make a vertical slice. We have one now that we're essentially rebuilding, but um we got to a point where we were like, "We're not going to have a demo ready for the Kickstarter." So, yeah, in order to show people that we have some variety in our game, let's just kind of skip ahead to some levels and just start kind of building for the trailer. Which I learned afterwards is something a lot of uh game companies do is they kind of dev for trailers in the beginning. 100% 100%. It's the best way to dev. It really is. In in today's era of trying to stand out on Steam, I think the best way to make a game is to think about the trailer because what like in in the development world, like I was in web design, what they say is mobile first. Like build with mobile in mind. Mobile's always sort of the foundation of everything else that you build. You want it to look great on mobile. At least

that's what they were saying 6 7 years ago when I was in it. The same is true with games. I my my opinion is build your game with the trailer in mind because then it define like all what it does is it hyper focuses you on what's really important. And you could focus on those things especially in indie game development because you have a limited budget and you've got to be effective with every little thing you create needs to be super duper effective. Would you agree? Yeah, yeah, totally. I don't know I'm glad you said that cuz I kind of thought we were doing something crazy and unique there only to find out it's like common practice. I wouldn't say it's common. I would say I learned it from Gavin at Two Star Games who create created Choo Choo Charles. Oh, okay. Well, there there it is. The viral man himself. That's right. He thinks he thinks about the trailer. I mean, I wouldn't say he builds with the trailer in mind, but what he does is he's hyper hyper focused on creating elements in his game that look meme-worthy. Mhm. Um and I would say trailer-worthy.

And so that's I think you definitely are on the right path when it comes to thinking about how how you can put together a trailer and I wouldn't even worry about not having a demo for Kickstarter. That's that's the the idea is what matters. And you can figure out how to make the idea happen later once you get the money on Kickstarter, you know? Yeah, yeah, totally. I think there needs to be a good foundation, but um but yeah, I think like if there wasn't a good foundation, people would see that. I think it'd be obvious. Yeah. Well, let's let's shift gears here. I want to hear about this Kickstarter campaign. When did the Kickstarter campaign end? Oh, man, it ended about 3 weeks ago. Um And there's still some residual stuff. Like we were supposed to have late pledges turned on, but I kind of bungled that. So, we're working with them right now. And we're trying to get a shop going and and uh we're trying to keep that momentum going, but you know, um businesses tend

to move pretty slow regardless, so. Don't feel bad about bungling Kickstarter stuff. I just pulled up an article here from PC Gamer and it says um this is from Andy Chalk. He said, "Never song developer, that's me, by the way, Never song developer accidentally gives away 3,500 Steve Steam keys to each of his Kickstarter backers." Um so the headline is about me. This was May 21st, 2020. It was about me s- accidentally sending 3,500 Steam keys to all of my backers. Wait, 3,500 each? Yeah. Oh my goodness. Gabe Newell was probably so mad with you. But I I bring that up cuz you shouldn't feel bad about making mistakes. It solved itself and it was it was some kind of press, so I was happy about that, I guess. Yeah, that does make it a good story. fixed it. Yeah. Okay, so let tell me about this Kickstarter campaign because I know a lot of people listening are

super duper interested in Well, the big question, Josh, is is Kickstarter still viable? It it is very much still viable. You know it is for sure. I got to be honest with you, I don't know that cuz I haven't done one in I haven't done one in 3 4 years, so well, however long it's been, 4 years, so it's like I don't know if it's still a thing. So, tell me about the process of putting this together and from start to finish. Okay, yeah. And and the validity of the whole thing if it if it if you feel like it was worth your time. Okay, yeah, so about 7 or 8 months ago, um the animation industry shut down. I had a little game I was working on and I had about 6 months of savings. So, I was like the I'm not going to get hired for animation job. I have no choice but to try something new. So, me and my co-developer, Eric, we got together and we scrapped the game I was making and we started fresh and we said in 6 months

we're going to have a finished demo and we're going to try and secure funding somehow. And that was the plan we laid out and then we just worked like dogs to make it happen and we we overshot by a few months, 2 months to be exact, and we were unable to get the demo ready, but it's like it didn't matter that it wasn't perfect because in the end we hit the launch button on the Kickstarter and we said, "Hey, you know what? We tried. We had a plan. We tried our best. We tried our darndest and uh what's going to happen from here is going to happen because I'm out of money. Um so there's no there's no more dev time here. We have no choice but to press the launch button." And we did. And um it ended up being successful. Um so yeah, also thanks to my old boss, Olan Rogers. He's like a YouTuber slash um director now in animation television if anyone knows about Final Space or

Godspeed or any of those shows. He's he kickstarted his show and then I was the lead animator on that show. And then that kind of opened my eyes to how Kickstarter worked a little bit and I and then I I went to launch my game and and my old boss, Olan, he helped me out with some of the stuff. So, I I did have some help. I had some mentorship uh through him. And uh and yeah, we got kind of lucky, but yeah. Yeah, it was a long shot and it only took 8 months and now I'm a full-time game developer. So, I guess that's the headline. What I want to ask you is let's back up though because you just you just glossed over the strategy and I want to reveal this strategy cuz you said you got lucky Mhm. about knowing the right people, right? Mhm. What did this director What was his name? O- Olan Rogers. What did Olan give to you that you can now give to uh the audience listening? What kind of what kind of strategies did you learn to cuz at the end of the day your Kickstarter raised, I think it was 40?

35,000? Uh 48,000. Wow, 48,000. What like it you didn't just click launch, right? You did something. You had a strategy in mind. Tell us about the strategy. So, the strategy was to have at least like 500 to 1,000 people following the page before launching. Also to set a goal that is doable and not shoot for the moon cuz uh clearing your goal is it's easier to clear your goal and then go way beyond it than it is to meet a lofty goal um cuz it it all has to do with like confidence in your project. Like if you clear your goal, people are more confident in your project rather than if you're struggling to meet it, people are less likely to donate because they're or back because they're uh they're they're not as confident in your game. Um next is to have a really strong brand. So, branding is way more important than

I thought. Like I thought like, "Oh, if we had a good a good game trailer, like that's all that needs to happen." But that's not true at all. You need to have a really strong identity. And a Kickstarter is a really good way to build a brand and identity and it kind of is a good way to give people faith in your game to focus on a strong brand. And yeah, those are the kind of main things that he helped me out with. Let's figure this out. You said how many how many followers of the the Kickstarter page did you recommend? What did you say? 500 to 1,000 and that was for the goal of reaching $30,000. Okay. So, I like to try and turn guests' uh advice into a framework that is is can really be applied. Okay, so let's let's figure this out. 500 to 1,000 followers before launching your Kickstarter campaign, correct? Mhm. Is that what you were aiming for? Yes, yeah, correct. Okay. How number one, let's break down let's

quickly give people listening how do they follow you? What what is that? Okay, so that it's like you have a you need to set up a pre-launch page on your Kickstarter and when you link that out, people can click the notify me on launch button. And that's what that is. Okay, good. So, that So, it's kind of like uh everything everything at the end of the day for everybody listening, everything at the end of the day comes down to an email list. Email lists are what Jeff Walker, he's a marketing guru, he calls them a money printing machine. And what people don't understand is is that whether it's following a Kickstarter campaign or wish listing a game on Steam, everybody thinks those are unique. Like, "No, that's not an email list." No, that's that's literally just an email list. And the reason why is because all it does is once they follow you, Kickstarter emails them when they when

it's live. That's it. So, it's an email list. Everything comes down to classic 1990s marketing. I mean, it's the same freaking thing. Um my entire business model for this YouTube channel is based on an email list. Um my business model for my games is partly based on email lists, aka Steam wish lists. So, that's what you're saying when you say people followed you, correct? Ultimately, they're just going to get an email notification. Yeah, totally. And people recommend making your own email lists, like you said. Apparently, it's a lot stronger to just have your own email list than to uh use Kickstarters cuz then they're they're your contacts, so you can email whenever. Sure, you can you can build a strategy around when you contact them. The same is true with Steam. I mean, side note, the the thing about the Steam getting Steam wish lists is yes, it would be wonderful if you owned your own list as well. The problem is is you you want to prioritize Steam wish lists because the

Steam algorithm loves that. And so, if you purely focused on building your own email list for your game, Steam wouldn't know about that. And so, Steam wouldn't know to push your game more because it doesn't have those wish lists. So, that's a side note what as it relates to Steam. I'm curious if that's the same with Kickstarter. I'm sure the Kickstarter back end, I'm sure we could probably reach out to them and ask them, but I'm sure that the back end looks at your followers and knows if they're going to push your game more because one of the benefits of Kickstarter, I'm not sure if you got a front page feature, did you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got a front page feature, I would say in part because it knew to do that before you even hit launch because you had a thousand followers or whatever, you know? Mhm. Maybe. Yeah. Do you do you agree, disagree, would you Oh, no. Sorry. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yes. Got you. So, okay. So, we've got we've got followers. We understand that. How did you actually drive them to the to to subscribe, though?

Okay. So, Reddit and um Twitter were my main social medias that I was kind of pushing it on. But also, like I said earlier when I said I got lucky, I emailed every single influencer and person and contact that I had like all the time. Like, I was constantly emailing people. And uh one of the people that got back to me a lot of peers, who's a a pretty big uh gaming influencer and and host, um agreed to sign posters of a character that she's playing in the game now for backers and then promoted it on her social medias and YouTube and stuff. And that drove a lot of people to the campaign. As well as like I had some of my old connects from like uh Newgrounds that are now doing like TV shows and stuff, like uh retweet all my posts. So, I definitely have that. to launching the campaign? Yeah, this

was prior to launching the campaign. got Alana to participate in a pre-launch sort of campaign. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, you you said you said I got lucky. That's not luck. I don't I don't think. Like, what you did is you you did exactly what any PR agency would do, which is hit all of your contacts hard. And then if if 5% of them bite, you've you've you've won the game, you know? Um and you you tell me about the strategy of putting her in the game. The So, this is what's really cool is this is actually her idea. Like, I just was asking people to maybe promote the game uh kind of horribly. Um and she was like, that's not going to work. Like, she's been doing this for a while, so she's really smart. She came in and she's like, here's what will get you backers. Let me play a character in your game. Do like a painting of the character or whatever. Make a poster of this character and I will sign it and

give it to backers. It was all her idea. I love it. And I was like, holy crap. That's the nicest thing anyone has ever done. Yep. Well, here's another strategy if you if you don't mind, um that I can tell you maybe for your next campaign. Please. And I I learned this from the creator of Seafarer? What's that game? Seafarer game. Oh, man. Crap. It's uh Yeah, Spiritfarer. Spiritfarer. Okay. The creator of a game called Spiritfarer, he also made a game um Thunder Lotus Games. Thunder Lotus Games. I'm looking this up here. So, Thunder Lotus made a game called Jotun or Yoten and also Spiritfarer. They do they typically did Kickstarter campaigns, right? For their games. And so, I reached out to him and I just I said this was like 6 7 years ago. I can't remember when I did it. And I reached out to him. I said, how did you guys I And this is a great piece of advice for anybody listening. Just reach

out to Kickstarter campaign creators who have done have had successful games and just ask if you can call them and talk to them about their strategy. Because Josh, you have some brilliant strategies. And so, if I wanted to do a Kickstarter campaign, I I swear even if I was going to do another a third one, I still would reach out to you and say, hey, what what are some strategies? So, that's a side note. It's important for everybody listening to reach out to other Kickstarter developer or Kickstarter creators who have been successful and get their advice. And so, what he said is he said, put together an email list of all the successful Kickstarter creators who have made games. All of them. Put together their emails, their contacts, their Twitter accounts, everything in a big fat spreadsheet. And reach out to every single one of them before the campaign and ask them if you can give them a free

goodie, give their audience a free goodie if they back in the first 24 hours. It's brilliant. So, basically, what you do is you have 40 different Kickstarter campaign creators with a with an audience size of 500 to 3,000 people that have already done a successful campaign. And then you say, hey, if your backers back my game in the first 24 hours, they will get a free demo. They will get a free signed uh poster. They will get their name in the credits as super backers. But it's only in the first 24 hours of of the campaign. And so, what ended up happening for me is this is how Nevermore raised over 100 or almost $100,000 is that I had on day one in the first 24 hours of that Kickstarter launch, I had like I think 10 different camp maybe six to 10 different campaigns blast their audience of thousands of followers, hey, Thomas has this new game out.

If you back in the first 24 hours, you get his previous game free. And so, that's how in the first 24 hours we raised over $28,000. Does that make sense? that's really smart. That is insane. It's a brilliant tactic. I didn't come up with it. That I learned that from Thunder Lotus. And the point being there, though, is that in the games industry, there are so many obvious strategies to get your game noticed. They're just they're just plain as day, like right in front of your nose, but you can't see them. And you have to reach out to other people and they'll tell you, oh, this is what you do. This is what I did. And so, don't under undervalue, and it seems like you're really good at this, don't undervalue the importance of asking for people's advice in the games industry. And it's crazy because people like me, it seems like, well, Thomas doesn't want to give advice because he's busy. But if somebody asked me for advice and they have my attention, I'll rant for an hour about advice. I love giving advice. It's cuz I'm uh cocky or something. I don't

know. I love giving advice. And so, it's just I want to encourage everybody listening to to reach out for advice because people love to get it. And it's also flattering. So, yeah. And also, a lot of game developers got to where they are because they reached out and got advice. And now a lot of people like me that did that would like to pay it forward and help out other people. Yeah, exactly. So, tell me about how the campaign felt. How did you feel? It was crazy cuz we were going from like like sprinting development to now sprinting marketing. And it's like you said, it's a completely different part of your brain. But yeah, so it was a complete mental shift and I had to reset from game developer to marketer. And it was really weird and jarring at first because you know, like you say in your videos, it's a skill that you need to develop and I hadn't developed this skill, so I was developing it on the fly and it just felt like I was making every mistake in

the book. And um it was crazy. A lot of like lucky breaks and and tough moments, but it's like uh if you're willing to push through and email people like crazy and like actually treat marketing um with the same fervor that you treat game development, then it's it's it's doable. I guess I should say. Sure. Yeah. Did Did you feel sleazy? Did you feel gross? Did you feel guilty? Um you know what? I don't I don't think I did. Um I never let it get to that point. I don't think it is I don't I it's gross or sleazy to message people and to market your market your game. I don't either. I don't either, but a lot of people feel that way and I was curious. Yeah. Was it scary, stressful? Like were you

It was really stressful. I think we got like 20K on like the first two days. So it's like a lot of game developers I'd been talking to was like, "Oh yeah, you're going to be fine." Chris from Squish Shock actually, I would talk to him a lot cuz he had done his Kickstarter and he was there to be like, "Dude, you're fine. You're doing good. Just relax. Like you don't need to stress out. Your game is going to get funded. You're doing okay." Um And this might be a little off topic, but I think the biggest whiplash for me was the week after the Kickstarter. Like right when the Kickstarter ended was the weirdest feeling because like I was living my life around this number and doing everything I can to juice this number and make this number go up. And then the Kickstarter, boom, just ends and you're like, "Whoa, hold on. Now game development doesn't feel productive because I'm not making a number go up. What do I do with myself?" And then the number slowly starts to go down in your bank account.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm used to that. That's familiar. Uh it's it's it's definitely um sort of a side note here. It's a reason for you to consider. Dude, I would love to talk to you privately, you know, about ways in which you could reduce that anxiety. Not not on a meditation perspective, although there's plenty to you can do a lot to calm your nerves in in regard to just mental health, but like there's ways for you to make enough money so that you're not digging down into your savings and burning through cash. Yeah. Um especially with your YouTube channel. By the way, people listening, follow Josh below on his YouTube channel. Thank you. He's really really He's got a really I told my producer I was like, "He's got such a great personality. It's so he's so interesting." Um there's a guy who goes on Joe Rogan. I can't remember his name. He's also he got an animated show. What's his name?

Trussell. You remind me of Duncan, man. Oh, that's That's a huge compliment. I don't know if I can take that. And I love his show. His I only could handle the pilot though. It was just so much. The Midnight Gospel. show. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful show. You got to watch the the ending of the show. That is a beautiful ending of a TV show. And here's I wanted to leave you with this little piece of like this nugget of something I wanted to tell you. It's completely random. But you have flavor. You have personality, charisma, and you have style. Okay? All that's good. And you've got voice. You've got all these things that are super duper necessary for YouTube, but also for game dev. I don't know what your skills are with game design. But I will just say if you're going to make a Southern Go a Southern Gothic Over the Garden Wall Hollow Knight. If you're going to do that,

swear to me you will make sure the gameplay is good. I Oh, I swear. I swear. That is the first thing. That is the first thing we're doing. Absolutely the first thing. You you have everything you need and what you're going to do, this is a complete side note, I don't know about I can just speak from if I were you, I would be obsessed with the tone of the game and I would be obsessed with the visuals and I would be fine-tuning every little freaking thing and I would overlook the gameplay because that isn't something personally I'm passionate about. I'm passionate about story and the look. Mhm. And so I just want to advise you to get people and if you're this person as well, listen to your own instincts, but get people who are obsessed with gameplay in the Hollow Knight sphere, like Metroidvanias, and get them to play it and just rip it apart. Oh yeah, we got those people. They're they're in our Discord. They're ready. And also like I'm only one half of the dev team. The other developer, Eric, he's a gameplay

programmer. He is like that is his bread and butter is like fine-tuning tight gameplay. He is like a master at it. So it's like even if I was a complete failure in the gameplay department, there's another half to pick that slack up. So And uh Chris uh at Squish Shock, he's he's your guy because he he did he did what you did and it's it's definitely not I'm not sliding or saying what you've done is wrong, but what you and Chris did is you you created a Hollow Knight with a different flair, basically. Sure. Yeah. And I I think that's totally fine cuz it's like Metroid created a genre, Metroidvania, right? Uh or Castlevania and Metroid I think Castlevania and Metroid made it together. I don't know how that genre was created, but um Hollow Knight is kind of its own little genre now. It's like storybook Metroid, you know. Yeah. Um and so I would just say that he's your guy. Chris is your guy to listen to. The

reason I bring all this up is sort of the justify the segway, which is Kickstarter proved the tone. Kickstarter proved that the tone and the style is you're locked in there and it's good to go. Mhm. So you don't need to worry about that anymore in my opinion. I don't think you need to try and do anything more or and spend more money and time on on getting the art style and the tone of the game correct. Oh man, I wish I could take that advice. Spent yesterday Bush bushes. I was painting them all day redoing them. Obsessively. that's the question is like it's not asset creation that I'm worried about for you. It's asset recreation. It's almost like you're go I bet you that you're the guy that can't sleep until something looks right. That is true. Yeah. And you've it's like a drug, dude. It's like I got to have my cigarette. And you're going to have to quit smoking

here. You got to quit smoking your art because it's going to it's going to cause you to I'm speaking from my personal experience. It's going to cause you to double the development time. Yeah. When in reality, nobody cares. They want good gameplay. You've already got the tone down and the art down. So that's just my opinion. I could be completely completely wrong, but I think it could be 10 times better, but then yeah, it is like a drug and I am you are speaking to an addict of art perfectionism. So I hear what you're saying, but am I listening? Time time will tell. That whole phrase. That was What's the guy on Joe Rogan again? Um Duncan Trussell. That was just a straight Duncanism what you just I love that. Um am I listening? No. Time will tell. I think that's

hilarious, Josh, and I think that it's just a sort of a warning and it's coming from somebody who literally this week um had difficult conversations uh about Thomas's inability to just let it be. Like let the artwork be. It's fine. It's fine. I appreciate you saying it, dude. I really needed to hear it. I feel like you can Maybe it's cuz you just walked this path so long, but you just kind of spotted you like pinpointed my weakness and then brought it to the light. And it hurt. It hurt to have a light shine on it. I hurt you, Josh. I'm sorry. It was out of love. I I appreciate it. it's out of love cuz I I know what I know what the reviews can be. They can be something like this. Um hauntingly beautiful, but nothing like Hollow Knight. Hauntingly beautiful, but doesn't understand its genre.

Yeah. I mean we won't let it happen. I am I've played every Souls game and Hollow Knight and Ori like five times over and I'm obsessed with tight skill animation based Good. uh combat. And as an animator, like when I'm animating this stuff, I'm like frame perfecting a lot of the hits and I'm like obsessed with that minutia in the gameplay. So I won't let the gameplay falter. That's great. I will obsess over art still. Well, the truth is is it's it's um the artwork is why you are where you are today. And so it's not that it wasn't important or isn't important. It's that um gameplay is I think it's more important. I think it is. It is more important. It is. coming from an artist. I I'm an artist and and a I'm an atmosphere guy and a story guy and gameplay no, I don't care about game I don't play games.

Dude, I was playing BioShock. I played Bio Like my game Twisted Tower is based on or it's inspired by that that genre, you know. Some people would call it um immersive sim. Apparently, that's what the genre is. I didn't know that. Um So I don't care about gameplay. I don't care about genre. It's just not my thing. I would rather go watch like a David Lynch movie or something. But I like making games. I like making games. I don't like playing them. So I was playing BioShock uh 2 days ago. Mhm. I was I was bored. I was like I I don't know. I I like the I like the tone and the story, but like once you get into the grinding of the gameplay, I'm just bored. And so the reason I say all this and the reason I bring all this up to you now is that if you're an art guy, I have seen no indication from your trailer that the gameplay is going to suffer. I'm just saying this is where I am. This is the season of life I'm in right now where Mhm. Twisted Tower, we we gave it to people who are first-person shooter fanatics.

And they were like, "This is lacking. This is lacking. This is lacking. This is wrong. This is not fitting the genre." And it was devastating. Yeah. just don't I don't want you to be in that position. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Okay, well, we've got we've got one thing that I wanted to hear from here, and I've written it down. If you were to tell us shift gears here, if you were to tell your your kid. Do you have kids? No. Okay. Maybe one day. If you were to tell your kids or maybe just a young person Mhm. in your experience, how they can go from knowing nothing about making games to the position you're in now, which is self-funded full-time independent game developer. What what would you what would the the blueprint be to give to them? What are the steps they need to take? Okay, the blueprint is

um multi-phases. The first phase is exploratory. And this phase you need to be willing to be in for as long as you need to be in it, which is like tutorials, making crappy games, etc. You need to play and you need to explore, and game development needs to be a place for playing and exploring and failing. And then the next phase is a um more like a better version of that where you're making and releasing games, and they're small games. And then the third phase is making a bigger game and committing to a project and not doing any other games other than that one game and swearing to yourself you'll never do any other project until that game is finished. And that'll be okay because you did your exploratory phase. So Yes, okay. Does the exploratory phase involve releasing small prototypes and stuff? I

think it it can, but I don't think it should be a requirement. How do you know when the game idea is worth pursuing? Um when you think about it all the time and you feel it in your chest, and it's a physical feeling and not just a mental feeling. Oh my goodness. That is such good advice, but it's so difficult to parse. Like or some people some people might not have that feeling ever? Does that mean they that their game isn't good? I mean, I don't know. This is where we get into like now we're really on the Joe Rogan podcast. Now we're like Are you smoking weed? I'm not. Now we're getting metaphysical. If you don't ever feel that, it could be you've never had an idea that you really are passionate about, but I don't know if I want to say that. You could just be biologically made up different than I

am. Um man, uh it it also depends on your age. If you tell me you're a 16-year-old and you've never had that feeling, well, give it time. If you're a 50 if you're 50 and you've never had that feeling, then you're probably just a different person than me, and you'll need to find a different process for how you uh decide what to pursue. Okay. What is the feeling in your chest about Layers Deep? Um it's just like this it's a physical feeling, so it's like it's it's like a a pump of adrenaline and excitement and a bit of a rush. And the kind it's the kind of feeling where if you're laying down, you're sleeping, you get up and you start pacing around the room. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Oh, man. I dude, last night I was up till two or three. Couldn't sleep. Usually take melatonin cuz I just can't

sleep. Dude, same. take Dude, I used to take Benadryl. Like two I'd pop two Benadryl to get to sleep cuz I could not stop my brain. been that I I have insomnia. This is last night was my first ti- night sleeping more than 4 hours in about a week. It's been rough. Is it cuz you're thinking about your game or is it just general stuff? I don't know, lots of stuff. I went to a doctor and they prescribed me some heavy pills, and I'm just like, "I'm not going to take that, dude. I'm just going to I'll figure it out." I meditate all the time, that helps, but yeah, I don't know. I've been suffering from insomnia for my whole life. I'm sorry to hear that. No worries, man. So, anyway, I ran out of melatonin last night. Yeah. It's not like it's an illegal drug, people. It's just it's it's natural, at least that's what they say. And I I ran out of Benadryl, and I couldn't sleep, and I just could not stop thinking about my game, Twisted Tower. Like I came up with this whole system in my brain. I'm not saying I'm a genius, I'm saying it's a problem.

I had this whole system in my brain about how to build exterior levels combining terrain with blocking out using ProBuilder. And I was linking that with how Half-Life 2 did it, and it all was like clicking. Mhm. And it was like 3 hours of putting this together, and it got to the point where it was almost like a dream of like building this system. And so I woke up in the morning, and I I quickly recorded a video for my my 3D artist, and I was like, "This is how we're going to do it." Cuz we were really struggling how to create that system and create exterior levels that still use interior development or interior processes. So, long story short I couldn't sleep. And it I was building the game in my brain at night. And that that is a passion. Is it a passion for the process or is it a passion for the idea? Because for me, I just love making games. It's It's just so

it's like I'm addict- it's like it's like a being addicted to like a crossword puzzle. It's the process that's fun. Yeah. Now, so the question for you when it when it comes to Layers Deep is like is it you feel it in your chest because you love making games and doing art or is it because there's something visceral about Layers Deep, about the the southern gothic vibe, the the fairy tale vibe? What is it about Layers Deep specifically? Or is it Layers Deep? It's got to be I think it's a combination of both, right? Cuz I don't think you should do anything unless you love the process. Like the reason I got into game development is cuz like I could be making crappy games I don't care about and have fun because the process is fun. Um but the idea gets me juiced. The game itself gets me juiced and uh keeps me up at night. Dude, also so does the creating of the game. I feel like I could feel this way about like this isn't my one game that I'm

excited about and then I make it and then I just kind of wait until I die. It's like I could feel this way about tons of projects, and I feel like maybe it's a personality type. Maybe it's why um Miyazaki will never retire, the uh Studio Ghibli creator, why he's just going to keep making films. Sure. Because it's just like a part of who you are. You don't You're the kind of person I can tell you don't create because it's fun. Like you create cuz you have to. You're like, "This is what I have to do." You know? It's true. It's a part of who I am. Uh it's probably a chemical there's pro- I some sort of serotonin thing or something. It's a It's a dream. Oh, yeah, dude. It's It is a problem. It certainly sounds pretentious, but I don't care. Any game developer who's listening right now knows exactly that this is all true. There's something about solving a game design problem or or creating an illustration and putting it in the game where you just like I don't know a better word, it's an

ejaculation. It's just so it feels so good. It feels so good. It's like cigarettes. I love I love nicotine. Nicotine is my favorite substance beyond any other thing. I love it so much. And I quit. I By the way, I quit. I don't I don't do any of that anymore. And I miss it every day. It's like a it's like one of my best friends died. Um but the same is true with game development. It is a buzz. It is a buzz, and I don't know what it is. It's like playing God or something where you put this this you you put something into this world, you birth something, even if it's just something small like you finish a bush, like you mentioned. And it's like "Yes, I did the bush." And you feel so good for like an hour. And then the next day you're like, "Oh, now I need to focus Now I need to do the lily pads." You know? Oh, I love doing a lily pad. That is what I want to do now. Now I'm going to put the bushes down. That'll be the rest of my day, lily pads. That's So, do you think do you think that's true for

everybody or is there is it something genetic? Is it something in our blood? Oh, man. I don't know. I feel like I would have to live another person to know this. It's a cuz you can only speak from yourself, you know? But I I guess if we're speaking to your listeners, I guess there are a lot of people like us, right? So, I think yeah, I feel like if you have this like beast within you, learning how to tame it and uh treat it like nicotine that you can keep at an arm's length, then then yeah. And I mean, it's funny like you you talk about creation and stuff. I know you're a you're God-fearing man. I'm kind of Yeah. I don't know where I stand on that, but I do think there's something and I do think creating things, like actually making something new and then putting it into the world. I do think that is like there is some sort of divineness to that. I think like uh whether it's just a vibration in the universe or there is a creator. I think like what are doing that is how you get

closer Sure. to that uh I don't know. Soul. I I Yeah, I I think that uh I think that So, like the the what it says is in in like Christian theology or I guess you it would be even Jewish theology as well as that human beings are the like they're the thumbprint or like they're made in the image of God, right? So, you're like you're like a you're like a little mini duplicate of this initial impetus. This forever impetus that was always there. Uh as opposed to like um like a I I I I created God. There is the the like the the definition of a God or the definition of the Hebrew God would be the thing that always was and and never became. And so, human beings believe or Christians and Jews, what they believe is that they are the

the thumbprint of that. They are the the made in the image of that. Therefore, they they behave in such a way that is very similar to that ultimate capital G God. So, it's like you're running around as like little little mini gods. And the whole like the whole um the whole like story or like the personality of God presented in the Bible is like he is he loves creating and he loves to make. And he gets tired by it. On the seventh day, he rested. He gets exhausted by his passion for creating. Yeah. And so, if you want to look at the Bible as mythos, you know, you can still garner something from that, which is like the mythos is God's God loves to create. He's obsessed with creating. And not only that, he wants to put himself into the world.

That's his ultimate goal, isn't it? I want to put myself into the world so that the world reflects me. And the same is true with game developers. It's like Josh wants to make Layers Deep so that it's this big fat mirror that reflects what he knows is inside, but he can't quite say it. Harsh, but true. Do you feel that way? Yeah. Yeah, totally. And like like I said, like I'm kind of like on the fence. Like I'm like creationism could totally be a thing. Like it's Yeah. to say it to say it's not possible, I think is um reductive and crazy. But it's like even if you don't believe in creationism Yeah. I think someone something someone smarter than me on TikTok said that when you think about the universe being created, you are the universe thinking about the universe, which is uh which is like a crazy thought. So, say that one more time. I want to I want to try and fully grasp that. Well, you since you are a part of the universe as a being living in the universe, you are the universe. So, if you think about the creation of the

universe you're the universe thinking about its own creation. Yeah, or you're at least a you're at least a piece of it. Um There's something there um that I think is like that's why we love creating cuz it is um us being what the universe is. It is the universe enjoying playing in its own creation. I don't know. Well, also, it's like is creation recreation or is creation creating from nothing? That's that's a real struggle because like human beings, we can we we we're bound by the laws of physics or the laws of thermodynamics. So, when I make a game, this is what's so weird. A game is a physical thing. So, when I create a game it's literally matter that is that is put into my screen. And it is it's so weird. You're you're you're not creating something brand new. You're you're you're taking dust and you're putting it onto your screen.

Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah, I I'm of the mind that there's no such thing. There's no originality. I think everything is from something. Yeah. So, we're we're just we're just restructuring our the dust that is around us and putting it into this beautiful little poetic gift and we're saying, "This is who I am. This is me. And I want you to play This sounds weird. Play with me. Play with my personality and and become part of my world." Now, this isn't necessarily true for AAA. But for indie developers to be indulgent. This is where you have to indulge yourself and why you have to create something that you physically feel because then cuz that's when people interact with something that's made with that kind of love, people feel it. You you feel it, so you make it and then

people receive it and they feel what you felt. Ideally. And that's the create That's what That's what's real. That's the realness. For sure. For sure. Man. So, did you did you feel that way with animation? Yeah. Yeah, totally. I still love animation. It's why the game I'm making is like a lot of people are kind of uh a lot of people are calling it like Cuphead-like, which I didn't even think about when I was making it, but I just think because I'm a traditional animator and I was trained in like paper flip animation by like a Disney animator and that's like uh Yeah. how I like to animate, that's just coming through in the game. Like it's got to be hand-drawn frame-by-frame animation, I think. Do you I I have a question about this the art style. Here I am going to get you to make a change to the art style. Oh, for sure. I don't I like the the crispness of the cover art versus the depth of field blur.

Yeah, this is something This is another reason why I've been having a hard time sleeping cuz like I told you Sorry. We're scrapping We're scrapping everything. But like one of the biggest feedbacks we got during our Kickstarter was that the player character uh doesn't stand out above the background enough. And a lot of that has to do with it. We did a color colorful line work for the player character, which was just a mistake. We got to go black. So, we did that and then we took the lighting and put the lighting behind the character. Yeah. So, now the character backlights things. But Hollow Knight does the same thing. Right? Hollow Knight does the same thing. Yeah, and a lot a lot of Metroidvanias copy a lot of The Oh, the reason a lot of Metroidvanias look like Hollow Knight is because Hollow Knight solved a lot of artistic problems Metroidvania had Metroidvanias have. Yeah. And I think like a lot of people are using those solved problems now. I think that's just game development. Absolutely. Absolutely. And because it's a a visual solved problem, a lot of people are like this looks like Hollow

Knight. But if you actually break it apart, it's like having a blurry back blurry background and a a player character that has the same proportions as Mario because it controls better. Um or as opposed to the Metroid that is a a cylinder, so it controls kind of like clunky. Um These are just visual problems that have been solved. So, a lot of people are just like that's Hollow Knight rip-off, but it's like if I were to take those solved problems away, you would complain I don't care about the blurry background being similar to Hollow Knight. That's not my concern. I literally compared the cover art. I looked at the cover art and I compared it with the the gameplay and I thought that cover art feels so much more stylish to me. It does. Yeah, I and that's what we're trying to get to. And we're trying to get there in a way where the player character doesn't um look bad with a moving panning background. And that's like that's the this week. That's why I've had a hard time sleeping cuz we're trying to kind

of re-solve the problem. Well, can't you solve it? Can't you solve it, Josh, with just a a faint overlay of fog behind the player? we we've been writing fog shaders this week a lot. And uh it's looking so much better. And uh we're we still have the blur in our current like iteration, but instead of like the amount we it's just like one blur layer and it's much smaller and then we're using just atmospheric perspective to just kind of color push the uh to the background. Yeah, but I think if if if you could This is hilarious cuz I was just telling you not to focus on the art. This is just coming from an artist. I'll never unfocus on the art. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at the cover art and I just think it's it I think it hits the tone stronger

for the tone you're trying to go for and it also separates it from Hollow Knight. Which I think is Yeah, and you're not the first person to say that, by the way. This is like you're the second person to say that. So. Yeah, I I think I'm I'm pulling up Photoshop here. I'm going to try and Okay, I guess I could just record my screen if you don't mind. You can't see this, but I'm just going to go to my screen here. And an illustrator either, so like capsule art is something I've never done. So, that was uh You're not an illustrator? Yeah, I'm I I think of myself as an animator, you know, not an illustrator. artwork here? Yeah, I did. But it was kind of That's hilarious. Then you are an illustrator. That's That's an odd phrase, Josh. I I guess I'm so used to animation pipelines and breaking myself apart. But 2D animation is your is your bread and butter, yeah? That is my bread and butter. Okay. So, all I'm doing is I'm pulling open Layers of Fear right now. You can't see it, but Layers of Fear? Oh, no. I'm not It's not

Layers of Fear. Sorry. That was a That was an image that showed up on Google that was next to Layers Deep. Uh pulling up Layers uh Deep and I'm just thinking like, what would happen if you just created more fog? Um and even did a gradient shift of going from like a yellow fog and it gradients all the way back into like a dark orange to create sort of a orange horizon. Um Dude, this might be the way. If getting rid of the blur fixes this problem, I'm going to be so mad cuz it's so simple. Well, what do you mean getting rid of the blur fixes the problem? Well, I I I guess I don't mean just getting rid of the blur, but going with a a base atmospheric perspective and no more blur. a I think it's the solution is fog. I do. Um you're probably not going to like this, but I'm going to send it to you on Discord. Oh, please. It's It's Thank you. It's a potential It's not perfect, okay? And it's probably too much, but it's it's a solution

that is that I feel is diff- Now, I've created a gradient there. Um that gradient is trying to mimic what I'm really going for, which is as you go further and further back, the fog changes colors. So, the things far, far back are silhouetted orange. And then as they come forward, they get more and more silhouetted green. Um but that's that's It's not perfect, but it's a solution to to avoiding blur and keeping that beautiful line work. Like that that ink line work. try this. I cannot wait to open Godot. Oh my goodness, we're in Godot? We're in Godot. You You're on the winning team. Congratulations. I guess. You're You're part of the correct religion. Um I'm kidding, kind of. Being a little tongue-in-cheek there. No, people don't like Unity for for plenty of reasons, uh but the problem is is they get mad at Unity developers, too.

And I'm like, y'all, we're not a It's not a cult here. We're just picking tools. Um but anyway, anyway, I I digress. Okay. Well, any uh any other thoughts, comments before we wrap up here, Mr. Josh? Um Leave our audience with anything or Yeah, um one of my biggest regrets before doing the Kickstarter was not signing up for Full Time Game Dev. So, I think what you should do Come on. is don't don't be a Josh. Sign up for Full Time Game Dev. And uh and you will likely perform better than I did. That's That's kind of a joke, but it's also not. I appreciate that. I will pay you after this call. Thank you for doing the ad read. No, I'm kidding. Um No, that that means a lot. And I will say, guys, wish list Layers Deep Below. Um and follow Josh's YouTube channel. Josh, you and I were talking about

YouTube and all that before we started the call. And I want my audience to encourage you and jump on over and subscribe. We have very similar sensibilities. Where we we have very similar personalities in a in a lot of ways. So, be sure to follow Josh below. I think your channel's going to blow up as long as you keep posting content, but Yeah, I Well, I appreciate that. All right, Josh. Thank you so much, dude. This was fun. Let's do it again, okay? Yes. All right. Cheers. By the way, if you're like me and you always dreamt of making an indie game as a full-time job, I have a free webinar below that goes into exactly how to make six figures with just a demo. I was just like you for years. I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck, but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game. I've done this multiple times. So, check it out below if you do want to go full-time indie. And thanks for watching.