How This Game Dev Made Over $1,000,000 — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 015

Danny, I've I've been looking forward to chatting with you for the last couple weeks. Um You as well, Thomas. Yeah, thanks, man. So, I looked I looked at E Shayd and I think there's 4,000 reviews on Steam. It's very positive, correct? Yeah, I think so. That's just that I don't know if people understand how impressive that is. Um that number one means it was a highly profitable game just because of the amount of reviews. That's more reviews than my games have gotten. Um and to get a very positive score on Steam, especially with like a very simple cozy game that we'll talk all about this, but basically E Shayd is super chill and there's not a lot there's not a ton going on except for a few high-quality gimmicks that are very valuable and and very unique. Point being, you did something and then I'll let you introduce yourself, but I just want to say you've done something with E Shayd that is very scary. And that is you keep it simple, you avoid

the bloat, and you just trust that that single gimmick is good enough and that that's all players are going to want. And so, I'm I'm impressed with what you've done with E Shayd. So, all that said, you want to finish up your introduction? Tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, sure thing. Yeah, well, my name is Danny Weinbaum and I have been an indie developer for I think 14 years now. I quit my job in AAA games. I used to work at a studio called Sucker Punch Productions. I made Infamous Second Son and now probably more famous for Ghost of Tsushima, which I did not work on. I left before they started that. Uh but I quit to make E Shayd. I I knew I wanted to make a really weird a weird game where the setting was kind of the star of the game. And so, I started working on that and then eventually ended up roping my wife my my now wife in a few years in and uh and we finished it together in

2019 and it shipped um yeah and it's it's made about a little over gross revenue is about 3 million. Uh well 3 and 1/2 million um all platforms. And and now we're working on a on a new title called Songs of Glimmerwick and that's Ooh, okay. I didn't know you were making a new game. Yeah. Songs of what? I'm looking it up right now. Um it's called Songs of Glimmerwick. Songs of Glimmerwick. Ooh. Oh my goodness and it's a it's a deviation from the 3D vibes. It's 2D now. Do you want to talk about it now or do you want to do it a little later? No, I want to hang I want to I want to I there's a couple more important questions that I I want to ask you. Okay. Um by the way, if you're like me and you always dreamt of making an indie game as a full-time job, I have a free webinar below that goes into exactly how to make six figures with just a demo. I was just like you for years. I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck, but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game. I've done this multiple times. So, check it out below

if you do want to go full-time indie and thanks for watching. I want to hear I want to hear about this story. Okay, so the story of going full-time indie because you're what I would call the 2010s, I don't know what the right word is, 2010s indies, like the OG indies. Right at the tail end of the the a flash era dying. Really? I don't feel like I'm an OG. I feel like I'm like third third third generation onslaught or something. I don't know. Well, how old are you, Danny? I'm 33. Yeah, so like Okay, so we're the same age. We're we're from the same era. So, I don't know what that era would be. I started when I was 18 when it was 2000 10 or 2009. So, I guess I was 19 years old when I really released my first like game that made some money. Was that the same time you started making games? Um 2000 Yeah, I think so. I think I I got my first job at ArenaNet, actually, who

made Guild Wars. I I believe I was the youngest person at the whole company. I think I was 18 when I first started there. Okay. Okay, so I don't know what generation that makes us, but it's definitely it's like there's a lot of people listening right now where making games in 2010, they were 10 years old, you know? Uh if there's there's they have no point of reference, so I you know, you probably were inspired by Edmund McMillen and Jonathan Blow. Am I wrong? Am I right? I well, I I've certainly seen Indie Game: The Movie. I think I think I had already I can't remember if I'd already gone indie by the time I saw those saw those movies, but um Right. Right. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so give me the story. Let's let's start from the very beginning of when you started making games, that first time you opened up software, all the way all the way to the point where you released E Shayd and thing things started working for

you. I think I started with um like my initial inkling on my path to games, I think was a program called Vue, which is a really uh niche like foliage visualization program for mostly for film. Anyhow, my my brother downloaded it, and um I was just messing around with it. And I got pretty sucked in right away. I knew I wanted to be a 3D artist at that point. Um the only thing I didn't know was what industry I wanted to go into. And I think I played I think Half-Life 2 was the game that made me feel like oh my god, I want to make game environments. Like I want to make this sense of place. So, um that's when I started really honing in on video games. I eventually went to a trade school called Future Poly, which is now closed. And it was kind of different from other schools cuz they weren't accredited. Like uh you know, you weren't going to get a degree or anything, but the teachers, most of them worked at

ArenaNet. And the whole like kind of impetus for starting the school was basically most teachers in academia in for video games have no idea what they're talking about. Um and it's partially because the schools are accredited, which means you need a master's degree, and basically no artists in the games industry have master's degrees. Um even though some of them like the idea of teaching, uh ain't nobody going to go back to college to get a master's degree. So, you end up with a bunch of teachers that have no idea what they're talking about, um and have really no business teaching how to be an artist in the games industry. Um so, I kind of picked up early on that schooling wasn't going to be important. Like I knew that I just needed a banger portfolio. And this trade school really helped It was like It was like a 3-month course. And I just It was like It was like an explosion It was like a Cambrian explosion of of like learning at that time. And I was just right in the right time in my life. I had nothing else going on. It was like do or die. I I kind of had like

I guess low self-esteem about like wanting to be an artist in my life and um hoping that I'd be able to get a job. And I told myself like, "Well, I'm going to get a job in the games industry or I'm going to die trying. Like this is what I'm going to do. There is no backup. Um and I just went super duper duper hard. I was working like 12 hours a day on my uh portfolio pieces during the course of this class. And ended up the teacher threw out a uh the teacher which actually was my mentor for a number of years. Um he threw out sort of a bone to the class. He said, "We're looking for interns." And uh they put out an art test for the entire class. And basically everyone did it, but I ended up uh landing the internship, fortunately. And that was kind of my start Mhm. into games. And then I could I guess the next like 3 and 1/2 years are kind of boring. I don't know. I worked in AAA. I learned some stuff, but mostly I just, you know, did environment art stuff. Um let's see. And then so when I was way Hang on. You can't gloss over AAA like that.

What what What was it like working with AAA? I mean, you clearly wanted it out of your life because you abandoned it. And so I got I got to figure out what happened there. So I really liked um I really liked working in AAA. I I was treated really well. I know a lot a lot of folks talk about, you know, crunch and and toxic work work culture and things like that. My experience was was unfortunately really good. Um I just basically I started working on I knew I always wanted to make my own game. I knew that the entire time I was working in AAA. I was actually learning to code uh in the wee hours during that entire time period. Um I I sort of felt like, "Okay, I've got like art in the bag. I'm I'm an industry level artist. Now I'm going to learn how to code." Um And well, I actually dreamed of finding a programmer. And when I realized that that was probably not going to happen, at least not one that like wanted to work on my game, which is kind of like why why would they want to work on my game? Like why wouldn't they would

probably want me to work on their game. So I was like, you know, I'm just going to learn how to code. Um I started working on what would become E Shade. And I just was like so addicted, like more addicted than I've ever been on on any like imagine like your most addictive moment on like an RPG, like World of Warcraft high, you know, high uh like in that in that moment when you're just you can't wait to play. That's basically how I was about working on E Shade. And I've realized I just couldn't I couldn't stay up to 5:00 in the morning every night and try to go back into work every day. It was just it was killing me. were you? I was 24 or 23. Yeah. Dude, I feel like you and I were like Dude, this is a crazy thought. You and I were both waking up early. And we were both doing this at the same time. I mean, I was on the East Coast and you were on the West Coast. Maybe we were even waking up at the same time. I was I was going to bed early. Like I was going to bed at like 4:00 or

5:00 a.m. Um But that's just crazy. It's almost like there's this spirit or like this zeitgeist of like two motivated devs. I don't know. I'm I'm thinking of maybe a little bit too poetic about this, but there was dude that I know what you're talking about cuz I was up at 5:30, 6:00 a.m. before my day job. Did you already have a baby at that time? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Heck no. That would have been horrible. Yeah, cuz I was wondering. I was like I feel Yeah, that that would be hard. If I had If I had had a kid when I was trying to build my first game, the kid would No. That would have sounded bad. The game would have died. The game would have died, yes. The game would have died. My game baby would have been put put down, okay? Because it would Man, that was dark. But that that that that that feeling you're talking about, dude, where there's it's almost like a religious experience. And it's just you and you're sitting in front of a computer and this

you're like playing God and you're putting this world together and nothing else matters and you it's almost like you have infinite energy. Mhm. But also when it's done, when you close I I'm assuming you work in Unity. Is this correct? Yeah, I Well, I started out in CryEngine, but anyhow, this this is in the weeds. So, when you when you close Unity and then I'll shut up here, but when you close Unity, suddenly the exhaustion catches up. It's almost like you went through a time portal and all of a sudden you're like what did I just do? I just worked 6 hours. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. And then you have to go to bed and go to work, at least in my case. Uh it is yeah, it was very, very powerful It was a very special time in my life. Um especially when I made the decision to quit, it was like that first year was just every single day was like Christmas. Like going to bed was like Christmas morning. I couldn't sleep cuz I was so excited about Wow. waking up and working more on it.

Um I guess I should probably cover every everyone's going to ask this, like how did you just quit your job? So, since like I said, I knew I had always wanted to make my own game and I always assumed that nobody was just going to give me a bunch of money. Um I was making like white-collar money pretty early, uh especially for how young I was. But I was living like a college kid and I continued to live like a college kid basically until until A Hat in Time shipped. Um just because uh well, both both my now wife and I, Jacqueline, um we were just really pinching our pennies and I was pinching my pennies throughout my career in AAA because I knew that I wanted to have this pile of money. I actually thought I was going to take till I was like 50 or something. Like I thought I'm going to need a ton of money cuz I'm going to need to hire people. Mhm. Um but then I saw people making really impressive games uh by on their own and I sort of got a little bit like a little bit motivated, a little bit maybe jealous even, a little bit competitive. Um I I've always kind of had a chip on my

shoulder that is completely unjustified and I haven't like I've everyone's been really nice to me in my life and supported me. white-collar money over here. Exactly, I know. Like and everyone's always just like believed in me and stuff, but for some reason feel the same though. I'm the same way. Go ahead. Okay, that's good to know I'm not alone. Yeah. No, you're not. For some reason I've got this screw loose that's like I'm going to I'm going to effing show them all. Like I'm going to show them. It's like Joe, who? Like what are you talking about? Mom and dad. It's always mom and dad. I don't know. My mom thought I was the bee's knees since I was like Yeah. Well, you didn't make Yeah. For me, it was always like family or like or like a girl who turned me down in middle school. Ah. It's like, if she could only if she could only see me now. It's like, she doesn't care you made a game. What's wrong with you? Nerd. You're still a nerd. You're still a freaking nerd. I don't care how much money you made.

Um so, anyhow, I I was saving money. I When I quit my job at Sucker Punch, I think I had about 130,000 in the bank. Um so, that's what was gave me the ability to go all those years without a job. Now, my initial plan was to spend 2 years, and if I couldn't come up with a game in 2 years, I didn't want to spend my whole farm on it. I wanted to Okay, you spent your 2 years trying to make a game. You didn't make a game. Go back and get a job, Danny. Uh well, that didn't effing happen. Not even close. Like, by the time 2 years was up, um not only had I started to rope Jaclyn in, and she was I think she quit her job about 3 years in, if I'm not mistaken. Um there was like no thought in my mind. Like, it at that point it the feeling that I had working on E-Shaid was like, if I die, just let it be after I ship E-Shaid. Like, I I seriously felt it was like my final mission in life. Like, it was so I felt like when I finished it, I felt

like I'm good to go. Like, of course now I have a baby, so I don't feel like that anymore, but at the time I finished that way at all? Do I feel that way at all now? Yeah, like what I mean what I mean is Sorry to interrupt, but for for me with my kids, I'm on my third kid. Just had my my second daughter, my third kid, a month ago. I do not care about games. It's not even in the same dimension. Like, it's totally different playing field of how I used to I enjoy making games. But like this religious experience and this integrity and this principled game development where it's like everything Mhm. it's gone. And I it for me it's for the better. Cuz it's not it's not a healthy frame of mind. I see. Um I love making games. It's very very fun and my ideas are just as good. I just don't like it's not like this god that it is always in front of me. You

know what I mean? understand. Yeah, I get So, I'm curious how you feel with kids now. I think I guess I I don't know. I don't I don't want to sound like a monster. Um I I can't imagine going back to like not having my son. Like, it I would never I mean, it's such a special thing. Like, I could never imagine my life without him. But sometimes I do miss the just the like total immersion that I used to be able to have Oh, yeah. with working. And I do kind of get sort of starry-eyed about about making games. I guess I have a little of it. It's possible, you know, since I I only have one and he's only 11 months old. Possible I'm I'm like on the ramp off right now to like a more No, well well-adjusted normally. Yeah, none of us are wrong or right. I'll say with my first kid, with my

daughter, the transition I can't I dude, I told myself, I said, "Thomas, you're not going to let your kids become your identity. You're still going to be Thomas." That's funny. I told myself the same thing. Of course you did because you saw all these other friends of yours becoming horrible people when they had kids. No. No. No. No. No. No. That didn't happen. Well, I saw it happen. And and I told myself I would never do that. And it slowly when you just the more kids you start bringing into your arms, the more you're like I just want to make I want to I you kind of want to make games for them. Mhm. You know, it's not for you anymore. Now, they make games for them like so like so that you can be financially stable or like that they want to All of the above. Okay. I'm worried my kid's not going to give a crap about any game I make. They're just going to want to play whatever the cool new game is at the like they're just going to play Fortnite or something. Dude, your son it's a your son, right?

11 months old? When he walks in when he's 3 years old and he walks into your office and you're making Songs of Glimmerwick 4 he's going to say he's going to say, "Daddy, show me songs. Show me song." No. "Daddy, show me Show me Glimmerwick. Show me Glimmerwick." And you're going to sit him on your lap and he's going to he's going to say he's going to say, um "Make the boat green." No way. Really? This sounds horrible. make the trees red, Daddy. And then suddenly you're going to dedicate that game to him. Um I'm dead serious. Um assuming you're a good person. If you're not No, I'm kidding. And incorrect assumption. Anyway, so all that said, you know, you you mentioned that you you you you do miss that feeling of being this this uh this hobbit. Yeah. And and you're just writing your your book like Bilbo. You miss that feeling of making

Pretentious artist. Yeah. I wouldn't call it pretension. It's it's this cozy world that's yours and it's safe. You mentioned in in Songs of Eashade you wanted to make something that was safe. And I want to ask you and you mentioned this in your in your video, I watched it. Why did you want to make something safe? Well, I just felt like uh both both Jaclyn and I really really like Elder Scrolls and the thing we like about Elder Scrolls are the moments where you're not fighting and where you just feel like yeah, that the word cozy is so tired now. I I actually hate even to use it. It's like it's been hijacked into like every single like every single game. Um I I guess like 5 years ago I would have said, you know, coziness is something that it's it's a it's an emotion that games are really great at evoking and I we

just wanted to make a game dedicated to it. I guess. Do you not did did you not feel safe when you were making this game? Uh I I don't know. I Yeah, I I felt like um I did feel scared a little bit. Um but no, I don't I don't think I felt particularly safe or unsafe necessarily. Okay. Um especially cuz I didn't have I I just knew that, you know, we didn't have kids yet or anything. I just knew that everything was going to be okay even if the game failed. Yeah. Um Yeah. And we also didn't assume going to fail just because like our wish list numbers and stuff um were pointing to, okay, it's going to make some money. Like it's going to it's going to do, you know, we had a certain minimum threshold or our minimum window that we thought that the game was going to make and and that was fine for us. Okay. Okay. So, going back to your story, you had a hundred some thousand dollars in the bank, which sounds crazy

to people. Everyone should know that once you get to $100,000, it $100,000 doesn't seem This sounds so wrong, but it doesn't seem like a lot of money once you get there. No, not if you live in the West. Like, yeah, not if you live in the United States. That's true. Seriously, and especially now. I mean, it's it was more back then than it is now. But, yeah, I mean, to to make it We made it 4 years before we moved in with my grandma at the end. Wow. Wow. so, and we were, you know, so fortunate that we had It wasn't like dire like we were we were going to be out of house and home. It wasn't like that. It was more like hey, you know, grandma offered, you know, her spare bedroom. Like, that's a great way to save money. Like, we're it's looking pretty tight here. Um like, we would have been fine. There there would have been options, but Right. Um so, you know, basically, we made it 4 years on probably more than 130,000 because Jacqueline quit and she had her savings as well.

Okay. but, it was tight, you know, especially living in in the area we live, which is extremely expensive. And then, we also had paid for a little bit of contracting. I should probably point out like, if anyone watches the the E Shade postmortem video, um it seemed like a lot of people in the comments felt like like, since we named like a PR firm and a porting house, they're assuming that like the game must have cost like 3 million to make or something like that. Mhm. Um but, these things are pretty short-term contracts and uh a lot of the money was actually spent after the game. Like, we didn't port We didn't have a simultaneous launch, so we were able to pay for the porting with our first paychecks from Steam. Yeah. Um so, it was a relatively small amount of money we spent on contracting. The vast majority was just Jacqueline and I living for 4 years in in the sultanic Western country of the United States. That is such an interesting adjective. Wow. Uh sometimes I wish we lived in Poland or something. I feel like game dev would be a little bit easier, but

Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's actually some uh I think Feardemic is in Poland. One of the publishers that they're they're a friend of mine. Listen, the the I I I think I love trying to ground the audience into a different frame of thinking. Because they're hearing you right now and they're saying I read a comment on your video. And I wonder if I'm not going to call out the person. And if you don't want us to talk about this we can cut it from the final edit, but it said "So you're saying the secret to making indie games is to last 5 years and have a genius designer wife. Got it." That was the top upvoted one of the top upvoted comments. Mhm, yeah, I think that's the I think that's the top one. I can't tell whether it's tongue-in-cheek. I can't tell whether it's completely negative. But I read this comment and I'm like that is not fair at all. Because Danny has backbone. And and and 99% of game devs don't.

And I get angry cuz I'm like if if people would just like you have this drive and you said it doesn't make any sense. It's a chip on your shoulder. Mhm. And it pushed you through those 5 years. And maybe you were born with it, but for some reason you've got the work ethic and you've got the discipline. And comments like this they don't understand that that's what got you where you are, not your genius wife. She helped. Right? I'm sure she did, but you didn't just sit like I mean it's it's just I don't know. Does that frustrate you? So with YouTube comments I have an interesting relationship with them because I do think a lot of people are joking and they they just sort of say things and they don't really understand. Well, there are so many mean comments that you start seeing red everywhere. Like you start wondering everything is a mean comment. And yeah, that one could totally be read as like

just a really dismissive mean comment, or they were just trying to make a joke. I think that one maybe was trying to make a joke, um but I've had enough comments that were like sort of like that in a way, but not trying to make a joke. They were definitely trying to be negative. Um Well, what's your response to that? Uh The comment is, so your secret is the secret to last 5 years is that the secret is to last 5 years. So, what they're saying is have a bunch of money. Right. Right. a genius designer wife. Yeah. Got it. What do you What do you say to the people listening who don't have that? Do you agree with that comment? Assuming a a negative interpretation of the comment, I think if we're going to talk about what the secret is, um yeah, it's it's not as if if I give someone $130,000, they're going to be able to make an e-shade. And if that were true, then obviously I mean, everyone would

basically have a money tree, right? Cuz if you could if anyone could turn 130 grand into, you know, 2 and 1/2 mil or whatever, then it would be, you know, publishers would be able to make like 20 e-shades a year or something. So, there's there's something there. Um you know, I I think people people often underestimate, and I don't know why this is, people underestimate or they don't want to acknowledge like skill and experience as a factor. And especially with regards to indie games, like everyone's like, "Oh my god, you know, making an indie game is so risky. It's such a dice roll." It's like, well, it's it's not a goddamn game of poker. Like, it's not like, you know, you just like shuffle up the deck and pull out your hand and let's see how good your game is. You know, it's not like that. If you if you have, you know, drawing skills in certain things and you leverage them and you, you know, you you uh you do some market research and you make a game that you you have a reasonably good chance that a lot of people are will like and

you play to your strengths then, you know, it you can make some money in this industry. And yeah, certainly I don't think Yeah, I I guess I should I should stop there. Well, I won't stop there because I'm not going to talk about the comment anymore, but what I'm am going to talk about is to make a game that makes 3 and 1/2 million or whatever the gross was and then I think the net was something like 2.5. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Um to do that with 150 grand is crazy. That is very difficult. Yeah, like I don't know what the numbers are for my game Twisted Tower, but it's somewhere around half a million. Um or more. I don't know what it is in terms of the the the expense. Oh, got you. Got you. Okay. No, so it's not nice. That's bad. Um it's very expensive to make big, you know, borderline double A shooters. Uh-huh. I I can imagine. what you accomplished is more than just hey, I've got money. Hey, I've got a

talented wife. What you did was first off, to to to even be like the willpower to save all that money and to live like a bachelor. Um or you said it like a college student. Mhm. Mhm. To to do that, that in and of itself is half of the what's impressive about this whole thing. You saved up all that money and and lived a very um simplistic life, it seems. Yeah, a little bit like accomplish your dream. Yeah. Okay, so this 5-year period, you said it was a 5 years of making this game? Uh yeah, that's right. Okay. This 5-year period, can you talk to me about the production side? Um technically how it was made cuz what we just discussed is the emotional side of of how you how you had the willpower and and what you did with your schedule and your lifestyle, right? And that's a big question a lot of indie game developers or aspiring game developers have is how

do I power through the emotional side? But now the question is what was the production side like? I'm talking engine, code, assets. So, we used Unity, yeah? We used Unity. By the way, I'm watching the trailer and it's like I wouldn't compare it to AIR in the sense of the quality, but you know how AIR you can just tell. Uh-huh. There's something about Unity and I I think it's the lighting cuz I use Unity, too, and I saw the the lighting and I was like, "That's Unity." Interesting. And I I even Dude, you did amazing work. It's just Unity's lighting has this weird look. Interesting. So, do you know what I'm talking about or no? Am I insulting you? No, I I mean, I think Unity's spec model is really good. Um I don't I don't exactly know what it is. I don't know if I could tell. I think the only reason why I could tell what engine a game uses is

just like oh, this I can like I probably can guess what kind of production budget this game had and based on how these shaders look, I'm pretty sure they didn't have a tech artist and um it's unlikely they used anything Unreal for this. Right. And E-Shae's case, I I wrote most of the shaders, not from scratch. I still used the Unity spec model. Yeah. But like, yeah, I I think it's it's kind of what, you know, what comes out of the box. Was this URP or was it was it built-in render pipeline? It was a built-in. It was the old old days, yeah. You URP didn't Okay, maybe maybe that's why I could tell. I It It sounds like I'm insulting you. I'm not. It looks It looks amazing. There's something about the shadows. It's something about the shadows in in in Unity's lighting. You can just That is something. The shadows do have a particular look, yeah. Maybe that's Mainly that they're they're awful. That's part of it. Compared to Unreal anyway, um it's hard to get good shadows, for sure. Can we discuss Unity versus Unreal? Do

you have any um Do you have any insights or opinions about Unreal? Yeah. I mean, who doesn't, right? Why not? Why did you not choose Unreal? I I have used Oh, well, Unreal UDK, it was called, in in the past, in the days of yore. Wow. Um I started messing around with Unity on paper at the time, nobody had really made anything super beautiful with Unity yet, at least as far as I can remember. But on paper, I was looking at all the graphics features, and I was like as an environment artist in AAA games, I was like, this is I mean, I could make something look absolutely but like this this is everything I need, you know? I could make AAA looking stuff with this. Uh you know, it's just talking about, oh, it's got screen space ambient screen space ambient occlusion. It has an offline GI, you know, light mapper. It's got all the Oh, you can use a a second UV channel. Okay, I could work with that. Oh, you it has a like a, you know, a high-level shader language. I could do anything I want. So, when I looked at

all those things, I knew I could make something beautiful, and then after trying it for a few months, um it was like, yeah, this The reason that everyone thinks that Unity doesn't look as good as Unreal is because uh that really know All the great artists go to Unreal because they think that Unity doesn't look as good. And Right. That's That's not especially now, like I I do think that Unreal comes with some really nice things out of the box that Unity doesn't. The reason I stuck with Unity was cuz I really liked how Unity is a blank slate. Unity doesn't really make assumptions about the what your game is going to be. I remember in Unreal, the way to like create an interaction system, at least in the UDK days, was literally to shoot an invisible bullet at something and like get the callback for what you hit. Um so, it was clearly just a shooter, right? Compare that to Unity, which doesn't even actually have a concept of a player when you first you start it, you know? Like, it doesn't

make any assumptions and I really like that blank slate and that's why I and It almost assumes that it's you're not even making a game cuz everything's called like it's like even things called a scene or a pre-something. Very generic, yeah, very generic. Unreal, you've got actors, right? And I believe they call them levels, not scenes. I could be wrong. But um I just I find it I find it what you're saying to be fascinating because it's totally true. The in that that that framework, that way of thinking, dude, that is the OG framework. Like, it's like back in the Flash days, Flash was you make games and you make animations. So, we'll give you a white screen. That's what you start with. You know? And when I'm when I was deciding what I wanted to move away from when Flash died or when Steve Jobs killed Flash, I decided, okay, I need to go with whatever has a similar framework. And Unity had that similar framework. In fact, I think that they built that framework to compete with Flash's framework. Uh that I could be wrong there. I could

be wrong there, but whole point being that seems advantageous to you, right? It's like, oh, good, it assumes nothing. But for a new generation of game developers, I can think of Gavin, the creator of Choo Choo Charles. He's a good buddy of mine and actually his podcast is right before this one. Um he his way of thinking is fully Unreal. He's in the Unreal world where it's it's things are sort of built for you. Um and there's frameworks that are built ready to go out of the box. Um which actually I think is a more logical way of making games, especially if there's multiple templates you could use and start with. You're saying that like on Unreal is the more logical way of making games? I would say it's more logical for I believe it's more economical um on the front end, but when you want to port to console and when you want to make something that is performant, uh Unreal, in my opinion, I mean, all the stuff, all the stuff, like

Megascans, um uh the the uh the um real-time real-time global illumination, um this stuff is is very heavy and um I think it's going to cause the Nintendo Switch to catch fire. Whereas Unity Unity is built for for porting. I mean, that's what it's an original the original impetus of the entire engine was to Well, that's why they called it Unity cuz it unifies all the different platforms. Mhm. Yeah, for sure. So, that said, for me, Unreal is logical on the front end cuz it's like, "Yay, let's let's make a shooter and let's get it done. Let's let's have all the basic elements made out of the box with the templates." But, the problem is is if you want to then extend that and create a full-fledged game that's available on all consoles. This is why a lot of publishers I talk to, they always say, "Hey, if your game is Unreal, we're we're potentially less likely to sign it than

if it's Unity." I've been told this. Interesting. That is really uh I did not know that at all. Huh. So, I could my my my sort of the way I think about it is Unreal's great when you want to get going and just get going right out of the box, but Unity's better. It's a This sounds so backwards, but I think it's a better engine long-term. Um despite the fact that they do their they they scared us with their real-time or their run time fees. All right, yeah. Yeah, I your What are your thoughts on that? Well, it certainly got me to download Godot and poke around in it for a little bit. I mean, not that we would ever change mid I mean, if Unity want They They could basically do whatever they want to us for this game. I mean, there's no way we could ever change mid production cycle. Yeah. But, we're we're definitely going to be trying messing around with Godot next um for our next game. Godot kind of has a similar thing going for it that Unity did back when when I first started Esha like on

paper like it there hasn't been very much beautiful stuff that has been made with Godot yet, but what as as an artist I look at the graphics features and I'm like, yeah, I I could I could knock people's socks off with it. I can make a game that people it would be like the best thing that's ever been made in Godot like visually. I feel like I could do that in like a month. Um so, I I definitely think it's worth a try. Right. Cuz just the uh it really isn't the the cost of the engine, although the cost is incredibly significant. Everyone's like, "Oh, well, you only pay once you make a million." It's like, "Okay, well, I I am going to make a million." And you pay the really expensive Oh, yeah. Arrogant bastard. I'm kidding. I have like I have like the opposite of imposter syndrome where I think everyone else is an imposter and I'm just like an arrogant ass. It's I think Can we call it arrogant ass syndrome? Anyhow, Well, that's great. I wish I had that. No, it's No. it's

It's good to be humble, Thomas. Good. I I How could you be, dude? Esha you you just killed it. I mean, it did so well. So, I don't blame you. And I think Songs of Songs of Glimmerwick is definitely going to going to do well. It's It's looking really really cool. It's got 100,000 wish list right now, which is Yeah. Oh, well more I mean, wish list were different back in the day. I mean, Eeshid only shipped with 28,000 wish list. Um so, we're certainly doing better than that, but I think Eeshid vastly outperformed its initial like wish list pre-launch Uh-huh. numbers. Um so, I'm certainly not expecting the same Burkett ratio, as it were. For folks who don't know what a Burkett ratio is, this uh Jake Burkett, which is a a kind of a a long-time figure in the indie game world. Uh he came up with this correlation stat of wish list to week one sales, and it's it's not a conversion rate, so it's not like how many people wish listed your game that end up buying your game. It's simply how

many people buy your game compared to how many people wish listed your game. And that number has been going down over the years. I think it's I think we're at like 0.2 or something. Oh, interesting. Um I think it used to be more like 0.4. Okay, so can you run the numbers for us here? If you have 100,000 wish list, what's the equation? Oh, it should be like uh 20,000 units in the first week. Okay, which is I don't know what we're going to price the game at, but if if we s- let's say our net post-platform take home, let's just say it's going to be like $13 a unit. Mhm. Uh it's going to be $260,000 in the first week. Yep. The first week is probably um it's you know, we'll just do times three, and that'll give us our first year, and then we could do times three again, and that'll give us our lifetime. I used to do times two for that last number, like that your first year was half your sales. I found that not to be true. Yeah. It seems like it's a little more linear than that. So, that puts us at about Yeah, and that's the that's the take

home, the pre-tax take home. So, So, it looks like it's going to do almost identical to Eeshid. At 100,000 wish list, but the thing is we have not done a Next Fest yet. Next Fest is how you get wish lists. It's like there's there's two metrics. There's your wish list count pre-launch, and your wish list count pre-launch post Next Fest. Like the Next Fest is really really really big, and I expect that I'll be sad if we get less than 10,000 wish list. I'm expecting to get 20,000, 30,000, 40,000. I could even conceive of getting 50,000 just because our game is a effing banger. Like I think that when people play it, they're going to lose their minds. I really do. I think that Glimmer Wick is way better than East Shade. And when people play it, I think that like everyone who's played it so far has been like gen I I think and I don't think they're blowing smoke. They seem like to really really enjoy it, so. Well, okay. So, what's how does how does I want to talk about Glimmer Wick's

hook, but but hang tight. Let's talk about this wish list thing because I want people to understand how they can replicate this. Uh when it comes to number one, how did you get to 100,000? And then number two, talk me through Steam Next Fest and how you can do that. So, 100,000 is we have a really high organic wish list number. Like we get around 100 wish list ads a day from doing literally nothing. Like that is just Steam internal traffic. I don't know how much of that has been propped up by like the beats we've made in the past that have sort of accelerated us in the algorithm. I expect very little. I think that the algorithm is mostly velocity driven. At least that's what Valve says. And it certainly appears to be true. I don't I think that the reason why we get 100 organic wish list ads a day is cuz Steam just gives us a little traffic, and a certain percentage of the people that are seeing the game are wish listing the game, and it's just higher than a lot of other stuff that Steam is

showing people. Thus, we get pretty high amount of internal wish list. It really is that simple. It's not like like it's not like we like made nice with with like the Valve man or something. I don't know. It's just literally people are seeing the game and they're wish listing it. How are they seeing the game? Um well, right now, just speaking about organic wish list, um it's just Steam internal traffic. They see it from upcoming list, the discovery queue, um just the I don't know where what other lists our capsule is showing up in. Um I of course a certain percentage of those are just like trickling in from other sources. So, that's the first thing is just the organic wish list ads are really high on Steam because I think it's doing pretty well as far as the upcoming algorithm go goes. Um then the other thing is that our when we first announced the game, I think we got off to a pretty good start. Our um our PR firm, which is called Player Two PR, who's headed by uh Charlene Lebron,

she had the idea of uh pitching our entire announcement. So, our trailer, um you know, our the first screenshots that nobody even knew what we were working on. Giving the entire announcement to a journalist that worked at IGN, who E Shay was her favorite game of 2019. So, Charlene just had the sort of like landscape knowledge to know like, "Hey, this journalist works at IGN now. She really liked your game." Like that's that's that alone was made it worth the PR firm for us, just the idea to do that cuz I I have no idea where people are I don't even keep track of where journalists are, you know, working and stuff. speak to that if if you don't mind. I want to give the audience I want to give my perspective because a lot of people listening, right when you said PR firm, I thought, "I want to I want to bring it back to reality because a lot of people get that scares them and they think, 'Oh, that's not me. I can't do that. Um you know, E Shay is is a is this big

corporation now.'" Mhm, right. Or we had one for E Shay, too, but people just assume like, "Oh, Ishay, were just like a basically trust fund baby, right? You were a trust fund baby." That's why it was like millions to do that. So, I want to I want to sort of basically bring my strategy cuz I had a publisher, right? And I won't speak to which publisher it was. It's not my current. My current publisher, 3D Realms, is doing great. But, my previous one of my previous publishers On Pinstripe or or I can't I don't want to say. Okay. Not Okay. One of them didn't they weren't doing the legwork I wanted one of them to do when it came to PR. And when it came to getting press, okay? So, instead of me relying on them to do what you guys did, which is will get a really good PR firm and spend the money. I didn't rely on that. I just said, "You know what? I'm going to do this on my own." And so, my strategy, and it I want I want my audience to know that they can do this, too, is to This especially helps if you have

a previous game that has any kind of coverage. So, for me, I will go on Metacritic. And number one, I will look for people who've written articles about my own games. And then I'll just reach out to them. That's a huge one. But, if you don't have a game that you've already released, and you want press coverage, what you do is you find games that are very very similar to yours on Metacritic. Look for the reviews. Just go to like let's say like a What's a game that someone is Songs of Glimmerwick, do you know? Oh, yeah, like uh I don't know. I mean, you could start with Stardew. Yeah, sure. Find Stardew. Find Go to Stardew and go and find every single article that has positive coverage. Don't find the negative ones. Positive coverage. And get a email list of 100 people, minimum. Email addresses of 100 people who've written articles about Stardew. And all you do is you hit them with an email saying, "I made a game like Stardew.

Here's the trailer." Yeah, this is great advice for sure, for sure. And and look, 95% of those people aren't going to respond. But 5% will. Who is it? Oh, Kotaku just emailed me back. What? PC Gamer just emailed me back. What? This has happened so many times. I got Time magazine to do this. With the same the same freaking strategy. Which is you find people who like certain games. Now, the question is, well, they're not with Kotaku anymore cuz these press people, they jump from place to place. Mhm. They're cuz a lot of them are freelance. Right. And so, what you do is you find their Twitter or their X account. And you'll you'll find that they all have typically they have their own blog site. And you email them through that, not their IGN account or whatever. Mhm. So, tip. that's really probably what your PR agency does, one of the things they do. That's exactly Yeah, that is That is one of the biggest things they do for sure. Yeah. And so, people could do that themselves, but anyway, I digress.

No, that that's a really good tip. Um and speaking to what you were mentioning before, like people get scared. They hear PR firm. Oh my god, that's like millions. It's like, no, it's not It's not millions. It's it They're short-term contracts. They're not They're not working with you on your game like for years on end throughout your entire development. You're usually hiring them for your big beats. Um usually you're hiring them for maybe your announcements, maybe your release date announcements, and maybe your uh your actual release. Or, you know, if you're if you're tighter on budget, you could just do actual release. Um what I'll say about hiring a PR firm, this is really counterintuitive, but I think that the bigger your game is, the more a PR firm can help you. I know that sounds really silly cuz a lot of people feel like, well, why would I hire a PR firm if my game is already big? It's like It's it seems like that's kind of a you know, you a PR firm is what you want to hire to make your game big, but unfortunately, that's not really how it works. I mean,

your game has a certain has a certain like potential. Um it has a certain like amount of lift that it's naturally going to have just based on the production that it is, the genre that it is, um and and your brand equity going in and everything. And the bigger your game is going to be, trust me, the more all of this like PR stuff, social media stuff, uh key distribution, just all the things that go into into all of your your beats, the more they're going to suck away from your actual development. So, because there could just going to be so much more to do, like the bigger your game is, the more press inquiries you get, the more keys you're distributing, all this stuff. Um so, that's why I say that the bigger your game, the more organic lift your game already has, the more valuable a a PR firm becomes. Cuz if your game looks completely unremarkable and average, it doesn't matter what PR firm you hire or how much you pay them. They can't force people to care about your game. Yes. Um they Yeah, like they can't

unfortunately, they don't have like mind control or anything. So, you know, it's just one of those things where if if you have the organic lift, a PR firm can be pretty helpful, and I've seen them for as cheap as like two grand. I don't know if I'd trust one that would do uh a task which I think is bigger than two grand. Uh you know, they more average cost I've seen around would would be something more like five to seven or something. Probably going up now with inflation and everything. say 10. I I've I've had PR firms in the past. I would say 10. And if you want if you want decent Like if you want if you want them to work for you and actually care, probably 10. But, you know, it is about that initial I think dude, I think of Songs of Glimmerwick and and E-Shade, I think of it as this beautiful garden or this beautiful field of corn that you've harvested. And so, the question is where did that come from? It well goes all the way down to the seed. What was the I'm sure I love studying why certain

games blow up and certain don't. It's so exciting to me because I'm looking at Songs of Glimmerwick and I'm going, "What is the seed here? What is the hook?" And I I see your I see your first sentence here and it says, "Become immersed in a musical woodland fantasy where people cast spells where it's as easy as where it casting a spell is as easy as playing a song. So essentially, correct me if I'm wrong here, your hook is Stardew Valley but with music. I think you could call it that and I think that you actually probably would have even just glancing at our Steam page, you probably have a better idea of our hook than we do even. I mean, we like to believe we could sort of understand how our game presents. But it, you know, sometimes it's it's hard to really know. But if if that's what you feel like the hook is looking at our Steam page, I'd say that's a good It's very similar to E-Shade in your hook your hook generation or your ideation process in my opinion, it's the you your

this is sort of a a repetition because E-Shade it's not about music, it's about painting. Mhm. I'm I'm glad I'm glad you see it that way. I am. I I believe that as well. I think that our strength as a studio is making a place. Um as far as your philosophy, the trinity hook, which I think is a beautiful like framework for thinking about hooks. Um I'm sure people know what the trinity hook is if you're there watching your channel, but it's I don't think they do. story story mechanic It's a story hook, mechanical hook, and uh is it a visual hook is the third one? Yep. Yep. Um You can also make that auditory as well. I mean, you can combine them into sort of a sensory hook. Yeah. Okay, yeah. That that makes sense. Visual audio visual hook, yeah, for sure. Um I don't think our games have I don't know. Do they even have a mechanical hook? Sometimes I think that this is not one of our strong suits. Um, I guess I guess we always have some kind of weird thing like painting is is sort of novel, I guess. Um, anyhow, I do think that the

strength of our games is it's a it's a setting and people hopefully when they see it they immediately want to go there and they want to spend time there. Mhm. And our design pillars are all they all serve the sense of place. If there's a mechanic in there that doesn't serve the sense of place we don't have it. It's one of the reason why our games don't have combat because like Skyrim is a game with a very strong sense of place. But it's also a place where 98% of the creatures or people you encounter are trying to murder you. So, sometimes it feels almost more like an arena than like a fantasy world. Yeah. And since that mechanic, while it's a great mechanic and it makes a great game and I'm not crapping on Skyrim and I'm not certainly not saying our games are as good as Skyrim or anything like that. Yeah. One has to admit that the that sometimes the the killing arena does get in the way a little bit of um, of sense of place. Anyhow, that's my rant. You know, sense of place, let's break this down.

What is sense of place? Is it mechanical? Is it story? Is it visual? I think that in order to have a good sense of place, I think all those things have to serve the sense of place. I When I think of sense of place at at its heart what it is is like almost the feeling of travel, the feeling that you're somewhere new and you're soaking it all in. And I think especially folks who have traveled will know this feeling like you walk around a new city like Munich or something and you just get this vibe. And it's everything. It's the people walking by you, it's the sounds you're hearing, it's the smells. Um, and of course the things you're you're seeing, the buildings and the sense of culture and things like that. Yeah. And and building that, of course, is is hard and you need, you know, you it requires good art direction, it requires good, you know, good audio, it requires probably a good soundtrack if your game has a soundtrack, and ideally, if you prioritize the sense of place, your mechanics will also

Yeah. help or at least not get in the way of the sense of place because a game like, let's say a multiplayer shooter like, I don't know, uh PUBG or something, what, take your pick. It's pretty hard to have a sense of place when the game is so like what you're doing in the game, the verbs of the game, they're so strong, they're just completely dominating the show, it almost doesn't really matter where you are. It's all an arena anyway. Uh that's again, not knocking it, it's just a different priority, I guess, for for our games. You can knock it, it's fine. No, no, no, I don't want to. I know. I I'm not a huge fan of those kind of games, but Yeah, I certainly don't play them, um but I I understand, you know, I think I understand why people like them, and it's it's great that all different games, you know, can have different design priorities and appeal appeal to different people. there's something here. It's so special because it's kind of like would you tell Alfred Hitchcock or would you tell Quentin Tarantino

that they need a hook for their movies? Mhm. No. question, yeah. I don't think I No studio would be like, "What's the hook?" Oh, yeah, I know. He'd be like, "What the Are you Who are you Who do you think you're talking to?" Yeah, the hook is Tarantino, right? equity, yeah. That's 100% true. And so, when I look at Songs of Glimmerwick or Esha Day, I go, "It's Esha Day, it's not the like that's your hook. Your hook is like we have a a a kind of game that has a just it just feels it feels like an Esha Day game. It has a sense of place. You think so? I feel like we don't have any brand equity. Or at least No, it's not brand equity. It's like It's that It's talent, okay? It's as simple as talent. It because I think about a lot of game developers who I would say 95% of game developers listening right now, they need a freaking hook. Because Yeah. they don't have the They haven't harnessed their voice yet.

Dude, you were born with a voice. Thomas, I How am I going to fit out this door? You're saying so many nice things to me. I think my head's going to get stuck. I That's right. You walked into this conversation with hubris. I forgot. Um I've already got enough No, I'm kidding. Keep it coming, man. It's Keep it coming? No, I'm not I'm just kidding. It's trying What I I I struggle with this because because I got I You know, I have a lot of students who like take my courses and stuff, so I like I make games and then I also teach people. And I struggle because I'm like I want to give you a framework. I want to give people a framework and say you need a hook. And and you need you need you need what I call the big butt principle, which is you need to find a genre and then twist it. Because it's a it's a much better way to market a game. Like you could say like Thomas the Tank Engine, but he's a spider. Right, right. you know, that is a great framework, but certain developers like Danny, they don't need a framework because they have a voice. Stephen King doesn't need a framework

cuz he has a voice. The voice The voice The voice always wins. Um That's a really interesting. I've never thought about it like that. I mean, I certainly try to make I don't know. I don't prioritize the hook, but we we try to make a hook. At least I I would say there's a hook, but like it it's not First off, there's there's The reason you you you to do a visual hook in a in a in a mechanical hook and a story hook is not because you have to have all three. You should try to have all three. The same reason why I'm going to invest in Adobe, O'Reilly Auto Parts, and Walmart because one of them can do well. Oh, I see. You could diversify. Got you. You want to diversify. The same is true with with hook generation. It's like a lot of people are like, "Well, I'll just have a really cool visual hook." And it's like, "Well, what if it's not cool?

What if you just think it is?" Interesting. Interesting. when I look at when I look at your games, like let's talk about East Shade. If I break it apart and I and I see this gorgeous cornfield of harvest and you made plenty of money, what was the seed? What made it work? It was the the visuals reminding like the camera zooming in and it's that awkward like uncanny valley conversation with a NPC. Oh, yeah. Sorry about that. It Elder Scrolls. No, I mean I'm I'm mainly thinking about I'm I'm mainly thinking about Elder Scrolls, right? Yeah, no, we definitely have some of that going. And so, you you you're capitalizing on the Elder Scrolls visuals. And so, all automatically people are like, "Ooh, it's got Elder Scrolls vibes." So, you've got the visual hook. Then all of a sudden, "What? I can take pictures and it turns into paintings?" You've got the mechanical hook. And from from I don't know what the story is, but it seems like people just lapped that up. They loved the story. So, you had all three in that game.

Um but I love what you're saying and sort of counteracting like, "Well, sense of place is actually I don't Here's the thing, dude. Sense of A hook is a marketing term, not a gaming term. That's true. Yeah. So, Songs of Glimmerwick, it might be all about sense of place, but not in the marketing. Or is it? No, it it it I don't think it can. I mean, it's hard We try, you know, I think when you watch the trailer, it's like I would say our trailers tend to be less action-packed. We try to give you a little taste of like the tone, I guess. Mhm. Um but but it is really hard. Was the goal to create that sense of place in the trailer? Yeah, we we tried. We also wanted to to create uh like a a little bit of of a sense that this is a this is a place full of small narratives and um you know, like an authored hand and and strong tone. Yeah, we tried to to make a sense of place. I guess uh I mean, even the way we made that

trailer, we actually scripted out the shots that we thought would work. And then we actually made the shots. Like we didn't just like this is our game, we're going to record different cool stuff. It was literally I we made actual entire quest because we thought moments in that quest would show well in the trailer. Um it's kind of like backwards trailer design. Nope. No. No, that's that's how it should be, you're saying. I'm so excited you said this. I just had a I just had a podcast with Gavin, the creator of Choo-Choo Charles. I watched it, yeah. And he made this new game called Cuff Bust, right? Okay, new podcast, never mind. Right? that we have a new one coming out. And so it's it's just before yours, okay? Got you. And he he did the same thing you did. He was like, "Yeah, this is how we did the trailer." And it's like not you know, it's it's it's it's not the right way to do a trailer. And I'm like "No, no, no, that's the right way to do a trailer." Uh-huh. The wrong The wrong way to do a trailer is just record the game and then try and

make it work. Yes, for sure. For sure. it won't go viral. You can't tell stories that way. important. Right, that's right. Yes. Yes. I have two things to say about Gavin specifically. Uh-huh. Um it's really funny Oh, no, it's not an it's no oh. It's only love. Um it's really funny that he mentioned that that's the wrong way. Maybe he's just being humble. I mean, I I I way he mentioned it, it was like it was like a he was he was like he actually mentioned it like it was it was just some side note. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you you pre- you you you do a script. Okay. So, it's it's like nothing to like he just intuitively to him. Yeah. Yeah. So, Gavin is is I the the advice I always give to people who want to go full-time indie I the like the way I look at it is like full-time indie means you want to be a project lead. If you want to be a project lead, you really, really, really fundamentally have to be you have to build a skill, at least one. You you have to be an industry-level something.

In my in in my opinion, that's that's how most successful studios are founded. They're usually founded and I don't know if this is the case for you, Thomas, but I think typically studios are founded by someone with prior production experience. So, I always say like focus on a skill, become a really good artist or a really good coder. Uh those are the skills I I say just because those are like boots on the ground, most of production work. Um and then you have people like Gavin who come along and basically learn everything at once and have like I call it like an everything eye. Like basically an eye for You actually kind of have an everything eye as well, Thomas. Just like an eye for for all these different things that usually are their own skills. Like graphic design, you know, your Steam capsule, your marketing copy, your your trailer, you know, your the editing of your trailer, your the obviously the visuals in your game, and then like you even do your own soundtracks and things like that. Gavin has kind of one of these everything eyes and is tremendously talented. And it's sort of like it's sort of like fly- like flies in the face of of my advice, like hone one

skill to a really high level and then think about being a project lead. Cuz then you got people who just, you know, come and kind of do everything and Yeah. it's like well, not everyone's that talented. No. And I think that it's okay to not be like you know, it's it's okay to not be as talented as Gavin. You can still make your way, but it's going to be pretty hard to do it the way that he does it. He just has this intuitive sense of pretty much all things which is extremely helpful when you're trying to make a product that is good in a lot of ways. Right. The second thing I'll say about Gavin and this one I just have to say it's going to be kind of boring, but I I'm so passionate about saying it. He mentioned in when Choo Choo Charles that he modeled the train called it backwards. You guys were talking about doing things the wrong way, right? That there's not always one right way to do things and he mentioned that he made the texture first and then unwrapped to the texture. Yeah. I just I have to say this because it's like it's it's a pet peeve of mine because

so many students think that you make the model and then make the UV unwrap and then make the texture to the UV unwrap. Basically, I'd say 90% of the stuff in a game environment environment artists will make them backwards or backwards as we call it. Really? unwrap to the texture. That is actually I would call that the right way to do it, not the wrong way to do it. Really? Really? Super random little aside. Would you call that Would you call that essentially flipping an asset? Wait, why is it flipping an asset? Well, you're saying you start with the mesh and then you What What he was saying Let's Let's get some clarity here. This is what Gavin said and this is what I was saying. You take the PSD or the PNG Uh-huh. and you open it in Photoshop and you color on it like wrapping paper. Oh, that's just like 3D painting. I I was I was pretty sure he was saying that he had like different um bits on the texture that he was UV unwrapping to those bits and and putting those bit like like a a

bolt seam like a trim sheet of a bolt seam and he was he was moving UV unwrapping to that. And then I think afterwards he went and and 3D painted on it. If not, then my comment was totally just remove it from the video because it doesn't make any sense. If it was just 3D painting, that's really normal to 3D paint on a texture. Right. Right. And And so, I think your point is is that um Well, here's one thing that definitely happens. And I want people to comment below if you feel this way. You feel like you're doing it all wrong all the time. Now, you're cocky and horrible. You're just a terrible You're a terrible uh cocky person. No, I'm kidding. This is true. You You have more confidence You have more confidence though than most game devs. But do you know that feeling of like you're just putting it together and you're thinking, I've got to be doing this wrong. Well, if I'm doing something, then it means it is the right way. So, I'm kind of sort of a rubric to measure all other things. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Uh no, I totally felt like

that, especially when I starting out. I was like I was like, how How are you supposed to make a tree? Like, what is the way, you know, quote unquote, to make a tree in a video game uh of of X fidelity? It's like, there's so many ways to make a tree, and some of them are better for certain things than others. Um but, you know, there's a lot of ways to make a tree, and sometimes you can figure out a new way to make a tree, and it's actually better than than the way that anyone's done it. Now, that's not to say that the uh the sort of techniques of our forefathers, as it were, are just to be completely ignored because there are like, working in AAA, you do learn a lot of things um about like maybe it's not the right way to do it, but it's the way that like a bunch of like really technical people with a lot of experience decided that it was going to work the best. So, those things are really great just to know, just to have in your back pocket, like okay, this is kind of how we would do it, you know, on a game like Infamous Second Son. And maybe this is how we would do it in a

game like Guild Wars, where maybe the poly count's a little lower and texture memory's a little tighter and things like that. Um those things are good to know and I I do think that my experience in games has helped me with that sort of stuff, but nowadays I don't I almost never feel like I'm doing something the wrong way. Right. I feel like I kind of know the ropes well enough to know what are the trade-offs for most methods, I guess. I think so we're we're about to wrap up our third game. I say we, me and my team, working on Twisted Tower. And we I finally got into this state of mind where I could kind of make a game in my sleep, you know? And from start to finish, because like and even the scheduling of things. Like everything has has a time and a place and in terms of the production schedule. And Got you. thing is people most game developers don't know

when to do certain things. It's kind of like building a house. It's like you don't lay the carpet before the foundation. Um with game dev when you first start out you're like, I'm going to hyper polish this character art. Right. And I used to do that. Or I'm going to work on the logo today. It's like, what? Like unless you're unless you're like launching a Steam page, do not like get the prototype, you know, block it out. Do black and white, make it simple. But here's the thing that the flip side of the coin is if I want to eat a Papa John's pizza or that kind of if I want to eat like a like a a chain restaurant pizza I'll go to Papa John's or or God forbid Little Caesars, although frankly I love Little Caesars. And you're used to that flavor, right? And then you go and you get a you get a pizza from a mom and pop shop and you eat it and there's there's a funk to it. It's like, I've never had that flavor before. But then you learn to love it

and it's like something you've never had before. And that's just because this person probably figured out how to make pizza outside of the industry. Ah, I see. I see. love playing games where it's like, what? It's got like this David Lynch vibe where it's like, that was totally out of the blue. Where did This person clearly has not been in the industry. And it's And it's a feature, not a bug. It's a feature, not a mistake. And so, I just want to encourage the people listening, like when when you make games, quote-unquote, wrong, or you do things outside of what the mainstream says, that's what creates these these these games that are so unique, and they just have that special funk that seems bad at first, but it's actually wonderful. Yeah. Undertale's a great example. Undertale's like such a weird-looking game. It looks like it was made by Well, maybe Toby Fox is crazy, you know? It looks like it was made by a crazy person. But it's awesome. It's awesome, you

know? Right. Yeah, for sure. I I know what you mean, and it's true. And you also don't want to be paralyzed by wondering if you're doing it the right way. This is just a slow way to work, you know? Like Yep. You just forge ahead and do it. So, and and you might get the the funky flavor as as a added side effect. So it's a good thing. Yeah. You don't want it to be too funky. You don't want it to make the player sick, but you want it I want it to be you. You want it to be your voice. performance problems, right? 100%. You know what's funny? I was talking to my publisher, and I was like, guys, I'm so scared. Uh I we had a meeting. I said, I was so I'm so scared I'm going to get bad reviews for Twisted Tower. And, you know, they didn't they didn't just shrug it off cuz, you know, there's a lot of things we need to do with that game. But, what they did say was dude, the majority of bad or a lot of bad reviews are just people overlooking bugs, or the game not running at a good frame rate, you know, or it not including key binds in the options. Um That we have had all those criticisms,

yeah. Yeah, isn't that crazy? It's always It's always the things you're like, I'll do that later. Right now I need to focus on this color palette or this mood. You know? Yeah. And that's not what players are worried about. They're worried about this being cheated. You know? That's yeah, that's true. They They don't seem to comment much about There's certain things that players just don't even comment on. It's kind of interesting. We put so much energy into them. Which Which I think is good. I mean, we need to put energy into them, but anyhow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, man, this has been a great conversation. I I love I love picking your brain. You're You are a very special indie because your It's almost like you're born to do this. You can just tell by the way you talk about it and According to my YouTube comments, I'm not an indie, Thomas. Oh I Oh gosh. just like I don't know. Oh, stop it. Who said that?

I'm not indie. So many people, like at least 50 comments. Bro. Why? Because you made money? Oh, no, he made money. Well, of course he did. I It's fascinating. I I think it's There's kind of a couple brands of it. One is that because I came came from AAA, I'm not indie. Which is really funny because all my friends in AAA would very much not feel that way. Like, this dude just like basically effed off for 5 years. Like, we haven't seen him. He's like living in this, you know, studio apartment somewhere. Um and then the other brand of it is like they hear, "Oh, you hired a PR firm. Oh, you hired" They They hear like we like to like I mean, we like to give credit to everyone and so we we, you know, listed everyone in the credits or in in the in the postmortem, I mean. And like people are hearing that, "Well, you have like a localization firm? Like that you're not indie, you just hired a bunch of people." Like they just kind of come to that conclusion. I know it's really strange. I I don't even know what

to I you know, it's it's not even good to to think about them, but it does make me wonder like what do you like every game you think is indie is not indie according to this rule because like even the most indie of indies like, you know, ConcernedApe like that game had a local He didn't He doesn't speak French. He didn't localize They also had a publisher, right? So I um You know Dude, it's so frustrating. I I I actually recently hired a coach um who's going to help me with the various sort of projects that I do and the businesses I run. That's cool. Yeah, I hired him last week. He's really cool. Um I won't disclose his name. He's another YouTuber, but I hired him and one of the reasons I hired him was because he he helps reframe your thinking. Um among other things. But the reason Now, is Oh, sorry. Go ahead. You go ahead. Go ahead. What what's your

question? Oh, I was just going to ask like is does it have to just because or were you reminded of it because like do you struggle with with like just negative feedback in general? No, no, no. People who write comments like that need a reframe. They need Oh, I see what you're saying. Got you. Got you. Here's Here's what's what's frustrating, okay? So people who are hearing right now, they're hearing you say things like $100,000. They're hearing me say $500,000 for for the cost of our game. They're hearing you say million dollars for Songs of Glimmerwick. And in their brain, they're like that will never be me. It's impossible. This is so outside of my frame that it's not indie. And they they they wash their hands of it. That's not indie. That's not me. And I just want everyone to listening to go I just want you to know we've been there with you at that we I've been there where it makes no sense that how on earth could I spend 500,000?

I don't have $500,000. But what it just happens. It just you just keep pushing and you keep you come up with great idea and then you just make the game and then you look back 3 years later and you go holy crap I just spent $500,000. Where did that come from? How did this happen? It sort of just naturally happens when you work your butt off. A brick by brick. That's right. That's right. And so I don't want I don't know Go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I I was just going to I I don't know how hard I actually work, but I I guess something something is happening right. Yeah. I don't know if I work my butt off. Right. Well, I don't know if I do either anymore. But I know that It feels like I work hard less hard than I used to. get guilty about it? Like I'm not who I used to be. All every day. Every day. No, really every day I feel like I

I I wonder if I even have it in me anymore to work the way that I used to work and I kind of feel sad about it. Of course you don't. Why would you? You're getting old, dude. I don't know. I feel like I should be able to I don't know. I don't know what it is. a You've got a baby a wife and you're you're third you're 33. So of course you're going to be exhausted. I have a I have a phrase that I like to say that sounds really really sexual, but it's not. The older you get you should be paid more for your mouth than your hands. Um Oh, okay. And again, it sounds very very raunchy, but what I mean is is that just saying something is worth a thousand bucks. And It's essentially It's essentially like saying we all become consultants because and and in your consulting your own

team, you're saying, "Hey, you're you're you're so good at communicating that you say, 'Hey, I want that tree to be pink and I want that tree to be Look, actually, have you ever seen the painter Ivan Earl, blah blah blah? Reference his imagery while you're doing the artwork.' You become a consultant and all you find yourself doing is talking. This is why people who are like 50 years old find themselves in these positions where all they're doing is meetings and flying to different places and having meetings. It's because their their time is better spent speaking than it is doing. And I don't think you should feel I don't know if that's true for you. It's true for me and I don't think that that you should feel guilty about that. That's You're becoming a director. That's really what you're becoming and that's okay. I I feel like I talk I feel like my mouth is not valuable yet and I think I think that I I am so good in the trenches. I feel like I am so good at making stuff and sometimes I wonder if I'm like it's

almost like I still feel the opposite. Like is my time wasted by not I There's time for both. There There's time to to do the talking as it were and time to be in the trenches and I just sometimes I just feel like I don't have the same Any I I don't I don't agree with you at all. I I think that I think that's the dumbest thing you've ever said because I look at you I look at your YouTube video that has 1.1 million views and I say I say, "This guy just said to all these people listening that his mouth isn't worth anything. Yet he has 1 million people who probably ended up buying E Shade. We got a good sales bump from that. you did. So, don't you tell me that your mouth is invaluable. Um That's the title of this podcast. Your mouth is valuable. And I feel like I've been talking your ear off, too. So, I feel like it's a special thing. No, you haven't. This Oh my god. Anytime I have a podcast, I'm like, I

just hope they talk. Please talk. Because I don't want to cuz I've had comments I'll have comments below that people are like, "Thomas, all you did was interrupt the guest." So. Oh, and then you felt like, well, they were I was filling space, maybe. I was helping them. Cool. Well, hey, so everybody listen in, wish list songs of Limerick below. Also, purchase E Shade below. Any other shout-outs you want to do, Danny? Thank you for that, yeah. Um I I also starting sort of fledgling YouTube channel, if you want to go check out my videos there. I've got dev logs. I've got um some other game dev related topics. I've got a video on marketing and how it's probably not why your game is failing. And uh and of course our our postmortem on E Shade, as well. Would you be Danny, would you be willing to give me 6 more minutes of your time here? Dude, I would give you like 2 hours of my time. I'm really enjoying this conversation. my audience and give me an understanding of why the heck you're going to waste

your time on a YouTube channel. Go. Okay, so I think that um well, for one, I as you mentioned, I I'm getting old and uh it's either that old people they their speaking is more valuable or they just like to wag their tongues because their like ego is growing or something. I think I'm probably the latter. Uh no, but actually I think um that I I just wanted to to center on a new social media platform, and I really like that YouTube has an algorithm in a way that some of the others don't. I haven't really cracked the code of of what, you know, I'm not good at making TikToks. I don't know what the kids think is funny these days. I'm not good at being clever. I'm not good at making short tweets, you know, that are that go viral. Um what I can do is polish something to the nines and YouTube definitely rewards like I I guess like bigger productions in a

way like a 10-minute YouTube video that is just like tightly edited, you know, well thought out like that format just shines much better on YouTube than it ever could on some of these other social media platforms. So for me personally, it's a good fit. But also, and and this is probably more what what your audience might be interested in. Um it's YouTube can be pretty good for brand building. When you think about how people make money on YouTube, it's you know, a lot of people make their money from like paid sponsorships, right? And you got to wonder like okay, these big companies are willing to shell out so much money for these YouTubers who, you know, might get 10,000 views, 100,000 views, a million views, whatever. It must be worth it to them, right? But here's the really magical part is that if you have your own thing that you can be selling, you're basically can be your own sponsor for yourself and YouTube becomes much more lucrative. The fact that, you know, gosh, I think we must have gotten another 15,000 units sold or something

from E-Shade, from that one postmortem video that took me like 3 days to make. Um that can be really powerful if you're, you know, if you're selling your own products. I know, Thomas, you do a a fantastic job with this. Also, your your courses and your information is super duper good. You're definitely one of the best game dev gurus around. guilty about it every day. Why though? I You shouldn't. You shouldn't. to sell publicly on YouTube like hey, this is on sale for 50% off." bur bur. And people would get frustrated cuz they'd like, "Well, this is the point of the YouTube video, so I'm clicking off." And I understand that. I do. I You know, when I when I watch some videos and people promote their products, I'm like I feel gross. So, I figured out how to sell privately, and you do it with funnels, um which is just a fancy way of saying you send emails. Um Got you. You sell You don't put the ads in You don't you you just you just And people are going to join the funnel today. Like at the end of this video, I'm going to say, "Check out my webinar, blah blah blah." And I'll get an email address, and then later

down the line, if they're interested in buying a product, they can buy a product. Um Cuz I'll cuz I'll offer it to them because, you know, many people want to know that the products exist. Um but you do it privately. And and I'm sure I mean, I'm just one data point, obviously. And I'm like not as sensitive to this as some other some other people are like, "Oh, you're trying to sell something? Like FU, man. I never want to hear from you." So, I'm obviously a kind of a skewed data point, but like you're giving away really good information, and it's really polished, and it's really concise, and and you're a a great orator. You already give so much, and then and then if you want more, like here's the thing. I don't know what people want, man. It's like of like it's great that you're selling something. Why would you put so People have no idea how much effort and time and skill goes into making a single YouTube video, let alone the kind of output you have. Why would you Nobody on Earth can afford to do that and not be selling you

something. Well, I'll tell you how much this video costs. This video costs me And this is important for people to know. Um Let's think here. Somewhere around $900. This conversation Okay. This conversation probably your own time, your editor's time. It's $900 to $1,000 a pop. And so, why would I do this for you? Like, why would I consider Like, I I could do it every once in a while, but like if you if people want consistent content from YouTubers, um it's great that the YouTuber gets paid. That's a good thing because the YouTuber's going to create great content around that audience, and they'll get paid to do it, and they'll keep doing it. And you get consistent output, right? So, that's your goal, yeah? You Your goal is to Well, it's not such a goal. It's the the the financial goal is you could sell games with YouTube. And I I just Yeah, I want to have a centralized play. I want to be able to continue building my brand on YouTube and leverage the algorithm a little bit. I I still Like, I'm going to be way more

focused on our game. Our games make a lot of money. I think it would be really hard for me to ever make even close to that um or even like 10% of that on YouTube. Maybe not. I don't know if I put a lot of effort into it, but I think I'm probably better at making games than making YouTube videos. Um but it'll just be nice to have one more uh source, uh you know, one one more funnel, I guess. Yep. Well, I figured out where your um you are you do have impostor syndrome. It's just now Oh. Yeah, you do. 100%. It you you because games are normal to you, in your in your hormonal teenage years where you were forming your brain, it solidified as Danny make makes good games. Yeah, it may it became my identity. Like, I definitely screwed up up. know my identity. That's right. Of course you're not going to have impostor syndrome with that. But now that you're outside of your your hormonal teenage years and your brain is

well, it's like a solid as a rock. It's not going to go anywhere. It's it's it's it's a it's a dusty attic. I'm just going to keep going here and make you feel terrible about your brain. But the reason I say I love it The reason I say that is because the moment you start having kids, your brain sort of just you have to really fight to keep it flexible. And to you have to fight to shift it and to change your it you have to willfully fight to change your identity when you feel like you need to. Mhm. You you got you got to say I'm I know I'm 33. I know I'm I know I just feel like I'm just a game developer or I'm just this or I'm just that but it's now time to become a father. So I got to shift it and break it and your your baby will do all the work for you actually. They'll crack your brain and change it. The same is true the same is true with your YouTube channel. It's like where if you were 18 and you got 1.2 million views you'd be like Mom, Dad, I'm a YouTuber. Uh yeah. It's it's true. It's true. Yeah.

So you are you are. I would keep doing it. You think so? Yeah, you're doing great, dude. You're freaking I'm looking at your views. I'm like I'm kind of annoyed with you actually because No. you're pulling great views. You're doing better than me. Um I feel like that I feel like I'll never I I I don't have another topic that is like the postmortem. So it'll be hard to I think It is hard. Like I I've heard it it's harder to make you know five videos with 100,000 views each than it is to make one video with 2 million views or something like that. Um yeah, so it'll it'll be hard to find topics cuz I I don't want to I don't really want I like I don't really want to become a game dev guru necessarily like I'm not saying I don't I I love game dev gurus and and you do a great job with it but I kind of want to try to speak to gamers and I don't know how to walk or at least people who are really interested in video games and I don't necessarily want

everyone who watches my channel to be have to be like a game dev and I'm struggling finding content that like walks that line I guess. What's your call to action? This will help This will help you. I'm going to help you out here. What's your call to action? I think it would be probably buying or wish listing our game if I was Yeah. Why then why on earth would you target game devs? And you're So you're you're on the right track. Um Yeah, exactly. If people are like, "Well, Thomas, you do game dev content." Well, I'm not When have I asked for a wish list? I never asked for wish list. Right, it feels like your call to action maybe is your or Quinn I mean you you definitely get residual wish lists as well. Yeah, not really. It's It's I I I This channel it's a different business. I have Atmos Games which is the games that I make. That's a whole other business. Right now, this is this is a different business and it's called Full Time Game Dev. It's all about game dev. It's all about becoming a full-time game

developer and I like to feature people like you who make games. Now, I would say that you ever seen the I I mentioned this before, but you ever you ever seen the Lord of the Rings uh documentary? All the time, Thomas. I just watched I literally just watched it yesterday. May- maybe it came up in the YouTube algorithm. That's what I was doing. It's so good. So good. Who's that for? Is that for filmmakers? No, yeah, you're right. Yeah. So that's what I would do. I would target gamers with annoyingly precise content like, "Look at the the intricate details in our illustration technique." And look how hand drawn Here's how this was drawn and you're playing beautiful music and you're showing this process that's almost like a magic trick. I would argue that your job is to be a um street painter. Yeah, that's a really interesting way of looking at it. I Yeah, that that's a great thought. Do

you attribute any of your sales to your YouTube brand equity for your games? Is it like No. No. No, so like literally 0%. Uh well, effectively. I mean, it's Close. Close enough. I don't think about my games I don't think about my YouTube channel as a billboard for my games. And it's not because YouTube isn't a billboard for games. It's that I've decided that that is not for that that YouTube my efforts are more profitable in my teaching side hustle on YouTube. Gotcha. So, I'm not telling you to do that. I'm saying that's that's cuz I'm a really good teacher. I don't know how if you're a good teacher or not. I'm a really good teacher. I'm a really good coach. And so Yeah, I think you are. be stupid for me to not make that my YouTube channel's aim. Um So, people are like, "Well, Tom, I guess Thomas is a YouTuber and he's not a game

developer." No, you can do It's 2024. You can do You can do multiple things at once. And so, for me like 60% of my day, maybe 70% of my day is just making games and working with my team. And then 30% is like, "Okay, I need to do the do the YouTube stuff and and teach." Um I've I've defended you on on Reddit before. you have. There's There are Reddit posts, yeah. Yeah, I was like, "Dude, you guys, what is wrong with you? This dude has shipped two games that have done extremely well. Like, I it's crazy. Like, your credibility is is good as anyone's you know? Like, there are actual game dev gurus who have never Not Not only have they not shipped a game or headed a project, they literally have never touched a production Like, they've never even been part of production. You're You are like, yeah, project lead is crazy, man. It's like Dumbledore. I'm going to compare myself to Dumbledore. Dumbledore he fight he he he drinks the Horcrux, he nearly dies, and he comes into the Defense of the Dark Arts Dark Arts

classroom, and he stands in front of everybody and says, "Okay, I want to teach you how to do it, too." And they go, "Oh, now he's teaching. Now he's selling." Because he he charges for for the school. It's like, "Guys, I I've done this. I want to show you how to do it, too. You can do it." "No, no, no, no, no. I'm going to go buy a a course from Skillshare." And it's like, they've never done it before. Yeah. So, it it's like kicking the person out of who's been in the trenches. It's like kicking them out and saying, "We don't want you." And so, it's like frustrating. I can imagine. I can imagine. Yeah, cuz okay, if you only want if you don't want them to be making content for you to like learn, and you want them to be a game dev instead, guess what? They're not making content for you to learn. How are you going to even hear from them? Like, you if like by default, the second they start making you a really polished, concise video that you actually want to watch, I think is going to uh rule them out. It's crazy. Yeah, it is. I I think it's probably it's I mean, I'll take some blame. You

know, I didn't know how to market. Course sales is a sleazy thing, dude. Like, it's it's it's got a real bad reputation, and it should because there's a lot of gurus out there who are lying through their teeth. I can see that, yeah. And like you said, dude, there's some game devs, man, I get so frustrated. They're like, "Here's how you make games full-time." And I'm like, "I know you, and I know that you don't make money full-time. I know you're making money from sponsorships. Don't tell me that you're making games from from your own money from your own games. You might make some, but you're not making a full-time salary." I see that, too, yeah. it makes me frustrated. I get mad cuz it's making me look like I'm a liar. Because it's like, well, I guess Thomas is he barely makes money off his games. And I'm like, "If I could show you the numbers of the deal that I signed with 3D Realms, you might change your mind." Um so, I get really fussy about this. Um and it makes me frustrated cuz cuz the the the game dev YouTube sphere is starting to get scary.

The reason it's getting scary is because everyone's starting to give advice. And it's like Oh. It's like who do you listen to? Because a lot of these people should not be giving advice. Yeah, for sure. You should. I should because we're in the trenches, and we've done it. We've we've made plenty of money off our games. But there are some YouTubers who are it's kind of like larping as a game dev. It's exactly like that. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I I just I recently made a video called I don't even remember what marketing is not why your most indie games fail. Oh, yeah. You did that one? Uh-huh. Yeah. And you have every right to say anything because you've done it. You know? Um Yeah, it's definitely a completely against the like current indie dev

zeitgeist. Yeah. Of like It's totally not like I don't know how you feel about that particular thing, but like in the greater world of indie dev, everyone thinks that it's just this Oh, you know, I don't know how to market, so like I can I'll never be like an Undertale like sort of thing. It's It's crazy. It's nuts. Well, I totally agree with you, of course. It's a simple It's so simple. May Maybe you disagree. I don't know. But you have to light the fire to market it. To If you're going to blow on the fire and blow the bellows on the fire, um you have to light it to begin with. It's There's got to be a fire. It's got to be something to be kindling. There's got to be something there. And that's the idea. exactly. Yeah. For sure. For sure. So you've got to make something people want. You got to provide value. The only way to provide value Well, this is This is the biggest argument. I I started a big fuss on Twitter, apparently,

when I said fun is the most important part of your game. And I know I think I I think you disagree with me. I was so hoping that this topic would come up. I want to hear your argument because I hope we disagree. So, well, do you think that fun is What What was the tweet? The tweet is fun is the most important part of your game. Okay. That's so And And do you Do you agree with I remember I was just watched a podcast you were doing where you seemed a little bit more on the fence as if that should on the fence anymore. Okay. Fun You feel that fun is the most important part. Yes. I think that for many many games, most games, that is absolutely true. I think that you know, just like in I don't want to bore you if you've already been I mean, this discussion is old, right? This discussion is at least 15 years old. I've seen people talking about it, particularly from

Okay, if you've never touched the literary side of games analysis or the academic side of games analysis, this probably sounds completely insane. Like, what do you So, if a game's not fun, what is it? It's just a crappy game, right? That's how a lot of people feel. Mhm. But, we don't really have that problem in other art mediums, like in cinema, you know, Avengers. It's a good movie. It's a fun movie. Schindler's List, also a good movie. Not a fun movie. Uh it's, you know, it's just one way of describing something. I think that there are uh I think that there are other dimensions to games than fun. I think fun is a great one and it's a fine one to pursue. Mhm. The example The concrete ex- example, cuz if I don't give a concrete example, this is all just like literary that doesn't make any sense. Sorry, I don't know if you can curse on this. Yeah, you're fine. Okay. Um like Elden Ring, uh you know, and probably any FromSoftware game for that matter. I know a lot of people played that, so I think that's a good touchstone. I'm not sure if that game is fun. I'm

not And And if it is fun, I'm not sure that that is primarily why why people play it. I think that I mean, clearly the game is challenging and and that challenge is attractive to us. But I'm not necessarily sure fun is the best Unless you're one of these people that kind of can label anything as fun, right? Like Schindler's List is actually a really fun movie cuz the cinematography is good and watching good cinematography is a heck of a lot more fun than watching bad cinema You know, you could call anything fun. Um but I do think that challenge for one, and the other thing that I think really is the reason why people like Elden Ring, that game is not trying to evoke fun. It's trying to evoke awe. That game is trying to be awesome in the traditional sense. And I think anyone who has, you know, taken the elevator down the uh What is it? The I don't remember how to say She- Shefro Well or something like that. When you discover that there's this I I don't want to do any spoilers, but there is a moment in Elden Ring that I think most people will recognize as probably the best moment in the game and maybe

best moment in gaming. It's that moment that is, I believe, the reason why people play Elden Ring, and I don't think people who have experienced it wouldn't necessarily think fun as their first adjective. I think that they would think wonder. So, that's that's my rant. End rant. It's great. It's great. And I can I will guarantee that 90% of the people in the comments will agree with you. Really? Okay. you Oh, yes. And you're probably right. However, I I like to I like to troll a little bit and I like to be hyperbolic a little bit. Good. I like that. To To make a point. Like Okay, first off, I I saw Was it you who mentioned Schindler's List on Twitter? Um I don't think I've ever mentioned Schindler's List on Twitter, but I know it's it's that this is an old example of a good movie that's not fun. I don't even know. I I think it's a frustrating example. Okay. Because it's like duh. Like of course Schindler's List is it's an outlier. It's like Schindler's List

is always used as this example of like it's always used to describe something It's kind of like what people evoke I can't I don't even know if I can say the word H I T L E R. Okay. that they evoke that name to get a point across and it's like you just chose the most extreme example to to win a a debate. definitely do other movies that I think would I I don't want to I don't want to stop your rant though. But also also it's called a movie for a reason. It's not called a game. So I I found it somebody somebody argued with me about this on Twitter. They said they brought up all these movies. And I'm like yeah, but those aren't games. Like when I'm playing a Like okay. My son and my daughter innately know what a game is. Mhm. Cuz they ask me to play games with them all the time like like hide and seek. They ask me to play games with them all the time because like their core their core subconscious understanding of a game is that it's fun.

And so we call them video games because they're games that are videos. Mhm. Now I understand that not every game has to be fun. I agree. However, hyperbolically sort of a simplification or a rule of thumb or a proverb of Thomas I think it still stands, which is when in doubt, how about that? When in doubt at least make it fun. I can see that. Because yeah. Not everybody not everybody knows how to make a game that creates a sense of place like you mentioned. That's tough. It's like if you're going to if you're going to override fun with sense of place, you better be sure that that's your skill. Fun is actually harder for me than sense of place, but everyone has different skill sets. And I'm the same way, dude. I like story for me is so much easier than fun. It's so much easier for me to tell a story than fun. However, I want the second thing I wanted to bring up was

I I'm not the person to ask about Elden Ring because I can't even I can't function Yeah, I'm not I can't handle it. I hate so much about that game, but at the same time, I know what a master I can see what a masterpiece it is. But yeah, it's not for me, but it is also for me. It's a It's a very weird game for me. Have you ever um you know that feeling after a insane um workout or or or a run or a haunted house where like I'm trying to think of the best example here. And none of that haunted house was fun, but the moment you got out I I can't think of a better word. It's like an ejaculation of joy. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. Like So, that's Elden Ring. Right? That's Dark Souls. It's misery and then you beat the boss AND YOU'RE LIKE, "HOLY CRAP!" The pride of the of completing the challenge. And you you stand up and you I did this.

I was It was like 11:00 p.m. and my wife was asleep and I finally beat this boss and I stood up and I paced I I peacocked around the room. Like, "I did it! It's me chest out, throwing the controller on the bed. What you know about Thomas? What you know about it? That is really fun. Even this conversation is fun. So, I I I my argument against even games like Elden Ring is like, "No, it is fun." Okay, but the fun comes at a cost. really fun about that. Okay, so uh a semantic thing then. Cuz like you're I think you're expanding the definition of fun probably beyond more what I I think so. At least when when the when the academics speak about, you know, that not every game has to be fun. I think that that feeling they would call that like the satisfaction of completing a challenge or or maybe maybe competitiveness we could call it. I don't know if it's competitiveness

that's something challenge I would say I would say. Um but yeah, the I do think that that sense of wonder when you in an adventure game specifically when you get to a new place and you're just like, "Oh my god, this is so amazing like there's this is a crazy place. Like there's so many NPCs walking around look at all this stuff." It feels more like travel almost. It feels more like turning a beautiful street corner in in Warsaw and and being enchanted by what you're seeing and what you're hearing and what you're smelling and all that. It feels more like that and I don't know if I'd say it was so fun to walk around walk around the streets of Warsaw. Maybe I would I don't know. Maybe maybe maybe I could just call it fun and it's just that simple. Part of the reason why I stand my ground here is because I think it's valuable to to think in it's valuable for me to think black and white like that.

Like because I was it was eight years ago my brother he played one of my games like he played Pin Stripe and he was like, "It's really like it's really emotional. But like Thomas do you ever think it'd be a good idea to just make your games more fun?" Oh dear. And and he was right. Like I wish I wish that I could go back in time. This sounds so um gross cuz it seems like I'm becoming like a capitalistic pig. But I wish I could go back to Pin Stripe and just make it more fun. Mhm. Because it would have done way better. You're talking about when you say if you let me like kinesthetics and the mechanics or like more like spatial games or more combat or what are you thinking? I think

just fun. Doing things that make people smile. You know, throwing stuff into the game that surprises people, makes them smile, makes them laugh. Um it doesn't matter what it is. Mechanically, story, I just wish I would have focused on I I I think I tweeted this 3 days ago. Which is like getting a smile should be your goal. Mhm. Okay. And people are like, "What about horror games?" I'm like, "Same thing." Get that smile. But like that freaked out smile. That PewDiePie scream. Get that. Mhm. Got you. You know. I see. I see. And I find that that aim for me. Do you think people don't smile when they play your games? I don't know. Oh, well, I've seen people play on Twitch. It's a good question. Yeah, no, they do smile. They do smile when but it's like aw, it's like, "Wow! Oh my god." I don't know if it's Is it a smile though? I don't know. It's like

Yeah. Their jaws are are I mean this sounds like I'm being arrogant and again No, but literally like I've seen people that like are freaking out. Like their their jaws are open. Mhm. No, that's good, man. It's a it's like you said, it's an age-old debate. And the only reason I stand my ground here and the reason I tweet out quick rules of thumb to get a reaction is because they're so helpful to me. Like they're more they're more effective than they are true. Gotcha. This is a great frame to look at things, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's it's you know, peop- people use the same discussion about God. I I personally believe in God, but some people say I want to act like I think Richard Dawkins says this. I want to act like I believe in God just so that I live my life better. And the same is true with like for me personally, it's so much more effective for me to go aim is fun aim is

fun because for me personally, if I don't aim in that direction with hyper intensity my game will just be like dark and grueling and sad cuz that's my default Oh. disposition. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. Is there anything in your games that you feel like you have to drive at very strongly because if you don't, you'll your default state will avoid it? Oh, this is this is a really good question. Um Yeah, I think that like I I think I I struggle with like um any sort of systemic mechanical design. Like we really want we often want it's so easy to make a puzzle game for me and and for Jaclyn that like when you you make a quest and it has exactly one solution. And it's it feels harder for us to make a

quest where there's multiple ways to solve it because the game systems are that robust. And the game systems are they're all auxiliary to each other and they interconnect with each other and they support each other. Um that sort of mechanical design does not come as naturally to us as like just let's say coming up with a really great quest concept that people are really interested in with cool twists and turns and stuff like that. Right. Right. But generally I'll I'll I'll I mean any game I have authority in designing will have like lots of just happy things and rainbows. Like I'm like kind of like the opposite like everything's a utopia with me. Actually, we had one thing in E Shayd that was really really really dark. I don't know what came over me, but it was completely not the tone of the game, but I just thought it'd be really cool if like if you made this one quest decision this guy actually kills himself. Golly. It was so not in the tone of the game,

but I just thought it was a the quest was interesting and be like, "Oh, wouldn't players be like, 'Oh my god, I can't believe that that happened. Like this character's gone.'" Like it would just like you know, I was just kind of on the on the path of like feedback in games. And 4 days after we launched Jaclyn woke me up in the night. She was like, "I'm really worried about that being in the game. Everyone is You've been reading what everyone's saying about the game. Everyone's saying it's like it's almost like therapy for them. Like it's meditative. They they feel better. It's gotten rid of their depression, whatever." Like people are saying crazy stuff about the game. And they've got this super dark quest that has suicide in it. Like you have to take that out right now. You have to take it out." And I'm like, "Yeah, but it's such a good quest." She's like, "You have to take it out. It's not right." And I did not go to bed until that quest was removed from the game. Oh, no. We We regression tested it and and pushed the update silently. We didn't even mention it in the notes and it was gone. And I I don't know how many people actually saw that quest. That's really really dark of you, Danny.

Was it just a particularly like rainy day in Seattle? I don't know. Like what in the world? I would have kept it in. I would have kept it in. Apple actually made us put a disclaimer on our game when they they licensed NeverSong for Apple Arcade and they said look man you need to put a suicide disclaimer at the beginning of the game because it's just like chock-full of that stuff. Got you. Okay, well we could go on for 5 hours apparently we've been doing almost two here and I'm sorry to take your time. No, don't be sorry. This is great. I'm going to exploit this content make some money. Please do by all means my camera's about to die so it's it's good. Yeah. All right Danny well I got to run to a different meeting. This was so fun dude. Thanks for hanging out. I I had a blast and thank you for having me on I really am honored and have enjoyed it. By the way if you're like me and you always dreamed of making an indie game as a full-time job. I have a free

webinar below that goes into exactly how to make six figures with just a demo. I was just like you for years. I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game. I've done this multiple times. So check it out below if you do want to go full-time indie and thanks for watching.