Indie vs Steam | Games ReCAP Episode 026

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of games recap morning guys thanks for coming back I know you've been here before we're two guys who put on the show talking about big news in the game industry guy number one bring a family once to Larry Charles longtime game developers happy to be here this morning and mr. Brenner fan why don't you hit them with that pre-roll all right so if you're watching us on live thank you if you want to chat with us we do value opinions on our twitch TV forward slash blue underscore champs if you are watching this after the fact that's fine to honor youtube.com forward slash Glee champs if you're supporting us you're supporting us through patreon.com 4/3 champs to help support the show and also to achieve our next goal which is to make this show in specific a audio podcast on your daily

commute if you are supporting you in other ways like being a twitch prime subscriber or hitting that donate button underneath our twitch channel that is rightfully feeding us and we are eternally grateful for that yeah we had Subway sandwiches once so thank you to all the people who have already given us their twitch Prime membership subscription for the month so now let's jump on into that news I have a pretty juicy article today it's gonna be a good reflection on I guess where things are in the industry between NBS and steam so I'm gonna switch over there this is something I came across it's the conversation that's been long going we've been peppering it in with our previous broadcasts talking about what is going on with steam and do they care about Indies right because every move they've made in the past year and a half have been a mark against indie development with their starting with their price model sheet which you know was favorable to games that are already

doing well and unfavorable to games that aren't which are mostly indie developers right in addition to that a lot of the complaints where it's supersaturated now in the market and steams kind of taking a backseat just letting the everyone China discovers things on their own they're not really helping or giving any initiative at the time where we feel like they need the Indy support as much as possible because a lot of Triple A developers are kind of exiting that platform to launch their own games in their own yeah so it's a weird time for valve they basically are probably looking at that and seeing the value of their company because they are really dependent on their party publishers to make their company successful so a lot of those moves have related to resulted to them creating a VR hardware the what was it call it the VR index yeah where

you know they kind of demolished their own Department years ago saying that it's not a focus but suddenly it became a focus in addition to that they're talking about three exclusive VR games that are being in development for that one of it being rumored half-life experience that's what I've heard and the e in experience does it look like a three yeah exactly right and so they they are making a lot of moves right now as a company oh and one of them being to help it feels like discoverability so we're going to look at this article right here to see the type of changes they have so I believe they're still calling it steam labs the specifics of it is kind of general for me I don't know the exact details I just know that there's it sounds like some kind of India initiative but without being branded as that right which is a weird messaging is to just call it that if that's that if it's not the focus

make it the focus because that will win a lot of developers back you can't just release the tools but without declaring that you're taking some sort of long-term look at trying to fix that or like a public initiative to say hey we acknowledge that we've done this and here's our plan to fix that and then here's phase one where we've rolled out two to three things yeah and then here's the plan for the next five six years that's how you get an indie community to reinvest or at least pay attention you know what I mean we want to know what you're doing but also what you plan to do because India especially has to look at their future and where they're where they think that markets gonna be but where they think their funds are gonna be or where they think their opportunities are gonna be two three years in advance even if their games are six month development cycles or less mm-hmm and so uh as noted and this is an article on game industry biz it's been a rough year for Indies I'm just reading this off and then we're gonna analyze that paragraph by paragraph to be fair twelve any developers I've spoken to over the last six months

has been in has informed her the the writer that it's been several years for Indies having a tough time on steam so the last year has been especially rocky thanks to a series of discovery bility issues and communication missteps that have left a lot of indie developers feeling ignored and or deliberately hamstrung at worse so yeah I mean these are things that we talked about in our own podcasts many many many times when we're we have guests on this team isn't the first place you go to anymore it's like it is place that you should have a presence but you're not relying on it for any sales anymore right so for example a sudden unexplained change in steams algorithm inktober caused a sharp sharp traffic drop for many in just a few weeks ago confusion about the steam summer sale resulted in indie games being removed in mass from users play a

wishlist that's that's a huge role I get so nervous when I hear the word algorithm now just because I'm used to like the YouTube economy and yeah oh yes XY and Z but it's those algorithms never cover everybody you're usually designed to best promote best help who owns the platform and then obviously like the top-tier content developers there because who would you rather lose yeah PewDiePie yeah or Meg's channel of how I make different right exactly exactly yeah so yeah and if you guys don't know wish list for any developers is everything now they're relying on that to get some some data on how many sales that they're gonna make right because they only get a percentage of that and to kind of lose that because of a algorithm it's a huge blow that I don't understand it although like unless it was a bug you know what I mean like why changing the algorithm of how people see or how stuff is promoted

would like people who have like clicked on I would like this game to be on my wish list yeah then all of a sudden no algorithm decides you actually don't spend at a high enough threshold for that game to be on your wish list yeah in that genre so we've removed it well to me is like a rusty engineer at [ __ ] he just got back from their annual Hawaii trip and he just thought it was being kind of clever so I guess I'll do some where him I was like oh [ __ ] that's what happened yeah so uh let's see here also the there were several other events from the last year that directly affected or at least demoralized smaller developers some of these included a threatened takedown of some minigames twosie supported pornographic content a vague new content policy and API adjustments that hurts teen spy made helpful data less accessible to Indies all you have forgot about that new revenue sharing tears the only benefit games are already bestsellers yes that's that's the most recent one it's easy to see how these can be discover you could

be disheartening for a small developers especially when starting to get notice on gaming's largest storefront PC storefront and once the developers I spoke to acknowledge that the basic challenge of discoverability we're just too many video games isn't valves fault yes that's true I agree they're valve has the enviable problem of figuring out how to categorize tens of thousands of games to users to provide some visibility to gamers however many of these same developers also experienced restriction that while in the early days of steam greenlight there were numerous benefits to having a game up here on the fat one those benefits have largely dissolved as the library games has exploded they say steams decision to rely on changing algorithm rather than curation has hinted rather than helped their games resulting in sleep Steve Jobs in traffic unpredictable game sales and an increase in the amount of time and expense needed for marketing so this is where I feel steam is there already following Apple's footsteps where those two marketplaces have faced or reached a height of

saturation over saturation and so have made similar moves so the way Apple have evolved and kind of addressed the issues that they actually returned to curation to kind of unmod all their storefront yeah right so that they have like these are the games you should check out because these are hand-picked by a valve staff like this is true for any mega mega store but also any like journalists you go to a news article you have like editors pick or trending or some kind of categorization I mean Steam has some glimpse of that yeah but like to not make that the primary thing that you look at like a huge front facing that's what I'm liking actually from epic right now like if I go to epic I know these games are have been vetted and they're all quality I know every single game on there is quality stuff and so that's what's missing in valve that I feel like they need to return my

steam greenlight was not perfect a perfect system but it was on the way to becoming a better system they could but instead they took several steps back and kind of relied on I understand the scalability of things but I think it was the wrong move to kind of rely on the computer telling you what's creative from what I remember steam greenlight you had three projects kind of vying for public support simultaneously and then was it like a best man wins kind of scenario where these are the three games that we're considering green lighting yeah well the idea is like to have it was some kind of up voting system in awhile right to bring an audience and so if you have an audience that uploads it the top games will actually get into the steam store so it's a popularity contest which I feel you can see why someone would set it up to be that way yeah I think is very helpful right if your game is being supported people wanted happen on the store yeah it it can become it was like an event right yeah it's like hey go over upload my game get it in

there all right the games this month are these and I think that will incur or even discouraged right both indie developers to submit and and see if their game actually shows up or not yeah I think that's a fair process because what the end result will be is like consumers are faced with great games that there's a following has a chance there is a problem with too many games and there is I don't think he should completely I don't think you should completely like abandon developers who want to who want to submit their game because that I don't think that fixes the issue either right to you to completely forget all these people right let's say there's a thousand game and you don't like 15 in right I don't leave us a solution either I think a

combination of what they've been doing which is kind of everybody in but in addition have a curation track where their front page is kind of really helping indie developers that are notable what's interesting is like the ones that need curation are the like hidden gems yeah everything else can be auto-generated just based on the data like what are the top-selling 10 games right now that literally is a button click yeah an excel sheet yeah for back ends yeah right what is the I don't know highest-grossing 10 games what are the fastest selling in 24 hours 10 games like there's different ways to discern like which games are movers or shakers no super easily yeah the hard part about the curation I could see is the like okay now out of these 22,000 games that get submitted this week which ones do we think that like hey we just want this game to be spotlighted because it's an interesting concept or it's like it's going to do well as long as people know

about it you know what I mean where are those gems that's that's where they actually have to have the human touch but you could probably set up 10 category lists easy with just data sorting based on their back-end data right now and I think that even that would be and they kind of had that like they have the pager you can see what's the number one games and you can see and then you can break it down by category and stuff but the auto curation is fine because it's dominated by the big games because obviously they had a budget to market people know that they're coming out they're usually big franchises like oh wow Street Fighter is on Steam I mean you're I'm sure you're gonna hear about that before you hear about I don't know someone else is like small indie team new game you know it means yeah yeah that's the reality that we're dealing with and what I want to touch on though is there's a key point that was said is like hey steam is a platform right but like whose fault is it that there's an oversaturation of games being made right now that's forcing haste valves hand and trying to deal with how do we sort through all this how we make sure like the cream rises to the top on

our end you know I mean like the game developer needs to do their job to make sure that it happens on their end but like we're almost holding Steam accountable for things that they more or less don't have to be responsible for but we are expecting them to do something about it that's just an interesting position it is an interest position because they are the non tradition they're not a publisher yeah they're not like Game Stop either right where they just sell games they are a game developer at the very core and they that's those are their roots so we expect a little more from them because they've been through the trenches as a company to establish this platform that was meant to democratize the games right and it felt like they just stopped halfway through right they dominated the market instead of just leading the market they're kind of just taking this backseat the last few years and yes the

most activity that we've seen for a long time is their resources being put behind VR index fine right if they I think VR is the future and it does take a company like Facebook and even steam to really buy in to accelerate that because aside from PlayStation being happy with the numbers there's really no one else right and there are rumors behind that where Playstations might be coupling their fives playstation 5s with the VR headset there's a lot of rumors going through and that's a huge move that's a huge move so if they do that that will legitimize in my opinion more so than anything oculus is seem doing as if a package does ps5 with the VR they should they that is the next-gen gaming well like if they just come up with a box for the controller again we've had two three generations of that if you unpack that right like if PlayStation 5 was saying hey we believe that then we want an

experience jump again because I've said this many times on game dev Unchained even it's like I remember the day that I saw a PlayStation 1 graphics because I was used to playing Super Nintendo yeah I remember the day I saw PlayStation 2 graphics because I've used a ps1 ps3 even was a big job it's like it started the level off though because the jump from Super Nintendo to PlayStation 1 of course PlayStation 2 PlayStation 1 of course yeah PlayStation 3 to PlayStation 2 like I can tell yeah PlayStation 4 PlayStation 3 like okay we're start it's not a big it's not a big of a jump not that big of a sale as far as graphic fidelity and visual quality so getting knowing that PlayStation 5 would be doubling down on you know how we make games better more exciting is literally putting you in the game with VR and you know they're adopting that is their major pitch front mm-hmm then I can see that big jump coming back all of their games can have VR accessibility it could be what the VR industry would need would love would love is like 30 40 50 million single SKU

supporters yeah a VR there's a lot of selfishness that is going on right now with everyone last time we saw type this type of behaviors with the phones with the smartphones everyone came out with their own phones right I think it's very irresponsible to kind of think like the phones are equating to the VR said no no one's gonna buy a VRS it like a phone right it's a phone is multifunctional yeah it's multi-purpose it's very personal it's very personal and so the if I was Facebook man I don't know I guess Sony has enough grounds to be like we'll make our own VR headset we don't need you right but there needs to be some kind of coalition as the industry is hey we all are in this to make this part of the industry grow up what can we do and I would go to PlayStation and be like you are in the best position right now to dominate the market to make this everyday thing right

they sold through 4 million of those VR headsets yeah that's more that's more than anybody and we're not talking about different versions we're talking about the same they are the leader right and so they are in a great position to go with PS 5 and do this so like with valve like it was very confusing okay right for them eventually yes their VR index or whatever will improve and make it better and whatever it's gonna be Wireless and all this stuff it's very confusing to me as a consumer as a gain of hours why cluttering the market right I think it's just something that you can do you really think that VR index is gonna be the number one headset in any category high fidelity maybe not really we're talking about $1,000 hits it by the way even if it's it's so far behind the game that like even if they win in any category their adoption rate is still gonna be super low yeah and people

need to stop being confused about the vibe index Oh see I I just did the valve index in the vibe yeah yes their names are so similar their name are very similar and like valve did help with the vibe with the vibe but they don't own the vibe that's HTC so them coming out with their own kind of just illustrates that but they don't own the five right why would they come with the editor it's not like oculus where they own all three different gear VR is the index Wireless or no no not the first one yeah that this one is like full-on with the thethe earnest and having having all the the the what the cameras mmm basically so it's very old-school vibe yeah right but you know their next iterations and stuff will probably improve but like that's the first hit sends $1,000 yeah it's

gonna it's it's probably one of the higher PC required PC we kind of course so so it's $1,000 plus make sure you have the PC exactly and they gonna release three VR games for it probably not exclusive right probably they're gonna make it available in oculus but why make the first headset thousand dollars like that's such a steep the thing is if I think of the average consumer and I don't want to sway this away from what we were talking about originally but I will I do want to say this if I'm thinking of the average consumer who wants to get into VR a $400 vive like original vibe off Amazon does the trick you know what I mean like you're not gonna be so upset that you didn't spend the extra $600 to wait for the index to have like some sort of mind-blowing experience that if you really look at it on paper it's probably gonna be marginally better as far as like the average you can see yeah it can't be you're maybe I've read the reviews where the hand controls a little better but like you says marginally better it's not revolutionising the game

from someone who hasn't done it at all $400 to get in the door is a lot better than $1,000 to get in yes so I don't know what their move is late they can't possibly think that their index is gonna dominate the VR market right they're not gonna overtake oculus right they're not gonna overtake vibin their own friend so I don't understand the move behind it I do understand if they wanted to buy into the VR experience as their own game because that bet that market needs like a killer app right there's none right now what beat savers the closest these savers though be Caesars fun and everything but it's not making people jump off like even for me like it's cool but I want a game game right for the VR experience I'm not we want what we're used to yeah we're like some sort of progression challenges adventure stories yeah I don't go out there trying to play guitar

hero it's it's fun but it's not like day one by for me that's like a party thing right yeah sure beats a was very novelty I will say this though like it really does it's a great way to introduce somebody to virtual reality because it's a simple concept yes and it's a yes it's a game that you've wanna bust out when friends are oh it's great to show off VR but it's yeah but it's not me and a living room so I'm gonna beat some Sabres you know I would love a game like a phantasy star online for like a VR yeah like that game was RPG mechanics but it was a super simple system and it was just about grinding and seeing cool stuff yeah like it you were playing the same levels over and over and over and over and over because you wanted a cool thing yeah not because you were really having X amount more fun because you've done it 20 times versus 10 times yeah it was you had specific goals yeah it was simple it just kept repeating and people loved it yeah a game like that I think it would be pretty dope on VR yeah well

I mean talking about the valves moves lately it's just been more and more confusing and we were talking about how PlayStation 5 could possibly couple with the set I think it'll be a brilliant move on their part I they do it I mean it'll cost a little more of course but for them to jump into still hardware and everyone's kind of talking about the streaming thing that would be a great way to be like hey you still require hardware right but like these VR guys I think valve is in the best position they should have just went let's [ __ ] [ __ ] the hardware yeah right we're not a hardware company right why we're going into this business what are we expecting out of it forget that let's just focus on the arguments fine let's really help this market grow instead of trying to control it let's approach Sony like let's say well let's make some with exclusives you know and really have some launch software for this VRS oh my god

yeah that will blow up PlayStation 5 that will help alleviate any risk on Valve's part right they're not gonna lose money they're gonna be gaining money day one so as a company they'll be stronger I don't understand this indexing that it's not making me want and go out there and try I don't even sell me things I'm just hearing from it it's like I don't care to join the interesting thing that we have to continue to remind ourselves about valve is there in print money mode because of steam yeah so like even if this is a complete flop what does that really mean in their finances you know like they have they have the resources to be ambitious to push technology to do whatever crazy ideas they want and probably not even feel it by the next fiscal quarter sure so that's why I would say well it's probably because they don't care if they lose they believe that they have the best VR system and they want that technology to

exist so like they have such confidence you know I mean because either way they're fine yeah so they may as well I guess that's probably that's probably what that but it just also makes me feel they're still out of touch with what's going on it's like why are you doing this if their whole purpose is to up their value as a company sure this is your best this is your best idea right it really makes me question like their moves man like they just recently bought valuing the guns yeah haven't heard much about them I'm sure that team is being split up to work on other projects half I've experienced yeah half like experience maybe some people are left on Valerie the guns this is me guessing but that's how when you work at a company with multiple you know multi multiple projects you're you're gonna be pulled you got a repurpose and so yeah I'm just disappointed man because they're not

doing anything in any fronts that they have their foot in the market in and ain't selling it anything right they still have their steam store sure they're still number one PC market epoch is a threat but come on it's a it's a fly kind of bothering you right it's nothing on steams level yet yeah right but it's even then the last few months I haven't heard anything that they're doing aside from the discoverability and when I'm reading through this it isn't even that big of a thing right so steam gives a bare minimum package announced as a developer it's not anything at all when the indie movement started out though that wasn't the case if you actually made it on Steam you got some exposure for that being on Steam gave you back bragging rights the FS completely gone yeah several developers including Megan Fox of last bottom games and Emma Mies and Masson of consuming games told me that they were previously successful indie studios are

beginning to hedge against the probable just decrease in attention their games now have will receive by planning on advance and putting more resources into marketing then we're necessary well I mean that's of course ok you gotta clapping for that because one of the big things that I feel like we've been echoing for years is if you don't have marketing budget for your game I mean you're you're being financially irresponsible with the idea of thing that you're gonna make your game and be a mess in the first place you have to have your marketing budget in your game development budget like that you can't just be like we're gonna take a million dollars to develop this game and then we're gonna Facebook spam our friends yeah you need to know before you even start putting gold master candidate build together that you literally have people who are paying attention to who have resources for doing nothing more than making sure people know that your game exists yes yes yeah so this is

beyond steam right and again its future proofing yourself because if you're relying on algorithms there is no accountability on that side right this is an Apple problem this is a steam problem any store that is saturated to make noise you have to happen noise budget alright within your own game company so you should be doing this anyways and the only way you can be successful despite of all the issues and who holds the key to the gates in the marketing world this is the way for you to kind of be safe yeah if you build it they will come it doesn't work anymore it did when there was a hundred games being uploaded to steam a day yeah now when there's thousands you know what I mean the saturation point just it really just means one thing to the indie developers understand that that's just how it is now right and plan accordingly don't go in there with expectations or

complaints that a company is not doing something in your best interest a company completely separate from you acting in its own best interest you can't be upset that they're not doing the things that you want and demand and expect that will give you success but take from them you know what I mean you know obviously steam is optimized to make steam as successful as possible they're always gonna try to make steam as successful as possible if your goals do not align with steams goals you cannot expect steam to do any more than whatever they do for you whatever bone they throw you they don't know you that you know it means like in today's market especially to all the people out there who are thinking about making games small teams whatever big teams I don't care market like that is now a responsibility for you as a game developer if you want to be in the business of games development yes marketing learning how to reach customers is just as important as your game designer in my opinion now you you cannot just make the product and think you're gonna show it off anymore yeah you gotta sell tickets to that art gallery yeah I mean the more of these

social platforms or stores are relying on algorithms to get their games automated right and it's becoming less and less control for developers to kind of predict and rely on and one of the issues with steam in the past year has been because they implement a new code and that's been messing with breaking point for many developers to begin working voicing their concerns publicly right so similar drop since traffic no occasionally explanation had happened before the one in October seems to be the most widespread and dramatic after the blow it's no wonder that the steam summer sales wishlist misunderstanding went over the way it did there's a certain carelessness that valve is clearly showing right where they don't care they don't care and when that happens there's a distancing between the

champions platform where you used to be the people with champions platform and where now it's just like you're just like any other [ __ ] publisher again well it's to me steam is becoming like digital best buy yeah like they're gonna be steam it's gonna be a great place to buy games but you're going there because you know that you will get the PC copy of whatever exclusive favorite awesome big budget big title game that you want to get but the like hand curated handcrafted mom-and-pop shop game development stuff you have to know those people or know about their games otherwise because you're gonna see a lot less of that on Steam yeah so like that independent underbelly market that like the non I got published game developers are gonna have to find new ways or new opportunities because it sounds like steam isn't course-correcting in their favor fast enough yeah with as much intent as those developers would like right and that's exactly the next point like one of the indie developers Cahills lament that valve hadn't made amends is

the other common thread throughout ever major incident that had an impact on Indies and last year another developers are fed up with what they see as a lack of communication from the company and games are warned or removed from Steam the already mysterious algorithm has changed the rules of promotion are made clear and they aren't told what's happening one developer who asked to remain anonymous told me they attended a GDC meeting for any developers to speak to valve representatives as a sort of damage control falling the algorithm issues in 2018 however they said that the meeting ended up being more condescending than anything I felt like parents telling kids why they'd have to eat their vegetables at one point during the meeting developers acid they could have some kind of guide or checklist of what steam was looking for in an in-game for it to be too promoted and given more visibility and cording to the anonymous developer Valve's response was if we gave you that checklist you would use it well of course why would they ask for it if they didn't plan on it sounds like a

very cond rias bonus that's when you start I sing over through the corporate darkside it's like are you forgetting the whole purpose of why you created this because you two were frustrated at one point of having no control on how your game is being portrayed or sold out there or promoted like it's crazy that they gone from there to like this is what I'm saying man this is where I always preach to you where a person doesn't know their full self until power is given right even with me being so certain of who I am as person being dirt poor is not the same as being a king right and so now they're king of the mountain and this is what they're doing which really to me tells you or us or anybody that values valve their true character in all this is just yes there are another money-grubbing I don't understand the responses if we gave it

to you you would use it like I'm racking my brain right now trying to think 1 why even if that's literally how you felt why you would ever say that yes to the people who like cool and like these people want problems to be worked out and they say hey ok so you have this algorithm you have these things that you guys look for for what makes a game worthy of being shown we want our games to be worthy of being shown let's meet in the middle why don't you tell us what you look for so you can oh you want pancakes for breakfast cool let me go make pancakes yeah no no no sorry look I kind of just want to walk into this restaurant and have you guys just make stuff and then I'm gonna pick what I like yeah you don't if I told you what I wanted you would make it like a [ __ ] course yeah so I understand for me what when I read that what I hear is that they have a resource problem right every steam move that they've made is to kind of close the gate from the siege right they're so afraid of like holding that gate up a little because

it's gonna flood in all this work for them that they cannot handle currently the air smells valuation yeah they're they're a small company right there they can't handle the interest that everybody has so for them the gate with these algorithms it's a way for them to kind of process but then being small is like complete on them that is on them they are so greedy was like you guys can afford to grow and make this work and fix these complaints and still have enough on the side to go on your Hawaii trips you know I'm assuming if we look at the grand scheme of things there's probably just some sort of unproportional amount of money that they get from managing less titles because bigger budget like okay like Squaresoft square Enix games are on Steam right yeah imagine how many units those things drive over ten games yeah versus how many different individual indie games you're gonna have to manage over to get that same amount of sales

yeah right we're talking thousands maybe even multiple thousands plural is already thousands anybody get what I'm saying yeah yeah so like the amount of work to like hey let me just make sure squaresoft is good to drive sales versus let me go make sure this whole ass community is good yeah this is where that's I can see that being a like are I loaded this this is where being an IPO company is actually good for the growth of the company right sure because we're dealing with three hundred five hundred plus let's say a thousand right still not enough for what they're dealing with as a business they're basically a best buy chain right yeah plus Amazon right so they are filled with cash in their pockets where they like what's the difference between 1 billion 10 billion it's like why bust our ass right there's no need there's no incentive for me to try harder right we're we're earning as we can handle right and we're growing

ish right we don't need to do any more and that that's we're like a company a private company like valve when they go into IPO where it is helpful right to kind of always think about quarterly profits right quarterly resolved it's like well last year we had a billion now how do we get the two billion they I feel like they stopped that type of thinking took probably fighting against it right they hate that idea but it's complaints you're turning your you grown so much that the complaints have piled up where it can't be ignored anymore like the news about valve in in there interrupts now now it has been mostly blasphemous right it hasn't been good there's nothing about valve news lately have been like applauding their efforts it's more like what the [ __ ] are you doing the indie developers that you created the platform for essentially are

against you third-party developers don't think you have make it give a fair price they're all leaving and uh as a game developer it's like what games are you [ __ ] making dude like where's my games VR okay dollars to play your feedback if they made a game and the game sold a million copies yeah I still don't even think that that would show up on their radar yeah it's a loss it's like we could've just have back we could have gotten up earn a million at the cost going into making that game right yeah every day that we don't do that scene there in a spot where everything that they do look every arm that they have out there in the market is has been underperforming yeah it's like guys come on button up I guess stop moving or you're free form office right you stop rolling your tables

around and do some [ __ ] work like it's it's that's an inside joke they have been very interesting position to me like just trying to gut check evaluate their business based on what I know they deal in all digital products yeah the steam box didn't come out very but they do have warehouses all they have their hardware that's about to come out now so like until that goes on sale in my mind valve steam is an all digital service the biggest for PC sales and their small color moving I'm assuming billions right billions billions of digital as in like just make sure the service space yeah they only we don't have to go carry you don't have to go DHL UPS USPS we don't have to do any of the very profit oh my god is this this is what I'm saying right it's like me and you right we got this thing breaking in million billions and they're

asking us to do more I was like why right but that's the problem with a private company they're so fat where they don't see the reason the move private company doesn't have a boss and if they're already successful if they already see that they're just gonna continue until there's a major shift that they have to deal with and even then I mean I'm sure valve is like what do we do with this money right like oh yeah what do we do to make sure that we're not just leaving bank accounts full of cash let's do VR like well that's where I'm like you are so out of touch yes the bet that that's a move where like you have so much money left over that you actually think that this is a good idea I want it's not a business marketing strategy for sure like when they shut down that department that was the smartest thing they did right you know no disrespect to the developers that was over there but yeah like there was its a flooded market with devices why are you

adding another hardware where it's more about where we for this VR market to catch on and has it right there needs to be a coalition there needs to be these guys sitting together is like this let's stop competing against each other and let's focus on software and and make sure that people want these devices in general right it's crazy when I go to the store and freaking Samsung has a device I was like I didn't even know they had a device but they have one it's like what the hell I wonder if some kind of like espionage meant to kind of make sure that this hardware business doesn't take off because it feels that way if I were to like I don't want this Hardware to take off I want to like punch Facebook in the gut and make sure they don't grow how do I do that I'm gonna put out $50.00 headsets with no software beyond because come on there's a thousand headset there's no good reasons for a software

to be paired with with them this is exactly what's happening with the Martin you go to a Best Buy or Amazon or anything there's like 10,000 VR things and it's like why I think long-term VR and AR are gonna win hand over fist I think the traditional flat-screen gaming experience is gonna be redheaded stepchild yes I don't know when but I I'm telling you VR AR it's gonna happen everyone thinks that but the steps are missing right now I think the hard part is when I think about the video game industry in its infancy especially home consoles right we had like maybe one two choices major choices yeah Nintendo Atari then Nintendo Sega and that kind of just ended up being where you were going and then sure there were like little up stars who tried to come in and then they failed and then other things to try to come in and then they failed but for the most part your consumers your entire audience for home consoles had a couple of choices yeah get games for your computer get games for Nintendo get games for your Sega I think and I think Atari had even dropped out of the

race once it had become Nintendo Sega yeah so it's like almost a 50/50 because a lot of people had computers and they had a home game console you know what I mean now VR and AR is also competing with just the traditional gaming console yeah right so you have PlayStation Xbox switch yeah and you have a PC then you have your VR also as and this is before we even start talking about all the different ways that you can play VR magically oculus quest oculus go oculus regular vive vive pro index all this 90 choices of entertainment platforms right means 90 platforms that are gonna die and then this is where I feel PlayStation and their position and why their strategy is gonna trump all yeah all right no.11 yeah well not well smart not just that the last generation they just released her headset and no one really thought

about them in the game right it was all about oculus it was all about five right Playstations I will release a headset and just sneakily became like the leader by a clear four million right salt the most didn't didn't confuse the market with multiple head says different version it's like here's our headset it's sleek its cool it works it's not the most powerful but we have the [ __ ] console we're in that we've been in a game console business for such a long time we know how to make [ __ ] hardware and sell it to directly to gamers right so all this clutter that's happening PlayStation I think even my xbox if Xbox is gonna go hard with a our stuff but we haven't been hearing too much about them right now Playstations gonna lead the way they are leaving the way they're gonna dominate the market right because they are giving exactly what they have been gathering data last few years you know the gamers dictate the sales provide gate good games

provided good headset that feels comfortable and let's package it I really hope that they do because if they do man that that's the VR market finally established finally there's numbers that developers can point to and say like we're gonna create a VR game for the PlayStation 5 Oh what do you mean alts there's 10 million copies out there so assuming PlayStation 5 we're gonna see 20/20 right now assuming PlayStation 5 possibly 20 late 2020 is my guess yeah assuming they're also gonna ship a headset with it I'm can they get that headset low enough so that a PlayStation 5 isn't also $600 right because I think even in 2020 regardless of inflation or whatever have you I think a $600 all-in-one is a steep price it is a steep price again these are rumors and it is very hard to imagine that they're gonna find a $600 price value with the headset I hope that they just make that work right because somehow I really do

think they're gonna sell a lot it's gonna differentiate them from Xbox we're going to take 30 million times is my question can they afford to take $150 hit 30 million times knowing that over the course of them selling those 30 million units one they're gonna get production cheapness there right right we're back money back there it's definitely gonna be less sales the more money they charge but I think it's if even though they do charge more with the head cent I think it's gonna be a welcome move by a lot of people as long as you have some soft with a show like this is the future right so looking at that looking at arena this is where I feel again you know valve should have looked at that and be like who's the leader right now let's create salt let's talk to them create software let's make sure this works right make sure the bed is there if we want to come up with our head set later that's fine but right now there's so the problem is there's so much hardware right why are you adding

to the problem because it's not a problem for them I guess this is just the rich kid wanting to do something yeah right it's not a business marketing sense there's no Avenue that I see that VR in next and there's no way in those meetings that they have about this headset that they make that oh yeah VR eNOS is gonna Dom in the market in five years this is how we're gonna do it they're not having those conversations come on well they're not right I'll say they're not right there's no way they're talking I'm sure they're think they're talking it up like that I'm sure there's people in there who are on the project who have to be that person right like they're like hey team we're doing good stuff this is gonna be great yeah here's why we care about this device that we're making and here's our five-year plan like I think those conversations are being had I just I'm pretty sure that they're wrong yeah right like I think that they have made they might have even made the best headset ever the problem is its mute to the demographics of the marketplace right now it is not it did

not take into account where things are yeah it did not take into account what consumers are expecting and it is definitely not disrupting it is like it's it's a marginal increase right yeah disruption was the oculus because we had nothing nothing before nothing to even compare where we are now is past the point of disruption now you're just adding to with a slight improvement adding to a problem yeah it's very confusing and reading through this article it's a seems like whoever is calling the shots over there and I can't imagine this just gave right they have a board directors people working under Gabe kind of dictating where the company should go he probably gets the final say sure it's all wrong moves man it's like what are you doing they might be over betting on half-life 3 on their VR set being the killer app

that will sell and move that head say let's play that scenario how do you feel that no it's not gonna sell millions of headsets without knowing the price point of the headset being a thousand dollars if I was assuming they were gonna be price competitive and like slot somewhere around 400 and then say the full halflife3 experience is only on this I would have bought in Italy yeah I think like I'm at the lab we'll try that I could I could possibly swing that or I know at least I would have an option to play it somehow some way yeah because someone in my circle would have yeah the regular consumer who is just a fan of half-life 1 and 2 who has a PC who is playing games today finding out that they have to pay $1,000 to then pay $30.00 to play half-life 3 or even if half-life 3 came pre boxed in with every headset for free just cuz you bought it you get half like three for free even if that was the case that is a thousand dollars Brandon yeah a thousand is a lot of money man with a PC for some fun like right now it's not oh that's a vacation that is a plaintiff

I would expect if it's a similar move that they did with a vibe right it's exactly the vibe was priced at a higher range when they first came out and after the oculus like $6.99 yeah it was the higher value it's they're following the same footsteps it's like can't you just forecast by looking back Edward vive is right now you're doing the exact same moves right that's where they are right now and that's what you may be be later but probably not your kind of reach higher than HTC vive success the main problem that these our headset makers it feels like to me keep failing to realizes that the problem with the success of VR isn't fidelity in a sense right to the to the top-level expert or with not the expert but the connoisseur VR of course is gonna want the best VR experience whatsoever yeah they're the VR industry is trying to solve the problem of just general adoption in the first place yeah

right so fighting over like eight nine ten more frames a second is not what's happening it's the we can't get people to jump into the marketplace and give it a shot yeah how do we solve that problem and I promise you it ain't the better headset that costs a thousand dollars yeah when people are gun shy about things they don't want to have to commit a thousand dollars when I'm going to those timeshare meetings they give me a free sandwich yeah and they give me an hour presentation yeah then they hit me with the big price tag yeah how much the timeshare cost there it's such a way my first car was not a Lamborghini yeah my first car was a Ford Mustang yeah yeah do they have times yeah unless they have the time to kind of play that out the next ten years with that price point it's such a weird move I don't understand it man they used to be so savvy with this stuff and now they're just completely I guess this is what a rich person does like I'm

just gonna do what I want doesn't matter that's the type of move that I feel that's happening right now I wish valve if you opened up like a summer internship for me so I could go there like see behind the scenes I would [ __ ] Charlie would be like I'm just saying this now it's like well sure I just I feel like so many things are being done but I also am NOT the rich like Larry it doesn't matter at the end of the day if this goes well I'm a billionaire if this sucks that's essentially what they're dealing with over there because it is a move that basically tells us that it's like they don't care they don't care if it's successful or not I mean there is a certain care right but it's like Eagle care it's not like wallet I mean there's a lot of money putting being put into this research without without the that that step that

hand what I call your shareholders Yeah right who aren't billionaires Yeah right who want to get close yeah yeah you know financial prosperity of their own without that driving force behind decision-making you can I could see why valve is in the position that they're in in regards to growth change adoption or future plans hey I can understand completely why they're exactly the way that they are yeah I hope it changes because indie developer still has an issue that we're trying to solve which is discoverability and steam is in the best position to do that outfit epic is definitely making great strides into helping with that but steam is clearly still the leader in this they can literally come out with a blog post in a slight just add ten people to curate or something it'll be a beginning that can be very procced prospering man it's like

hey if it's not a money issue on the index isn't main to solve the money issue it's it's a fun problem I'd say we should have our own headset I'm sick of dealing with these other guys okay but you know you're not expecting to make money out of it you know you would probably shift your focus on the money maker part which is like all right how do we get any two phones back on our side I hope they're having these discussions because I'm not seeing any results developers to the indie developers I'll say this be very aware of where the marketplace is right now be less willing to protest and more willing to innovate innovate in regards to your technology but also in regards to your marketing and business strategies yes and now that concludes today's episode we are here 10 a.m. every morning falling up today's episode will be a game dev Unchained podcast episode and

is a special one we're gonna do a glass or a confession it's been a while all right so hang on for anyone that is watching we'll be back in five to ten minutes [Music]