XBOX & Sony & Indie Games Future Plans | 350

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev unchain the number one game devel podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host Brandon fam with me uh it's that time of the month Ray Graham how you doing Ray hey man how you doing what's up all right let's slip right into the round table of news episode [Music] um all right Ray I don't want to make the whole episode about this uh We've dedicated a bunch of time about what's going on with the industry I have to touch on it a bit because you're kind of like the the lifeline of uh what's going out you know what's going on out there um a lot of layoffs are happening like I want to share like the latest ingredients from my side We compare

notes what's going on your side I'm hearing people out there man like who's are director level lead levels who's kind of been out there looking competing for very small uh pieces of the pie in the industry and man they are straight up like I hear people like straight up like applying for Costco and like for real not even joking around dude they're looking for some type of stability It's Hard Out There and uh they're just looking for any job just to kind of sit through sit out the storm that's happening right I don't know if you're starting to hear that type of stuff on that side I'm not hearing that yeah I'm not hearing that like like um like Define small things right I I don't know how you would Define that but like almost a lot of the people that I know either been laid off or unsuspectedly or whatever like as of right now a lot of the people I know have found other

jobs oh okay they're bouncing back yeah yeah yeah and I don't you know I maybe it's just the folks that I I I'm I I'm talking to and there might be other ones that I haven't talked engers um no not even all right just GNA give my give an idea of what the disciplines are kind of like I'm gonna name I'm GNA name one of the other disciplines you're going to be like yeah of course um technical technical artists okay all right right right reaching out of your comfort zone there yeah yeah so exactly like technical artists are also like at least if you're if you're good like there seems to be some opportunities people have been able to find yeah um you know I think somebody found a role that meta and somebody else found a role some some other company I can't remember that's doing some sort of ugc platform um but but I'm hearing I'm hearing like people are some PE some folks are landing on their feet um some other some other people taking the opportunity to start

their own thing yeah um so so like so I've been seeing a lot of that but I haven't I haven't heard of anybody at least that I know uh trying to get a job of Costco yeah I I have not heard that at all I would love to hear more more about that I am on the front lines right so I'm speaking on the artist side that are like uh kind of going through like this crisis of AI at the same time probably taking like a huger hit as far as layoff just to kind of get get people kind of up to date yes you are probably hearing this recording a little later but you know we're talking about nma right now uh looking at statistics last year about 10,000 people got laid off right uh 10,500 right that's the numbers uh the datas are coming through as of now uh June is we've already hit 10,000 people just this year alone so just this year we're

already encroaching on the numbers that we did last year in half the time half the year um even though like the hopes are things are slowing down in terms of just layoffs I do hear that Microsoft is probably doing another big round um late in this quarter early in the next quarter um definitely definitely heard that yes yes definitely heard that uh other big companies um the equivalent of uh let's just say are doing heavy performance reviews right just like like just like more like militarized performance review and usually what that means is like all right round some people up uh because we got to start cutting um even more so unfortunately it's I think people want things to slow down but I'm not hearing it yet so I at

least in the immediate future it hasn't turned uh I'm glad that you're you know engineers and Tech artists who are always having difficulty right finding jobs are doing fine but the artist's side are having like it's something that I think I've been kind of warning about I think like when Co was happening when these over hiring you know these round taes that we have I was kind of throwing up red flare saying like yo this is a we're hiring too much you know it's going to swing the other way and and even now I feel like this is becoming pretty brutal on on overcorrection right this is too much to the fact that I think it's damaging the industry um like it's not even about like setting the tone uh in terms of employer over employee uh uh Power right struggle or whatever right it's

like I'm having friends that are trying to sit this out like they're not able to apply for jobs um they're on multiple interviews and the compet competition there's just so little Jobs versus the amount of talent out there right now and I don't think that situation will change uh not just this year but NE like a couple years few years of um because you know even Activision if they the only only team that I've seen a big company that have that went through a big layoff and then immediately went through a big hiring push is epic games right now right surprise surprise right epic uh had a huge layoff late last year early this year and they're the only ones I feel like are hiring at all uh because of the Disney money right the Disney influx they're building that

metaverse and so uh you know they're having a even then the pick of the talent to kind of take their time and and it's the only update I've been seeing consistently that like oh I'm working at Epic I'm working at Epic and some of those guys you know I like you're working epic you know what I mean it's like I mean epic used to be in my opinion like one of the hardest places to get through the door and uh thankfully they they've lowered the standards in my opinion right uh maybe because uh well they just need anyone to kind of uh that knows unreal to kind of go in there and make Disney stuff right but also uh remote definitely allowed them to kind of uh just just have more talent to kind of fill these roles but that's the general consensus of what I'm seen the last

few weeks since our last round table of what people have been telling me and what I'm seeing But the saddest part is yeah people are just looking for regular jobs I mean on LinkedIn alone you can see people like hey I'm just door dashing I'm just driving things around just to kind of keep afloat but even then like how long can you really do that until you kind of think about oh man I need a permanent solution you know this ain't just a few months it might be till the end of the year um and this is you know uh artists have definely fewer choices um than you guys over there on the engineering side yeah yeah um yeah I don't know yeah I don't know you know like um I I definitely like you said a bunch of things there but one of the things you said something about like lowering of standards and I hear that a lot yeah um but I I think that's just a natural occurrence when um when you just have to grow like

like crazy right because if you keep a high standard right not everyone is that good not everyone has that much experience not everyone you know like there's a certain percentage of the population that that that fill that role and either they're already working there or they're working someone else somewhere else right um but yet you have all this influx of money and you have all this content you need to build and you need to build it you know what I mean so so like you know you have to start start um getting people in the door um maybe with a little bit lower bar maybe right because of the the growth is just so crazy you know what I mean and I I think like VC backed startups and and other like like game company startups and and other people that have this influx of cash are still hiring because they have these goals and objectives they're they're trying to hit and they have money in the bank from the for the VCS you know um but but yeah but but the other way around the Publishers of the

tradition which is a lot of the traditional AAA Studios um are being very very conservative and laying off people and reducing cost um one of the things that I always kind of uh pay attention to right our close cousin the movie industry the entertainment right the biggest thing this past weekend that I don't think anyone's kind of connecting the dots but I'm that guy right I connect dots for us uh for our industry but for right Mad Max came out already flopping uh in terms of like turnout right it's making maybe under 30 mil for a big budget movie like that which is like 160 right uh the biggest pattern since Co is that when it's not doing well uh it immediately is you know the marketing doesn't stop it's like immediately oh it's going to be on demand in a month right that kills immediately the box office uh ability to kind of rebound

back or anything we saw this with Fall Guy with uh Ryan Gosling it's a big like stunt you know backup thing you know as soon as they saw like oh we're not making this money back it's already available two weeks after being in the theaters right which kind of to me defeats the longevity of even needing to go to the theaters anymore if they keep doing that right I I think you know the exclusivity essentially of being in the movies uh movie theater is being ru at the same time right Planet the Apes which people are saying have no star power uh is killing it right 300 it's like the fourth movie of the franchise of the new reboot right and uh surprisingly it did way better than most people thought uh and so it's definitely I'm bringing this up because um I'm starting to see that part of the industry in this

weird uh transition that they too don't really have the answer as to why because Mad Max is having a great review I mean what's the history here even the last I love the last movie too and even don't know I don't know about history right but um but like planet apes sequel fourth movie it's actually I actually thought it was pretty mid quite frankly but of course but of course I went to go see it because I go see yeah of course yeah I I go see every planet Age movie you know I just just on principle I go see every single one okay and and the effects and like dude it's incredible right like it just looks gorgeous as always right um and Max I was the furiosa I was like why are they making this movie I think everybody asked that question everybody's like why does this movie exist and they're like oh we're doing uh you

know back in time back in time story for furiosa and we use a different actress entirely and everybody was like but why though right you know and and that just like nobody want to you said you mentioned Fall Guy I think the first time I ever even heard that that was a movie yeah was I I saw the the poster in the in the scroll like on Amazon or you know what I mean and I was like oh oh I never see that before so um so yeah I I think I think uh what you're saying is one thing but um but like I think you could have seen that those movies were going to be flops from day one so you think it's more about the content that's really failing them than than what the health the industry is okay at least at least those examples you give I think it's really obvious yeah I think it's a mix of it for sure like the only reason why I brought it up right where game development podcast the correlation that I see is that the same way that the movie industry kind of put themselves in this

corner of like you can get high quality movies at home at the same time of getting high quality movies uh in the theater and we talked about this right they were like most people I feel like are are are struggling with the backlog of great movies they know that they have uh versus going out there and watching and purchasing tickets to a new movie right because there's only like a like I think time if anything have changed for the average consumer consumer there's so much competing for our attention now that these choices are becoming more and more uh vast right um versatile and uh I am beginning to also see uh that because the where the economy is to right like Memorial Day is usually a big box office weekend right it's always

been when people go out and watch movies history shows and the cool thing about movies and uh how they do things their data set is so good like in terms of predicting what works and what doesn't work uh they can like figure out within the day of release even before its release of where it's going to track uh through I I still think it's a to me it's a mystery of how they they know two days before rele it's going to be a flop or not right very rarely it's like a surprise hit or whatever right so I'm starting to like the biggest thing I think the biggest crisis the next year after all these layoffs uh stop and we bounce back is that new games are really going to start competing with old games uh either that's remakes or just us uh just your steam Library essentially right and um I don't think people realize that enough

because uh the same way like a lot of uh these movies are being taking up a lot of your time that people are just queuing up and waiting right I have so many movies that I want to watch like I'm you're talking about playing the Apes I love the concept but I still am trying to make my way through the trilogy I've seen the first one I've seen parts of the second one and I know I love it but it's it's like there right especially it's on Disney now right that I can watch it it's available so I turn it on when I can but I'm I'm finally making my way through Fallout right so yeah freaking awesome they did I don't know why they're not making a Bioshock series by now it's like dude just hire the same guys like do it basically Bas yeah it's like but like like the biggest crisis that I'm seeing in the next year and I would love to hear your thought is is going to be this it's like wait it's that the same way that uh Netflix kind

of uh kind of held on to like people sharing their accounts with family and friends right finally turned that switch and they double their profit right I think that problem is about to happen with people who just stop buying new games uh as much uh because they're you know with the economy people are going to like question why don't I just play through the Batman you know Trilogy again I know it's dope haven't played it yet uh like maybe I'll wait this one out so I don't know what the impact's going to be like when new games we're we're going to finally have a bad year right we keep we always talk about games growing infinitely always profiting but I feel like that year where games are not going to do as well is is right around the corner because of what's Happening well there's there's this definitely there's going to be the

Slowdown because we're firing everybody right all vets all new new ideas basically new students are going to be out on the curb right and there's just going to be this middle developer for like three years I think and so I think projects are going to stop or slow down right and there's going to be this pause in the industry that's going to happen uh because of this overcorrection that I I think irresponsibly the corporations just don't see that they just think they we'll fire everybody and if we need we hire them back you know but like you know if you're like in games it's it's Unique in that way I I mean probably in games more than movies like I think in games if one dude that somewhat Central to that project is gone you feel it people like peace out mentally like it's like I'm done this project is like they don't care about me I need to start looking for something else they just

stop trying as hard right and that kills a project so I feel like everyone's doing that right now because no one's like oh this is just a job because they obviously just remind me that this is just I'm just a person that's replaceable again yeah I mean that's always the case but um but more now than ever I feel that people yeah again I you said some stuff there like new um you know the newo report that came out maybe a couple months back now the Kaku was reporting on yeah um kind of talked about this a little bit about how like when it comes to the attention of Gamers and and the time they spent like a lot of them I either is playing you know Madden FIFA NBA um and and a lot of them are also playing uh you know fortnite Roblox and other games that games right right um

and so like new games or games that are not those things are going to have a hard time capturing players attention and more and more you know the steam store is has more and more games there's Game Pass where you could just download a a a tile wave of game after game right so so it's GNA be harder for new games to the the kind of break through because of course attention right and like you said right and and we're competing with movies and television and and the NBA playoffs and all the things right um but there's that core piece of Gamers that you find that are always spending everything yeah but they only are doing it with a very small amount of games right right and that's kind of where um where where this becomes a kind of a

problem yeah let me let me kind of highlight some of that from that research report right gaming engagement today uh we're looking at 79% of the total online population engaged with games uh let me switch over so every can see crossplatform players you can't see it right but I'll read it to you nearly 50% of gam play on more than one platform spending behaviors in the past 6 months 57% s a player spent money on video games mhm uh I wonder if that number dropped probably through that report I need to read through it and kind of dissect it a bit I bet it dropped in terms of amount of players that actually spend money on 57% does that seem lower than usual um how Brands fit into gaming players are reacting positively to Brands and discovering new brands while gaming so advertising but yeah I mean like I do see it like I myself am doing that like

I don't I think on average I probably spend more money on games than most people like I'm I have I feel like I'm the only one buying games on The Meta right I was like oh cool this games look good bye you know it's like if I see anything wish list it's like oh I heard about this game yeah let me kind of save that it's on a discount you know I'm still doing that um but I feel like most people aren't um I mean by the fact that I'm on the PC a lot so I'm exposed more but most people I don't think do that as much on a phone right no one's kind of buying games on the Steam app um wait what nobody's buying games on the Steam app not on the phone I feel like or we're talking about if we're talking about uh I've done it once or twice but yeah but it's not like a popular thing most people were doing it on the PC right yeah yeah yeah like I'm I'm talking about the pure fact if your

attention span is constantly being uh pulled by your different devices right right right um even though I work more than average on the computer uh so I'm constantly exposed to like steam advertising and maybe I pop up from epic games and you know and when I do pick up my meta uh which is a small percentage in a given week you know I check out what's there right but the phone is still dominant in terms of screen time right and uh by that logic alone I don't check you know what's on Steam on my phone as much uh but I'm not I'm also not a mobile gamer right so I don't ever check the app store for the mobile device about what what game is hot right now I don't know if you have the same kind of experience in term of screen division yeah yeah yeah yeah I

def I definitely don't know what's hot in in on the mobile side of things at all usually you know the one thing I did try was the Netflix thing right so I went just to kind of like on the TV because I saw it pop up which is pretty effective right because it every time I try to search for a movie it's like oh want to play this game all right let me try this out so you do pop out your phone right and it becomes a controller so they did do that so the at yeah so you scan the QR code to turn it into a controller to connect to the TV so you're not playing the game on the the phone you're playing the phone as a controller but I guess it's connected over over Wi-Fi yeah yeah yeah so so they they figured they figured the basically stadia problem um yeah which is cool but I hate using the phone as a controller it's just so dumb it's

like there's no tactile feedback it's there's obviously a lag right there's like a fraction of a lag and maybe they'll get it sort of better later but yeah um I don't see that problem really going away yeah the type of games they have on there right now though like I don't think matters at I hate that game I hate those games man it's like those artsy fartsy it's like it it ruins it ruins your experience of your A game developer in my opinion right in my opinion because I was like because all right let me explain this right I there's nothing wrong with artsy fartsy but because I come from like a background of production in the business of game it's like oh obviously this is a small team they didn't have that much time and resources so they have to make something impactful with the little time they have and you know it's like all right this is about death this is about mental illness it's like oh my God it's

so cheesy you know what I mean in my opinion it's cheesy because it's like I can tell because of your restraints that you're right so I can't turn that off and just simply enjoy the game even though they might be for the Netflix experience a good game I can't move past that right because it's not like it's not a game that needed to exist because I want to make this my vision my way it's like obviously a game made out of what resources had right which I'm not knocking on those games I'm just saying that I can't look past that as a gamer and enjoy the experience it's like ah this was definitely like some a game developer with their hands tied behind the back and they just had to make something right um I think I would feel better if Netflix presented uh both options right the Triple A able a experience as well as those games but I guess it's a slow roll out and maybe they have those in you know they're obviously probably making

those in the background but um right now it's like these iPhone games on the Netflix app and it's like ah I'm not really into this right um I mean I mean there's Teran nil on there I'll big up Teran nil because actually a good game and it's on PC too right so it's a mobile games on PC it's on Netflix I think I think those you know I think that's a great game right yeah um think is Night in the Woods on there too right night Woods is is a good game right so um I wouldn't go artsy fartsy what they what they did was they're like what's some good high quality developers that we could acquire yeah right and get their stuff on this platform that is not very demanding yeah so that we can slowly roll out the system right and and what we're trying to do here right and so it's like a really slow approach to it which I which I recognize and really respect you know what I mean um and and

so you know the games that are more your speed might show up later right yeah but um but but uh this is a really I think it's a really smart way like how to deal with the the start you know what I I hope they have the uh roadway to make that work like the only thing I'm worried about is like they if they play it too safe with these low impact games games and immediately don't see the data they might cut it off you know what I mean uh because the return on the the the the the the stakeholders the the investors pressures like yo you've been doing this for a year and people are playing it for a minute you know what I mean um so even though I respect in my opinion they're doing the opposite of stadia but even stadia didn't even release anything right they just cut everything off completely uh I kind of wish that that uh this slow

launch included a little bigger game you know just to kind of like the only thing I've seen them do successfully right was the GTA re-release right and that because when they re-released the GTA 3 Vice City on the phone right yeah it beat all this other crap that they have by Miles right it completely dominated uh their all their games and I was like yeah exactly there you go do more of that you know what I mean so like that that to me is like do more of that if you want real a process it is a process they have all the money in the world they've been sitting no no know Google has all the money in the world and where stadia at today right right like so so so all the money in the world

don't mean nothing right it's about about your strategy and how you want to reach the people and all that and yeah maybe the the GTA angle was like the next yeah step you know like that they're going okay let's do a little bit more popular game and see what's up and at the end of the day it's got to be like Game Pass right there's small games on Game Pass there's RC FC games on game pass as you so say right but then there's also the highest quality biggest budget games on Game Pass right you need a variety of content to reach all the gamers you want to reach well you brought up Game Pass and I have this question about that all right so mayor Lords was on Game Pass did boners on on on PC right yeah it was a replayable game so I think because of that reason Game Pass worked because it served as a demo and you know it didn't ruin the single player experience the

other game that got released um hell's blade recently right yeah we all know it's a magnificent high quality game right uh the past week a lot of knocks on it right uh and then the conversation on X Twitter whatever has been the back and forth of like is Game Pass good for games right uh no Okay carry your thoughts well here's another thing right just to add on to that xbo box routinely is still struggling with the data of whether this ruins game sales because Call of Duty was I don't know if it's been announced but they were considering about releasing Game Pass for next Call of Duty but we talked about this like why are you killing your cash cow it's working it's probably the only thing making you a billion bucks like why would you mess with that right so let let me know your thoughts about what's going on isn't war zone a multiplayer where all the money that like like there's the initial yeah base price for

Call of Duty which is yeah it's Bonkers because like how many units is Call of Duty push out right yeah um but like all the money is multiplayer and and war zone right like that's where people keep playing are paying money and paying battle pass and doing all that kind of stuff um I I would love to see the numbers on that you know because I think that's where a lot of money comes from yeah um at at the end of in the case of Call of Duty for sure um like I think Game Pass is good for gamers where they're like oh I could try out games and demo games a day and date soon as they come out I could check them out that's crazy right um but I do think it's bad in terms of like I like Microsoft is obviously losing money on it yeah right like I don't I don't see how they could be making money on it right um because you know they're paying for these games to come to the platform platform uh and they're putting up their own games on

there that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars making right and are giving away to game yeah sure like in some cases some of these games still sell but but how much is Game Pass eating into that like yeah I think all of us want to see what those numbers are but but it can't be good right um and like another source of just Limitless games to play yeah for for very if you ask me very cheap price yeah um is it's kind of Bonkers right and and of course like when the price is so cheap you have to grow the user base yeah how do you grow how do you grow user base oh more more games more the highest quality games oh we just bought Activision put all their stuff up on there you know what I mean right um and it just seems It's unsustainable right and and the chicken doing it but here's the thing as long as bar graph goes up it's okay

right but eventually bar graph is going to stop you know when you say barh going up you're talking about subscribers or what subscribers yeah like like Hey we're having growth growth is growth is good right but like in this current climate and I think that's why you're hearing of Microsoft is scaling down and fire Xbox is firing people and and scaling down um something has to give right because like the stable of games that either have come out or are out are not bringing in the money that they think I wouldn't I wouldn't immediately run and say oh this is all game pass's fault yeah because on like a lot of the games are releasing are Bid right but but uh you know what I mean right but um but it's it's probably a mixture of both those things right just just mid games that are not really grabbing people's attention like how games from Sony do yeah and and the fact that oh I

could try I could try it out on Game Pass and see that it's mid yeah for free and and then decide if I want to buy it or not the sad thing is that I feel like if Ninja Theory was under Sony's camp and they released hellblade it would have been another God of War franchise for them yeah H gu is good man yeah I know it's good the quality and the the story behind it a small team that like survived you know the transition and you know with the first game and made a name for themselves like I feel I hate when people do that because Ninja Theory had a name for themselves before yeah they had a long list but you know that transitional period sword Heavenly swords bu game yeah yeah but they had to reprove themselves because of the conditions of the industry and just where they were uh because hell's blade one was mostly like self- financed right just to kind of like a tech demo that became a game right M like I um I hate

it because I don't want Sony to be Sony Nintendo to be the only Fighters left right I think it's healthy to have like this three trifect consoles always battling out but like Xbox I feel like are are doing like the most num schull moves like they're cannibalizing themselves uh like unprovoked right they're just like Sony just standing on the sideline just watching Xbox burn them themselves like they're like dousing themselves with gasing like lighting themselves up like the economics of Game Pass makes no sense like I feel like within the first year they should be able to see the numbers and this is the Asian coming out of me it's like yo you know if you're spending if you're spending $2 and you're getting $1 back stop you know it's was like no no no let's spend more the whole of the whole of 2020 and 2021

when when stock market was going crazy and the economy was going crazy that's all it was it was like hey you guys are losing a ton of money yeah but revenue's up you know let's hire more people revenues up and and we're seeing the effects of that now right and and I think a lot of this is driven by the kind of the same mentality of like let's let's grow grow grow grow Netflix same same thing you know and then like you said they were like you know what enough of this freeloading on the passwords cuz now we need to continue to grow and yeah Revenue not people we need more subscribers to grow the revenue and one way of doing that is to is to uh enforce the password stuff yeah but they have always had that in the back of their pocket of like oh we can yeah increase the stock price by doing this just wait that's why and that's why they did it that's why they did it you know number but Netflix was the original Visionary that saw streaming as

the future they continued that path they outlasted in my opinion all these copycats with original content keeping their subscribers and it became like in every household the staple of you have a TV you got to have Netflix right like I just don't know anyone that's like no you know I get my satisfaction from just Hulu no right but like all these competitors like like even with Xbox is kind of like the uh the outcome of this um let's be like Netflix right the Netflix of games right and they're the last I feel stubborn that that is losing money in the streaming game and not giving up like I feel like Disney Hulu Max uh like basically peacock like all this streaming I finally realized oh this streaming thing is we're making no

money from this like we need to start licensing our IPS again right because we definitely make money in that we spend no resources keeping the servers up and people pay billions every two years just to play back our IP and then in the end you know the brand recognition of those TV shows they like NBC or whatever right the like I feel like every stream like even Apple are realizing like oh yeah let's go back to like just making shows and selling it to Netflix uh except for Apple ain't doing that apple apple is its own beast but they're you know they have so much money that they can probably Outlast everybody they have so much money right that they can do whatever they want they do have good content like Hulu has good content right like there's a lot of good content on all these streaming not to take away because you know they have money and they pay

for talent and talent uh was on a shopping spree right it was a it was a employees market for them right yeah yeah so they can you know it was great for them but now I feel like Xbox is kind of like this didn't pay attention to all this and still going about it as if like we need to be the Netflix of gaming it's like no man Netflix is becoming a Netflix of gaming real soon and they'll do it way better than you obviously I mean they're rolling it out and they're making money and I know so many people working on these secret projects um over at Netflix that they haven't announced and they're taking their time and they're not sweating it which also tells me oh they are spending their money wisely because by now stadia uh lifetime shut down twice you know just like just like just like talking about making gains but at Netflix they're fine so like I'm hearing these things and Xbox the the saddest thing that I'm

seeing too is that they're not maintaining their own first party quality like Halo uh you know they you know uh well Destiny was Activision it was never Xbox thing but like uh you know uh Bungie was closely yeah and Microsoft relation but that's gone I mean what other first party game the forza I haven't heard a new Forza you know they they destroyed yeah they destroyed diluted their first party titles like Hells play is supposed to be a flagship title and they released it on on Xbox game pass right I when you open Game Pass when you open up Game Pass though the whole background is just hellblade right the whole that is the dumbest thing it's a sixh hour narrative experience I mean YouTube already ruins it for narrative gameplay and then Xbox like let me do you one better you know it's like like

why would everyone want to want to play this game if you can watch it at the same time just rent it you know it's like you're ruining any chance for anyone to buy this game uh because it's not even available on Steam right is it no no it is it is it is but why would I want to buy it on Steam if I could go on Xbox because you because you don't believe in Game Pass right if and like and and no that's if it wasn't I would have bought it on Steam like honestly just to support yeah yeah no and that's no that's the thing right like people talk about um you know back in the day remember when DRM was a thing yeah and people were like oh anti DRM and some are still are and they're like I only buy my games from GG or whatever right yeah um you know and and every step of the way is the Publishers and the developers trying to figure out ways of how can we get people to give us run us our money yeah I mean yeah and um and I think uh subscription services like like

like Game Pass stadia what Netflix is doing is another attempt at like we want to make sure we get our money yeah right yeah and and uh and some people are like but I don't feel like I own the games that I'm buying anymore yeah and so there are some that that will want to push back and and rebel against that and go no I I I want to own the game that I buy right and if and if I buy it I want to be able to give it to somebody else I want to be able to back back it up I want to be able to De all these things with it because it's something that I own right and more and more it's turning you know games are turning into this this commodity this thing that you don't own and you just have the right uh to play right you have the licensing rights to play and um and whether in the long term that will win or not I don't know but I know like a lot of the Publishers and stuff are like kind of pushing that way right

Ubisoft said something along the lines of you know like we don't want you to own your games so something something like that right and then everybody was like all up in arms about what he said right but I think it's it's it's obvious that's what all these companies want right yeah it's really obvious yeah yeah because monthly you g to pay monthly and we have you forever yeah rather than rather than you just buying Madden once a year yeah that's 60 bucks the hell you pay our service 12 bucks a 12 bucks a month for a year and that's mad's covered yeah you know more than right so again I I gotta give props to Sony I mean they figured it out like I have PlayStation Network the surface is you know pales in comparison to the Game Pass right um in terms of just UI capability and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but you know I'm able to at least go on there and see old PlayStation 2 titles three titles it's

like oh you know once in a while it's basically having an arcade machine you know that plays very uh certain type of games um and it's it's a it's a nice to have add-on right which for that price still justifiable you know uh for like 60 bucks a year or whatever uh you still have this Library games and if you want to go take a stroll on memory lane uh it's cool to kind of boot up Bandicoot or whatever right uh so I at the same time they're not devaluing these Blockbuster titles they're still selling I'll say this I'll say this give it time give it time you think that son's gonna go and why am I yeah ask me why am I saying that yeah um four years ago I probably would have told you a Sony game would never touch a PC yeah right maybe years ago I would have told you that right that's obviously not true today yeah why you

like you people should ask themselves why right and it's obvious why these things cost a ton of money to make right and you don't want to be able to reach as much people as you can and there's no Hardware limitations for you know like the PlayStation and the Xbox are just PCS these days so like the porting cost and porting effort is not as much as it was back in the day yeah right and what what you mean I can I can take this Blockbuster game that every Sony person loves and plays yeah and everybody knows about this game actually but then they're just not in our ecosystem oh let me go to PC and I could reach a whole next it's brilant yeah and and increase Revenue increase sales in doing so right and when that's tapped don't be surprised to see um something else down the line right yeah um so I I think I think when it comes to

it at the end of the day people want to reach as much Gamers as they can yeah right and and also guarantee some sort and that's why Game Pass people like yeah sure you're G you would to guarantee a certain amount of sales so that my game is profitable and like I make my money back and all that sure go ahead you know what I mean um like develop is good for developers in that way um but it also kind of it is good for users in in that way but in general like it's it's kind of bad for the industry I think it's bad too man like I think Sony it finding his second life because this is probably the first Sony console I never own I don't own a PS what is it five I don't even know it's on a five now right yeah like what number is it yeah yeah what I have no idea but like because they're pouring it into steam I'm I'm buying them now like the God of Wars uh the re since um go sushima like I've been wanting to play that now it's

out there it's like all right great now I can have it they're still being kind of stubborn and doing that like a year later or multiple years later but but I think it's smart it's smart all all I know is I I I could see that dwindling down yeah yeah I think I think they'll probably do simultaneous release most likely right uh because if people want to buy the console they'll buy the console but people like me is like I don't feel like buying the console I'll wait for the PC uh I I don't think there's anybody on the fence anymore and I agree they probably realized that and be like let's just release it dude wherever you want to get it get it it's a Sony production right and maybe there's a plus with the hardware of why uh you should have the hardware but other than that yeah yeah and I think I think the one reason too why Sony's not releasing that day date right now it's like yeah we don't want to cannibalize those sales right um and they it might be right when you look at what's going

on with Microsoft and everybody's like oh Game Pass is cannibalizing sales right yeah yeah their own sales right um so maybe there's some truth to that like if if Sony did put their games on PC people less people would buy would care about their eego they're doing fine so I'll give them credit with that they got some kind of insight that that's telling them like this is working I think end of the day it's like content is King right they just make good stuff right and people are going to play it wherever it is you know so I don't even know if I would be too worried about that no Sony's fine like I'm I'm just comparing the two because like obviously one is working and one isn't right it'll help if Microsoft pay attention to what Sony's doing Sony's definitely paying attention to what Xbox is doing and just doing the opposite I do want to bring up this one thing right steam yeah this is the funny thing right even Xbox having Windows having all this access this they're like the only uh

company that don't have their ecosystem in in check right they don't have any eales everything's so separate right because even steam in terms of PC market is dominating on Windows like Xbox Windows or whatever their Marketplace is I don't even know like I don't even buy anything from their Market you know there's nothing oh they let they let steam do that though because they didn't care about their but steam does it so much better right they have dude also remember when steam first came out yeah do you remember when steam first came out yeah it was terrible you remember it wasn't terrible it was just as good as it is today which you know they added new features right but it was just as good as it is today but everybody was like no I wanna I want to have a actual CD I don't want to download my games that's right you remember that you remember when halflife came out and you had to install Steam everybody was pissed right like people were pissed about that right yeah so um so visionar right yeah so they're ahead of they were way ahead and then at the time

everybody's like Microsoft like you need to kind of do this too and Microsoft's like nah we don't care about games you know like or we don't care about games on on the on the Windows platform numerous times people were like PC gaming is dead yes numerous times people were saying this but it's growing right now over the years right and it's growing right now right but there's many years people were like PC gaming is dead the death of BC G yeah consoles are King right and and I think money just looking just counting as away the chel m and Microsoft bought into that for a long time and then they finally realized like oh wait a second maybe we should like care about the platform that we idiots games on it right what's going on over there and once they finally did that you can see they've made some strides but still like like steam is such an entrenched foothold right it's it's going to be hard to tople that epic is even

struggling to tople that right yeah that's the funny thing is like Netflix and steam are the leading platforms for these examples right and yeah epic gam store I have so many games on Epic besides maybe playing fortnite with my kids sometimes I haven't played a single game on that thing like I haven't really I just collect and I know it's there free games yeah I have the Batman trilogy there I have everything I have the Tomb Raider Trilogy because they gave it away for whatever reason like this is the this is like the school of Xbox it's like hey man spend $2 and get $1 back school of Economics it's like why are you guys doing this like how are you making money and then years later what what did I say years later it's like hey man it seems like we're not making any money epic starts firing everybody cutting off invest invest in user acquisition right you have to invest it's stupid man I think it's like people

fell in love with the idea of Silicon Valley right without knowing the reasoning behind it Netflix became Netflix because they saw the future of streaming and it wasn't DVDs and they did it when people were annoyed with it right when Netflix were like doing their streaming people didn't like that they was like give my DVDs dude uh it was a it was a hard right was one of those people yeah of course but like uh the way Xbox the way that uh these other companies are are copying uh like epic game store with their 12% it's like oh that sounds great how's that working for you like I haven't heard any Mega success from these first parties that epic published which well they finance a bunch of project right yeah which one which one was published by oh Alan Wake to wasn't

that published by epic yeah check out the sales on that dud that's a huge success though that's a huge it was not a huge success alen it's a critical critical yeah because remedy are great developers but the people that were publishing it did not do a good job did they right they that game to me should have sold a lot more again epic epic yeah yeah like the sad thing is like esteem and Sony right like any of those games that flopped are critically highly rap if they somehow were in those camps I felt like they would have done a lot better the same way that hell's blade if that was a Sony exclusive it would have been a God of War franchise right no doubt right um because the care the promot around it the hype I mean the quality of the Sony brand will

Propel those game sales uh and not and not putting it out for free on their stupid game it's actually so sad that they published Rumble verse love that game it's gone um epic right epic published it epic published them yeah Fall Guys epic published fall guys bought they bought fall guys after but their team is demolished uh from what I've heard and and also like I heard things about dauntless as well things aren't going so well over there so um so yeah yeah yeah but this is what I'm saying it's like the Silicon Valley mindset is killing the game industry and I'm I'm putting Microsoft under that umbrella and and all always epic is doing that like yeah what have we heard from epic that has been successful in any of this new like altruistic in my opinion fake

altruism uh basically to sell more fortnite right because everything they do is to sell more fortnite it has nothing to do with anything else right well yeah it's to lock you in to lock you in to play fortnite system like here's Allan Wake 2 play more fortnite you know it's like that's a that's and it sucks because it's such short-term thinking and we're losing like these great IPS uh if under different conditions and not even changing the game just marketing conditions it would have Excel and it would have been a staple uh the same way the max bang tool was and I think it's just hard right because there's just so many games out there it's just hard I don't think it's hard I think it's just people just being dumb I really do think it's just like I I think about it it's just people just don't understand the consumers um like I I'm I'm not knocking on game it has its value but it doesn't

have to you don't have to day one like I you know what it is it feels like Phil Spencer trying to save his job and justifi he's like he's so in the hole with game path he like throw more into it you know the same way that like if you were doing something great that has nothing to do with Game Pass I was like I'll put it under Game Pass to kind of like you know you know what I mean just to make my idea bigger better just to pump up the numbers you know I mean I feel like that's what they're doing right now just to kind of cover like the mistakes right so they're throwing a great game like hell's blade uh under the bus in my opinion like the way they did that game and that team Ninja Theory is still dirty like it didn't deserve that like that is like a such a darling story in the game industry that that team um like the techn ology they put behind it the the the production quality

like it has AAA written all over it and the way they just release it for free basically just it's not that type of game it's a narrative game like why would you put that it's like it's like back in the old days it's like here's a six hour demo what how long is the game six hours I was like why would I why would I like why would you not think that would hurt sales you know what I mean and they do but it's more like let's sell Game Pass you know um and it's completely not understanding you know what game sales are like in nowadays right um the one thing I do want to mention and this kind of Rose into our last topic so I got to talk about steam right the funny thing about steam how successful it is that they just now what it feels like 20 years into steam right or more they they re they they they had a disclaimer saying that your library

dies with you did you see that that you can't pass that account to like it's a problem they never thought they had to think about but now they have people dying and so people are asking like can I give that to my son it's like no it dies with you I'm kind of half and half of how I feel I mean in in a way it's like why can't I just give him my account you know what I mean it be the same thing like should be your should be your prop but that's the thing right your account isn't yours right right to give to anybody yeah there's a work around still right you're borrowing you're borrowing right the the access to it for now and once you're dead hey the license is over it's that's ours you well you know I can roll it over in my will like how how good are they at tracking that down but I'm bringing that up because it was pass prob your best will yeah yeah I I'm I'm going to dude I have 200 games

in there dude my my grandson should be playing this put in an arcade machine but uh I'm bringing this up because one of the rumors that I got that kind of scared me because I'm so anti- Microsoft right now is that Microsoft was in the rumor mill buying valve again and this popped up recently for 16 billion I don't know if you saw that and I'm sure there was some weight behind that I did I did shopping around like oh my God they're going to fire everyone at steam okay so two things two things two things one one Microsoft has probably wanted to buy valve for for a million for a million years right like let's just be let's just get that out of the way yeah uh number two I can't think of a a quicker way to kill any company yeah right then for Microsoft to buy them I just cannot see that going well at all yeah like all ever and three because it's still a private company right like there's a few people

that are in control of all the things yeah and I don't see them ever ever making that decision maybe selling to somebody else right but do Microsoft I I it's the worst company to give it to I can I can never see that happening in a million years right but of course Microsoft wants to buy a valve like every day of the week like you know what I mean um this is what I mean knock out the door every day be like hey but like I feel like they're so bad with their Microsoft economics right now right that to cover their tracks and mistakes they're just buying companies like Bethesda and they fired a bunch of people recently I don't think it's a govern mistakes it's literally content content's hard to make I I get content's hard to make but much of it if they're PR if their priorities Game Pass here's the thing it's it's it's a it's a

it's a shredder that's just like bleeding money right and they're like and they's like oh we're running out of things to throw in there let's throw and buy it's like it's it's like just stop it's like self-destructive do you see how long that court case went on for the Activision Blizzard cork case right like Microsoft was like no like we to have this because they know like they were going to die out yeah the content's not there and it's it's like one one team making a game like five six seven years later is when the game is popping out you need to have this stuff staggered you need content in the pipe but this is what like I'm so worried because they're they're spending $2 and they're making $1 back like this has a short tail before they have to buy another valve right and their Solutions just spending yeah they're trying to spend

more than they waste which is which is what they've been doing for years and like this valve thing scares me is like dude what are you guys doing are you trying to destroy yourself completely this reminds me of something else that I will not talk [Laughter] about like Microsoft like it or not with all my criticism about them they are an important staple of the game I mean just the fact of the two years alone the they're leading the pack in terms of layoffs right now right and that is having a huge impact for the next three years of where these developers going staying uh or or or or even mentoring right newer students they're gone right and Microsoft is a big part of that blame and um they're on this buying spree and I I hope Gabe isn't that bored to give into that which I feel like he doesn't

want to and hopefully he keeps steam within his family and treat it like in andout right just pass on to his kids to run the place I mean by now it must be like run itself right I mean what they've been like small forever and it's like a multi-billion dollar Money Maker uh yeah and they're like kind of leaked like their next game but like they don't even care you know it's like yeah it's out there we'll work on something maybe maybe not who cares it's like Team Fortress for the you seen that like their little gameplay with robots and stuff right um they're not making another well all they do is just make make games in the back but like they're not making another game man they're not trying as hard right if it's cool they'll release it if not but I'm really worried about this Microsoft stuff because they're definitely they cannibalize themselves

right to relate it to Fallout which ironically they own now but they have nothing to do with it that's the funny thing right but they'll take credit for it it's like look look at we're making movies now yeah let's do that on Game Pass it's like it's it's a show it's like oh never mind but like the same way they cannibalize in the vaults right uh they're starting to buy companies to cannibalize them to kind of like basically until Phil Spencer gets fired man I feel like that staff is on the brink of getting canned the way things are I really do like in the next somebody I think somebody did mention that like on Twitter or somewhere they're like it's time to change that we look at Phil Spencer's performance and make decisions right yeah um somebody somebody was saying somebody was saying that recently

right um and I was kind of like I mean you're not wrong but but at the same at the same time it's like you know you know I can't even remember when Phil Spencer started that job it's been in that job so long it's such a staple obviously cares about games you know um he can't run things I can't I can't imagine who Microsoft would put in this place but I mean there must be some kind of timeline graph by now when Phil Spencer took over and since then all their first party there was some Glory there was some Glory there for a bit you know um it's just really in in this last 10 years that's a long time bro yeah may maybe last 10 years it's it's been kind of like I don't know guys you know what I mean me what first party Microsoft game still stands high that they didn't buy right what what first party

like Halo I guess Forza but Halo and Forza been suffering Forza Horizon Forza team got hit with layoffs I mean every team that hit for playoff yeah but like Forza was like a untouched team it's like a proven like NBA 2K franchise right it's like just release every year and it's good people buy them we have a stable fan base it's it was every every other whatever yeah but they were like kind of like it's Forza or Forza Horizon right but they were like yeah getting more uh recognition than the Gran Turismo like when that happened when Forza was better than gr turism I was like whoa you know that that is impossible uh but they did it and then they got affected in this like Phil Spencer time era right I was like dude at what point you know you know what that is it's just like guys this number here this number here it has to go down and then they're like how do

we make this number go down right and a lot of times sometimes you make targeted strikes and I think targeted strikes have been going on but then when it's like a mass mass thing it's just like okay we just got to chop it off the top you know and so everybody's going to get affected um and and it sucks right because it's like it's clearly like it maybe you should be affecting teams that are not producing results more yeah but I think they kind of did that when like the whole remedy remedy Austin team was was just gone right yeah um which was just kind of like yo that's that's crazy you're like remedy makes dope games you know yeah like yeah red fall was the thing and and then there's some rumors that like the team didn't really want to make redfall well it shows right because like if you don't really want to make something product's going to suffer because the passion is not there you know what I mean yeah them getting rid of Arcane not Remy Arcane Austin sorry yeah I I messed up on that it didn't happen that long ago right Jesus

Christ that's that's the esteem I hold them in though I I can't tell them apart from or Arcane no I'm surprised by that move too one one bad game you get rid of that many talent I I don't think that's Justified it's um like what I see what they're doing with Microsoft is what I'm starting what I fear for the rest of the industry this this over correction because Microsoft as a quality studio is gone right they got rid of like these talents and then somehow they think these tentpole recognizable brands are are going to make themselves and they haven't been able to recover like this past 10 years I can't remember a Microsoft game being a mega hit right um on its own right right um and Game Pass sucks you right so like they haven't done anything right and uh so what I'm seeing is that the rest of

the industry is kind of following that formula and will start seeing the same type of problems right uh where their games are not selling as well or they're going to start questioning like why isn't fosa you know doing you know I feel like it's going to be the same type of because all the people Visionaries essentially are gone um I I'm I'm really kind of curious and scared what the next three years look like for games from this overcorrection like I think the ramification of this overcorrection will be felt was last game for for a lot yeah less quality games yeah L games 100% yeah um but yeah man that that's pretty much it we uh there's a lot but um hopefully things get better by next round table but this just awful news it's becoming like we haven't really

talked about great cool things because it's just so much terribleness happening yeah I think right now I think it's it has slowed down I think I think right and so like at least it's I I don't expect all summer long to hear about more people laid being laid off thankfully I'm hearing about people getting jobs I I am hearing that more I am seeing that a little yeah but I do know that Microsoft and a couple other studios are are kind of holding on to layoffs at least one big one left um which sucks because it's half the year already it's like Jesus Christ so that needs to stop completely for it to start really turning around and I think everyone is kind of really hoping that happens before the end of the summer right Jesus uh so anyways thank you thank you Ray for stopping by as always you can find him on X or Twitter water as look at the

Linked In description below conversate uh jump on Discord uh and let's have a chat I'm always looking at like next topics for our next round table and you guys feeding it in Discord or any other way that you can find me is always helpful uh see you guys next time lat thank you [Music] [Music]