Finance-Driven Metrics for Mobile Publishers

Uh in this case, you know, we're making what 50% of the of the expected um uh LTV is made within 30 days. And then the the the whole LTV recovery horizon is around 180 days. So, basically, you make half your money in the first 30 days, and then the other half in uh over the next 5 months. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Tangent ROI 101. I'm Roman from Tangent, and today I'm joined by Martin McMillan. Hi, Martin. Hi, Roman. Thanks for having me on. Uh so, yeah, I'm Martin McMillan. I'm the uh the founder of the Mobile Finance Collective. Um and also help um help uh gaming and app studios raise debt capital, which is my day job. Uh thanks for joining, Martin. Uh what is our topic today? I know you came

prepared. Yeah, so we're we're going to talk about um alternative metrics for for founders, for UA teams, and for finance and for um finance teams. So, uh the this is all turfed up by our community, which I'll um explain a little bit in a second. Just a different way of looking at user acquisition metrics through a much more kind of rigorous financial lens. So, these aren't This isn't the typical kind of you know, ROAS type of discussion. This is a This is putting our finance hats on and looking at the same data, um but with a different uh with through a different lens. Awesome. So, where I got into this, uh Martin has posted on LinkedIn about half-life metric. Uh initially, I thought you were into gaming. I I'm not sure if you know the the game. I thought, "Okay, Martin's sharing a review on an old game." But, it turned out to be a a new metric. Are Are Are this metric? Is it Uh yeah, I I I so. This has been This has been brewing for a while, so um

yeah. I mean, look, let let let's get into it. May Maybe I'll just I'll give a quick uh quick intro to um to to who we are, what the MSC is. So, this is something I started as a uh it's like a a passion project, if you like, last year, but uh we've grown to like 35 members over the last uh 8 months, and it's a community for um It's really community for whoever is running the finances of a studio. So, larger studio that may be a CFO, or it could be head of finance, it could be COO, or very often it's the founders at the earlier stage. The founders are obviously um super focused on on everything. So, um what we are uh all about though is financial content. This isn't um future of games or anything else. This is just like looking at all of this um all of these topics perhaps in games uh through a financial lens. So, our our kind of mantra here is we're curating the content you won't find anywhere else um in the industry. We're also lucky enough to have like a superstar set of mentors. Um so, one of the things I I recognized in

the early days that um that most people don't hire a CFO until way sort of later um stage, generally sort of 10 plus million dollars of uh of revenue. And then, even when they do, very often those CFOs have come in from outside uh outside the gaming industry or from the from the app space. And therefore, there's a huge learning curve, right? So, they may be super competent CFOs in SaaS or tech or private practice or anything else, but as soon as you transplant them into um into all these different metrics and cohort analysis and LTV predictions, there's a lot to learn. Now, there was no community, right? If you work in user acquisition or ad monetization, there's conferences, community, but for finance, there was nothing. So, this is basically what we've what we set out to change. Uh we're lucky enough to have a um rockstar list of mentors who are, you know, either still with or have left some of the largest companies in the space like um like Supercell and and Glu and so on. Um who are happy to give up a

little bit of time to mentor some of the other community members. So, yeah, we've got lots of uh active discussions. Excuse me and and we're we're teasing out some really interesting uh kind of new topics. Um one of which uh obviously we're going to talk about today. Nice. Uh how do people can learn about the community? So so the best way is to reach out to me directly on on LinkedIn uh or Anna Nikolina um is running the community on a day-to-day basis and I'm uh I I generally help with sort of content curation and pulling people together. So, um yeah, LinkedIn is is the best way uh or our website is mobfin.co. Okay. Um as well. We'll leave a links in the description to this video for those who are interested. Sure. And that's a half-life metric. Yeah. So So, half-life, the concept really sort of borrowed from nuclear physics, right? And this has been you know, we we've been talking about this within the community the need to have a more relevant metric

uh than ROAS um because essentially what you're looking at doing is making more informed investment decisions around UA. Um So, half-life is deceptively simple in in nature. It's basically you know, rather than um the the time taken to to decay half the radioactive activity is the time taken to achieve 50% of the predicted LTV of a user cohort um expressed in a number of days. And that may seem very uh simple and you you wonder why it's relevant on the face of it. Um but there will will um will will go into some of the details as to why. Um The reason for doing it is obviously we just spotted this huge disconnect um in really I think most gaming studios um that we come across there's a disconnect of understanding between the finance and UA teams. And it comes down to a lack of understanding of each other's world. The marketers, the UA folks are very focused on you know, ROAS

metrics and and trying to achieve, you know, trying to achieve break even. But the finance folks have got you know, a whole different set of things to juggle and not just uh you know, break even on music cohorts, but it's the overall um overall the business to run from a financial perspective, but also the when you get under the hood looking at it through a financial lens there's a lot of things um that they that they need to know about user acquisition as well in terms of um you know, how how these things monetize, etc. So really what we're trying to do here is is to give a high-level metric that understands helps everyone understand the investment opportunity offered by paid user acquisition rather than just a pure ROAS number. There's a there's more detail under the hood. I see. And you have a predictive LTV there. Um Is it the target? Or because it might arrive depending on the cohort, right?

Yeah, of course. I I I don't want to get too down a rabbit hole. I mean, you could call it predicted, expected, you know, whatever else. It's just like what are you expecting to make Okay. Got it. Got it. or from a you know, from a set of cohorts or whatever. So like whatever your LTV metric is, maybe you haven't maybe you don't have enough data to predict exactly where, you know, where the ball is going to land whatever, but it's it's um it's what you expect Okay. Got it. And is that going to be, you know, um well, first of all, let's look at convexity, right? So convexity again um could basically you know, it's used a lot in bond maths and so on, but it's basically fancy word for saying the shape of the LTV curve. So if you think about um an LTV curve typically in free-to-play gaming or uh or or or most other scenarios that use paid UA, it's not a straight line. It's not a straight line between zero and and LTV. So, you know, what typically happens is um it's like really like an inverse of retention rate. So, you see you see see

people playing the game or using the app and so on to start with. They most of the money is generally um uh accrued most of the revenue accrued accrues fairly uh quickly depending on on genre, of course. And then, of course, the curve flattens off. And this is something that you see in all different genres of games uh and apps and so on. So, what we're interested in here is how, if you like, what the shape of that curve is. Is it sort of close to linear? I just sort of ticks up. Or do you have a um you know, much more pronounced curve where, you know, a decent chunk of the money's earned um more quickly and then it flattens off over time. So, obviously, you need to you need to figure out how where to call it. Um but again, the the expected, predicted, whatever is uh is a is a whole um uh whole can of worms on its own. So, we're going to we're we're not going to go there today. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, the second then um

is the concept of duration, which is just, you know, time um and also then but particularly time value of money. Um so, what I'm what I'm offering here is like two different examples, what we'd call a short duration cohort. Uh in this case, you know, we're making what, 50% of the of the expected um uh LTV is made within 30 days. And then, the the the whole LTV recovery horizon is around 180 days. So, basically, you make half your money in the first 30 days and then the other half in uh in over the next 5 months. Um contrast that then to a like a longer duration. So, this may be a game in like a puzzle arena or something like this where you're not going to really maximize, you're not expecting to monetize in a short period of time. This is going to be over years. So, in this case over 2 years. Um so, here we can see in this example, I've got half of my LTV recovered in 9 months in 270 days.

But then the other half, it takes me uh you know, another 15 months to do that. Mhm. So, when we when we talk about duration convexity, it's a you know, just a fancy way of saying like how long does stuff take to happen and and how does it happen? Do I get money out quickly or slowly? And the the reason to care about that is obviously which we're going to come on to is uh how things are financed, right? So, from a UA point of view, from a a UA manager point of view, you might just think you know, everyone's going to be different. You're going to have cash-rich companies, cash-starved companies. Um but what we always try to encourage people to do here is to think is to think about this through a through an investment lens. So, again, to bring it to life, um uh I sometimes use the the farming analogy. So, um let me just advance the slide. So, think think about it as say you're a hyper-casual, maybe these days more hybrid casual kind of developer, right? So, you're you know, that's your crop.

Um So, you're you know, in this case, you're a you know, the analogy is crop to one of these games which which gets to market and starts monetizing pretty quickly is something like a salad salad green salad cress or whatever, right? So, you you know, you plant the seed, takes a bit of water, you grow it, 7 days or maybe 12 30 days whatever these days. Um your crop is at market, you sell it and it you're either going to sell it or you're not. Um so, you get pretty quick outcomes and pretty much the worst that can happen is the hydroponics fail along the way. You know, your crest dies and you're like, "Well, I'll go and you know, plant some more and it'll be ready in a few days." Something like that. So, contrast the other end of that is something um more like sugarcane. Had to Had to do a bit of research for this one. So, sugarcane is you know, you plant it. Um maybe in a year you see the first green shoots coming up. And maybe in you know, maybe in um well, I said 360, but sometimes it can

be like 2 years before you're actually ready to harvest this crop, right? So, couple of things to think about here. And this is like, you know, puzzle games and word games that got like much, much longer duration um and you know, just just take a lot longer to break even and to ultimately monetize. Now, of course, there's lots of things that can go wrong. If you're talking about a 360 to 720 day horizon, then, you know, you could have things in the um you know, changes in the app, changes in the marketplace and the overall you know, the the UA climate. All of these different things that go wrong. So, you know, in the same way as your crop, you know, lots of bad things could happen to your to your crop as well. The other thing to note is that that crop takes a lot of water to make it grow. So, if you've just planted your sugarcane, uh this isn't this isn't just like sprinkle a bit of water and you get your crop in 7 days. This is constant watering. And the analogy here is like these things take a lot of money. So, if you want to if you want to do any kind of UA at scale and you're spending

whatever, 10, 20, 50, 100 grand a day, it goes it's hugely capital intensive before you start to get the green shoots coming up. So, this is why it's so important to think about, okay, how am I how am I kind of monetizing? How much money am I actually getting back? And how can I feed that into my financial models, but also my my kind of UA decisions in the first place. Makes sense. You You've a lot of research on in the agricultural market. That's highly appreciated. I I did I borrowed this from a presentation I gave in Bratislava about a year ago, but I mean the the the the concept's the same, right? The you know, did something happen quickly or did it take a long time? And then there you know, it's really the question is kind of what kind of farmer do you want to be? What sort of games or uh or or apps are you are you doing? And there's a sort of there's a sweet spot that generally the shorter you can get the break even, then the the greater certainty you get. So,

I'm going to talk about another another metric, and this is not you know, this is not in any way a new metric. You know, people in the investment community have been working with internal rate of return or IRR for short, right? It's how every venture capital fund measures its performance. It's how every um pretty much every investment um opportunity is assessed and uh and and reported uh apart from apparently mobile gaming. Um so, so I found this on Investopedia um and it is basically, you know, as it says, right? It's it's measuring profitability of you of an investment, in this case UA investment, that takes into account the time value of money, right? Um so, let me just uh give everyone an anecdote here as to why this is important. So, most people in mobile gaming uh are um obsessed and focused on ROAS, like breaking breaking even on ROAS is like the the number one goal in life, right? Now, of course, ROAS break even is only

basic way you've made enough money to pay for the ad. No one else has eaten, right? Your company's not made any money. You've just got your money back for buying the ad. So, to my mind, that's where the journey starts, not where it stops. But, um the the really kind of important thing is here that that a lot of UA managers uh don't, you you think in terms of the context of time and they're much more sort of obsessed with that number and it's a binary thing. Did you get it or not? So, let me give you a a real life example. So, I was at a um a conference in Poland about 2 years ago in Warsaw and uh I'm at one of those high conference tables, you know, where everyone's sort of you know, milling around between the the the sessions and talking to two different UA managers. The first one is uh is pretty pleased because he's earning 130% ROAS on his uh his fan campaigns that are working he's predictably been able to um to to to make a 130% um ROAS. He's pretty happy. The other guy

is um you know, very pleased himself cuz he's making 140%. So, he's like, "Yeah, I'm in this game is crushing it. We're making 140% ROAS. It's all you know, all very happy, right?" Which is which is fine until you ask the question, "How long does it take you to make that?" Right? So, it turns out the first guy is in a in a not quite hyper slightly hybrid casually type of game. He's making 30% return, 130% ROAS in 30 days. So, it take it's taking him a month to make a 100 to to make that return. So, put simply, he has a machine that he can make a 30% monthly return on capital. And so, if he can do that predictably and scalably with as much capital as he can, he's got a hugely powerful, you know, you think about the annualized returns of that that's, you know, 360% annual return before you compound it. So, um phenomenal. The other guy who's making a 140% ROAS turns out it takes 2 years um to actually make that. So, on a on a

straight line basis, and obviously we talked about convexity, but to keep the math simple, that is a a monthly return of something like 1.7%. So, first guy's got a monthly return of 30%. The next guy who's got higher ROAS um is making approximately 1.7% on a monthly basis, right? So, this is why this stuff is so important. So, um, all marketers should should look at internal rate of return um, as a metric. And there's a really really simple function in uh, in Excel or in Google Sheets called XIRR. So, you can take a non-linear series of cash flow. So, any cash flow, any date, roll them up all into the function. You It's just an array of of of two two sets of um, uh, two two sets of cells and then will it'll return uh, the internal rate of return, which is effectively, you know, the the profitability or the interest rate, whatever you're doing um, from that. So, um, the the the caveat about using this

in um, in mobile UA is you have to think about actual cash. So, this is when cash leaves the account or cash is returned. This isn't on a P&L basis every day where you every day your cohort is monetizing. So, you do need to be a little little bit careful. But, one one of the other things I actually wrote about recently was the idea of doing a lifetime IRR. So, this is basically where you would take every single cash flow that your game had ever made, every single dollar you had spent on user acquisition, and every single dollar you had made from ads or IAPs or whatever else and then roll that up into one and then you'd be able to look at the effectively like the lifetime return of your game um, through a, you know, much more kind of stringent financial lens. So, um, could be quite an interesting uh, exercise for folks to do if they've got the time to do that. And one one note from me, seems like I think that this also has something to do with like technical hurdles, like why

people do not look at those metrics more often. Like, you need to go to Excel, right? You need to set a function. You probably have all of the templates, Martin, I'm sure. But, even when I look at the we call it time to profitability, like basically a payback, uh and uh I don't know, like we we have it in tension even in like in the free version of the dashboard, but most of the people are still looking only on the LTV and uh ROI metrics. Um so, I guess there is also should be some sort of like advancements in tooling to make those metrics more accessible. Yeah, I think I I've I've had many, many conversations around, you know, why are you not monitoring these things? They're pretty easy to monitor, but you got to understand what you're monitoring. And you got to understand why you're monitoring them as well, which is which kind of brings me nicely onto the you know, how how UA is actually

financed, right? So, it's again, we're we're trying to view all of this through a financial lens, and it's important to understand what's behind it. So, again, this is like learning from the community, seeing who's doing what and how. Excuse me, I'm trying to I'm trying to sort of um come up with some best practices. So, the whether you're the finance lead, the UA person, but everyone around the table should always be thinking about what is their cost of capital. So, if you're going to make the investment decision moving into investing into UA, how much is it costing you to do that? Now, some people may say, "Hey, you know, I'm I'm a hugely cash-rich company. I've got all the money I need. So, the only thing that's constraining me is basically, you know, how much I'm able to bid um and still expect to make money, right? So, it's just the demand economics of user acquisition. And if I'm going to, you know, if I'm going to pay five bucks for a customer where I'm going to expect to make five bucks, then

you know, what's the point of that stage in in doing it? So, that's just the the the the demand economics kicking in. So, let let's take the example of a of a cash-rich company. You're sitting there and you've got, you know, $10 million in the bank or whatever it may be. So, your UA team can do as much as they want. So, essentially there's always an opportunity cost, right? So, if that $10 million are sitting in the bank earning, what these days, maybe three, maybe 4%? Um that's what the return profile of that cash is. Now, you may decide to take it and say, "Look, I'm going to I'm going to take this money. Instead of making 4% per year, we're going to make 40% per year because my my UA is working so good." And that's that's great. Um so, you've got basically instead of making a 4% on cash in the bank, you're making a 40% return on cash in the bank and you don't have to borrow any money. It's all good. Um now, there are obviously other uh considerations, right? So, if that money's just sitting in the bank and earning a small interest rate, then

fine. But, you know, what about if the if the management of the company wanted to make an acquisition or they wanted to divert and create a new game or whatever? So, there's there's a there's a risk and reward profile for, you know, for everything. And um again, it's understanding this opportunity cost. So, then you look at a cash-poor company, which, if by the way, most gaming studios are I've ever come across, even the really successful ones, are still pretty cash-poor. You can be amazingly successful and very cash-poor because essentially you should be if your UA is working, you should be reinvesting every last cent into it if you know that you can make that financial return. So, let's say a lot of cash-poor companies then um turn to external uh lenders um to say, "Look, I've got this UA machine. I'm looking at borrowing money or raising money that is not dilutive equity capital, um but I want to do either a a credit facility, which is debt that's secured against, you know, it could be receivables or even expected

receivables, Or um sometimes they'll do cohort-based financing, which is where where a fine a lender will come in and say, "Look, we will pre-finance, you know, something like 80% of the marketing spend and we'll take a you know, we'll we'll take our our fees back and and money as that as that matures over time." So, um there's there there are obviously a lot of alternatives out there. The thing again that we would also always urge the finance teams, the UA teams to come back to is it when you're comparing these external instruments, you got to compare them on a level playing field, right? Um and so sometimes the cohort financing uh turns out to be a lot more expensive than you might think. You might say, "Well, it's only a you know, it's an 8% fee or a 10% fee or whatever." But you're not really thinking about it as an interest rate. And if you're trying to compare that to a credit facility from your bank or you're not comparing apples with apples. So, the way to make sure that all of

this is done on a fair comparison basis is you use an IRR function to say, "Okay, what's the effective interest rate that I'm actually, you know, paying for capital here?" Now, this this leads me onto a whole new topic. We're actually um I've almost finished writing and I'll publish it next week uh a guide that we're going to put out on the MFC website, uh which is a it's it's quite it's quite substantial. I wrote to about 20 pages already. It's a guide on selecting a UA financing partner. So, what we try and do is to break down all the different models, look at pros and cons, um whether it's, you know, bank financing, non-bank lenders, venture debt, cohort financing. We've tried to have a a sort of like a really deep dive into all of these different models and give people the tools and calculators to figure out effective cost. The the last thing I'm going to say on this is that it's not it's just about alternatives and next

best, right? So, you need to know exactly what your you know, what the cost is, but it's not always just the cost. It's the flexibility of the instrument. And always ask yourself, what's the next best alternative? You might be doing cohort financing that's costing you 50% per annum, but if your next best alternative is raising more equity, it's probably the best thing to do. So, it's just a case of making informed choices. Um and you know, this guide and some of these tools and and again perhaps we can put the um put the link once it's published next week, we can we can we can put the link in the in the comments or whatever on this on this post if folks want to download it. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Um So, the actually on that, so what I did and and I actually this I've included this which is a one of the slides within the guide is try to come up with this idea of a risk-reward spectrum which involves both the half-life metric and um and the cost of capital, right?

So, what I basically realized when I plotted all of these things out is if you've got if you've got a relatively short duration, right? So, this may be maybe a game that breaks even in like 60 days or 90 days or something like that. And you know, an element of a decent amount of convexity in the in the LTV curve, then probably that certainly the most the the cheapest and and most relevant instrument is um something like an accounts receivable facility, right? So, if you're breaking even in 60 days and you have payout delays from the platforms for like for you know, 45 days or 60 days. If you can borrow against that um collateral and then you know, do that quickly, you can recycle that money super quickly. Yep. Um whereas if you you if you're in like a lot much longer duration or longer half life, whatever how you want to think about it, then you know, if it takes you a year to break even and you've got 30 or 60 days

of platform receivables trapped up, then that instrument isn't going to work for you because it it's it's going to move the needle very very slightly, but it's not it's not really going to work. So then you look at a an instrument that is better suited to financing longer duration games or apps. That's where you go more into the kind of revenue based financing, this idea of cohort financing. Um specifically where someone is taking take taking some of the risk on the um on the cohort performance over a longer period of time. Would you like when you compare the things and talking about like cohorts of users, uh do you drill down into the level of uh advertising campaigns or as a wearing your finance hat, you really care about like this is game A and here's the results that I have? Or you would rather look deeper? Yeah, I mean look, you can look on different levels. Ultimately, what you

care about I mean, what you care about is, you know, how much what are we making? Are we breaking even? Are we making money? You care a little bit about where the where the money's coming from, right? So is this you know, um is this a a an app where I've got 90 or 60-day payment terms or 45 days or 30s, whatever because ultimately, if the UA team wants to spend more, then me as the finance person has to make the capital available to them. So I care about different networks and you know, different instruments. I I have I have a lot of things. So I don't I as a finance person, I don't specifically care so much about campaigns. I'm looking at things more on an aggregated level. Um and I think the main the key thing is basically and again, I uh I I I never tire of uh ramming home this point. If the finance guys and the UA guys have got a you know, a good working relationship and a good understanding of each other's business, then then everyone can you know,

everyone's on the same page. One of the interesting things we did a and we did a a panel at Pocket Gamer in London last week. Um many, many companies don't e- and this is even internally don't have a standard set of definitions. Right? So So definitions for, you know, what is a user? What's an install? So the finance guys could be looking at multiple sources of information, none of them make any sense. The UA team are thinking about it in in a you know, similar but different way and a lot of stuff can fall through the track the cracks. So um yeah, we're we're we're working on a on a on a project, a community project around creating a set of almost like a checklist of definitions. Um so we're not we're not trying to not trying to different you know, derive the definitions of what's right and wrong. We don't have any acts to grind, but it's a case of anyone internally between the departments should be aligned and then also externally if the studio is ever going to be sold, it's really useful to have this as part of the data

room because any acquirer's set of definitions is going to need to map to yours. So if you can make that easier for them. So these are just these are just like really simple, practical things that we sort of um we've figured out, hey, this isn't just a problem for me. Everyone around the table has the same thing. So this is the this is the kind of work we're we're trying to do. Yeah, super important. We just had this thing at the beginning of our recording. I I my my definition of predicted LTV is like about like, okay, how do I calculate it, projecting it? And your definition was okay, that's the expected LTV, that's the target. So even here Yeah, and I'll I I you give you another example um that that came up was um one team was looking at um day one retention based on a on a calendar day and the other the other team was looking at it on a on a rolling UTC 24-hour window. And that could make apparently up to 10 points to the

depending on the view of time zone can make 10 points difference on day one retention. So, the like We just did a video on that. Like our We did a video literally about that. So, we we we were just got so tired of that of this sort of discrepancies. Yeah. We just made a switcher so user can switch between those two and compare outputs to outputs. I mean, think how much how much time and money and and so has been lost on something kind of so simple, right? So, getting everyone to getting everyone to really kind of think and be on the same page on this is super important. Yeah, absolutely. So, I had I had I just like a few sort of takeaways um at the end. And again, this is you know, for for for any anyone watching this whether you're in UA or you're a founder or you're in finance, whatever. Um the the key things that we think are really important in into looking at the whole UA opportunity through this slightly more rigorous financial lens. Always

factor in your time value of money. Um nothing's nothing's free. And even if you're a super cash-rich company, then um you know, there's always an opportunity cost. So, you know, capital is scarce. Um second one is the shape of the curve. This is so so important. You you know, if even if you think about if you think about how you're trying to grow quickly, let's say you're in one of these genres where, you know, maybe it takes you 6 months to make your expected LTV, but you get 50% of it in the first month, let's say. That's going to mean that if you you to finance that externally, half half of your money's paid back within the first month. So, it really can have really good economics and you know, understanding the the the shape of this um and that convexity fraction uh function is super important. And then, you know, and three linked to one, right? You know, there's always a cost, capital scarce, there's always an opportunity cost to what you're doing with it. So, you know, sometimes, you know, if you were

faced with the option of saying, "Well, look, I've got this super hot UA uh option, and maybe someone else in the company thinks, "Well, we want to make an acquisition with the same money." Then, you know, just look at your options for financing these things, look at your options for um uh for you know, allocating capital, risk-reward, capital efficiency, all of these different sort of more financial concepts just apply to a gaming studio as much as uh any other business. Great stuff, Martin. Um thanks so much for sharing this. I will You're very welcome. Yeah. We'll link our previous videos that I mentioned about absolute uh relative uh retention somewhere here. Uh we'll leave all of the links uh in the comments and in the description of the video. If you have questions, please also ask them in the comments. We'll ask Martin to look and answer.

This is uh I feel like this is already like a next level when you advertise an app and look at this sort of uh things. Um so, yeah, if you want to level up your game, so that's the way to go. Yeah, definitely check check out the resources on the um we're actually launching a new website next week, and there's going to be a ton of financial resources and content on there. Uh so, whether you're founder, you're a finance lead, or anyone else, that should be a our aim is that's a sort of destination for content as well. And if if anyone's interested in in connecting or finding out more about joining the community, then just please reach out to me directly on on LinkedIn. Super. All right, Martin. Thanks once again. Thanks, Roman. See you. Bye-bye.