Catching up with the Game Industry with Brian Canary | 333

this episode is sponsored by Autodesk what's up everybody before we get into this week's episode I want to shout out for all those that are in our Discord channel uh every week from now on I'm going to give attention to those good people that are following us and giving support in between episodes every Tuesday this one is to Sage recently participated in ludum Dare and have their game up for anyone that's ready to test it it's uh the Jam theme of this one is called limited space it's like snake however your Gathering ORS but you do not touch the wall that's the same color as you it's very interesting uh check the show notes uh for those who want to check it out and click through and and give the love out there in addition I know the industry out there is kind of a bit crazy I do have an episode coming out next week a round table with raid discussing just that be

sure to catch that one also I think it's a little fun to kind of read reviews either good or bad on the Apple iTunes store for the Game Dev unchain podcast uh this one was recently left uh on June 14 2023 by mavilla sc07 shout out uh giving it a five-star review saying no matter the subject you're guaranteed to gain something from every episode can't recommend gev Unchained enough now for those who have the time I highly highly encourage you guys to go on to the Game Dev unchain Apple podcast to leave any review if anything is helpful uh because this kind of helps the podcast reach a wider net of audience out there and I promise you leave it there either good or bad I will read it

on every episode uh and if you have cool projects you have cool things to show cool things to discuss in between weekly episodes hang out in the Discord channel it's a great way to kind of keep in a connection while I can you know blast and use this as a platform your work uh to the listeners out there so thank you again for all the support and on to the week's [Music] episode what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev Unchained the number one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host Brandon Fram and with me a special guest a returning guest Brian Canary did I say that right okay you did just like the bird all

right perfect is good uh so this is the part of the podcast Brian where I let our guest which is yourself to do a quick synopsis of where you've been where you at where you heading before we get into it yeah um I'm a veteran game designer in the games industry I've worked on lots of stuff uh EverQuest Dark Age of Camelot uh Champions online lots and lots of things like that uh recently well sort of recently moved over to the UK five years ago and I've been here at Splash Dage ever since working on stuff that I still can't talk about which is always fun about the industry no worries man uh there's so many things to talk about uh a lot have changed all right I think I don't I haven't talked to you for years now pretty much before coid um yeah we we missed interesting conversations about nft blockchain metaverse uh and now like you know you know RTO you know return to office and

and everyone gen z uh there's so much to dig into I love usually kind of getting the mindset of a designer uh how you're reacting from this AI you know being a big topic yeah so uh I guess my question is how has it been for you uh over there uh I mean has any of these topics affected you guys over in London oh yeah definitely like we've definitely just had a return to office here at Splash damage that I'm at um but the the the icing on the cake there is that that we did have to return to the office this week but we're on to a four- day work week which is great so it's that's that's that definitely sweetens the deal a little bit and it'll be interesting to see how that goes because I've never had a four- day work week so it's it's going to be interesting to see how that feels to not work for five days in a week but uh I think that's that's probably a good compromise uh but I mean I still I I

still see the uh the Allure obviously of of hybrid um it's a lot tougher I think to be collaborative in a design aspect in the beginning of a project over uh o over the over distance so I'm really going to appreciate being in the same room with the people in designing because that that that can be tough at the beginning I mean obviously when you get into production and everything kind of is is laid out and there's only like some adjustments that's a little easier which is what I did with my former project um but the on the one I'm at which is in stolen concept it's it really is good to get everybody in the same room it's it's easier to get align that way it really is yeah for sure I I think um yeah that was with many people I have had on to talk to that was the main issue especially for designers you guys are so collaborative needing that face to-face having the be the ability to kind of Riff Off each other in a room um there has still it's still like a pending

issue uh that I don't think is solvable um even meta trying their best to kind of do the virtual real it's not the same um yeah so kind of hearing you reiterating that just is a good reminder that there are just some things that requires in office um especially the conceptual stage of pretty much anything to be honest any time there's a discussion that he's had um so you returning to office is the idea I feel like your your your your your studio is probably at the tail end of most Studios like a lot of Studios over in the states have kind of implemented this pretty aggressively the last year and a half yeah yeah they take a more measured approach over here that's for sure hey listeners have you ever had that dream where you're surrounded by people who just like you have this itch this undeniable urge to create well from November 13th to the 15th you can tune

into Au 2023 it's the design and make conference where anyone who's ever doodled on a napkin or had a midnight Eureka moment feels right at home we're talking about a Melting Pot of innovators from architecture engineering design and media and entertainment too I've got two sessions I'm looking forward to tuning in and want to highlight first put on your gaming hats because epic game is about to sweep us off our feet dive into a time capsule as I use unre engine Magic to whisp away back to Habitat 67 pixels and Nostalgia all rolled into one and then picture this AI not just thinking but creating discover the genius behind generative AI That's jazzing up the world of 3D presented by Nvidia if your curiosity is even a fraction as picked as mine you need to be there check our show notes for all the juicy details and links pack your creative hats and join the fun at AU 2020 23 happening from November 13th to

the 15th let's not just dream it let's make it so is it because of the fear of Co still running around or is just just you know Lifestyle Changes a lot of people I don't think so I think it's much more that that that they're just they're not quite as reactionary over here in the UK as they are in the states there's they just don't have the that kind of reflex action that you see a lot of when what there's also not a lot of like that that me ISM you know when usually like when one one big group does something then a lot of people follow suit in in in the American Games industry feels like um they're a little more independent that way over here so I think that's why it took so long um also it's you know if you're talking about a country that's the size of California right so it's like it's not quite as H as expansive right you don't have that that many different states and stuff where where all of the um the the minutia of return to office can be different right it's it's it's much more like measured in in

in the same place so I don't think it's quite as as as fractured as as the US is when it comes to that uh you know going into design and the things that are usually thrust upon you uh to kind of implement into a game system right loot boxes years ago I think when we were talking was such a big issue uh where you know microtransaction all those things were kind of like new right feel forced but now it's kind of like more integrated understood uh respected right uh for mutual respect from from the designing standpoint and the consumer standpoint uh there were a lot of things tried in the last few years that were in the same veins right uh nft uh blockchain you know the metaverse you know uh we're kind of glossing over a lot of things that happened the last three years but I would love to kind of hear your thoughts as these were kind of coming in and the aftermath of that what were your opinions and

thoughts I think it's interesting that that um that it really felt like obviously like the live service and and micr CH section and all that stuff was inevitable like that was like it was the only way but you look at this year and a lot of the biggest games are games that don't have any of that I mean Zelda of course they never did but I mean like balers gate uh armored Core six now Starfield these These are big games this is a year of very big games that have none of that so it's it's interesting to see that it's not going away right that that that it's not there's not going to be a CA change and we're not going to see these types of games again and that's I think that's kind of heartening to me that that there there can still be the traditional game and it can still be wildly successful for anybody that's making it it doesn't have to have all those things in it not to say that those things are bad but I I don't think that every game has to have them so that's that's been cool I like that I like that it's that that the game

industry always surprises me and that's another thing that surprised me is that that that that stuff still still sticking around yeah there there was definitely like a momentum shift during pandemic I mean I was starting to notice in the conferences a lot of single player game experiences announced right just out of nowhere just suddenly a return to that where multiplayer for a while was the future or getting the headlines and it was all about shared experiences but I I for whatever reason being alone during Co somehow made people you know you can see this with the remakes there's so many great PS2 oh my gosh Resident Evil remakes like all like it's a comeback of remakes um that we've enjoyed that were proven uh all single player experience kind of brought back and just selling Millions just doing really well uh I think the next big ones well there's a lot right Metal Gear Solid even though you know there's Y without Kima

ATT but I'm still kind of you know deep down I would love to see snaky they remade right um yeah but I wonder if it has some ties with you know um kind of like the entertainment industry because you know you had Game of Thrones back then and then you have Mandalorian and all this is like a linear singular experience but shared through uh commentary and you know week by week people are are are talking about it buzzing it up I feel like it's the same echo of of of that type of response with single player experience because people are the way that people are talking about Starfield I I swear it feels like it's a multiplayer game but like it's pretty much everyone on their couch playing 80 plus hours right um yeah it's true mean it's is it truly single player if if every waking moment you're talking about outside the game with somebody else right if you're still sharing the experience it still feels

that there's a multiplayer this to it Zelda felt the same way when when you started seeing them um do doing all the um the amazing combinations you could do with those systems right and and just that was the I was addicted to the videos as much as the game definitely watching as many videos about how many cool things people were building and how they were they were um just basically mixing the systems in ways that you hadn't expected that was just as compelling to me as playing the game itself what do you think is happened like it just seemed like a light switch moment for all the designs all the games being pitched was a return to a lot of single player experience that I thought was there was a good chunk of the conversation being like single players are dead you know this is forever Dead art yeah I mean Sony still I think if I remember right the most recent stuff they're talking about is it's like 40 or 50% or maybe even 60% of their new development is still going toward that I mean that's the reason why they bought Destiny right they wanted to have a

model that works and so yeah it's I mean it's still there but you're right I mean this there's this ground swell and it pro I would Hazard to guess it probably started out with Indie stuff right because they they don't have it's it's one one of the reasons why is it's cheaper obviously to make a single player game than a multiplayer game but because they don't have that kind of of the risk isn't as big there and you get stuff like Silk song and you get those those single player games that are really big there that shows you that the Market's still there right if they're not if they're not um buying the big ones they're they're buying the small ones and that that's I think that's the reason why you get stuff like um like Microsoft did earli this year I was that uh what was the name of that game that came out that uh that that quick little rhythm game that Rhythm action game uh yeah the anime looking one yeah yeah that one I'll look it up while I keep talking about it I I know what you're talking about I forgot I keep thinking bomb Rush cber Funk but that's the new one but anyway yeah High rush or something yeah something I think something Rush something Rush yeah high

five Rush yes that's it high five rush but like that stuff I mean that's kind of like half half Indie right I mean that's kind of like like a smaller Dev team within the studio but um and I guess also Microsoft they have a little more leeway with Game Pass right they have they have a format and Sony's getting into it now but they have that format where they can kind of do a little bit of those kind of we we kind of missed the B games for a while right you didn't really see like those double A games for a while but but but a place like game passes is a place where they can do that and that's where you get that's where you get the single player stuff coming back I think is is you see that everybody just assumes that that single player is gonna make the money because it doesn't have that that recursive tail right but it doesn't have to have that recursive tail if like you said if everybody's still sharing the game there you go that that's the that's the game still looks bad I still got to play it yeah I keep forgetting yeah yeah it looks great it looks actually absolutely great it's it's a it's a

beautiful looking game but um yeah um I lost my train um but anyway yeah it's I think it's that because it's the the the presumption right is that that because Co-op has that recursive tail right because people are always playing against each other and there's always kind of like that that idea of of the the players of the content right that's that's what that's the cheapness there but there's also the players being the content in watching videos right so that's that's a different venue of it so they're still buying and playing your game um even though it's single player like you said in that social aspect you're still kind of getting the the multiplayer legs that they're looking for and that's that's probably what what has been reinforced over the last year or two yeah I think what people are discovering finally at least the people with the money uh is that there is an expansion of Ip right we're starting Last of Us is like getting Emmy nominations I mean it used to be a joke to have a game IP P's turn into movie

licenses or movies right but there's been such a string of success with Super Mario Brothers a lot of it I I I mean it's obvious but it wasn't obvious before that including the original creators as part of the movie making process uh somehow you know gives value and also you know loyalty to to the IP itself and it's been working and I think more and more creators original creators are are involved heavily not just just standing by on set yeah heavily involved into creation uh which is one of the reasons why I think Netflix is is heavily having like a game triaa IP sectors of their business because they see like this ecosystem um yeah Sony too I mean that's something mean that that's the nice thing about them right is they they are also a media company you about being a game company so yeah they're they see they saw that and they are literally turning out all of their IPs in into those shows now yes yeah Uncharted was a movie and now it's

Last of Us and I'm sureal metal yeah yeah that's still in development for sure I know uh I mean it's cool to have and that a lot of that is coming from a single player you know Universe right story Universe yeah um and uh because it's still well crafted you know a lot of ideas have to be told from beginning to end for for that to happen in a linear format like like a show or a movie right I mean there's no doubt that they can turn like a multiplayer game into a movie license but that usually means that the the lore has to be there uh yeah to make sense but and so single player kind of makes the jump easier uh in my opinion there was a lot of that that's happening that's super exciting and I think you're right a lot of that driven by indeed there was a uh a crowd there uh but I think a lot of it is just uh

the the the the creative directors or the people creating uh or or in charge of these remakes or whatever are kind of just growing into these roles right and we're kind of nostalgia nostalgic about what we grew up playing and I think recreating that too and so we're creating to ourselves in a way yeah yeah yeah we're getting that generation that that played you know the like the the the first Metal Gears or the or the first uh dead spaces right and they're now they are becoming the next next generation of game developers and of course they want to revisit that because that's that's what made their childhood so yeah there's there's definitely a bit of that we're finally getting old enough as an industry obviously we had stuff like Pac-Man and stuff but it's tough to make it it's tough to make a movie out of those old games but we've got we've got video game stories yeah that can be retold in a new generation much the same way that that movies are always getting remade all over the place so yeah we're definitely have have reached that age now which is interesting especially

because there's the there's the the technology aspect right the technology makes it so that it it almost it feels much newer than a new than a new movie right because you've got that it's not only just the story but it's the the way that it's told in in graphics right and also the people that haven't played those games and probably wouldn't because of the older Graphics now will definitely give them shot now right so the player base is only just expanded much much more because of that so I'm sure there's tons of people that played Dead Space for the first time this year that never played them before just because they're like well it's an older game and they play it now and and and now they they enjoy how how good it was and that's absolutely gonna happen for the metal gear games oh yeah it's like oh you guys ever heard of middle gear it's pretty good yeah yeah but yeah I mean the player base have grown so like pretty much everyone celebrities I mean it's it's a lot of it I think the decade

that gave us the Marvel the superhero movies I think this is our decade for games into entertainment they're they seeing this as the next Golden Egg goose egg thing right yeah the way the comic book yeah yeah yeah I read that a few times I like totally makes sense which is why they're heavily invested um and it it definitely you know they're finding a lot of source materials that people are resonating with that that is trans well I mean it's to have billion doll franchises from Super Mario of all yeah that super impressive and I think they did a fantastic job translating a lot of that into a movie um it was fun to watch and it was easy to follow so uh yeah in terms of all the technology that you kind of been hearing the buzzwords right the last two years what were your thoughts about that I mean was it more of those things where like this doesn't have the staying power of what microtransaction or loot boxes I I get

what they were trying to do with that but this stuff is just like unnecessary so it didn't it's got to I think it's just got to prove itself right that's the whole point I mean it's it's always feels like they're jumping to the end right that they're jumping that like this is going to be it and and it's done but it's like well you've got there's a lot of infrastructure there's a lot of of hearts and Minds you've got to win over too um with that stuff it's it's I mean you can only do so much with buzzwords and I think that um meta is a big big showing of that right I mean you can throw lots and lots and lots of money into this stuff but um if you don't have the if you don't have the people and and and have the the the way that games does a really good job of of of knitting that Community together and a game like Ultima Online or a game like Star Wars Galaxies the stuff that Ral costra used to do he got that because he's been doing this this virtual world stuff for 20 plus years um and so U

those those lessons have already been learned and if you don't if you don't take the time to learn those lessons you're G to have the same problems that something like meta does yeah well I'm seeing an image in the background with your bv8 right so I'm assuming you're a Star Wars fan like Ahsoka that whole you know Universe TV series those plot lines are exactly laid out like a video game puzzle you know what I mean yeah oh yeah it's so cool to finally like yeah they're they're getting it you know uh the way it's structured it's so funny to see how the inspiration kind of goes into full loop because obviously games kind of borrow from movies and TV and now TV and movies borrow from games yeah yeah yeah it's just the and oroboros just always continually the always continually a circle yeah yeah that the games feed the movies and the movies feed the games in these days it was really cool to see the beginning of his Hoka basically just feel like uh Jedi Survivor right it's like oh my God it's like so is just playing Jedi Survivor in real time yeah

felt very very much like that yeah it was it was a it was cool it was cool to see that what do you see in the next few years what like this because I feel like some things are figured out some things are being tested other things that are people like you know basically us going into these director chairs going to these creative roles for any of these industries what what is the general outcome that you feel that's going to be happening like do you feel I mean it's already happening where game developers are working in movies now and TV and movie and TV people are going into games uh for a lot of the same reasons you know stability creative reasons whatever yeah um how do you see this all shaking out with everyone's kind of experimenting right now it feels like yeah um I definitely think that it's should it's games are only goingon to get more and more widespread and get you're

good to get more art a tours and stuff in there because it's a type of Storytelling that you just don't get in any other medium you don't get that cooperation you don't get that that world where you're you're not just telling this the linear story you're you're building a world and that has a very personal effect on your audience and and it's very very satisfying when when you do have that connection it's much it's a much deeper connection than than with uh novels or with movies or television just because of that whole world and because people don't surprise you more very often when they watch something I mean sometimes their opinions can surprise you of what you've written or what you've um what you've shown them but they really surprise you with what they do in a game that is it it's amazing to see when you turn it over to them that feeling is really really an an individual feeling it's something you don't see and I think that's it's just that it's the reason why games are so huge right now is just

because it's it's the it's the storytelling of the now like you said it's it's it's this generation and that's what they do the games are the way that we entertain ourselves the most I mean movies you can get some stuff like obviously Barbie's huge and that's a great it's a great story but to live uh in in in the world instead of just actually just sitting there passively watching it it's much more visceral and it's something that sticks with you longer I think yeah another pattern that I'm I might be making it up right but I go with good feeling a lot right I feel like a lot more people are getting back into books lately like just going to Barnes & Nobles and just seeing the library not a lot of people before and suddenly a lot more younger generation are are discovering books again are you getting that as well over I see that I actually do see that a lot yeah um I think that that also kind of is a little bit bit of a a push back from being always online

right by by being in social media because it's it's you're you're not doing that by yourself right no matter what you're doing there you're you're kind of being seen any anytime even just lurking usually they can tell you know who's who's seen post and and it there's something very personal about reading a book right it's just it's just you and your mind and that's there's no influencers there's none of that stuff it's all just it's just it's it's it's kind of discovering yourself a little bit right because you're because you're it's a it's you're forming your own opinion about the the words that you see on the page which you don't get a chance to do that online there the opinion's already been written for you so there's there's a lot about that that's that's novel to this generation I think yeah I I definitely feel to kind of tag on to that I because I think people are are having a a healthy distrust of information uh at this point God thank God but like

yeah personalities for a good period were being crafted by like you said opinions already formed for us uh through media but also through you know online uh online um social networks right that there is like this pull I don't know what it is human nature finally pulling them back to like thinking for ourselves and so you know to me again I'm going by gut I didn't read any paper on this right but it feels like the sudden need of single narrative experiences right and then this this pull into libraries and people reading more books than because again books to me and single player experience were at the same time right headlining you know the death of books right no one's going to readmore it felt like the same perer but now I'm suddenly seeing people picking up a book and not just like the Kindles you know they're actually getting physical books actual paper

books yeah paper books again and it's all happening at the same time and I can't help but feel that it's what you're saying it's just people are wanting to form their own opinions again yeah yeah just by all the Clutter that that's happening just trying to figure out themselves because yeah I do think a lot of the mental health that issues that people are having is that you know they're being fed non-stop with information involuntary information right not just even invation that's everywhere they're going um it's like almost starving themselves a bit of information yeah yeah then the nice thing about a book too is you open it up and there's no there's no popups there's none of that stuff right I mean even even Windows now has all these alerts and stuff that it didn't have just a few years ago you you cannot Escape it you can't escape that little notification that that and I have that that OCD where if I see that no ification I feel like it needs to be that I need to push it

that I need to react to it so that is one another thing about about a book is you don't have that that's you it's it's seriously all in your mind there's no external influence at all so that's that there's there's something to be said about that too it's it it's even though you're deeply using your mind you're still kind of turning yourself off from the world which you know you're truly losing yourself which it's even difficult in video games these days because of all the notifications and the latest battle passes and all that stuff you can't really remove yourself completely from the world even playing your favorite games but you can with a book so that's that's true that's someplace where you literally aren't going to be interrupted at least not digitally yeah it it is a welcome change and I think everyone's finally embracing like old technology old ways of doing things uh I do want to ask you a question all right with um I hope that continues I feel like that's continuing I know for a while we had VR right it

was exciting but I feel like a new dawn is coming with the Apple device which you know they've always been a generational impact with everything they they release their device in particular to anybody that likes technology is super impressive how it would change is still up in the air I think it will you know as soon as some celebrities wear it or whatever make it cool yeah what do you think about that is it is it going to make a change to how we interact with the world a with ar being its focused uh in an official way um to Consumers what do you think I don't know I still think it still looks a little bit ungainly I mean yes it's still it's it's definitely a step forward and because it's Apple it's going to be addressing fashion in ways that that you know meta or back before you know with uh with all the other VR that that they don't address right they usually don't address the aesthetic as much as apple and they do have a lot behind

it but I don't know I still you really have to have that that killer app right there's got to be and it doesn't have to be a game it it has to be something in VR you know or even AR that that everybody just has to have and just everybody just gets and that's been a problem with with VR because it's you still have the motion sickness problem I mean that's no matter what there's still going to be a contingent of people that are that can't do it and also just they feel silly wearing it and we'll see if if Apple can can get over that but there's still a lot of reluctance because of that I mean you see all those videos uh on YouTube of people that flailing around and breaking their TV screens and and the people that are that are Gamers and stuff they're that doesn't matter to them but your regular person the person that that that maybe just barely dips their toe into a phone game or something like that are they are they still ready for that is that is is that is that become Common Place enough for them I don't know though I really thought that we

were all on the right track with that with the Wii because the Wii definitely did things in a virtual way right because of motion controls where everybody felt comfortable doing it but it doesn't seem like that's stuck it seems like that we've kind of moved away from that a bit yeah it's a I I feel like that that's just like a Nintendo problem though because they went for the Wii to the the um crap what's their new one um that they the switch new one yeah yeah I mean they like I still know people that play the Wii for the reason why it's Unique right uh and the switch even though they have the motion control it wasn't their focus it's more about portability right it's definitely like a peripheral it's like a little thing and it just it doesn't feel the same right the having those tiny little uh joycons in your hand is not the same as the Wii remote the Wii remote really had had some physicality to it right and it just it just just it felt a little bit more natural right it f you could imagine um a tennis racket

in your hand a little more with that it's it's a little easier for your mind to bridge that Gap I think than that those tiny little things that just doesn't quite feel the same yeah I mean the the way that market it was completely different you know it was more about you know handheld than than the the motion control and Nintendo gets bored I guess every time it's like we killed it next you know they they never really extend you know I think if they went I mean in a way they they had a misset with Wii U which you know well the funny thing is is they did right they had a mistep with the sales but that's still a dry run for the switch I mean that that tablet in your hand that's that usability there yeah they got they got what they wanted out of that that data right out of that data and the usefulness of that and it's like okay if that works now if we can make that so it's that and that's the same thing that becomes the TV so I mean yes they lost in market share but they always build on on their their successes

I mean as bad as the virtual boy was that still was their first toe in into VR right so they still learned something from that and that's where you get something like the the 3DS is from the old they they they they celebrate their failures and I think in a way that that most other companies don't right right I mean they don't they don't sync ships with their failures they don't like exactly but they build off correctly but like in in a lot of ways too they they lose the uh the not the essence they they lose like further potential with the Wii by by basically you know diverting to a different direction too because I agree with you the Wii and the Wii to quote unquote could have been yeah you know building off of that but they just switch every consoles and to something new because they get bored of it which is great for them to be able to do that it also but it also shows like how small

of a company they are to only be able to focus on one thing uh and this is what everyone yeah you're right like like like a Sony or a Microsoft would still have that division right they would still have that they would still be pushing forward on that like like obviously Sony still is with the with the psvr2 I mean you're right the Nintendo is singularly focused and is is small because it's just a game company right it's that's that's that's the extent of it of its box so you're right it's I guess that's why that that kind you kind of get that because they have to they have to think of it that way they they can't think of it any other way because they they've got that they've got the the one next Target and they and and they're always going for that one thing and they they don't really kind of they don't support their their their older stuff in that way um they're they're happy to resell it to you on the new on the new system but yeah but as supporting it as it stands you're right and that's probably why because they are just just a game company yeah like every

time they they switch to something new I feel like they're leaving hundreds of millions of Dollar on the table I mean the old NES games is like proof of like I mean all these early Indie devs were just recreating you know Sprite I mean it's still heavy now people are making Sprite Gaines because of old games yeah so and and even playing old NES games you know these arcade machines people are coming with their the custom arcade machines or like their there's uh simulation like consoles with like a thousand games loaded up yeah right I think Nintendo came with the smaller version of Nintendo yeah they they did they did the NES and the Super Nintendo I think they haven't done anything newer than that but they did it like years after everybody was emulating they didn't even really put resources behind it they're like yeah here's one that's like a million dollar business people up B yeah yeah yeah so it's just funny I mean

like you said you know they only have a 100 employees it feels like sometimes uh and they're either making the next console or they're making you know Mario license games they can't do much but they're very good at it I mean they're very it does feel like out of all these layoff stores etc etc Nintendo still has their core unit always because these games each one is so excellent um yeah there's no way the highest attach rate for me I mean I have to admit every time I mean every time I buy a new console it's at the end of the cycle I usually have more Nintendo games than any other just be I mean obviously there's things like Game Pass to consider but it just they do you're right I mean because they're just a game company if if you're just a game company and that's everything you do you put everything into it and and they do and they keep they also do such a good job of keeping their teams together yeah I mean Zelda those guys have been on that on that team for at least three or four titles

if not more some of them maybe even further and that's that's just not seen in other Studios it's just not yeah yeah and I here's another mystery I never hear anything about an ex Nintendo employee I like where'd you come from Nintendo like I never I never met I mean except for maybe that Texas company rare right maybe oh yeah yeah but like not even then I don't really hear even leaving or like used to work here uh so they must have such a low turnover rate or yeah to just stay there forever it seems um I'm surprised with all these buyouts that Nintendo is never in the conversation you you you hear you hear crazy rumors and that's it it's there's never anything really substantiated and you're right that's um I don't know I mean I always thought that if anybody would do it it would be Disney but Disney is so they're so hot water cold

water when it comes to games they go from they are all in and they're making games in Disney and and that's what they're doing and then like three to five years later we're getting rid of all that stuff and we're licensing it all out and they and they go back and forth all the time and so so I guess that's I'm glad that they haven't bought Nintendo because Nintendo does feel kind of like the Disney of video games right if you think about the characters and you think about yeah yeah the way that the IPS are perceived those are the that's a very close knit between the way Disney and the way Nintendo's perceived so that it sounds like a great fit on paper but Disney has never really WRA their head around video games the right way at least not for a long enough time so it's probably better that they don't um that they haven't done that but that would be the one I would think that would that would want to do it but um yeah that who knows what I don't know how often they get approached or you know or if they

don't or they people have approached them enough times to know that they're not they don't ever want to or or how what those things what really goes with that but yeah they they've really they've struck their own path through their entire history and that Al that goes with you know with the idea of being of being bought I mean that that might be just an anath to them because they are who they are and I mean they've been around since long before video games I mean they were making playing cards so that's we're talking about an old old company so yeah who know that they they don't have any reason to to to to be bought that's for sure yeah I I I will say this it's part of someone's plan for sure with oh yeah I'm sure that's all I'm sure they're always on somebody's Target I just have no idea how how receptive that the Nintendo is to that well Mario hitting a billion dollars that quickly as a movie probably turn a lot of heads I mean that IP [Music]

uh if anything reiterate as how important it is to Global success um I agree with you with with Disney like Disney and Netflix are always been back and you know super competitive you know um with Disney with their own streaming service I do feel like Netflix has they're going to strike something with their game division um yeah because I think yeah you're right I mean Disney going back and forth in mostly off games right now yeah they're leaving such big potential by by just trying I mean they're they're licensing Star Wars out and we're seeing a lot of Star War success sure um but if they're not thinking anything beyond that I think it is mistake uh because Netflix at some point will own everything uh in terms of their IP being movies and they nail that part of the bus and becoming streaming game business

as so at the same time it's be they've been very smart at um at doing it quietly and and and and slowly whereas a lot like like uh like stady and stuff like that you know with Google they they try to they've been trying to make a big splash with games and and come out strong yeah and and Netflix it's like a lot of people still say Netflix does games they don't they don't know that they do because they they're not confident enough in it they're smart enough and I think that might be just because they had to Pivot away from from physical media to streaming they had that big change and that was they were they they did a lot of the homework before they before that worked and I think they're probably doing the same thing with games they're just they're dipping their toe in they're they're they know what they're doing with their AB testing I mean that's something that that they they've got Pat so why not because they don't have to depend on it yet I mean obviously streaming is is not

what it used to be but still they I don't think they quite have to rely on the game so they they can take that time to get that to get the the not just the games but the way that they surface the games to to their public right to their users to get that right and if they because if they do get that right then all of a sudden they are ahead of some of the other bigger companies right I mean that that that'll be huge that'll be absolutely huge and we're seeing Game Pass be the biggest thing that Microsoft is doing right now for games I could easily see Netflix coming right in behind them and and passing all the other companies if they do it right right if they if they actually hit that note on making sure that that getting the games to the players is the easiest and the best way and and and still make a fun game and and not kind of like inhibit because that's the problem I think like stadia has is

that it it got itself it got in the way of the games it got there was too much in between the people and and the product right there was too much there was too many steps they had to go through you had to buy through them you had to use a lot of their stuff and that so that soured a lot of people and that's something that Netflix hopefully is going to get around you're you're right there's they're they're kind of a dark horse in that it'll be interesting to see how they pull that off yeah I I mean like the reason why well everyone knows like the game business is a big business to tap into everyone's trying to get into it I feel we always forget about Amazon but they've been around for like 15 years games they just haven't you know that shows how hard it is throwing money at something doesn't work right uh and they're still at it right for for good reason because they know that this is something we cannot dismiss this is can yeah you know Disney maybe in terms of resources they just don't have the time to invest which yeah I don't know I

don't know what it is with them so many IPS oh my God so many IP they have all of them they have all all the IP they have all the toys Jones game that's Uncharted that's why Uncharted was made yeah yeah exactly exactly I mean that's yeah you're you're that's why if you want to go way far back that's why Wing Commander was made way back in the day because everybody wanted to play that X-Wing game it was but and and Wing Commander had to come out first and then and then of course we finally got X-Wing but they yeah they don't they they just don't do it right away right they they want to see it done and then they kind of want to just just slide in on something that already works right which is weird for a company that's based on such based on technology if you think about it way back Disney was like the first um like Netflix or or Facebook back then because the technology they were using for the 2D animation was unprecedented that's they were a high

tech company in the 40s and 30s and it's now it's like they're they're happy for other people to kind of cut you know be The Cutting Edge and then them to kind of follow in behind it I suppose is is they I mean Pixar is the big exception but Pixar wasn't there at the beginning right they bought into it they didn't they didn't Blaze that trail they just followed along it's true yeah I think they're resting on their Laurels a lot lately just a bit well they do have a lot ofs they have a lot this is what I'm saying it's just uh like the the age of these you know us growing up I I just don't think they're in those positions at Disney it feels like right so they're not able to kind of make these moves that we know that is the right move the amount of ips to turn into games that it Place endless endless amount even if it's just point and click Adventures what was that game that with the KN uh the the classic one with the Knight and um I mean that was based on Disney Animation basically right um like

Dragon layers are you talking about yeah Dragon Land yeah huge oh yeah yeah like Disney alone can turn any of those old animated into that and it'll be people will love it point of Click I feel like it's kind of coming back in a way weirdly like so many uh I see so many games in development that are point in CL Adventures again it's so funny how a lot of things are being pulled back to like said like we're like we're growing up and we want to play those games again and so these are making it well the thing about the adventure games is it's that plays into the whole like cozy games movement too right there was not there's not a lot of pressure in those games there's a lot of I mean there's there's the frustration of trial and error but that's on your terms it's not time based it's none of stuff it's and so a lot of people they want to come home and not be stressed out by by the game they're playing there's a there's and people are getting older and and they're not quite as as Handi coordination Savvy as they used to be

right so yeah that feeds the adventure games feeds right into that whole aesthetic that people want to come home and unwind with their game so yeah it makes sense that that those are coming back yeah those are the exact same reason why I like single player games it's just like I just I just want to be a part of the story and feel good you know by the end of it um and not had to be pressure about like not getting a frag or shooting my own teammates me it's like God D you know I just want to chill not not watching your lane or like oh God you know let me just tell me a good story yeah um but yeah a lot of these things it does feel like a lot of these companies are holding back their potential uh which is a shame because like I said Disney is like you said you know they shared a lot of same things as Nintendo like Nintendo's doing what with IPS with their IPs what Disney should be doing with their IPs yeah yeah um um and I do I feel because of that lately their animation their movies have been

taking so bad like I I know that the live action like I get it right people want to see that but I I was watching The Little Mermaid besides the whole racial thing right the story alone was just bad it was just badly made like why does this have to exist um it's just bad storytelling in my opinion uh it doesn't engage me in any way and they're making more uh I don't understand like I feel like they're losing I I think what it feels like what it feels like the guards there are trying to replicate success by just literally doing uh what you call that type of Animation when they're just copying frame by frame uh what was it um oh my God animators are going to kill me like rotoscoping rotoscoping yeah so literally rotoscoping like old classics but you

know without the soul you know it's missing the soul of Storytelling is how I feel watching these movies um like some of the Pixar movies are kind of like this too like lately yeah they have lost their luster I think I would say the last three or four have not I would I would prefer to watch the the Disney Studios movies actually like like the W El and stuff than the Pixar movies they and and I know that there's been there's been a bit of a brain drain obviously so at the top end because there's been there's been scandal after Scandal all over the place so sure with that kind of stuff so sure there's that but you You' hope that that person have that must impact that's that's scary I know yeah is is is that what is that really what it was could it be that who knows maybe um because yeah it doesn't the the like you're right it's the the soul doesn't feel like it's quite there anymore um and I think another reason why is because with all these streaming services and all all of this all this media that there's really there's a

drain on writers they just you can't have that many good writers in one place anymore because there's just so much stuff to make U and so we're kind of gonna have to wait for the newer writers to kind of cut their teeth and get that experience that we're used to um on these on these older projects because there's just too much out there and I think that's reason why the strikes happen is because there's so much content that they the the studios are kind of were in this position where they could they could do that right they they had enough money to to kind of string people along a bit but it's it's finally coming back to bite them you know because you can only do that for such a certain amount of time before everybody burns out then you have that literally you have nobody that's working on on your projects which is what we're ending up with now and and and another thing is every time there's a new medium the they always have to

like they've got to be squeezed into into giving the percentages to the people that make it every time it happened with you know with music and it happened now it's happening with streaming it's that it's just it takes it takes a while for people to to catch up to [Music] to to just be recognized again for the contributions that they make and I don't know why it has to be hard every time but it seems to be every time and and that now we're dealing with that and that doesn't even broach the the the subject of of AI and we haven't even talked about that but that's getting a that's another thing that's huge about the near future is is the industry getting a a hold on that and figuring out exactly what that means yeah to the industry because it's that's one thing that that's a a change that I have never felt as seismic as that in in the whole time that I've been in the industry I mean

microtransactions online none of that stuff feels as monumentally shifting as that can be because it can replace a hundred writers in a room right I mean that it doesn't have to be the best right it doesn't have to be the best uh material it just has to be good enough to sell and we've seen that that that's that's just good enough for many many things that's that's that's that's a scary proposition it is a proposition that everyone's dealing with like I think because of the uh I think a lot of his what you're saying is like more than ever creatively there's so many Avenues to to go to work now right because we're in a quantity era there there's so many streaming services I'm not just talking about games but movies and for for creatives to be a part of because they're constantly needing new content because they have their quarterly and their every I don't even know what Netflix is it once a

month I I forget when they release every week every Friday they release new content right so there's like this endless amount and there's five of them or something right Apple has has one Disney has one Amazon has one and then like obscure ones right yeah Paramount Paramount yeah peacock whatever yeah yeah everybody so more than ever right so and it so it's a quantity over quality so how how can you you know put all your work and so it's not about like I I have something like you said the the we were discussing you know a lot of these stores feel soulless because it is not existing because it needs to exist it's existing because of I need to fill in content yeah I need I need them to pay for that one more month I've gotta pay they have to pay enough to make the next quarter look good yeah and then and then it and then the next quarter it starts all over it again and then so this is a

never ending problem because there's no way yeah right that they want to stop that machine going because it is producing in in terms of subscriptions or whatever M at the same time we have an emerging Tech that seemingly at surface solves this problem yeah yeah where it's one person for every hundred riders that can pump Within like prompts of a second however you know it's doing it too good and so like what about the people because it does replace or at least at some you know it does it does stop you know the process uh creative process or we have to rethink right but it's happening too fast no one was ready for it um so there's going to be some compromise which is what the strike is about yeah um I wonder how what's going to shake out out because that technology and the need for something like that technology is happening people are paying for it

right and people want it the compromise is I I have a hard time believing that I think it's just going to be a pause or or a slow transition a slower transition is what the compromise is it's like what people are asking is like let's slow it down a bit right let's not get rid of everybody let's slow it down a bit so we can react yeah rethink Our Lives think are careers or something right yeah um which is what I'm seeing because I I don't think the AI thing is stopping I mean the people who are paying for it people who are using it like you said it's good enough and yeah that's the yeah it's and but the the scary thing is how how long it takes for actual legal reifications right because it always take so long and and it's because how much content is going to be made yeah exactly how many how how much how many lives are going to how many people are going to be out of a job before it

starts to be where that's you know where it's against the law or at least restricted or something to that effect it's gonna it's it moves too fast and that you're right it's scary it's already happening right I mean there's they're already they're already doing that stuff there who knows within the especially because of the strike I mean they the the studios aren't spending their money on projects on live projects what are they going to do with that money I mean they're probably going to use do it use it for AI research at this point so yeah it's it'll be like I said that the one thing that to keep your eye on for the next 18 months to five years is going to be what shakes out of that because that's that's going to change our lives in ways that we cannot comprehend yeah well I'll ended with this I mean I would love to do a part two because AI alone is like major right um but like I'm already seeing companies like blizzard who outwardly announced like oh we're we're we're we're we're we're going to feed into our a own AI machine because

if the problem was Data Mining you know unlicense products on the internet we're not doing that but we're feeding stuff that we own yeah and training AI models and like you know Netflix and all these guys is like okay we won't we won't train on things out there but we have a huge library of content own yeah yeah yeah or like you said Disney they have all the they have all the toys give me a second I'll do it your way I'll do it right you know how are we going to stop are we are they not allowed to do that I mean they own it right they paid for it they did it yeah it's going to work not maybe as good as chat GP or whatever but eventually it'll get there you know all these scripting all these frames that they can just import uh you know it'll be a weekend for these yeah these Tech these it guys to to inform yeah yeah so what are we going to talk about then so that that that's the part of conversation that I I think a lot of people kind of gloss over is like all right you know I get the internet scraping thing yeah it is bad

but if they scrape their own stuff is that bad too or is that not allowed yeah yeah I mean we we'll we'll find out well you know I I'm serious I definitely want to do a part two because there's a lot about that I want to dive into but you know this is the the hour mark hopefully that was painless and fun oh yeah it was great it was it was a pleasure absolutely this is also the part where I shut up uh to for the people you know if they want to reach out talk to you on X right or any other platform yeah how do people find you I'm I'm not on Twitter um I'm barely on Facebook so unfortunately uh I'm not that kind of guy which which for better for worse you know it makes my life a little easier sometimes um LinkedIn check out uh there's we don't even have anything coming out in my for for at least a year so uh but yeah keep an eye out on Splash we'll have some Splash damage we'll have something within the

year or so it won't be what I'm working on because what I'm working on is super super secret but um yeah um check that out uh once again play some tabletop games I said that last time I still say it this time there's um there's something to be said about it doesn't have to be D and D because I know that's that's even become problematic these days um but U yeah that's a that's a like like reading a book it's it's it's something that you won't be in you won't be disturbed with a popup and you won't have to form have opinions formed for you it's it's it's definitely something that that I think is one of the most formative things for for my game design career and I I just just do it if you can sometimes it's tough to get people together but it's it's it's a good thing yeah it's it's definitely have been on the comeback for a while now like yeah yeah that is the way to enjoy social Gathering I think it's that's like you said it's part of that it's it's it's

part of that getting offline right it's it's it's people people have a have a hunger for that it's definitely part of that yeah it's something I'm not a very spiritual guy but it's like for all of us to have that calling that inner calling at the same time it just feels like something's happening uh for sure um but Brian it was great having you always AB abely be sure to do a followup uh to talk about a whole dedicated episode of AI I mean I would love to kind of dig into your head in that um but for everyone else have a good one see you guys next week hello everybody Brandon here I want to talk to you today about something very special we've been on this wild Rod together haven't we from my early days as a senior employee feeling a bit lost all the way to Leading multiple Studios transitioning to smaller Indie teenss and the mobile industry and now running my own game studio for the last six years throughout this time you've been

here listening and learning along with me sharing this never- ending journey of Discovery this year I'm kind of on this quest of meeting serial Studio Founders discussing Acquisitions or exploring what it takes to grow a studio to over 100 developers I've always tried to find an exciting topic to delve into and every year is a little different the focus is a little different because that's where I am in my career currently and I want to be able to share what I'm learning with you guys so I've always been dedicated to asking the tough questions bringing you insightful answers from industry leaders and experts and now I want to share with you how I'm applying these answers to my own Journey this is why I'm excited to announc that for just a $1.99 per month you can now subscribe to our exclusive content series these bonus episodes will give you a deeper look into my personal experiences and how I'm putting into practice what our esteemed guests are preaching it's more of a personal side of the journey that I hope will show you that we're all in this together and we're all continuously learning whether you're a game developer

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