7 Habits of Incredibly Effective Gaming Jedis: Special Edition

[Music] hello world welcome to the Pocket Gamer podcast with your hosts me Brian Bago and our Hostess of hogmany as we Edge into 2025 Peggy anals hello Peggy how are you I am fine and Brian you know that is one of the things on my bucket list is to be in Scotland for New Year's Eve so you got me there you got me there we'll make it happen it's like once we actually get Pocket Gamer into sort of not just the top of the charts but the the award-winning record breaking category which is our plans for 2025 we'll have a celebratory party here for for New Year 2026 so there we go there's a goal to aim for all in the books Brian all in the books that's why we've brought together the best of the best right I was thinking end of the year what are we going to do and we're going to be different other people do a w and

they're just like this is what happened no this is not just what happened this is what matters because it'll help you our audience our listeners take on the challenges and the opportunities coming up in 2025 so put together Tada that was a very cool name and you I think you do too I think it's I think it's in your Vibe Brian the seven habits of incredibly effective gaming Jedi special edition perfect it's like who doesn't love a Jedi apart from Sith Lords but they're not welcome on this podcast we're normally quite inclusive but h no sorry Sith Lords but not here so it's great it's great rather than just here are our favorite bits or here are the you know what stood out to us what is it that people have been getting excited about who's been bringing the really deep learning and the most incredible opportunities to hear from the experts pioneers and you know the people who are building this sector as it continues to grow evolve yes and we do have them

because I did deep methodology here right I took a look at as always if I am a bit of a data Diva no but seriously I looked at the most views but I thought okay most views just means people click and they look and they go so I average that a little bit of a little algorithm little help for my my friends at chat GPT also looked at the longest views right so our audience was riveted to the screen for a reason so put them together and we have pure gold lessons and learnings seven of them on this episode which is of course showing that one we were on the mark with what we said and who we spoke with on our show for sure so I think that's just a great Testament to our work together Brian and the value that we bring because these aren't just any interviews well that's exactly it piggy you know every time we bring somebody onto the show I learn something I'm sure you learn something and it gives our

audience such a huge amount to to take away so we're not just you know commenting on Trends or giving people our thoughts we're pulling in the real experts and letting people learn from the best of the best um and I think that's reflected in what's been going on this year so if you look at the uh the numbers the data for the Pocket Gamer podcast and our companion show the weekend mobile games a shout out to Craig paig Aron and the team um every week we're bringing new content to the world and the numbers reflect that you so we've grown by something like 140% in terms of followers well over 225% in terms of listeners well over 270% in terms of streams and we're listen to in 50 countries with our friends in the US OFA leading the charge so hello to everybody listening in the United States um and we are of course thanks to you know the the trouble that we go to to make sure that we're framed that were

lit and that we gorgeous we're in the top 15% of video podcasts on Spotify so Peggy we're kicking butt I I would say that that's exactly the words for me here we are we're crushing it Brian Crush we're crushing it and we'll continue to but also humble because it's all about the guests it could be about us because you've got you know your great look and your printed shirt and and me I'm always going to be a little bit uh over the top and orange but it's about them so let's get to them okay and we'll kick it off with number seven number seven is inog game strategy to extending the lifespan of Legacy games so very important now when you have to think of doing more with less and that was key takeaways from Matthew Milligan torson shanken and Stefan Flinter Hoff we had them all together we had the entire ecosystem on One show we don't rest on our we introduce new stuff that

that engages the players again and I think that's a that's a really good mixture and just to illustrate that although we are the oldest game at in a games portfolio we have the youngest uh demographic our players are the youngest uh of all the of all the games which is which is amazing but the mean um age of our players is around 37 years and then when you count back 20 years you were back back then you were 14 15 16 you were in school you played with your friends and I think you can come back now after 20 years and and uh then finally you have the money that you didn't have as a as a pupil probably and and uh start investing in the game and I think as I said this mixture of of nostalgia and then keeping the game fresh uh really helps what were the key elements that they were talking about for you we had we had data we had marketing we had product together so um one key takeaway is exactly that aligning product and marketing for longevity because they did it they wrote that Playbook there there's a lot in there you know pretty much every single person listening regardless of their

role regardless of the company they're working for running their own company in the games World there was something there for them to take away um and your takeway Brian what was that I really liked what they were talking about in terms of adapting Legacy games to new audiences because you know Tribal wars is is decades old um and so they talked about embracing Nostalgia and how you can sort of bring players back who maybe played you know 10 20 years ago and um and using old creatives and but trying to make everything old new again um and really encouraging that re-engagement because for a sector that has produced so many tens of thousands of games in the in the last sort of 40 50 years piggy we really suck at the longtail you know there are so many companies out there it's always about moving onto the new thing and onto the next thing yes and building that kind of hugely influential community of people people that takes in the the Boomers the

Millennials the Gen Z's the cynical gen X's like myself and I'm sure you um they I think they're doing something really interesting it was and so the takeaway The Habit here is Nostalgia meets Innovation it's all about balancing the familiarity of your legacy game with fresh updates keep players engaged keep relevant attract new audiences live longer live I was going to say live longer and prosper but no live live long and prosper it works and prosper that's the that works and that is the lesson although we are now mixing the genres we're mixing the track and the wars we're going to get complaints Peggy we're gonna get complaints but it's gonna it's it's good it's it's a it's a mashup coming in behind him at number six we have triple dot Studios Akin babit on understanding the business behind great games so initially when we started we said um you know we are not the most creative people in terms of coming up with the next gaming mechanic

or something like that we're really good operators we understand datadriven product management we understand digital marketing we understand user user acquisition we understand monetization um and we felt that there was a need for um a company like that to really focus on um on on those aspects of gaming what did you take away from this one Peggy well I I met him a few times he's moved on by the way um he's just amazing and it was it was a privilege to have him on the show so a keen I would have to say it's your lessons in leadership because it's not just about leading a company it's also leading a team and very important was an objective perspective for Clear decision-making regarding investment and pivoting and data and understanding because if you're going to create a long-term Legacy if that's what you want to do then you blend your product Excellence with smart business practices

in other words you kill your babies when you have to but only when the data tells you to what was your takeaway well it kind of touches on yours and and for me uh aen was talking about the the lessons and Leadership so don't get dragged into you know what the team maybe think about the game or you know what individuals with the the team think are the sort of the key elements the key hooks use the data and if you can do that then the other point you mentioned was building a sort of a truly generational company you know so triple Dot's ambition is to create a long-term Legacy so it's not just product excellence and individual titles um but it's smart business practices it's you know looking at this as a business and that's a perspective that I think can often run a foul of people in the games world because they go oh yeah you know we're artists we're creatives we're you know it's not just for guys in suits man

yeah but without the guys in suits you're not going to get to game number two or game number three or get that kind of Legacy so you know you have to be able to balance the two and and I think he made the point really succinctly really well yes indeed so I would sum it up as this being the view that details are the product data matters pay attention to details to ensure quality and competitiveness and also to measure those risks because because you can take risks and you can gain share in a competitive category if again you understand the data so that's his habit that's his passion works for me absolutely and thanks again aen it was a great it was a great episode indeed moving on what's number five Peggy this wasn't a surprise actually this is one I enjoyed personally a lot because just the title got me right I mean I think we got I think we got curiosity views first and then we got longer watching when people say wow relevant too so unicorns camels and

Hogs shout out to Patrick mcen here the man who brought us that how smart ad monetization saves your app from getting eaten alive there's a thing I'm I'm writing that is probably going to be called unicorns camels and Hogs okay everyone wants to be a unicorn right like the startup that just goes forever now camels in this context have been described to me as uh don't need a lot of food don't need a lot of water can do an awful lot of work and live for a really long time that sounds like a pretty good business to be in if you can't be a unicorn make sure you're a camel and then Hogs there's this other metaphor you know pigs might get fat but Hogs always get slaughtered right like Hogs don't last like they they take a lot of resources in and then it's over the idea is just to force people to think about making money along the way

what was your key take away what what kind of struck you most so he went into a lot of myths and misconceptions about ads which I thought were important because again we have a lot of people in our audience like ads no I don't want them I don't want them in my game they'll alienate my players no you can do it if you do it thoughtfully but what stood out for me was also rewarded ads because they are here it is an alternative UA Channel and he spoke about it in Great depth and saying okay you can do rewarded really well if you have a player first approach so it's about optional engagement you know users can watch ads to gain some in-game awards and those rewards should also be personalized so you know maybe a longer term player gets a different type of reward but it all comes together with having that as a mechanic but also saying you have it so again something as simple as highlighting the ad button

with simple animations or notifications offer rewards and show that you're offering rewards see it's such it was such a a good point I thought he made it very well and it kind of really touches on what I took away from that which was embracing ad monetization as a core part of your game you know far too many game developers are are hesitant uh to implement ads or if they have to have ads they kind of very take cursory approach which is we'll just put it in there and they'll have an ad and then they can get on with the game which is the fun bit which is my responsibility rather than looking at where and how they implement it and and working with that as part of the design and development of their game you know um because that can have a massive impact on user experience and Patrick for me really sort of encouraged and you know I think inspired Studios to reframe their approach and integrate ads thoughtfully

you know and use it as a tool and part of their overall design it was fun it was insightful I think he has a book in there and if I had to summarize that habit it's like focus focus focus right many studios fail to invest the necessary time and resources into their ad strategy which means you're not going to make money you're going to have suboptimal results he's an advocate for treating ad monetization as a key Revenue driver and we I think Brian oh it was it's great it's and obviously we already have the title for the book you know it's like if it's not going to be unicorns camels and Hogs got then we're going to have to have some serious words with them but it was just it was beautifully put and and we'll have to we'll have to welcome him back on the show Once the book is out no pressure Patrick no pressure Patrick seriously seriously he's just saying there's a holiday coming up you've got a lot of free time on your hands so where are we

on number four what's the next one ah this was a good one as well how one Studio stays successful when shift happens and we do love you know some mild innuendo on the show so this was all good but these were uh findings from Ryan filsinger a CEO of iron fox games what do you do when a key Revenue Source or a key personal Source in the company disappears one of the uh things that we uh did or one of our perspectives when we started iron Fox was to always what we called have a bias towards action um almost anything in a company can be uh redone or fixed at a later date um but not doing anything is unfixable because you didn't actually produce anything and so in those situations that you're mentioning you know Finding in partners that are willing to understand the situation and the times uh was a massive help to us you know it's the fact that he was willing to come on and be brutally honest and raw about where they

got things right where they got things wrong um which is always nice because people learn from mistakes you know even more so in some cases than they do from successes for me Peggy when he spoke about building and leveraging relationships it it really spoke to me and my time in the games industry because I see so many people who will go to shows and they'll hang out and they'll have a perfectly lovely time but they won't necessarily talk to anybody they haven't known for the last decade and and while it is perfectly lovely and everybody has drinks and they have a great time building those relationships nurturing those relationships over time can be hugely beneficial in helping you and your business to grow and build strong foundations of friends colleagues that you can rely on when you are uncertain when you H those periods of volatility and when you need help that's so true and it worked out for him he gave us examples how that helped him in his business both having the right relationship having the right people in

his team but also being able to draw on those supportive relationships when his Studio was in trouble so my favorite he has a bias toward action I thought that was really something you know just action even imperfect action is action and delaying decisions results in stagnation and he showed us that right his own Studio iron iron Fox they face setbacks and he put together a short-term project to sustain the business this was proactive this just act do it and it brought the company through they were able to secure larger longer term deals so yeah bias toward action that stood out yeah and but the other thing for me was he also said celebrate success you know recognize achievements you know when if you get a certain number of downloads or you know a game comes back there's no bugs you know keep the keep everything positive celebrate success and just make sure that you're taking your team with you

you know it'll get you through some tough times if if everybody believes in what you're doing and you can find those small wins I'm glad that was one of our top shows because it's not going to be an easy year Brian we need to have this so yes everyone should go back watch it again if you haven't already uh write down because the lessons are real heartly recommend it heartly recommend it which brings us very neatly Peggy to number three number three was early on in the year I was like oh wow this is something because this was quite early on when we started interviewing some of the top Studios to just understand their philosophy rather than the you know the metrics right so number three us two games Maria science on the sustainable strategy behind the Monumental game which is of course Monument Valley and she was amazing I just love her spirit to start off with our games always come from a very personal place and it's one of our um our pillars our product pillars is

that they are made by people now when we named that pillar we were not thinking of AI um if we were just thinking about uh the fact that they come from a personal place as opposed to um um as opposed to just a market research that identifies a uh a space in the market H to be filled um but it comes from personal inspiration uh who knows eventually at the fact that they made by people will come to uh be a differentiator in other ways um yeah but that's that's definitely a theme that's going uh through all of our Gams but we don't stop there um we we then very quickly turn the the spotlight onto the player and we say okay this thing that comes from a very personal Place how is it Universal so it stood out for me Brian if you hear about wallet share all the time even hear

about mind share all the time but how about heart share and she makes games from the heart and she proves that you can and succeed at the same time because it's all about player connection over Market driven formulas yes we do know we need to be data driven we heard that already but games are also successful that are made by people for people emphasizing authenticity personal inspiration so a shout out to that amazing episode because it was real it was showing what impacts resonates across diverse audiences and also if you do it right transforms your game into a success I I loved talking to Maria I think she was a fantastic not just guest but a figurehead for the industry and the fact that they're doing so much in terms of focusing on their people they're a bore you know they really taking that philosophy to heart um and

when she talked about leadership for creativity I was genuinely inspired Maria said that her role is about creating space for talented teams to do their best work which I don't think anyone can can possibly disagree with and her habit I think if we sum it up is changing to stay the same is what I've written down in my notes because I think it's about looking at the process you preserve the Cor identity of the game but you still adapt to other markets cultural shifts even other platforms you know they're not just on PC console they're everywhere um Netflix obviously also another so it's just that adapting but staying true to your roots this is it don't change the goal change the Milestones you know perfect absolutely so we're getting to the end here number two Brian what do we have number two

number two was one of these ones it's that's really granular and it on paper you think hm is this going to be interesting and oh my God it was so this was multiscript um Ty aner Mickelson on scaling subscription models across gaming platforms yes we're talking subscription folks Netflix was mentioned earlier and the benefit of that is that it has something for everyone in the family so everyone can sort of understand why we need to get this subscription for us it's a it's primarily a value ad for the games that they can be bigger than they are by themselves I think that's that's a challenge so being able to bondle it with with other titles um is just a nice it's a nice thing for consumers we all have losser version which is why we might not subscribe um because we think we might not continue to play the game but if there are other games in the service then the loss version goes away because in your mind you're thinking hey I can always just play one the other games if I sto playing this game so that

that I think that's that's that's really the strength of of putting in into a bigger Network at the heart of it rather than being simply a business model or a revenue stream um Ty talked about subscriptions as relationships not transactions which I'll be honest I hadn't really thought of before um but it's down to building trust you know subscription models require ongoing value deliver for the the player you've got to be give be giving them something that they find valuable players subscribe based on faith in future benefits they trust you to deliver and give them things that they're going to want and bring them joy and so you have to meet if not exceed those expectations to to maintain that loyalty um and that lets you build s Point number two for me was this long-term engagement so subscribers are members not customers you know they're coming back they're your hardcore fans they're the committed ones um and so you

have to find ways to consistently reward that commitment with exclusive benefits and just making them feel special and in the case of his own model sub multiscript own model which is their Unleashed model it's about you know bundling value it's multiple games one subscription so again it's like in the early days of mobile content which you will remember Brian it was always the bundle the bundle wins it wasn't the one thing it was how you put them together and all of these different ways that you can attract and retain subscribers by giving them Alternatives in one thing you know when one interest wains we've got another for you so I think it was about doing it in an intelligent way it's not as you always say yourself Brian actually you know flexibility not one siiz fits all I think that came across really strong it just it it made so much sense to me Peggy it really did and the the kind of the two key things

for me it was subscription as a commitment not just for the player but for the developer you know it's not just a revenue stream it's a relationship you have to keep both sides happy um and to do that you really need to focus and drill down on your data and your your personalization understanding and adapting to player preferences surveys feedback loops looking at you know their usage patterns and then building on that to give them something special and I think the takeaway is really think about the engagement you know prepare to engage subscription models require ongoing player communication support um as you said yourself it's the value players gain from subscribing that has to be super clear and then you will be super successful with the subscription model it is coming it is here we're going to hear more about it in 2025 and maybe even have Ty back again to tell us about how subscriptions have evolved that brings us to the top show from this year

it's like in terms of views in terms of the length of those views by every metric this was our most popular show of the year Peggy who was it don't keep us hanging on it was a surprise actually Brian it really was a surprise for me it is at the end of the day it is insights from a vendor and you think sometimes in our industry that's like nah but you know that's okay but no these were truly insightful cuz they're Based on data from a top top platform app lovens Daniel chernovsky on the hot gaming Trends worth tracking you build progression you limit progression you speed it up uh in relation to how do you just want to engage with the product um that's certainly one thing the other one is also the complexity let's say Peggy the two of us play a match three game why should the level two for you and me be the same based on how I behave in level one level two should look different you can customize more and

more because the goal really is to create experiences that feel tailored to you you want a game experience where it feels this is just my level of difficulty and that's something that we're seeing more like I've talked to companies who are saying they build literal ml models to use past Behavior to decide what type of block or stone or whatever it is will come up next for every single user and that they use to increase retention like it can pretty deep we did this at the start of the year which tells me shout out to you Daniel I think we have to have you back again to do at the start of this year because people Loved These Trends and you know what he was on the money Brian we weren't talking about it as much and now you hear it at all the conferences his number one takeaway for me embrace hybrid monetization it's the new normal it's the convergence of AD driven and IAP based monetization this is it this is the way to maximize your Revenue

stream and still stay competitive and also bringing in rewarded because that's part of it balance Those ads with engagement so we gave us like a monetization road map which I think was great to start the new year with oh massively Peggy massively and it's one of these things that that again we hear about it in so many different forms but having it stated so boldly up front it's like this is how it's working so that was my takeaway what was it for you Brian what was it that stood out for me it was it's all about the data stupid so I'm not calling you stupid piggy but you know you know that we're both data Geeks and when he's talked about leveraging data segmenting your players and making sure that you understand your players behavior and use that to identify your high value players um design experiences for those people but unless you know who your players are and how to actually split them up into the the whales the Dolphins The Minnow the camels the goats

the Hogs um you're not going to be getting the most out of them and you're not going to be making them happy um and it kind that kind of fed into hyp segmentation and so again being able to sort of act on that segmentation means that you are maximizing the value of every player it gives you the opportunity to make every player happy that mindset is adapt or decline really it's all about you say it again all the time Brian I mean you're just going to be like the motto of 2025 you know change is constant so Studios have to embrace new trends new tools new consumer behaviors it's all about thriving in a hyperco competitive environment that means you have hyp segmentation and you have a hybrid monetization strategy this is the way it works you know it's been an incredible year Peggy it's been volatile it's been exciting it's been terrifying I think it pretty equally um who knows what 2025 is

going to bring but the one thing I I can honestly say is that we have spoken to some of the brightest and best and most creative people that the mobile games world has to offer it's like a almost like a hobby for me you know everyone can go to where the action is and I will polish maybe it's because I'm from Pennsylvania but I will polish coal and look for diamonds I know that people who are working hard have a lot to say a lot to share but they're not necessarily our industry rock stars we are also marking our second year Brian how about that it can't be it can't be really a full two years of the PG team bringing you the podcast it's it doesn't seem like half that amount P it doesn't even seem like six months it's every time we get together if we have all of these incredible conversations it seems like we're starting a fresh it does indeed I mean I enjoy it I look forward to

continuing it and we have some great shows that are still going to close out the year but I have to say this one Brian just being able to sit and chat with you and and have a deeper discussion really enjoyed it and I look forward to having more of them as well oh well listen Peggy I'm I'm with you it's it's actually been quite nice not having to Wrangle the guests and you know write questions for them so so that's always a joy and right back at you Peggy I hope you have a fantastic end of the year it's I'm in Scotland so we obviously do hogman so the end of the year is always H utterly fantastic I'm told I don't remember many of them but that's okay it means we'll be back refreshed ready to rock and roll and um crush it some more in 2025 absolutely thank you Brian and a final round of applause for our seven amazing incredibly effective gaming Jedi thank you guys May the force be with

you this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you

as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian Bago I'm Peggy and salts and that's a wrap until next week