Understanding Loot Boxes with Zac Rich | Game Dev Unchained Episode 195

[Music] ladies and gentlemen and boys and girls welcome back to the best place to learn about game development and the lifestyle of game developers in podcast form later Charles one half of the game Devlin chain podcast team and this person was the first person to ever I wasn't the first one to [ __ ] but I won't be the last either this is Brandon fan welcome to our episode game dev Unchained the podcast differ with the cameras oh it's different with the cameras on so we are inviting our special guests our dear friend Zack rich Zack amen right I think just comes on perfect timing good so Zack is obviously been on the podcast before for longtime listeners but Zack for the first time listeners and viewers

out there do you mind kind of giving us a little background of where you are so I'm the founding partner of a law firm called press start legal we represent the gaming industry so we work with developers publishers twitch streamers influencers we really span the gambit of interactive entertainment perfect yes Shawn sweets Thank You Larry this is what I do yeah oh the more that I've done this now I've been able to narrow that down yeah or used to be the long rambling thing and and if again for new listeners out there what led you to wanting to start this venture in the in the first place so I'm a huge fan of games is what it really boils down to I'm like gamer by heart and as an attorney you know when you work in big law and you deal with you know when when the clients become more about numbers on a spreadsheet than

actually about the individuals and and what they're building or their companies it becomes so stressful that you end up burning yourself out and I wanted to find a way that I could take my career as an attorney and mash it with my passion for working with creatives and games and that led me to launching my own firm and working with some of the best people in the world doing awesome and we're glad to have you let me hear ya and I would imagine with your vast knowledge of game experience and then also you being an attorney you've probably worked on some really cool projects and you've seen your fair share of good things happening in the game industry and also when they call you like either the bad or things that need to be settled part of the game industry am I correct in that assessment absolutely you know we we sometimes we get lucky and we'll get to work with either a new studio or you know a young studio and we get to help them before anything goes wrong and I would say that's 35 40 percent of what we do the

other 60% is hey we're being sued or hey we got this letter from this this rights holder who claims that our game is infringing what do we do and that's when we step in so we're both a sword and a shield we get this letter says cease and deciced what does that mean well let's get to the meat and potatoes so obviously Zack you've been on the podcast before you know the format we had you on before to kind of give advice or a suggestion what's the legal turn so you don't get no no he can do it he's a lawyer yes we don't have boilerplate like I'm not a lawyer we can do your lawyer so well you

guys can't consider this legal advice it is my opinion from my experience working in the legal field of video games yeah that's my boilerplate or glamorous armor the ass armor go on so let's talk about this right loop boxes is going through a huge legal ramification and blue box what is loop black about surprise mechanics Oh surprise mechanics are just one on it he actually surprised me with that one my bed his he's so good so exacting I got a cash history he catches up with that like what is going on right now with loot boxes and kind of give like a slightly overview for people who are not caught up yeah absolutely so everyone knows at least people who would be listening to your podcast that the easiest way to monetize any game whether it be mobile triple-a indeed PC you know console is

loot boxes microtransactions and what's happening is all around the world loot boxes are gaining very negative attention and it's because the mechanic itself is presented in a very predatory way that is in effect causing individuals young individuals you know obviously people over the age of I want to say 16 but really its age of 18 and up should know better but young individuals who don't really understand the value of money just using their parents credit card and buy buy buy buy buy buy and now the sudden you have a two three thousand dollar credit card bill and on it is you know three thousand dollars from the epic game store because of loot boxes or ei or you know any of them and not to just name those two individuals I mean you see it all across gaming and it can be anywhere now because of that you're

starting to see Member States of the EU ban the practice outright you have US senators trying to pass bills that ban it outright in the United States you have the FTC starting to take comments before they start passing their own regulations on this and now you have the ESA sitting back going crap we should have got in front of this issue and now similar to what happened with violence in video games they're going to play catch-up and try to shift the narrative to be a self regulated industry yeah and what you're seeing is individuals are trying to compare loot boxes to gambling and there's you know a lot of different side the story yeah what's what's fun to me is gambling isn't illegal right like I I think those same countries that are banning loop boxing I don't explicitly know that they've also like banned casinos or banned gambling whatsoever so is there I guess why do we face you

know all the disdain from the from the European government as to why it cannot exist anymore why is EA in front of Parliament trying to explain its surprised mechanics and not loot boxes it's not gambling so you're right and before we even get to that sure how do you side with the lawyers defense I'm calling in sand fries is it like this how hard did you was a clever to you or is he it was that dispositive they could have done yeah is it the best note if they're arguing the say in the United States there is a strict definition of what is considered gambling and if you stack loot boxes up against what that definition is it fails for one very particular purpose and that's because the definition states that gambling is any activity where an item of value is placed at risk in an attempt to gain greater value so in essence you're

betting money to get money in video games it's you're betting money to get an item but these items and this is what the big argument is in the United States is there is no value or right now no monetary value attached to that item that is core the biggest debate because how do you put money on a digital good that you can't resell for for more money I mean there are obviously we used to do it on the grays and the black market per se you could sell your yeah your account on eBay and in essence you sold the value of that item and you see this in MMORPGs where people are selling items and whatnot but because of that one large stepping point of being able to exchange what you've earned from that risk for a higher value it's not considered gambling per se the big issue that you're seeing in the EU and also in

the United States is the predatory nature of the practice it's putting out that shiny new skin or that shiny new character or you know whatever it is that you want to put in that loop box and then hiding the fact that you're gonna spend $15 on a premium currency to get a 1% chance to get that item even though we're displaying it and we're saying it's in this box we are not telling you that the odds of you getting that or one in you know six hundred seven thousand yeah and that's the big issue what's what's interesting to me is that like the half-step that I hear that people are like at least requiring is like China for example you have to display the odds right but the compulsive nature of loupe box spending in that that loop of like spend a couple of moments of shine flash open the thing did I get it did I not that loop happens outside of someone knowing the odds so I

don't see that having like any any gravity or any weight on that scenario I think those same people would be addicted nature's are still gonna have the same problem of like well I didn't get it let me do it again I didn't get it let me do it again showing me that like it's a one in 3,000 chance likely not gonna stop that decision making no absolutely in fact in the United States you don't need to display the odds the reason why you're slowly starting to see it now in certain markets and in certain games is because the EU the largest member state Germany was the driving force of that now you see it in Belgium you see it in the Netherlands and even the UK has passed laws that for these particular mechanics you need to display the odds of winning that had a trickle-down effect in the United States because developers basically said why am I going to change one thing for one side of the world to be easier for us to do it all together but yeah in it it's exactly what you said there there are been studies there are articles discussing this that the addictive

nature of that opportunity to win is what drives loot boxes and it's very dangerous as as shown I mean you when you have congressmen and Senators trying to pass bills banning the practice it's time to take a good step back and evaluate what this practice is and where EI will sit there and tell you it's surprised mechanics and it's the same thing as getting a kinder egg in reality it's not yeah you're not gonna walk into 7-eleven and see a kinder egg put up on a pedestal spinning around with LED lights shining on it saying aye me mm you know what else is interesting too is like a lot of people say like trading cards is another example of kids who are used to spending the 3 bucks having a good idea of what's inside but not necessarily explicitly knowing a pack of trading cards will always have and will always be whatever is inside of that pack is in there right like it's an actual tangible good there's no patch

update right they're like oh sorry hold on a second we've pulled magically four cards out of that pack still charging you the same price yeah none of the behind-the-scenes stuff that you know kind of occurs that you can't trust there's a lot more trust in the physical whereas with the loot box I'm at the mercy of code I'm at the mercy of RNG and I'm at the mercy of whenever they felt like changing the odds or the mechanics on me you know I'm still paying that same price mm-hmm absolutely and the thing with trading cards now this also depends on what type of trading card is there is also an inherent value attached to those cards yes you know those original Pokemon cards from 1994 1995 they're actually worth something today oh good god you know so all that money you've spent after mowing the lawn to go down to Walmart to buy that next pack of cards that just got released you might actually be able to get me back you're never going to see that money back from these games and the

one one interesting story that's starting to break and that I it was kind of an trying to think of the right word to put it it was unfortunately not highlighted as much as it should in at e3 there is a new game coming out the name of it completely escapes me at the moment but the article caught my eye because the game will have loot boxes but as the game develops and this is also an evolution of sort of the games as a service as sequels get released they're going to port those items that are going to be available in the loop boxes to the future iterations of the game and that's way they can sit here and say it's okay if you want to give us five dollars for X amount of premium currency for a chance to you know buy that new skin for that vehicle don't feel bad when we put out this you know version number two you'll still have it I think then that's one of the scary things about games

you know you can't take it with you yeah you know that's I call [ __ ] knowing how game development works right Mass Effect one two three they tried that where they kind of transfer over your avatar that you've made and in journeying through all three games and by the third game people were upset because the ending didn't matter sure baseline it's supposed to be a tailored custom experience but it was same ending for everyone yeah Game Studios closed left and right right he's fine it's tell me on this idea that I can carry over my Lutz to the next one there's only a few titles out there that can deliver on that promise maybe the Call of Duty game well any sports game with any sports or good times but that's a lot of server space they're just holding just for you hoping that this game will and and and the idea but that the one thing that kind of like

was hypocritical in that statement is the idea of sequels and carrying over like you have to be moving towards the subscription model of games as a service to make that work right if over watched became over watch as a service and there's no to then yeah I can see that being like 10 years down online I can still have my avatar in all my lutes and stuff but as soon as you move over the sequel it's a whole new ecosystem yeah and it's just a lot of legwork unless you're like really thriving as a business that's the first thing that you cut as soon as you start taking see console yes they might sell you on a second idea a second game and maybe they'll get that far but if their whole business is around that and you're telling me it only on the sequels alright there's a lot of truth around saying as a consumer like it sounds like a good promise right like I'm investing in this this is a I'm gonna get more return out of this dollar because I'm gonna buy it once if I get it I have it for if a next game comes

out it should be there and if a game after that comes out it should be there so that idea of being sold that promise I can understand the developer is also low risk too because you don't if we make a sequel you you best believe crafty attorneys are drafting that marketing language you know the the hard part for me is like it's a kick in the ass is in regards to scalability if you aren't the right type of product like if NBA 20 k1 is like hey we have this special McDonald's jersey that you just won right I imagine it's not gonna be so difficult changing the texture material of the next version of their games McDonald's Jersey to use that same art it's less of a stretch in my mind where if a game is like hey we've done a graphical overhaul of our game right so overwatch 2 comes out the models are three times as you know detailed higher fidelity yeah that tracer outfit that you unlocked in overwatch one we had to remodel and redo for overwatch two so

before we can even sell a new a new loot box we have to retrofit all the old stuff and that's the kick in the ass where if it's not the right type of game yeah it's it's do amen but I like it if it's a sports title like hey that little logo on the helmet that you ordered from you know Madden 20k it's now in 20k one yeah but like very few are likes titles yeah no absolutely I mean but you do see it now in you know in games as a service subscription base you know you look at destiny that game it's a three four year old game and it just hit a milestone of having a million active players you know and they're all about their loot boxes and cosmetic items and it will continue from your release to even today in 2019 and it still holding strong what kills me about loot boxes is like and we kind of touched on this before I don't have a problem with loot boxes when I know that my cost of entry was

like significantly minimum right free-to-play game $0.99 game I don't care that there's loot boxes I feel even if I'm compelled right and I've spent 30 bucks I'm like oh my god I spent 30 bucks I always feel less about that then when I paid the 60 bucks and then I'm paying the like seasonpass fee and then I'm paying the 2 $3 for the blue box I'm like my god how much money are you trying to take from me yeah I mean there's absolutely yeah there's definitely go ahead say we can we can thank EE a for this because they were the ones that thought that they could get away with it in the industry told them no you're not going to find game mechanics locked behind paywalls and loot boxes I mean let me add a caveat to that statement if it's a free-to-play mobile game or free-to-play MMO sure there's probably some paywalls in there but they're not locked behind loot boxes they might be content loss yeah but you know it was really epic that

pioneered that you can make millions of dollars selling virtual clothing yeah yeah and as soon as overwatch or how soon rushed as soon as fortnight doesn't exist anymore all that money that all these kids have been spending on outfits and skins gone mm-hmm and I I I have no problem at all with like any sort of game where their loot boxes or their little rewards boxes or surprised mechanics aren't game changing as far as competitive nature or game balance is concerned it was like oh you got splashy time water gun cool oh you get BFG like homage to what was that quake cool awesome but it's just a skin it's not it doesn't change the balance it has nothing to do with actual game power-ups therefore I'm less compelled to worry that like you have some sort of advantage that you've purchased yeah I don't give a [ __ ] you spent 10 grand I'm trying to get all the outfits I can still own you you have no extra advantage yeah like I like that style of loot boxes and I think that I don't have a problem if you try to sell loot box

content like that like appearance upgrades sell it till the cows come home in my opinion it doesn't bother me characters right like specific characters like powerful weapons tiered advantages that save you time because you spent money and it makes the game experience completely ruined for other people I'm talking about Star Wars here now it's totally not fair yeah that's that is I'm glad that EA got burnt for how they tried to implement the luboc strategy in Star Wars Battlefront 2 because I did not want that precedent to actually be successful yeah and I'm like on the wall waiting because they are the one that will really test the waters with loot box stuff they really go far and too far sometimes yeah other companies either don't touch it or touch it just a little so I'm glad EA is kind of really bringing this in front of Congress quicker than any other company right because it is important it is a new tech and we know those guys over there are usually slower on tech

and anything that's happening especially in the game world and so it's great that we're getting these answers right now yeah so that designers don't have to wait until they're really old right so we can react to it now and I think on the consumers side it helps because we're getting reactions kind of like what Larry is saying is like cosmetics fine anybody hate bleep boxes that kind of pivots the gameplay narrative right and so I think now they know right especially with all the Star War battlefront stuff and all man every three months it's always EA so it is always yeah so it so it's great that they brought this to everybody's attention kind of pissing everyone off and they have the ability to kind of step back and rethink their strategy without going bankrupt or whatever because any other company would be I think harder to rebound from this do you guys think it has now become too expensive to just do good business in

the games industry at a top level do you think it's all greed that's driving this or is it literally like they have to grasp at every possible penny I'm going exactly you know I mean like is are we outside of the realm of like hey we made a good game and sure you can buy these like little micro trans things but not trying to get $3,000 credit card purchases out of you we can if you spend a hundred bucks on this by the time you're done we're happy do you think corporations will stop being greedy exactly what you think so this this is a loaded question at the basic chord no the corporation's goal is to make money no matter what they tell you no matter how fluffy their commercials are and tell you that they're looking after your privacy and they come on there they exist the sole reason they exist is to make money but I do not think that we will see the end of micro transactions or loot boxes any time soon unless of

course they become illegal but game development as you guys know and as the listeners know has become so expensive that short of raising the price and you're already paying $60 for a game I remember back in the day that games were 30 bucks yeah I remember 49 and then going to 60 and be like ah xbox 360's at the bar 59.95 yeah it was just what the hell is this you know it's become easier for people to swallow $60 for a new title but consumer demand for better quality for new technologies for better graphics for new gameplay ideas for connected worlds that'll cost a lot of money that a $60 price tag might not exactly cover anymore and if you're gonna tell me that say the new cyberpunk game cost 75 dollars to buy I might take a step back and go do everything I spent $75 on a

game I might not for that you now bucks us right before they charge you for Lou Fox's before they you know and this is not a slight on them this is more I guess a slight on anthem but before the game is even finish and they release in and you just bought a $75 pile of junk you know that it makes it harder for a consumer to to make that impulsive buy and I think that if you see that you'll see the game industry decline at least sales decline so I microtransactions will always be a staple to supplement that added expenses I don't think it's appropriate that as you guys put it for them to affect actual gameplay and gameplay mechanics if you want to create all the cosmetic items in the world go for it personally I would prefer to go more of the epic and yeah it's not even Blizzard but more epic where it's you want this here's the cost of it buy it yeah I

think that mechanic will gain more popularity first the you can give us 10 bucks and you can have a chance to get this yeah I think what's what scares me and why was kind of framing the question like the ethical like do they have to go after three thousand dollar credit card purchase like we all know of course if you're in a for-profit business you do want to make profit but to better frame how I'm asking that is to the point of cannibalization mmm is what I mean so like you look at the fishing industry we are killing off species of fish because of overfishing each individual corporation is like well you know we want to sell more tuna this year we want to sell more salmon this year we want to sell more X they're fishing these seas and now they're running out of supply because they've gotten to the point where they have gone they've chased so far down towards a profit that they've started to cannibalize yeah and so that's what I'm getting at is when you're cannibalizing the community do you still put you know

pedal-to-the-metal try to make as much profit as I can before I get out of here that's my sentiment is I feel like there's a lot of people who are like yeah this is cannibalization but they're still fish while I'm here yeah so while my resume will say hey I got them X more billions of dollars let me go to Netflix with this shining star don't give a [ __ ] that I've cannibalize the industry and I've made it harder for consumers to buy games in a way that it's causing companies to shut down smaller studios not exist big triple-a titles not as many mid tier studios disappearing you know I mean that's where we are as like I feel like cannibalization is happening it's definitely happening but it's like I think it's often distracted in disguise by the numbers because every year the game industry is profiting right we're constantly breaking records every year yeah but how are we that money it's like he said it's like we do have Lester studios unless your games are coming out and in terms of blockbuster hits but maybe more indie and we're kind of covering our losses through other means that isn't exactly a

parent and so yeah the I think the yeah the the the ability with corporations is intrinsic the intrinsic nature of corporations select there yeah that makes sense thank you thank you you're on a roll you're ro keep it going so their whole thing is about making profit within the next quarter right they're only shortsightedness is is kind of conquering everything that they're doing so they don't care about what's going on five ten years down the line I guess that's my point right like if I was running Xerox right now not only do I want to sell the most printers this month but I want Xerox to continuously sell the most printers like for decades but their method is always like if I am two steps ahead I'll always be ten steps ahead but that is not true right you're driving all the talent out yeah

by the time five ten years who's left it's gonna be a bunch of interns and newcomers who are fresh fresh want to crumble already now is the that's the you know that's the scary part so that's that's again see that's what scares me is like I completely understand I need or I want to be driven by revenue and profits and grant but there's also a responsibility and ethics that you can't overlook because you're basically going to ruin your opportunity to even make money in any sort of like generous way like even agreed like sure greed but if you if you get to the point where you're past the point of return where there's like at least equilibrium right like you're now every time that you grow you're making it harder for you to be sustained Yeah right you're killing your own company at that point in time and that's the scary thought what's happening like who's laugh if we're talking about the Tigers EA we're in a greenness but they're also

cannibalizing themselves I mean the bungees split from Activision and Blizzard because of them you know the control that they wanted to have on their titles you know and when you're seeing you know in this this was a great article that came out the other day on that really kind of went in the inside of the split is one of the one of the big sticking points was Activision kept driving loop boxes microtransactions and Bungie didn't want that and with egg actually ended up getting a lot of backlash and tarnish on the reputation Bungie did because when they released the ever verse store in destiny to it was always designed to be cosmetic only but then people started discovering that these cosmetic only additives had actual gameplay elements built into it and so they effectively forced Bungie more or less you know obviously this is depending like take this article for it being true forced Bundy to put microtransactions and loot boxes in place for game mechanics and cosmetics

and sort of hid that fact from people and when you do that you lose your consumers trust doesn't mean yeah game design thank you yeah but you there there is I think there's a way to effectively correct this course of action and a lot of that is on the customer service level you you hear champions stories come out of epic as much as we're sort of hating on them right now for their predatory practices with skins that I have heard stories from parents who have received these three four thousand dollar credit card bills had called epics customer service line and had it all refunded mmm-hmm I don't know if the kids account would then get banned or if they pulled the skins or whatnot but I would say that good customer service from studios and publishers will correct everything yeah I know these are digital booms you're

you're printing money you know I I you know I I don't play it I probably would too you know you bought them okay you want your money back sure it up give me you can give me all back yeah it's a you know it's a digital currency it's a digital good it's very easy to to wipe off yeah especially when nothing's actually being hosted on the end-users computer is there anything else that's comparable to loot boxes on other industries right now besides ah besides gambling and are gambling yeah hmm this literally just a combination of gambling and Bitcoin and what is it like what is even if I let's start breaking it down right like I'm paying real money for a chance to get things that are technically intangible like they don't really really know they'll give me some sort of experience and then once the experience is done it's gone it's not in cash it's not it's not even the lotto

you know what I mean it's like there's things that relate there's overlap but I guess money in doubt it's different I've either of you been to Japan Plinko or those little pachinko machines those little capsule things where you put like a dollar in or again in and then you get half so with the coin in it you don't know which toy you're gonna get but there's like six of them on the machine yeah that makes sense that's the closest real-life thing I can think of but then you're not worrying about massive credit card bills you're just worrying about losing all your cash okay so then the closest thing I could think of if we are willing to also look at video games but not call them loot boxes then digital packs for like over hearthstone or for Magic the Gathering those are please but exactly it's your yeah oh yeah you're getting a random assortment of things and then once the service is over it's gone forever yeah and even in in those situations you

can almost attach a value to those items so like the original and I haven't seen it but still up maybe it is in its original server load and cards but the first time Magic the Gathering went online people were selling accounts or selling those cards for money yes um although very bad online in different places so you know that could have actual value to it there is that big issue with the Counter Strike skins where the guns and the knives and all that you know those have and I'm surprised somebody would pay that kind of money but there are some skins in Counter Strike that will sell for four or five hundred dollars so here's why here's an unpopular opinion especially because I think I had two examples where one is actually used I would say well and the other is actually used not well but they're both doing almost the exact same thing is pay-to-play design from the bottom up for example if you're playing World of Warcraft right now you can start a level one character and grind your ass off

until you finally get to 110 and then start enjoying the real content the new content from 110 to 120 or you can pay 60 bucks to skip up to 110 and then just enjoy the 110 to 120 leveling experience I don't mind the bottom-up level design because I know that like from 1 to 110 is very lonely experience at this stage in the game and it's a lot of time that you're gonna be playing a game that you're supposed to be in a community supposed to be like enjoying things and groups and tiers even though they've done a couple of things to help make that not as bad you know it's still like for the most part you're gonna do a lot of stuff by yourself yeah so you're not really gonna enjoy that game to like let's say 110 to 120 in my eyes then you have which could be a month or so away yeah exactly exactly so I understand that like hey buy this thing that will skip that and it's it is giving you a gameplay increase right like it's making you more powerful it's letting you skip content to join the rest of the audience you know what it means to like I don't feel bad about that but then there's another game that for some reason I feel

it's sheisty as like the NBA 2k series almost literally does the same thing it's like hey you're your pro that you make shitty stats shitty shitty shitty stats you can play the top level stuff you're gonna get dominated no one's gonna want you in their group no one's gonna want to play with you you have to either grind for almost the full product cycle before the new one comes out if you want to get to the top level stuff for free or you can then just buy the boost and then they'll let you start playing like you'll actually have a character who has stats decent enough where you can play and like people are gonna [ __ ] on you just from seeing your profile for some reason even though it feels like the exact same thing I don't mind it in World of Warcraft but I'd like it bothered me to my core to see that it was like intentionally done that way in like NBA 2k mm-hmm it's like I guess wow it's like we've released six seven games of content that we're helping you skip through whereas 2k literally the one game it's own product cycle it's like hey you can't even get to this content yet get

yourself these stats and now you can start enjoying the game I guess maybe that's where I stand on it being like a shitty but you know I think if done right I don't mind letting people buy their way through something to join a community of people to make it more fun I don't necessarily know exactly where I feel on that yet but I feel like Blizzard is kind of doing it better than 2k for sure I don't think they designed their product intentionally to like oh you suck it's going to suck give us your money for the game that you just bought like someone just gave you a game I hear you're Brendan here's a copy of NBA what is it 20 though 2k 20 here's a copy oh by the way I just gave you an obligation because you're not gonna start enjoying this game until you put in the 65 bucks to boost your character it's like giving somebody a puppy for their birthday on NBA I don't play it yes I don't I follow it myself

and so it's it's more like people are just upset that I've bought this game and I have to buy into the experience even further there's no way significant unless you put a lot it is but again it's like there's gonna be a 2k 21 right but it's yeah it's gonna take you 10 months to do it feel free to get to that point so really how much time do you really have to you know being in that community exactly and that's I guess that's the big issue but didn't see looking at your world of warcraft yeah example you're gonna jump into a game use that boost and yeah you'll have ten levels between 110 and 120 to learn how to play the game but you know when you get to 120 if you really learn the game you're gonna be completely lost and there's so many mechanics in that system where you're I feel like you would be almost disadvantaged doing that junk whereas NBA 2k it's almost the same thing to look if you're terrible at the game the point of that grind is not only

to obviously get your character to a pro sort of level but to get your own skills there too mm-hmm would you say like there's an irresponsible amount of time though you know ii mean like if you're like daily player contributing to your stats every single day and you're on average still taking about six seven months and now you only have a few months left to enjoy the game before that I hate do it all over again how the world works no no I I do agree with you in that aspect if you're going to have systems in place that take that are designed from the start yeah to force individuals into paying that sum that's a big no for me that's almost as bad as as a loop box that tells you hey buy this awesome skin for ten dollars but it's a point zero five percent chance of dropping uh you know if you're designing your game to drive monetization I don't think you're designing the game for one it's longevity and two for for the actual

consumer who's going to be playing it yeah where world Warcraft is in a massive expansive game you have 120 levels worth of content the game's been out since about 2004 that would make sense for me it would take you three three weeks to a month to get to the end of where the game is at now yeah that game like you know NBA 2k yeah six months later we should pick you six months to do that brother you brought up another good point that actually I can reference when I bought the latest expansion I get like a free character boost up to not I'm not the top level not 110 but I think I get to like level 100 so just for buying the new game they gave me a free level zero to level 100 boost so I was 10 levels behind the starting point and then I could start the game and actually be that much closer to playing the content that I paid for mm-hmm so it's that feels a little more response to say that like you we know we have this massive system and we know there's this grind so you paid 60 bucks for this

new content but you can't play it because you're a brand-new player you have to start from level one that's that's tough you know you just bought the $60 game that you get to play ten months from now right so I at least can't shake that I guess in destiny did the same thing if you bought the Forsaken bundle with all the stuff in it for forty bucks and things now at $39 because they're moving everything around they give you a boost to skip past all the original content because they know you're buying it to play with your friends who are max level yeah and I think they also know that the original half of the game is terrible you guys take the old-fashioned cheap model together but I don't buy anything extra outside there's no game I guess I'm this is huge in only recently in shooters right where the loot box is starting I think maybe probably from EA but then call it Call

of Duty for sure yeah yeah and then but most it's mostly prevalent in RPG and in games like that strategy games right so I've never really prescribed to this i-i've always been very cheap to buy anything extra I've never bought an iPhone game ever right really no really never never kids know I look at it because I'm so I'm so primarily from the PC days where I used to play games online for free right after I bought the game as long as I have internet connection yeah so even with the Xbox online pass and console pass to play gaming online it's completely foreign to me and I refuse i refuse i have my internet i have my box i should be able to connect so play my games online here's a very interesting question for you because i brought this up before is it time especially with how fast our internet speeds are around the world Oh

100% America were fast enough that I think we could bring this back remember back in the day when you used to play unreal or when you used to play Quaker and in the shooter you were linked together as a group of like ten to 15 commuters land right whoever fastest connected here was exactly peer-to-peer was providing the gameplay could you imagine when that host dropped everyone froze for like a good five to six minutes by the way to figure out who had the next who had the next fastest transitioning the game but maybe it's time to see a resurgence or to see somebody try that again to like hey we've created this really cool game that a lot of people want to play at most will pay service space to host the lobby but once you like do a match make and find a game you guys are actually just running it yourself dedicated not dedicated but like people piss people off because you would always take that time to looking for who had the best connection but I play that 10 player game sure but I bring that I bring this up as a trade off to say that like we can go back to just selling you a $60

game again yes because we don't have any sort of long-term server costs or like like hey we made the game as long as people have it you can play it all you want no it's definitely I like all these creative endeavors that these corporations are doing is to offset how the game being sold for $60 isn't enough in your alright and first of all yes it is upsetting to raise the prices on these game but I think $60 way too low for a lot of these games compared to what the ps3 days yeah like a ps3 game versus a ps4 game is significantly well I'm feeling better products yeah you're getting a way better product with the ps4 game nowadays right so naturally that price well yeah but like with all the loot like I'm I definitely agree with you guys with the way it's how we boxes are misused but when it is used correctly I completely in fun and a lot of people are obviously they're buying

into it so there's that so what would you define as used correctly using correctly as like the cosmetic way like if I want to okay Anna D sake I'm fine with that you want to make your character look better as long as it doesn't Trump or stomp on anybody's gameplay incentives what about power boosting higher boosting like your skills and abilities example I think that's actually a good way because if I bought a game I'm finally buying into a while I never played Wow and but let's say I want to start because I saw the expansion looking dope yeah I agree I don't want to wait 8 months before I play the new content so that that's a great way to kind of kind of boosts the player base because that that's good for the the game itself now that you have a new player base and you have new players introduced to the world and that means that the development team can keep developing yeah so overall I think it really wins in that kind of scenario I

think the only problem we have is when EA does like that I only see them being like the core is like what the [ __ ] like there's all they're always pushing like how far they can go with this stuff yeah it's you know what you know what would make blue boxes a lot more fair is if there was like some sort of time value of money comparison to breakdown yeah like the scenario so they're like here it goes here's our Darth Maul character yeah to get Darth Maul without paying anything it's gonna take you 14,000 hours of gameplay time right ok so like let's just say that that's one of the costs that they set next scenario you win a free loot box every time you play the game that only has two items in it out of 10,000 items total and Darth Maul is one of those items so here's the like free way that you can get it yeah the paid way you're getting a loop box with five items it's powered up to give you at least two high powered items and he's considered let's say a high powered item you now have a one in four hundred chance of getting one and that costs $2

$3 right that's what I call [ __ ] and flip tables because it's like you're showing me two scenarios where the investment far outweigh like significantly far outweighs it's not even a choice yeah like in regards to me giving you time out of my life to invest if my interest is getting the Darth Maul yeah you're literally saying I could kill myself I could kill myself or I can just pay three bucks up to with a 1/3 or 400 whatever huh yeah I think they're just the gambling aspect the probability game already just go check that out exactly because that's just your basically [ __ ] them right it's a it's a what if you what if you have okay and what I mean by by adding both is what if and we'll use your Darth Maul example you could get Darth Maul but you have a chance to also get Darth Maul plus two skins oh that's you're still getting you're still getting what you want but you have the probability factor the chance factor

of getting what you want and then a little bit extra but what's the delivery method for that is that the loot box or is that like that would be that would be the loot box okay you would you would pay for the Darth Maul loop box and then you would roll the dice to see if you get the you know equivalent to $5 each skins included in your loop box I think I may be okay with that it fattens it fends the the kitty you know makes me feel like I'm getting more value so I'm more inclined I guess to buy it especially if it was the same price yes it seems to be like a percentage there where 80% is what you want and then 20% like I think if you play around the percentage of it goes too far to 50/50 then it's it becomes too much of a problem and I guess where I stand on it is like you just want your player community to feel like not extorted right so like if I say hey look you can get Darth Maul on a loop box each sluice box cost 300 and let's say it's a 1 in 400 chance let's just assume the average

person spends like 150 bucks trying to get Darth Maul what is the time value equivalent of that 150 dollar purchase where it's like it's not 14,000 hours maybe it's like 200 hours and you can get a Darth Maul if you just keep playing games and earning the free to item Luke box and then the probability works out in a similar fashion because if someone chooses to invest time and another person chooses to invest money I at least want to know that like I can respectively look both people in the eye and say you can enjoy this product and I think that's where my biggest problem with the loot boxes is one is like technically you can get Darth Maul put it through the free technically but you could pay and have Darth Maul with way more of a guarantee and an assurance and you won't be 90 years old when you finally get it you know what I mean yeah I'm technically yeah you can get it by 90 or you could pay 150 bucks worth of loot boxes right now like that's that askew is where I'm like F these guys yeah and everyone and that's

why everyone's there's no one buying into the same thing this is a great deal lookit I got 500 bucks yeah you're still whole bunch of people who want to buy loot boxes even if the free time grind was respectable and like actually was a decent equivalent right and you'll find the people on YouTube who will buy you know six seven hundred of the boxes just so they can get the revenue back via video and say look at me opening up seven hundred loot boxes yeah and you you you you'll always have those people at the end of the day though the the FTC and government and regulatory body and the parents they're not worried about that person they're worried about little billy sitting on his computer that has your credit card loaded onto his account God knows why you gave it to him but if you did and now he's just sitting there going click click click click click click click click click because he doesn't realize that that money is your money and he doesn't understand the value of that money or how hard you work

to earn that money yeah so because it's a predatory nature of everything you know I'll play the devil's advocate sure god forbid they ever put a threshold like 10 purchases your ass like ready login your account against and this intimate mm-hm but like if we're fighting for the kids and the children every single time oh my god at some point it's the parents fault right I mean I I agree at some point you gotta you got to step in and saying let's draw a credit card you idiot so don't to them in the first place yes but like III how many children are there that are doing what is there a percentage where it's like I'd say that an epidemic for you I I would actually say that it's a relatively high statistics pretty high that it's ending the attention that Congress and Senators are presenting these bills okay for me it's it's a good say that's one of the things that I would be upset about but it's more so that like just how its set up in

general is literally a downhill point towards just pay us the money yeah you know I mean and I guess that's where I had the biggest problem it's like because I don't see any children in casinos but I see a lot of adults with gambling addiction and those people also are swept up in these like luboc scenarios as well and so for me it's more like look just just be honest be ethical make it fair cuz people are still gonna buy the loot boxes in droves yell because a lot of people have access to money and time is more valuable than money but don't make don't disrespect time so much then it's an illusion of choice I only have to just spend the money because I would never spend that time yeah well one of the things that I brought up to Larry a few episodes ago it's like I'm surprised that the consoles are or like the Triple A guys are kind of getting the backlash first right because no one's really talking about the mobile industry they've been doing this for us so what's disagree with you right okay so the concept of freemium games I would

say has been given a lot of backlash for a very long time I would say the big difference between why Mobile is sort of flying under the radar is that the amount of people who are playing mobile games in the age range and the demographic of them are so different compared to those who are playing console and PC games that the individuals who are paying the freemium currencies you know the candy crush generation who are paying for those extra lives or the thing that smashes like the candies and whatnot those are mostly adults who know better and they know what they're spending yeah versus when you're got a game that's sticking that shiny new skin on the pedestal in front of the child knowing that the marketing is aiming for that younger player that doesn't know any better and that's that's where that issue is but I forget the actual name of the

episode but South Park did an entire episode on freemium currencies and freemium games in pain to unlock time time gated content no there there by no means immune from it they're just not the ones in the spotlight yeah I want to see that episode too is they did a great episode on videogames the world of warcraft 1 back in the day oh yeah yeah I was it was some Canada game where they ran around and eat maple leaves and the whole joke to the game is how stupid the game was but because they had a time gate that you had to wait for a certain amount of time before you can run around and eat the leaves again I think it was Stan kept buying to unlock the time Gainey ended up charging like I think a thirty thousand dollar bill to his parents credit card oh man yeah and you know publishers don't care it's not their problem its parents trans problem

so yep well hey I actually learned a lot and we got the talk a lot of and they expressed our opinions and feelings on loot boxes in general I hope some high ups some neckties get it get a hold of this podcast and get a better reading because they're looking for solution I hope they do well they're gonna have government regulations and mandates pretty soon hello how else do we screw these kids without them knowing I'm sure they'll think of something they always do yeah yeah yep they'll find ways if it's not loop boxes they'll figure out something new somebody will figure out a way to monetize content yeah well uh with that said we've had a wonderful podcast with you we've been doing this for over an hour now and so we have a surprise mechanic for you Brandon now we're gonna step away from the microphones and we're gonna give you a couple minutes to just talk directly to our audience to promote raise awareness advertise or plug just shine some additional spotlight on something that is important to you something you think is awesome or even you know whatever products are the things that

you're about to bring to the table yourself so without further ado sir the floor is yours you just kinder egg me well you know again I want everyone at it a chance to take out a look at the firm press start legal calm is our website you can find tons of information and resources we have had a little bit of a break on our bi-weekly ask me anything but we will be picking them back up again very soon we're growing everything is is changing and we want to open our doors to all of you if you have questions if you need legal advice if you need help please reach out to us press start legal comm Zack at press start legal calm we're always around we're always here you know we're we're in the community we want to help you guys we want to you know make your games the best that they can and make sure no one's going to suit you over them and be prepared for the the next generation of of stadia style software or hardware

whatever the hell they're calling that sure that yeah I agree we will see me when they call it something final do they have a name for that style of the Netflix style I keep calling the Netflix for evenings but they haven't really called it streaming on they don't have a moniker for it though we can reference because Xbox game past we just talked earlier about stadia has their own thing PS pay stations were probably going to have their own thing so there is no like category that wouldn't like visit on it's not even online streaming because obviously that those are the streamers so you need to come up with a name it's so yeah it's gonna be up to what was what was on Live they were first yeah that's what everyone for him on live was the first ones who did this and it was terrible test number playing the beta of it mm-hmm yes I saw yeah that's the future I Thurmond be able to play your video games on your phone at full 4k quality

while you're sitting in traffic while your self-driving car takes you to work only tells I can't wait all right Zach we're gonna let you go man thank you so much for everything that you brought to our podcast and our companies as well so we wish you the best and you know we hope that we don't have to see you too often because that means that somebody somewhere is suing us one of those relationships was like we're glad to have evil hope we don't see you kind of thing yeah I'll talk to you soon Larry Charles say good you [Music]

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