How Studios Can Win with Financial Storytelling That Moves Investors

[Music] Hello world. Welcome to the Pocket Gamer Podcast with your hosts me, Brian Baglo, and our CPO, the chief podcast officer herself, not fractional, full-time, Miss Peggy Ansults. Hello, Peggy. It's a delight to see you. How are you? I am good, Brian, and it's good to see you, too. And we're at a time when, you know, looking back at all the amazing people I met over the last couple of months because I was I was quite the uh quite the jet setter there. But um it was all worth it because I brought back great guests. How about yourself? How's how's the summer been treating you? It's been great. Um I have been the opposite. I I've been spending a lot of time at my desk. Um, we're building something really new and different across the whole of Scotland. And I kind of have my my head in about a dozen different spaces just now in between multiple

funding applications, reimagining Scottish Games Week as Scottish Games Fest and really trying to build out a completely different way to understand and support games from a government level all the way down. It's all about funding. It's all about reimagining this, reframing this. And I think that brings us in a great way to where we are right now because it's not just about the hit games, right? It's also about being smart financial operations. Great storytelling with numbers, which is what you have to do anyway, right? You're talking to the government. And our guest, well, she's helping studios talk to their peers, uh, talk to their investors, uh, talk to us. So that's why we're having a bit of a crash course, a little bit of even a master class I think with our guest today, Era Gonhilda Doer. And she has the cred, the capabilities. She's a former finance lead at Supercell CCP games as well. Now she serves wow fractional CFO through

her company figures and helping of course studios scale up, understand what the numbers really mean. That is a talent. And I have to say, I met you, Era, at the Mobile Finance Collective dinner, and pun intended, because you'll you'll indulge me, Brian, it wetted wetted my appetite for more. So, I am so delighted to have you here. It's always fantastic when Peggy goes out and visits all these big events. She finds the most interesting and fascinating people. So, Eve, you've built your career around strategy numbers and helping companies make the smart moves under sometimes immense pressure. Um, and your personal passion is strategy games like Dominion. So, how do the two fit together and let you do what you do best? Help founders pitch and scale with with confidence. Yeah, thank you for the question and thank you for the invite to the podcast. I'm I'm really honored. So, the connection between strategy games and

and numbers, like these are definitely more connected than you might think. Um, I like I like I love strategy games because they train your brain to anticipate, adapt, and think a few moves ahead. And that's very similar to what I do as a fractional CFO. Like, except the stakes, they're a bit higher than with play cards. to just put that as a full disclosure. So what it does is it is that allows you to see the emerging patterns in your strategy and you need to realize at every point in time in your game like what you need to do to alter your strategy. And so for an example like in Dominion like maybe there are some out there that know the game too. Um there's like a pivot in the game where you need to like shift and you need to put all your focus in collecting victory points. like up until that point there's a different strategy on what you're doing in the game. So you need to be um like

carefully assessing when that shift happens and you can think about it in case of strategy um that you need to be able to be aware when the market shifts are happening and you need to be aware what are the internal drivers of a company. So in reality, like whether you're managing a burn rate or you're preparing an investor pitch, the ability to see the patterns, be able to like weigh the trade-offs and stay calm under pressure, that's key. And strategy games, they they sharpen these instincts in a low-risk environment, which I think can help you be better in a real life setting. The whole time you're saying that, I'm thinking yes, because isn't that the word, Brian? pivot, you know, and if you can do it in the game, you will be able to do it in real life because that's what founders, that's what studios are doing constantly. You have to adapt. It's about pivoting. I think that's great training. I think they all now have to go out and play

Dominion. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And and you couldn't be you couldn't be more right, Peggy, and Ella. I I absolutely take your point. You know, the the one thing we know about the games industry, the one constant is change. And so remaining agile and be able to take those pivot points and make those decisions and the kind of strategic long-term decisions for your your studio is so important. Let's talk about your role as a fractional CFO. You know, how is that different from the finance lead or the person who's in the studio who might already be on staff? It's either because they are a finance lead or someone said, "Hey, you do this because we're busy over here." uh you know it can sort of be an accidental uh CFO or finance person. What what's different with your role as a fractional CFO? What do you do? What do you come in there? What is what are you doing differently and and and and better frankly? So typically when a finance lead enters um a scaleup

or a startup like the first finance lead most of the time they're very focused on the day-to-day operation that's being you know it's invoicing it's accounting payroll reporting these are all very important stuff it's a sanitary thing that you need to have all the time but this is very reactive so as a fractional CFO I bring the outside view in and I try to help founders see the the bigger picture uh model different scenarios and and prepare for investor scrutiny and help them to think long term. So it's a a bit of a shift from like managing the past to shaping the future. And in terms when I've entered um like bigger like more mature companies it has been about the same thing. I come in with the outside view and just kind of help them get a a different reference point. Hey, this is what we're doing. And sometimes they just need a little bit of a help

connecting like strategy and finance to operations. And when they get that triangle good together, they've actually accumulated a they have a stronger muscle to drive the company forward. you said investor scrutiny and I'm like that sounds very specific and that it's going to be um extremely key and also potentially unpredictable what that means. What does that mean now? Because maybe before it was just like you know are you really getting and keeping the players but now it's probably something very very different. Well, it it is so like in today's landscape um first of all like these last two years have been really hard with funding. Um so with investor scrutiny it means that they are they are in today's landscape they are more heavily focused on the numbers and the traction. Retention is key and has

always been key. Whereas before the focus was a little bit more on the people's side. So if you had already a track record being a good lead, you've already been able to um scale up a couple of good games, then you know you had a lot behind your name. That is not the case today because a lot of things has been put upside down in in one area. So you need to be able to have a couple of scenarios, be able to respond to that, but be very sure on the narrative like what is it that you're doing? And of course the narrative, you know, it varies a lot depending on, you know, at what maturity stage the company is at. Mhm. I think that's the thing. The expectations from the investors out there are are changing. So it's not just the the steady growth, it's not just the work that you've delivered in the past, but how you adapt to the change that you've discussed and how you are seen to

be preparing to be able to pivot. And I think also what speaks to why this is hard is that all data shows us that um already existing IPs, so older games that have a strong IP, they dominate the market. So it's really hard to push through and like get through the clutter. And so being able to do that, you need to have something you need unique. You need to show that traction. You're doing things something very differently or um you have a different setting of the studio or different mindset like how you're going to roll to the market. How are you going to engage the community? So you really need to think about the whole picture. Um, it is definitely harder now than 10 years ago. Like that's the reality we're looking at. That it this is all making a huge amount of sense. But what you're offering is this just for studios at the point of scaling or startups. At what stage could a game studio think about

bringing in, you know, you or someone like you? Yeah. Um, honestly, I would say sooner than you think. Um, so if you're starting to raise money or hire behind your beyond your founding team or you feel like numbers are becoming a thing that you avoid in your company, that's usually a very good time. And even just a few hours a month can kind of help get clarity and structure that can change the trajectory that you're on. Um, so like if you are a young team trying to fund, it's really good to get a a perspective of a CFO on the storytelling and the pitch deck. If you're scaling, you need to at a certain point you need to respond and report to investors regularly. There are certain reports you need to have in place and it's also there's a story around like what's happening and in what direction we're going. That's a really good point to

have a CFO help craft that. And obviously also beyond that, when you've gotten to maybe a more stable state, then it becomes more around larger strategy, long-term thinking, and how it ties with operation and headcom planning. So very different needs at every stage. It's clear that I need you when I'm starting to think about growth and scale. But is there something in the process that I can be implementing even even earlier on than that? You know, sort of like prep to eventually have ERA come in and and you know, introduce clarity. You know, you can't come into total chaos. So, it'd be interesting to hear from you for small midsize studios, you know, what is the critical process or even mindset that they can implement like right now to be ready for you coming up? Yeah. So, I'd like to respond

to that. Um, don't be afraid if everything is in chaos. Like a good fractional CFO can just manage fine with that. That's just that's that's not an issue. So don't be shy if things are in complete chaos. That's first of all what I want to say. But in terms of thinking beforehand if it's a process or a tool or anything. I think for for gaming studios in particular of course all analytics they are very important. You want to keep your eyes on what's happening in the business and how are the revenues coming in. So you want to be able to see, you know, retention, uh, revenue, your arboo. You want to make sure that you have a good understanding of what you're investing into your user acquisition and how that translate into your payback periods. These are key drivers. Um, I think it's just good to have that

mindset to think about. You know the most basic thing would be have to have a basic understanding what's the inflow of revenues and what's the outflow. So understanding of your runway even like I think I I think that doesn't excite a lot of people. What's a what's a runway? You know a runway is is how many months you have left of your cash in your bank. You need to have that understanding because that's going to dictate when you need your next funding round. that's going to dictate when when are you in a crisis mode or when can you have time to relax and you know um well I don't think anyone has time to relax like when do you have time actually to think about maybe longer term thinking instead of answering to those that are essential for today's business. I'm blown away. I love I love this. This is actually life coach for us. Brian, we'll get her.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like it's um we might have to chat separately outside this this um recording. Ella, sure. Sure. So, this is incredibly valuable information and it is one of those things that I know a lot of studio founders, studio heads, and founding teams struggle with because everyone just wants to get on and make the game. But um thinking about the business itself rather than what you're trying to produce can really be a big mindset shift for a lot of people. What would your advice be to studios at that point where they're going from we have enough money just about to build the thing to how do we start to build the future of our business um without stalling momentum or getting you know caught in the whole funding um process rather than getting the game out and and going from there. Absolutely. It's a good question and um I think you need to

be ruthlessly focused. You need to know what actually moves the needle for your next milestone. You need to invest there. So you need to think about what's your milestone and what's going to answer to that. Is that going to be improving retention, you know, um getting more revenue in or do you need a playable demo and you need to invest there. So don't try to be everything at once. And I think it's also key to be very transparent with your team. So when everyone understands the constraints that you're working on, then it becomes a creative challenge and not a crisis. You know, we always like to assume that a big problem needs big money to solve it. And there's a very inspiring TED talk where it's like actually it's kind of cool that you can you you almost don't think small because you think big

problem needs big money. But what you're saying is you know be transparent and if everyone's in on it then it might be you know we do have a big problem but get scrappy get creative do do something different to solve it rather than thinking oh big problem we need big money. So yeah, a small story here. The I was working with a founder and he was uh struggling to get people on board to accelerate growth. Mhm. And there was some organizational changes that were needed um a different mindset and the ability to experiment and fail fast. Mhm. And the numbers present that they really didn't relate to the teams. um so it didn't propel any actions there. So what we did is that we analyzed the perception of the teams and we figured out that the story had to be something more fitting for the teams. So the story

supported by data. It all evolved around how we as a company had evolved and where we excelled at and where we failed. Mh. And we connected that story with the what the players wanted, what they were calling for. And we supported all of that with market research and sentiments. Mhm. And this created a shift in mindset and an opening that unlocked growth and an understanding of why that growth was something to chase for beside the numbers. And the results were phenomenal. like they were approximately 77% increase on revenues like year-over-year and I think that speaks to itself. Yes. And the importance here is that this was never introduced to the game team as a crisis, but behind the scenes, you could have seen a cash flow problem. that wasn't actually introduced but there but the the focus area was on we we need to

grow and it was done like they were creative there was a creative challenge and there were barriers set and the team like we tried to help them get an understanding of where they could work where they could be creative and I think it was a a really good example of how to do this well I like that positive Brian Yeah, it's I I think the honesty and transparency is hugely hugely important. A lot of the problems the sector has faced in the last couple years is because studios are unable to sort of be honest with their staff, be honest with their teams and say this is what we need to do. You know, are you with us? So sticking on the the funding topic, um whether a studio's preparing for its first investment or meeting with its investor or managing the chaos after a breakout hit, you know, they uh they've found success and now they're

worried about what to do with it. Um what's the advice that you've gone in and spoken to studios about that you find them um most unwilling to um to take? Um, I tell them that they need to let go of the idea that the numbers, they speak for themselves. They rarely do. And in business, it's quite common to just kind of present numbers and you have a graph and an Excel sheet and you just believe that people know what you're talking about. That's just not the case. You need to craft a narrative around your data. Like, you know, why does this matter to us? Like, what does it tell us? where are we going? What does it tell us about our vision? And for me, it feels like that's uncomfortable for some founders, but it's essential if you want to inspire and propel forward. So, being able to have that story and guide your audience through the numbers that you have at

hand, that's going to help you um a lot with um being in investor ready. Um, and al actually being in the driver's seat in your investor meetings and creating that story is so important. You know, I keep saying to to game developers, if you can't get excited about your studio, why will anyone else? Um, and it seems almost ubiquitous. Um, and it seems to be this is an area where you excel. So, what do you tell founders to help them change that perception of the storytelling and harness the financial storytelling to to change perspective and drive culture and hopefully accelerate revenue? Yeah. Um, I always tell them that numbers are facts, but stories are what people remember. So when you're connecting your financials to your mission or to what you're solving and who you're building for and how you're growing, um that's the part that can can

change how people feel and feelings drive decisions. And financial storytelling when it's done good, it has the power to change perspective of people. And uh I've se I've seen that happen firsthand. And I think it's important to speak about perception because it it it goes pretty deep. So perception is something that's really deep inside of us, something that comes from early childhood or something that we've experimented with in our teenage years and then it kind of just gives us a guard rail and we keep living with it as adults. So it's something really deep inside of us and it affects our belief system and our belief system actually dictates what we think and what we act on. So if you can change that underlying perspective, it actually has

the power to change the outcome of how people talk and how they act. And so I just want you to imagine a company where there's a big resistance for change and think about like what is the group perception here and you can think about like what is the what is the beehive so to speak thinking because you can think about a company and all its people it has like a beehive type of thinking. There's an underlying perception as a group. And so when you realize where the perspective comes from so let's say perhaps it can be um let's say the perception is we have already reached all the success we can get. Mhm. Okay. When you understand if that is the case to be the perception then you can finally craft a narrative that supports changing that perspective. And imagine what you can do if you can

change a group perspective from this ones being we have already reached all the success we can get to maybe a more empowered one like we continually experiment and excel at growing using our success to support further successes. You see there's a complete difference in the perspectives. And if you can implement and affect this perception, it's gonna change actions and thoughts and hopefully help you reach the targets you've set yourself. But it's also the data there and that's what I think is interesting about changing it internally. uh Era and and of course you have to sort of also understand the mindset or put yourself in the shoes of of the investor um as well. Can you give an example of how you can use financial storytelling? Um okay, I'm going to speak to um early

startups maybe that are going for preede or or seed funding rather than those more mature. All right. And so when the company is really young and you're trying to get kind of off your feet, you're you're wanting funding because you you really want to get a full-blown product or full-blown game to the market and you're not there yet. you're quite early and you have a couple of metrics and they can they can come from all sorts of places and maybe you're not in a place where you've started to implement any kind of monetization or revenue, but that's something that you're going to be asked on like, hey, how are you going to how are you going to monetize? Um, is it going to be a subscription model or freeto play or any other? um they're going to start asking you a lot of questions that you may not have even data to support yet in what direction you're going. So being very mindful that you're trying to get the investment and

you want to focus on where is the biggest traction. So for an example I have a good example of a company that I've worked with where they try to um get attention and they test it out on social media. So no paid marketing but just testing out on social how is what we're doing kind of wiping just you know with a global audience and they got a huge traction. They got many many millions of people watching their videos and socials and and getting a following and and from there you could see how the funnel kind of how it came into their game. So they're not monetizing. They're very early. But this tells a story. And to just add on to that because I have a very specific um um company in mind. Um actually one day their servers they went down. So they had been scaling up their socials and their server went down. And you can think of that as a oh it's a bad thing. Our servers went down. And

actually that was the best thing that happened because they got a really good story also coming out of it. What happened is that the players and those that had started to play with their platform, they got insanely angry, like so angry that these people, they found out, you know, who the founder was and they started, you know, sending personal messages everywhere on on Instagram, on LinkedIn, they tried finding the emails, everything. And they got showered with um responses from the people that had been testing and trying out their game. Wow. And that that helped them set up a story of, hey, actually there's a real appetite here. We haven't figured out yet what the monetization model is. We want to have time to figure that out, but this is what we know. This is the traction. This is why they love us. And they love us that much that they go online to write us an angry note in my

personal inbox. So that's a you know that's an example of a story and also something that is happening that you can you can think about how you phrase it and how you can tailor and showcase the data that you have even though it's not perfect. It's very scattered but it tells the story and where you're going and that excites investors and love to have your thoughts on like the dos the don'ts here. I mean, what is a red flag you see in a in a deck um in a conversation that we can tell our audience is like, you know, do do what Erl just told us about building a story with your data, but don't do this. Yeah, there are a couple of things that come to mind. The first one being um a red flag is seeing an overly optimistic forecast with like no ties to past performance. like that's something

like the analyst minds just look at it as like no the the likelihood of this is very low. So it's a red flag. You need to have it based on something. um metrics that have no context that's not gonna give anything like um I want to give an example like why would you be showing you know I don't know how many how many people watch a specific ad if it doesn't relate to anything in what you're trying to do in the game or relate to the funding that you're trying to seek. So okay be focused on what metrics you are showing and why. And honestly I think the last one which is very important that is if there is a lack of clarity of what the funding is for if you're raising 2 million be very clear on how those two millions are going to get you to the next milestone. It's not just that it buys time to

figure things out. Like that doesn't drive anything. Again, that that makes a massive amount of sense. And and building on that is is there any and we've been talking about data and transparency, but is there anything studios should kind of avoid showing? You know, is there things that you should hide as a matter of course? Well, um, so you said, you know, maybe like what to show and like what to hide. And I think the word hide is maybe the wrong word. I cheerfully withdraw it. Not emphasize, deemphasize. There we go. Emphasize. So my advice there is like be transparent, but be also intentional. So if something is not relevant to your narrative, then then don't lead with it. You're not going to hide the data per se. You're open to it and if you get questions around it, of course, you share it. But be intentional with what

you're showing and show the data that actually builds confidence, especially around traction, engagement, and momentum. So, don't draw the investors in on every metric that you ever tracked. Yeah. Yeah. And know what supports your story. That's what you're saying. Absolutely. So, I want to switch gears and talk about another area where studios either need to look more or just overlooking all together and it makes me think about coming together with you, Era, because it was it was networking that brought us together. We were at a dinner and I enjoyed it completely and and learned a ton. That's why you're back here. But that's just it. you are advising founders about how to approach this more strategically. What are some advice that you can give us, give our audience? Because of course, finding that right fit through networking that's going to

get you further to that goal, even if it's just to have an investor listen to you. You're absolutely right. It's the it's the power of people and how we connect. I mean, we are all we're all human creatures and we crave for connection and when we connect um we have the ability to be able to um it's like a multiplayer and you don't know which multiplayer is going to be the biggest one. You don't know but it's about kind of giving and receiving. So what I see is that many founders they're they're builders like not necessarily all of them but many of them are builders and they're maybe not sellers. So they'd rather be kind of shipping than than smooing up to people and and honestly like is it worth it? They might be thinking but I believe that networking it's definitely not about selling. It's about building trust before you need it. And I like to think

about it as a like a long game. So you you give before you ask and you show up consistently and you're curious. Um I like to send small messages to people I've met all over to kind of tell them that I'm thinking of them. How are they doing? be more focused on their story and what they are doing instead of just sharing hey I've been doing you know a b cde e you know it's about being interested in the other person and there's a high likelihood that that will you know give results in the in the longer term I like that yeah I I I couldn't agree more you know this is something Peggy and I are naturally outgoing Peggy goes to so many events and I run several events and and it is the networking. It's putting yourself out there in front of the

universe and welcoming the connections it helps you make if you want to be all spiritual and philosophical about it for a moment, but with a purpose, but do you see value in going out beyond your existing network and really kind of putting yourself into other areas? Um, Ella, yes, 100%. Like every single event I go to, let it be let it be a birthday party or a big conference, I always seek out at least two or three people that I've never spoken with and I go to them and I tell them, "Hey, I'm Adla. Who are you and what are you doing?" And you you really never know what comes out of it. Um going beyond your network. Absolutely. That's key. um you build like these circles of network and then you you know after some period of time you can think actually how they link together and this network can offer you very different things. You might have a network of

friends and then you have a network of colleagues and then you have a network of investors, a network of communicators. And these all kind of they they they all help each other. And I think I think there's something about trusting your gut feeling when you're speaking with people. You know very early on um if if this is a person that you're going to continue investing in a relationship or or not. But getting to know outside of your comfort zone. Absolutely. That's key. But how how do founders across the games world keep those relationships going? How do you build them out and and you know keep them um keep them in your life because you know if you ignore and neglect them or you only show up when you need something, I'm assuming it's not going to go well or it's not going to be somebody who maybe welcomes you. what what are the ways to keep these things happening and what are the the mistakes that you've seen um some of the games

people and games founders make? I think consistency beats intensity. So like I spoken about before like a short note or a warm intro, you know, I saw this and thought of you like these small touch points, they definitely help keep a relationship alive. But I think it's also good to notice that um it's not like you need to be in contact every single day or every single week. You you may come in and and help someone with something. Let it be you connected someone with a network that they needed or you you know you helped review their pitch deck or whatever it was and that's going to speak volumes for a long time. So the next time when you reach out, let it be in six months time that someone is going to have you really at the top of their head. So keeping like these small touch points from time to time, that definitely helps to just keep that relationship alive. And I I

agree exactly what you said. The biggest mistake would be to only reach out when you need it. It really turns a relationship into something transactional. So like treat it like um you're tending a garden. You're not only grabbing the harvest, you you need to continuously, you know, Got it. You Yeah, that's that's a beautiful way to put it. What a great metaphor. I have a practical question because I agree totally. It's about keeping those touch points and then you get to a point where you've been to so many events that you don't really know who you know and you sort of need nudges and and something along the way. And I'm just curious is there any process system mindset because otherwise it's it's great great goodwill going to waste. Yeah. Okay. So, I I'm going to go pretty spiritual on

this one. Okay. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So, I'm a firm believer in energy, on the energy we give and the energy we receive. So, I honestly believe that I'm always at the right place and at the right time every single time. So that means that um I've gotten to know some amazing people that I didn't even know existed because I was at the right time at the right location and like I had nothing to do with that I was exactly there. I also feel that um tailoring to your network, have some following, writing on LinkedIn, have a newsletter that definitely helps to kind of keep that connection with those that are maybe more more acquaintances or more colder, but actually they could provide a lot of value in the longer term. And I'm pretty sure and I trust that they

will reach out um when there's something that I can help them with. So, it's a trust process I feel. And that's just such a good feeling. You know, where you are is the right moment. It's the right thing. I'm going to think about that and adopt that myself. This is it. You're in the right place. You're where you need to be. And you get what you give. Hell yeah. That feels good. So, now we're all excited, Brian. We got to find a way to get from this excitement back to the last question. Okay. No pressure. Um, so Ella, I I'm still processing a lot of what we've been talking about because we came in to look at things from a financial and business and numbers point of view and we've ended up talking philosophically. We've ended up talking spiritually, energywise, and really personal connections. Um, and I think that's hugely important because you can't run a business, grow a business, attract funding without all of the elements we've spoken about today, the

storytelling, the focus, and the and the personal approach. You know, showing up in the place where you believe you need to be. So, we could keep this going for another episode. I'm absolutely convinced. However, we are very near of time. So, I'm going to bring it right back to the reason that we're all here and the reason that we all get up every day. I'm pretty convinced which is video games. Now, we have a question or a couple of questions we ask every guest and you've already answered one, but it the two questions are what are you playing right now and what's your favorite game of all time? Yeah. So, right now I actually play extensively Super Mario Kart with my kids. Oh, wow. Excellent choice. Well, it's something that just really gives us great quality time together. And uh yeah, the kids make fun of me. I always go for Tanuki. I I love how furry he is in the game. Of course, this is this is these are all strong choices. It's You're finding a

fan base here, Ella. Yeah. And and then of all time, are we sticking with Dominion? So, Dominion is definitely one of my favorite and and board games is something that I really love playing. But when I think about my favorite game of all time, I'm going to say that that's Civilization. Um, and the reason for it is that that's probably one of the first games that I, you know, got introduced to. Like I had played Tetris and I had play Super Mario and these were fun, but this was a strategy game and I played this a lot when I was a teenager and I just really fell in love with, you know, understanding how your actions work on impact strategy and and the future performance and definitely probably influenced um my professional career somewhat. What a great answer. What a great answer. It's the granddaddy of all

strategy games. Yes. Well, this was delightful. And as you said, Brian, you know, we do have to stop, but I think we will continue. Era, I think you have a lot to bring to our audience. So, I will be circling back. you know, our paths will be crossing in that sort of energy philosophical way to um to bring you back and uh and and talk about you planning your next move, but also helping our audience grow their business. Wonderful. I'd love that. I would too. Oh, yeah. We we'd love to have you back. We'll leave that as a cliffhanger. Until the next time, Era, shall I say was fantastic. Let's do that. Thank you. This show is all about how to do your job better, how to make an amazing game, how to market it, and you have a say. So, if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on, then we

would love to hear from you. We want to hear from you. We want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market in all its wonderful complexity and strangeness. So if you have any suggestions for us, if you have any feedback for us, you can always get in touch. You can email us at podcastpocketgamer.biz. You can find us on Twitter @pgbiz. And you can reach out to us through the pocket.biz website. If you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts, you can find them at pocketgamer.biz/mpodcast. And we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows. And we've got you covered on all the major platforms. So, subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said, look for us on YouTube. If you want to read it, hey, you can do that, too, because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocket gamer.biz website. Tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future.