How Mythical Games is Balancing Web2 & Web3

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its first Fund in 2012 Lexar now manages an aggregated volume of over 2.8 billion euros across their early and growth stage funds the team actively advises and supports portfolio companies and marketing recruitment technology product development and Regulatory Insight accompanying Founders from seed to early stage growth stage or exit lakestars games and media team has made 18 Investments including 1047 games Zebedee modulate and Trace if you're interested in learning more or getting in contact with the lake Star Team simply go to lakestar.com or check out the details in the show notes and with that let's jump into the episode hello and welcome to the navic gaming podcast I'm your host Nick ovori today we are talking to one of the busiest web 3 players in the entire ecosystem with a ton of initiatives in the works and a finger in many many pies we are talking about mythical games creators of licensed

mobile football game NFL Rivals which cross 1 million downloads just a couple of months after its launch earlier this year as well as Blanco's block party a multiplayer Universe available on the epic game store in addition mythical operates the Mythos foundation on which it partners with other traditional game developers other web3 developers and Esports and Guild operators and they also operate their own mythical platform through which mythical publishes third-party developer games and I'm getting out of breath just talking about all these things there's also the the myth token and the small matter of about 300 million dollars that they've raised in Venture funding over the past couple of years including a recent 37 million series C extension that was announced just a few weeks ago in late June of this year so mythical clearly has a lot going on in both the web 2 and the web 3 spaces and a lot of bets across its own initiatives across third party partner initiatives and across multiple platforms and form factors and so to discuss mythical strategy plans going forward tactics and to talk more about

how all of these various bets are working out I'm very excited to invite to the Pod today mythicals founder and CEO John Linden John is a long time gaming veteran entrepreneur he has an incredibly experienced team which of course goes a long way to explaining his success in fundraising as well as attracting numerous top-tier Partners across the various initiatives so with that little introduction John welcome to the pod great to have you here yeah thanks for having me it's great to be here awesome so with guests like yourself um long time listeners will know I always like to start with the kind of journey into web 3. tell us a little bit about your background uh in games you have a very long very distinguished career uh in gaming mostly web 2 traditional gaming but some huge franchises in the mix there uh love to talk a little bit about those just give us your background and then I really and our listeners really like to hear what was the journey into web3 what was the aha moment that caused you to go after mythical and the opportunities that

you're pursuing right now yeah well let's uh well that's a lot to answer there for sure um been in gaming for a while so I've been uh I've been very fortunate in my career to see several different flavors of gaming and I think from there yeah you start seeing a little bit of pattern recognition which is great but it really started my career uh in gaming at um Activision Blizzard so obviously they've been in the news quite a bit and hopefully uh they get their deal done here but uh um it's uh you know it's great it's great to you know really kind of um you know kind of got that start there so really started in more the traditional PC console business um my first game was a game called Call of Duty so I got thrown right into the Call of Duty franchise as one of the studio leads uh one of the you know there's five game studios there so so we we focused a lot of multiplayer and and did some of the other initiatives around uh Call of Duty as well so we did you know some multiplayer stuff we did a lot of uh um um mobile type pieces we did a thing called Clan Wars for many years so it was really kind of fun to be able to you know kind of start your career with a big title like that and obviously there's a lot you know we kind of cut our teeth on that

um you know big annual release is a lot of pressure to get that game out but we really got to see a lot of the inner work into the gaming industry very quickly you know and so it was on on that franchise for uh I did ship four Call of Duties I was there for about five years and really kind of became obsessed with mobile which was what I thought next you know mobile is a growing industry yeah we asked Bobby every every year when can we get to Mobile when Korean mobile and his answer was generally it's not big enough yet I'm like well it's a 40 billion dollar industry it's like it's not big enough yet and so there's a kind of this uh there's a group under current at Activision and we just kind of started building our own mobile stuff a little bit to just test it out and uh so worked on a game called Skylanders battlecast which was really one of the first augmented reality games we used physical trading cards and all that to kind of make make these cars we sold packs in the stores which is where Skylanders toys were generally sold so we did you know kind of physical cards and became digital assets which was really interesting and it kind of sparked that interest around digital assets and what you know this whole physical the digital type world and uh you know shortly after that game came out um actress decided it's time for mobile

they ended up buying King and kind of a mobile strategy for Activision became pretty much Candy Crush yeah that was a big portion of it now obviously they've released a lot more since then but ended up leaving there to kind of follow mobile uh further so left in 2016 uh started a game uh kind of merged with the company and we created a company called seismic games we did a game there called Marvel Strikeforce and mobile which ended up being a you know top 25 game for many years so we got very very uh fortunate that our our paths at mobile we had some big success there too we did another game with Wizards of the Coast we did the magic the Gathering game we did a Jeopardy game the uh we had a you could voice recognition Jeopardy you could play along with like the Apple TV and things like that uh so we got to experiment a lot of things and then um fortunately for us the Niantic came and kind of bought that company only after you know two years after we had kind of really gotten into the heat of it and so 2018 came along and you know it was really starting to think of what comes next and I think we had seen a lot of Trends happening in gaming we've seen things that we had been frustrated with our careers and really thought things about you know digital

ownership and and tradable secondary economies and all that we really believe that was the next the future so I ended up kind of leaving the Niantic deal I stayed on as an advisor for a little bit but we started very early in this space I don't think we came at it for blockchain games or web3 we came out of just thinking about how that technology could be used to solve a lot of these challenges we've seen in gaming oh that was kind of the initial the initial path in you know I think I think um you know for us um we started seeing a lot of really interesting things happening you know I think the biggest moment for me you know I was a game maker you know and and we would you know I'd spend 30 or 40 dollars in free-to-play games mostly to support developers more than anything I wasn't ever a whale considered a whale and then next thing I know that you know these little things called crypto kitties came out and I bought like 600 of 2D images of cats and I'm like what just happened here because this is not my normal behavior and I think to me that's really what kind of started this spark that digital asset concept you know it's just like wow um for me it was it was cool it was fun the whole idea of smart contracts and you could program

these things or whatever that was really appealing but more importantly to me was was more around this is a shift in consumer Behavior right like it's no longer just buying Digital entertainment I can decide what to do you know I can decide I have the decision as a consumer on what do I do with these digital assets and I think that was really the piece that that kind of hooked us right away yeah and this is why I love doing this question for folks such as yourself you know who have a long career in gaming um you know you've seen a lot you've done a lot I I made some notes here you know obviously you've set it up in your past before this episode but you know we game makers have a lot in common you know Call of Duty is a game that I never worked on I wish I had but I that I'm still to this day addicted to it I love that game for console um you know everybody has their own favorite games across different platforms uh and we're going to get to this question in a second here to in fact my very next question which is you know as as game makers as Gamers you know we recognize different patterns across different platforms across different Technologies um and I think that the journey that

you've had um into the digital ownership piece in web 3 is very similar to to mine for sure cryptokitties also was the very first where it's like hundreds of dollars I'm like what am I doing here like yeah but but it was a I didn't regret it for one second it was more of a Hmm this is really interesting we're tapping into something here as as game developers and as game and so so I love to hear that journey and it is that aha moment um that really clicks I think uh and correct me if I'm wrong I don't want to speak for you here but I feel like that's that moment where it's like oh yeah that this is a different way of playing this game this is a different way of being part of this ecosystem this community um this franchise this IP it's a different way of engaging uh yeah that's that's exactly right we've seen we've seen dozens of of things than gaming that you know felt broken a little bit you know um you know to me what's really interesting is is watching the Esports kind of industry kind of grow up you know we got to be very involved with a lot of the early you know Call of Duty

you know um live streamers and groups like optic gaming back in the day and now you know 100 thieves and all these different groups that have emerged from that and what's really interesting is a lot of them struggled right because they were making they were very very influential you know streamers and Brands getting involved in all these groups are very influential in gaming but they weren't really part of the economy you know they were they were monetary eyes on YouTube or twitch or sponsorships or whatever and to me we just kind of looked at it and said man it seems like it seems like it's time to bring them into the game economies right how do we do that we even saw this stuff I won't name names on it but Call of Duty I know there was a brand partnership at one point um big Big Brand uh IP and they wanted to do kind of these soldiers in Call of Duty and we just couldn't figure out the pricing because they thought that their ipu was worth more than our IP right and to me it started sitting back saying we saw the thought through these problems for a while like man it feels like there's needs to be almost a business development layer right something that creators can tap into the players can tap into that that Esports and all these groups can kind of democratize these game economies and be part of these worlds that people are spending more and

more and more and more time in so that was really kind of the thesis and then when that crypto guys came along you're just kind of like ah this might be the tech for it right now I think that the downside at the time was you know I still you know I still probably to this day there's certain times you'll send an ethereum transaction to somebody you kind of hold your breath for 30 seconds and hope it freaking shows up right so it's still been I still say it's it's still pretty pretty early um even even now I mean people have said this for for years and it still feels pretty early you know I think that's one of the challenges we've thought about too is that you know you talk to groups like Nintendo right and they're such an amazing group to work with but they're kind of like yeah I don't like these private key things Gamers lose their password all the time and and I don't know if they're going to know the significance of if I set this private key down I'm gonna lose Zelda right so there's still a lot of of things I think we have to address I think is getting better but there's still we're still a little ways out you know and I think we're we're you know what I what I think I'm most fascinated about I think why it takes a little bit longer with this this is not a new platform right this is a new paradigm right so it affects

everything and and I think that's the really it's the exciting part it's also you know the scary part a little bit it takes time it takes policy change it takes integration it takes education and it takes a lot of technology behind the scenes to do it well so yeah and you know what else it also takes it takes a lot of shots on goal uh you'll figure it out and that's actually perfect segue we couldn't plan this any better into the next question which is you've got a lot of different things going on obviously you've raised a lot of funding we'll get to that question later on in the episode here but I think one of the most interesting things to me you know as a studio as a developer as a company as a business um you guys are working on mobile with NFL Rivals and the app stores and you know kind of hopefully co-developing some of the uh the policies that are shifting that are improving all the time in my opinion um you've got Blanco's block party epic game store you know totally different form factor arguably borderline game or you know metaverse play or you know like IP play like

there's a lot of interesting things going on there you've got the uh the publisher arrangements and Partnerships that you guys are working on you have your own token you know you have the foundation so you've got a lot of things going on just like I mentioned in the intro and yes it takes a lot of shots on goal I'm very curious to hear you know when you have a paradigm shift like I think both of us agree and a lot of our listeners agree with with web3 um so how do these all fit together what is kind of your strategy as you are taking these shots on goal as you are experimenting as you're trying different things many of these are not they're not cheap right like NFL Rivals you've got the NFL license right I know from experience working with license IPS is difficult um you know Blanco's You're Building IP it's an IP play from scratch that's also really hard to do right and to do both of those at the same time is arguably even harder and then you've got the whole piece around the myth token and the economics around that the tokenomics around that the legal side of that as well so very very curious to hear uh at the risk of creating a very long

question um I'd love to hear how you are thinking about all these different plays how they come together and what's the through line through it all yeah I mean I think that's that's one of the things you have to be very careful in this space especially when we start in 2018 it was like Green Pastures right you just kind of come in from the space and you're just like oh my God there's so much we can do and I think for us we tried to stay very focused you know we've had some you know we kind of one of our core core goals and our kind of principles here at mythical is we call ourselves we one of our things is we are Pathfinders right and I think that's something we try and instill in everything we do here is that man and we talked to the team about this all the time it's like yeah there's not really you know something we can compare it against because it hasn't happened before and I think that's exciting it's scary you know uh it takes a lot of effort to kind of do that so I think we you know we try not to we're not trying not to boil the ocean but we're trying to add a series of tasks that do expand on each other right and and I think that's the key and frankly you know I think we have spent some of that time of building I mean even the blockchain choices we made in 2018 are different than what we're making now so

there's definitely been some learnings and some some I wouldn't say missteps but some brick walls you start to hit a little bit um but I think I think for us we're really trying to keep it fairly focused so for example um we didn't build a platform right away right we've come at this at an angle of almost a studio model to start with right so we started off with Blanco's we've added Nitro a Nitro Nation which is actually going beta today which is exciting it's actually going to go congratulations about a week from now and you'll start seeing that game a lot more we have a game in racing we have a game in sports we have a game uh sandbox Style game right with Blanco's or a party game and and um you know we've the reason we kind of went that direction is we had built a lot of tech we kind of built our own chain Tech but again we did that somewhat out of a necessity you know um to basically blend those App Store relationships and be completely compliant with the app stores and take Fiat money from Gamers that don't understand blockchain necessarily there wasn't a solution out there so we kind of kind of adopted our own frankly same thing with Marketplace Tech I mean there's been a lot of marketplaces out

there but one thing that comes to that we've learned and we've we kind of understood a little bit before is that gamers are not crypto Traders they're they're just not they're not financial traders they're consumers right they think in terms of liquidity they think in terms of fun they don't think in terms of like bids and floors and and you know all the words that you kind of find out in in the crypto space you know when moon is not necessarily a gamer vocabulary right it's really about hey I got five or his cars I want 100 us for them thing and make make that make that happen right so so we've kind of adopted we've kind of built some of this out of necessity but I'd say we really have kind of two main products at the end of the day um and one kind of newer product that we'll be introducing a lot more and we've shared a shown a little bit around the streaming and I'll explain that a little later why we're thinking about that but you know the main two projects we have is we have kind of our own blockchain Tech at the end of the day though it's built on an evm uh Tech stack right so it's basically an evm chain um you know on top of that we've written a couple systems to make it fully fully compliant with Apple and Google with Xbox with PlayStation with things like that so really that's a product we have

the mythical chain and the Mythos chain we're kind of now calling it um and then we have a Marketplace Tech and the marketplace Tech is really really built around Concepts like liquidity and making it very simple for consumers to come in and out and bringing that into the game itself bringing that Marketplace experience into that web 2 kind of feel right so so that's been the main two products we've really focused on behind the scenes um and and then on top of that we yeah we have a couple games now each of these games Blanco's we had a developer that helped us right so we had a group called third third con games out of the UK they were the primary developer blankos uh we have um you know we had it we actually had an intern we have bought a studio that became NFL Rivals so that was an internal Studio small team though eight or nine people amazing team out of Brighton so we acquired that team kind of accu-hire that team to build that and then uh Nitro Nation is actually a second party deal right so it's a group called CM games out of Estonia they have an existing franchise called Nitro Nation they know how to make these racing titles they've made five or six of them at this point so the idea of

trying to recreate everything if we were trying to recreate a racing title with a brand new studio on web3 there's no way we can pull that off so we're trying to be the experts around that web 3 side and we're really finding companies that know what they're doing uh to partner with us um in various Fashions to help get these games out the door so that's one way we've managed that the foundation side and the token side we are pretty late on that we were trying to hold off our RB view is like let's not we didn't want to have a speculative token we never want to have a speculative token we've never marketed this token right we wanted to help get a foundation off the ground that that there was a token attached that anybody that wanted to adopt that token could adopt it and that's how we set out with Mythos foundation so we don't own a token we don't own the foundation we just kind of help to get it off the ground and it has its own special counsel it's 23 companies now around the world that are part of that Foundation there's there's proposals coming in now from third-party independent Studios it's really cool to kind of see that see that take off so we did a lot of work to help kind of get it you know get it out there and get those connections started but it's kind of

taken a life of its own and it's not something we actually we own so uh I had it coming because I asked a big question I got a big answer I love it there's a lot to unpack there so I'm going to start with um you know with the gaming lens um you know the titles obviously got to stand for themselves it's great to build technology and a platform play to enable a lot of experiences in the future but obviously the experiences themselves obviously need to stand on their own two feet and actually be successful products in and of themselves and then that's how the flywheel gets going um so why don't we start with Blanco's because that was your first title I actually didn't know that that you had you had uh another Studio that helped you develop it out of the UK so that's that's news to me um here's what I do know I know it generated a lot of excitement uh you had a million plus pre-registrations before it was even live uh and it's been out for I believe just under a year at least in in full launch probably a bit more than that and and kind of you know with beta and private launch how has it been performing well let's start with two

questions here um question number one what was the goal with Blanco's right um you know as an experienced game developer to me Blanco strike says yes it's it's Party play but it's less game more kind of metaverse right um and and to me feels more like an IP play you can absolutely push back on any of these these characterizations by the way when uh when it comes to it um and then the second piece is how is it performed uh in terms of your expectations uh up until this point and what have you learned as you're then working on different titles and then we'll shift gears onto other other titles yeah Blanco's is obviously has a very special place in our heart because it was it was definitely our champion of first right uh that game you know Jamie Jackson our co-founder really had the concept of this this game he was literally we were kind of talking about blockchain and Marketplace and all that and he's our creative director he's been in the game he was another Studio headed Activision Blizzard and I remember he was in in like my gazebo in the backyard when we first started just sketching something and that basically became Billy Bones and so the idea behind blankets was really we wanted something that was pop culture that we could

really drive into a lot of content I mean to be real honest the game kind of shifted a few times the the reason they're called Blancos is the initial idea was they would only start as blank Silhouettes right and anybody could kind of take that and resell it and basically the idea behind that and the reason we got into vinyl toys is one we're kind of vinyl toy nerds ourselves we love that audience we love the artist Community there um yeah the the the the kid robots and all of these amazing amazing things that have kind of predated that game were really great but the thing we found really interesting about that is the the physical physical figurine you know the actual vinyl toys themselves how that industry started is they started very similar they started with blank Silhouettes right a couple Kid Robot Silhouettes artists would take those blank Silhouettes they would paint them they would build their own community and they would resell them to their Community right we thought what is what a perfect kind of uh analogy to what we want to try and do digitally right so that was kind of the reason behind blank is it did kind of take a life of its own I'd say we we definitely learned a lot

from that game I think we definitely had some challenges between Hardcore gameplay and social and all that and that that's true we struggled a little bit with that I still think we're struggling a little bit with that the other challenge we had with that game is that game was originally going to be made for mobile and uh when you went to Apple and Google in 2018 2019 and they're just like not happening so we're like well crap um why don't we go to PC because then we can kind of call the shots at least and I and yeah we found that we found a nice run with that um we're definitely not done with the Blanco's IP where you're going to see some new stuff from us uh we'll probably announce fairly soon here are some new things there we're definitely wanting to to kind of reinvest behind that IP because that was one of the things you know it's really interesting because that's I've been in the in the industry for a while and it's very hard for East to meet West in any game title we tried it as Skylanders we tried it to Call of Duty taking a western IP and taking it East is nearly impossible we've had a weird thing with Blancos though to where it's kind of globally accepted so we really found some amazing pieces there in fact one of our early board members was the CEO of Sanrio Hello Kitty so so

he knew a lot about the space and he's kind of helped guide us a little bit but he gave us one of the best compliments I think we've had on building a new IPS he said you know you could put blankets up on a shelf next to Kid Robot next to Hello Kitty next to anything else and they already have they they have an aesthetic you can tell which one's a Blanco and that was really cool for us so we love that IP the chat we've had some challenges with that game though so um it's actually monetized quite well um you know I mean the the lifetime value per customer is strong the players that come in and spend money are spending very good value there um I think the challenges have really a couple one is now kind of what I consider built on older Tech on the marketplace and we want to move that to the new Marketplace Tech that we've been building over the last 18 months so we got a little bit of work to move it over to the new system but the biggest challenge for us honestly it has been cost of acquisition uh to really get that game to 30 40 50 million players which is what our goal is um you know we want to we want to get it there we want to get a massive amount of players behind that game because that IP has a life of its own right we've had so

many toy manufacturers reach out about making physical product we've had you know streaming services reach out about TV stuff there's a lot behind that IP but we can't necessarily do that with a million and a half players so we've we've struggled a little bit on the cost acquisition buying players into a PC non-steam PC game even with epic game store support it's been expensive it's been way more that we make per player so we had to kind of retool that a little bit we did pull back the marketing a little bit you know six months ago and we've been really retooling that how do we get that out in a faster and better way and so you'll definitely be seeing more soon but you know it's been our it's been our champion of first right it's been our uh you know it's what we became kind of known for we are in love with all these characters and we want to make sure this beauty of these kind of concepts of web3 is whatever we do with that franchise everybody comes along with the red right everything we we've every Blanco can come along with future endeavors and that's one thing we're really excited about so I think you're gonna see a lot more about Blancos in the future um we're we're we want to kind of keep uh retooling that and make it as stronger and stronger as an IP so yeah I

mean for what it's worth I I love the Blanco's IP um I have personally struggled a little bit with understanding you said you've got the gameplay versus Social Challenges I was kind of hinting at those with the question um and I appreciate you kind of uh owning it and being upfront about it because that that to me is probably the biggest issue I have with it is I love the IP honestly I love VIP it's so recognizable um you can absolutely build all kinds of products on top of that um on the gaming side that's where I've had the hardest time I'm just like I'm not quite sure what to do with this as a as a gamer so I wish you the best of luck building out that IP because really it definitely deserves um and I'm not surprised to hear by the way that it has a life of its own yeah it is definitely one of those pretty iconic uh pieces of Ip that when treated right with the right vehicle so to speak I think that can really live on its own yeah we think the same thing but I think like I said what we ended up with we had an amazing build system in fact the build system The Creation in there was amazing but you know that it was a challenge right we were kind of you know we didn't want to bite off too much we were trying to test a bunch of things

and you know you could use that same build IP to build all types of 3D metaverse type spaces you could use the same thing to build Shooters you could do the same thing to build races when you put them all together it gets hard you know you end up with a lot of different uh conflicting personalities right you have some hardcore shooters that don't want to do races you have races that don't understand how to do a shooter well you know some people that just want to freaking chat in their in their avatars you know with these blankos so yeah we're definitely trying to kind of focus up and and I think that's that's the big lesson there um you know you can't ever set out to build Roblox that's Roblox is a phenomenon you know you can't plan to build Roblox you have to kind of get there right and so I think for us we definitely are going to keep reinvesting IP and we'll we'll get we'll get some pretty awesome stuff out there very soon we have we have a bunch of projects and work so yeah well I wish you the best of luck with that and that's actually a great um I don't know if this was designed this way or or planned this way but NFL Rivals arguably solves the IP Problem by leaning on the NFL right uh yes of course you've got your own characters you've got your own art style of course you do right but um it's

almost in my mind uh you know it's almost the polar opposite of Blanco's where you've gone and you've built your own IP and these very recognizable characters but didn't necessarily have the right vehicle certainly from a gaming side in my perspective to get there whereas with NFL Rivals you've said okay or that's what it looks like from the outside in at least it's like hey we learned a whole bunch from Blanco's it's hard to build your own IP let's take the NFL IP or something similar or something as huge as that and then build a great Mobile gaming experience on top of that that doesn't necessarily stream web3 it doesn't screen blockchain you can play it as a web 2 experience um without getting too hung up on wallets and and the chain and all that kind of stuff all the technology the boring stuff The Gamers don't really care about and shouldn't honestly care about so tell us a little bit more this is a very recent product you launched it earlier this year uh in the first couple of months you've you did a great piece with Dean over gamespeat where you talked about some of the metrics uh love to kind of get an update on some of those uh listeners please go and read the dean Takahashi peace and game speed um on NFL Rivals and how it's been doing

but you got a million installs in just a couple of months you had some really strong sounding metrics uh early on tell us a little bit more about those and how it's holding up um you know over the longer over the longer run yeah so a couple things opened up from Blanco's into into NFL one was that was mobile you know and mobile has a historically has a much cheaper cost of acquisition than PC so we're like okay that's interesting uh we went pretty early at Apple and Google and kind of said hey here's what we want to build and here's what we want to do and and I got you know kind of started started that that path of how do we put that out uh we talked to a lot of the sports leagues to be real honest a couple of them came to us so we went to a couple of them and really kind of found the perfect fit with NFL NFL you know it's predominantly us which is some can be a challenge on a global global audience and to buy users um but it's it's the the Affinity of NFL consumers to that brand is remarkable and it's really fun so we kind of went in there now obviously we're going into a game space that has a pretty dominant um player right I mean Madden's been there for 30 or 35 years I mean love

those guys EA Sports we know a lot of that team um an amazing product but what we wanted to do is we want to do something different right so one of you know the way we kind of viewed the sports Rights was there's kind of three main categories one you have simulation which is you know pretty much dominated by EA and take two and that was rightfully so those are hard games to make they're expensive games to make they're trying to recreate the sport completely down to the Penalty um you know digitally and there's some great I mean the animation systems all the work that goes into those games is immense so we didn't want to play that space like that's that's they're good that's their space let's stay out of that um then you have on the other side you have kind of fantasy and fantasy you know you're so rare has done a great job in fantasy but that's not us you know we wanted that interactivity we wanted to have more agency player agency than fantasy could offer right fantasy is great because you could tap into some you know some simpler mechanics but it doesn't have that interactive piece so our inspiration was well what if we kind of pulled a little from each you know and the idea there was there's been a genre of gaming that I think is frankly

beloved by consumers that we call what we call it arcade arcade team manager is what we're going after but it's kind of that that arcade style right a little bit to where it's like um you know NFL Blitz and NBA Jam and all of these games that have kind of in our past that we're so hooked on we're like let's go after that kind of area and we'll pull you know the player agency for we'll pull the kind of player agency the interactivity um to where you're actually calling plays and you're making moves and you're kicking field goals and all that but let's let's kind of have you can mix up your team you know I can have my fantasy team and I can really put whoever I want on my lineup right and that now can drive into scarcity and we can have real good Concepts around hey I want to build the best team I want to be the general manager to build the best team out there and I'm going to trade and sell and play and all that type of stuff while I'm having to be good at the game so I still have to be able to play the game to kind of fully move forward so that was kind of our idea there the NFL loved it um you know it took us a while to kind of get there and get get you know with with any of these leagues you actually have two contracts and and there's very few

companies that have both so we have both the NFL contract as well as the Players Association contract and you kind of to what we are doing or what EA does you have to have both um and so that took a little while that was that was a challenge but the game's done well and we've been very very proud of it I think the two stats I'm most proud of so far and the game's only been out about 60 days which is great actually a little yeah I think yeah just uh yeah yeah maybe 60 90 days at this point we picked up a million players almost right off the bat um which was great we're sitting you know we're sitting on nice growth we're seeing tens and tens of thousands of players a day coming in which is great um my favorite two stats I think in that game right now one is that we're after you know I think about 38 36 or 38 000 rating or reviews now on the App Store we're sitting at a 4.8 out of five which is you know up there with Matt and it's up there with FIFA and I think that was one thing we had a couple naysayers are like oh you have you know kind of these web3 Concepts behind it you're going to get review bombed you're you're you know you're just it's just not going to work and I think we've been able to blend those two worlds together perfectly to

where you know people people are loving it yeah they're not complaining about sellable economy so that's been a big big moment for us is that we are reviewed right where all of the big titles are right now so that's been a big big thing for us the one I love the most though is I think we're averaging I think on iOS we're averaging nearly two hours of gameplay per player per day and that blows my mind um they are we have people really playing that game and that's on you know that's on average right now you know across all the players in the game so we're very very pumped about that um people are playing the game heavily you know and now I think for us it's always opening up other other opportunities now you know we're going back to Apple you know we're the number one sports game in May we're the number one action game we actually beat out Roblox on on uh in in May in terms of the number one action game um it's gonna allow us now as we go into the actual season we're still in the off season which is great yeah we launched a game during the off season The Game season starts next month or yeah sorry a month and a half from now and uh you know we're gonna be ready for that September 7th so we got some more

functionality coming we got some new features coming and we've now been able to kind of see how do we balance this kind of web 2 and web 3 economy together you know there's some things again we're learning from and we're trying to improve it fast but um it's it's a great start for us we're really really excited and in fact there's some interesting data on there too to where you know if you take a game even like a FIFA right which is massive and you could the other thing we love about NFL is it's the right number of audience right Madden is about 25 million players on Madden mobile you know uh we're closing in on two I think we'll be at 10 this year maybe 12 this year so we're in a really really nice uh growth on that game um but then there's other sports out there FIFA mobile has 850 million installs right so there's definitely other bigger sports leagues but we love the Affinity of NFL and what we can prove out but we're seeing great great numbers I think 15 of all of our revenue is coming from fees from the secondary already and that's still with the marketplace outside of the game imagine what will happen when we can get that Marketplace in the game right so we think that this is going to be a great one I think it's going to break open

some things for the entire web 3 Industry right in terms of how do you get it in the game how does how does Apple and Google kind of kind of uh you know want this to work within their ecosystems which is a very important thing and we've been very fortunate we're just quoted I think a couple weeks ago with Google Play we've kind of helped you know kind of partner with them and help Define how do these new economies work and how do we basically kind of you know open those policies up to do more projects like this yeah we had the uh so rare guys actually on uh episode just a couple of weeks ago maybe a few weeks ago now and you know obviously we'll talk about soccer and football manager is my favorite game um which is soccer management so uh obviously you know football soccer is is the biggest game on the planet and to your point you know FIFA mobile has 850 million versus 25 million for Madden so obviously there's a lot of room for growth there um I think one of the interesting pieces that you're calling out here I have two questions where two follow-on questions before NFL live is one one is more about the web three angle um but first I wanted to just pick on something you mentioned which is you know you've gotten yourself to about 2 million uh installs so far it sounds

like you're happy with the growth of tens of thousands per day new installs coming in that's great expect to get to about 10 million 12 million maybe later on this year that would be awesome what is your so this is a a two-part question what is your UA strategy on this um and then because UA on mobile I agree with you to something else you said earlier is easier than for PC that is true cheaper it is still very expensive these days very saturated especially post uh idfa apocalypse you know with apple and so on and you know we don't need to cover that on this episode but but it is definitely more challenging than it has been in the past and then the second question which is related is how does the web 3 component uh unlock UA differently if if at all I'm open to being you know hearing that actually it doesn't make any difference whatsoever but how does the web 3 component and presumably the higher monetization presumably the higher stickiness engagement levels correct me if I'm wrong here um how does that unlock different channels for UA or different ltvs that

then allow you to be more aggressive yeah no that's great great point so so I think fundamentally the the cost of acquisition is I mean it's almost an order of magnitude different between PC and mobile even even in the post idfa world right we're still you know yeah we're seeing great you know great numbers they've crept up a little bit again off season so it's a little harder to find all that user base uh we're not spending a ton yet on it we're going to be turning the afterburners on um with the season kickoff which is great um but I think a couple things um one you know big games like like an NFL you know hopefully you get some love from Apple and Google over time you know and there's ways to get kind of in front of that audience there are a lot more channels though which is interesting so you know we were seeing honestly we were seeing nearly 40 45 cost acquisition on PC it was that high after you get through the the court right the core web 3 is great to come in they support a lot of it but if you really want to get to millions and millions of players you're looking in that kind of range if you're not on Steam steam helps if you hit the algorithm right steam though without the algorithm you're in the same challenge right so so it's it's more limiting on

what you can do at PC right we're we're spending most of our effort around you know building that Community or or going after YouTube and Facebook and and Twitter and stuff like that mobile has a lot more opportunities to kind of kind of grow that which is great um so we've been testing a lot we're finding you know things like Tick Tock and Reddit and other other channels Apple search ads obviously things like that are great ways to get in if it feels like web2 if it goes to web3 I think you close down that audience so I think it in our case we are marketing the game like a traditional mobile game um where where does that web3 kick in but like I said we're already seeing we're seeing um amazing Arc dials in that game so that game is doing great um it's completely free to play but we're already I'd say we're competing with Madden you know on ARP dials already and we're only seeing enough you know we're RCN 10 you know 12 to 15 let's say of net revenue is coming from the secondary that secondary is outside of the game and we've been working very closely with the first parties of how do we bring that in the game and how do we do it to where we can kind of play nice

with everybody and we're very close so we actually think you know right now that could increase you know we think that art Pals on secondary could actually exceed our thousand primary right so how does that help you well if you if you know as you know from mobile um literally you know a small amount of LTV can be the difference of success or failure in Mobile it's gotten that you know um it's gotten that tight so if we can suddenly have another 50 of Revenue coming from secondary and that secondary it's not even people paying us right it's people paying other people and we just get a little fee off of that for for helping complete that transaction through the through the smart contracts um it makes a big big difference in fact yeah I think you I think you could see um I think what you're going to see is is a lot of is is that data starts coming out more and more and I think as we start getting to games to start hitting 10 15 20 million players I think you're going to see many many many game developers that are like they're almost gonna be a disadvantage right if it's almost like you don't have that extra Revenue stream you know what do you do you know and I think that's going to be really interesting for game developers

over time but um what we're also seeing though is we we see people come back and come back and come back I mean they can start viewing it differently in fact a lot of the players don't realize that they can sell their items you know a lot of them are literally just coming in playing building their team and we're working on things like bidding we're working on things with your in-game marketplace with Apple and Google to where I think when you have players come in and you're like wait a second somebody just offered me money for Patrick Mahomes like what what does that mean right and it's the best way you could onboard somebody into web three is give them Something That Matters to them right like you mean I could I bought this you know a couple months ago for 10 bucks in a pack and now I'm you know now now somebody's offered me a hundred dollars US for it um I'm gonna figure out what that means right so we think that it becomes a really interesting piece of the puzzle we think it becomes a very interesting piece of the monetization strategy which ultimately leads to cost acquisition I think what we're also excited about is it's starting to lead to new gameplay pretty heavily and that makes it fun there's new meta Loops within these games you know Nitro Nation we can talk about in a minute but we actually are working on

some really cool pieces to where it's a gameplay model you couldn't pull off without web3 right and that's when people really start to take notice yeah yeah and I think you know something you said resonates very strong with me I do think that at some point web3 when it done best it's almost invisible but then there's that aha moment not just for developers like ourselves where it's like something clicks like we talked about earlier on um but it clicks for the players too right and it's it's I'm first and foremost I'm having fun I'm playing this game I'm not playing to earn I think that meta has you know lived past its its useful life certainly at this point um but I do think that when somebody realizes like oh okay the effort I put into this game that I enjoy anyway is actually worth something to somebody else who also enjoys this game but happens to be more cash rich but time poorer than I am I think that unlocks something incredibly interesting we're not there yet anywhere near there yet but once we get there that is going to unlock uh much higher ltvs and that is actually to your point gonna be

interesting to see what does that do to overall ltbs in the ecosystem and what does that do to the competitiveness of more air quotes traditional developers who don't necessarily have that unlock they may have very highly monetizing games of course they do because you know presumably that's why they're leading the pack enables do UA at scale but they don't necessarily have that like extra layer of whales in their games that are contributing at levels not seen in traditional web 2. so I think that's a really interesting point I'm not really asking for it's not a question it's more of an observation but that's something that I've been noodling on quite a bit which is once you start to get those web 3 components building into more traditional gameplay that's going to be a very interesting moment for every developer to take note of because it is going to impact ltvs and it's going to impact UA budgets especially as Apple and Google become more and more not lenient I think that's the wrong word but are more accepting of different kinds of game plan different kinds of economies which we're definitely seeing okay

I want to talk about Nitro Nation because uh I think that's again another example of you guys leaning into a different genre you're working it sounds like with a partner out of Estonia who's done a whole bunch of these games knows how to make the game play so you're reducing the risk on that front certainly on the design risk side of things how are you integrating web 3 there how are you working with these third-party developers um yeah tell us more about these these kinds of relationships and how you're going to do more of them yeah so Nitro nation's been another project we've been working on for a while uh we had a group called CM games and uh CM games is an amazing studio they've had they've had like I said a bunch of different a bunch of different titles but a bunch of racing titles so they found a lifelong history in that um you know vladim team are great they got the concept right away and they could kind of they kind of quickly saw okay we see how this could work right so what's great about that we kind of worked with them we've we have kind of a new version called Nitro Nation World Tour it's actually in beta kind of a closed beta today and actually I'll hit some sort hidden availability next week

uh most likely with uh with in the app stores and um what's exciting about that is that um we've done a couple things one we've really worked with them to really up the graphical quality I I don't want to kind of Pat ourselves in the back but I think between our two companies I think we have one of the best looking mobile racing games that has been made right and I'm not throwing shade at anybody but we put a lot of effort into really making these things look gorgeous yeah right so we're excited about that I think we have 200 car models licensed already and we've done something a little different like we've gone into all those car manufacturers um and we've really worked with them to allow us to customize these cars right so the players can come in and it's not just racing it but I own that item I can really come in and customize heavily heavily not only can I physically customize them but I can actually go back and tune them right I can tune the gearbox ratio as I can tune them nitrous oxide tanks I can tune everything so you almost have a couple rolls now in this game right you have like racer you have um you have mechanic you know and and we

think there'll become some interesting social opportunities over time to where maybe one person's not good at all three you know whatever we have another Concept in the game we have a thing called workshops and those are actually on sale now so there there are an nft behind the scenes but workshops become part of the whole social system so if I need to get my car painted I need to get my car upgraded you have to go to a workshop and somebody owns that Workshop right so you can even start banding those workshops together to always create these little mini cities you know you can rent out cars you can lease cars you can paint cars you can customize you can tune them all that type of stuff through the economics that the players are now and you know kind of integral in so we think it's a lot of depth in this game um we think it's going to be a really cool opportunity they said we have hundreds and hundreds of cars licensed now at this point the team's working on you know hundreds more and and not only that we actually have you know one thing we have is we have our own kind of fictitious aftermarket company in the game called doc 75 um a seattle-based car manufacturer or car uh modifier and dock 75 can even add

parts to a lot of these cars now too so well the kind of almost unlimited design space very very strong social mechanics um and the players are you know kind of in on that gameplay they're in on the economy um it's building within this game right they're figuring out how to kind of kind of be part of that so really really pumped we also took a pretty interesting design element the the creative team at Activision they really focused on almost I kind of almost called right NASCAR versus drag racing but like drag racing meets music festivals so you'll see a lot of that pop culture coming through this game at Yogi contents of that take place around these different festivals around the world so again just really really tons of content and an economy that players can pretty much go as deep as they want on both the customization and participation so pumped about where this goes we think this is probably we think the racing genre is is perfect for these Webster economies save same thing with sports so so uh yeah we have a high hopes for this one we think it's going to be amazing um and again we're we're almost out of the door we've been in soft launch in the Philippines and Mexico for a couple

months now um we're opening up to kind of everybody that's bought kind of one of these nfts or one of these Assets in the past is uh can come into the game I think it's later today and then um we'll start having that availability very very soon here so awesome well good luck with the launch um I don't want to think in obviously we'll maybe we can have you back actually um once Nitro Nations is out there yeah I'm curious to hear a little bit about kind of your approach to working with third parties um the uh NFL rival sounds like it was a you know an acquisition almost or an equihara of bringing the team in-house and it was a third party team then became a first party team um you've got a couple of these uh you have another title as well in the works with another uh developer partner I think and maybe even another one you tell me you know this better than I do honestly I'm just going based on Public Information um but what what is the relationship with these third-party developers what do the economics look like as much as you can share would love to hear more about what that means for you and what that means for the the developers as you work together on these projects yeah and

I I think what we've wanted to do is we wanted to either be kind of the developer record um so to speak or working very very tightly with Studios they get it I think that was an important part so we didn't kind of spend too many wheels around well what do you mean this works this way right like we wanted to make sure we were very very tight around that so we kind of divide the world I'd say into and it's not just us the industry I think in general first second and third party titles right first party where the developer we own the IP we're you know we're part of that whole thing right so um you know and generally either we would build it ourselves with a small team or we would actually Outsource almost like a work for higher type project so blankets was actually a work for hire we own that IP um you know we had a great relationship with the studio the studio is actually a former Activision team so we knew that team incredibly incredibly well it wasn't we didn't just go pitch them it's like we've known them for 10 years and so they were basically looking for projects we were wanting to build Blanco's together and it's been it's been a great relationship there uh so that's kind of what you know we own the IP we're building the game with them we did more the economy Tech we did all the

back end obviously we did a lot of the production and then we actually had a team that was actually working on the client um and Nitro Nation you know Vlad and his team are just they're just you know great great studio and they got it right away so we're like okay people they own the IP but we're kind of partnering together we're publishing that game and we're working on a lot of those elements together so so that's been great on that one um yeah we've had other teams that we've just kind of we know we're going to make this game and we find the right team to kind of build that build that out you know I think uh one of the things you know I mean it's it's a it's a good and bad thing in our industry is there is some turnover right Studios go out of business Studios change we actually there was a sports related Studio that recently kind of went out of business we we grabbed a lot of that team too like we're like hey let's come on in come on in let's do something you know did something here so you know I think that's one of the the big advantages of being in the industry so long is it's a pretty small Studio or a pretty small industry at the end of the day you know we all go to the same events we've all worked on different projects before it seems like in some capacities so we try and keep a pretty good eye on who's out

there right now and what that means and and uh yeah I think that's how we get a lot of our deals right now is we we kind of come up with uh here's here's a genre here's a leverage point that we think would help us have an advantage to bring the game out as as a studio model and then let's go find that team that really believes in it understands it and wants to wants to really kind of change the world right I think that's that's the key um you know our Focus eventually is we do want to open up all of our tools as a platform and then be like let other people build on it um we haven't fully done that um partly because we didn't think the Playbook was solid enough you know we felt like if we open up all the apis and people can just come build we are worried that too many people would fail you know on it because it's just there's not a good playbook there's not that build something that looks like this which is how a lot of the industry's done right I want Clash of Clans meets this meets this we think that's the you know we didn't have that Playbook yet but I think we're getting there quickly to where we will be able to open up a lot of the tool set and I think you'll see us get a little bit more on that platform side over time but right now we definitely cherry pick you know we get a lot of proposals we've thrown away a lot of games too I think we've canceled as

many games as we put out so at this point so so um yeah we we uh you know just like any Studio we're we're looking for something we can have some type of Leverage because I think our goal right now is we don't want to put out a game that has less than 10 million player opportunity I think that's kind of our special thank you we think the game can get to 10 million that's great we think at least five years we think of five year longevity is the minimum that we'd want to go after if we can't hit those two Targets we'll kind of toss the game yeah that makes sense uh gotta have a criteria okay uh I know we're low on time so I got a couple more questions I want to do quick quick fire on if that's okay so uh the myth token uh talk to me uh what does the myth Toton do what's the purpose you alluded a little bit at the start of this uh this podcast to uh the fact that it's kind of decentralized and it's not necessarily something you are actively working on yourself but you put it into motion I presume so tell us more about the myth token what does it do what's its purpose yeah so our view on tokens is we don't really necessarily believe in single game tokens that are tradable right like we don't think you think that's interesting you know any supply and demand in the game you know these are not games are not backed by

military they're not backed by oil reserves right they're they're supplying demand so we think that any single game marketable token is is probably not right for us but we do believe in an ecosystem token and we believe our portfolio token let's call it and we definitely leave an ecosystem token and we're already seeing some of that happen we're seeing where if you have a unit of exchange that is built through a Marketplace and you can sell from one game and buy into another game we think that's a very powerful mechanism them and eventually if you can sell from one game from one company and buy into another game in another company that's even more interesting so so that was kind of the partly behind that we also wanted we liked the ideas of a token with governance reasons for security reasons for backing the chain reasons all that type of stuff which is why we helped kind of get the Mythos Foundation off the ground um it was built to be decentralized the separate organization we just wanted to help get it off the ground and get it circulated out there so we do the Mythos token is part of the Mythos Foundation we have adopted that token for our chain for our Marketplace it will be the base unit of currency for everything we do fixed Supply token

um not a lot of bells and whistles never been really been marketed that hasn't been the goal and never did a real public sale or all those icos or any of that we just started using it and we're starting to build a lot of interesting utility against that already awesome awesome uh I think and and just to clarify you are planning that as a kind of a single token for the entire ecosystem you're not thinking of like the whole dual token economy piece that was all the Vogue you know a couple years ago with the governance token and a uh an inflationary token you're not planning individual tokens for or individual game economies that might be interchangeable with each other it's just this is the token at least as of now go ahead yeah I'd say as of now that it'll be the only tradable total like externally Central listed token we we probably will be part of um we are experimenting with localized um kind of wrapped tokens that are only locked within our ecosystem right so you'll never be able to take a Nitro token you might go take a Nitro token exchange with NFL token but you wouldn't like Nitro token would never be listed on an exchange NFL would never be listed on Exchange but it would be backed by

that Mythos token right so you could exchange and Analysis token not traded on their own so so it'll never be its own kind of market cap that you're tracking on on binance right it's just uh but but we do believe that there could be local tokens as long as it's backed by by an ecosystem token that makes total sense I understood okay great uh second quickfire question so obviously you've raised a lot of venture funding um uh by my counts or at least by Public Accounts about 300 million total uh most recently 37 million series C extension uh it is great to be well capitalized I'm sure you will agree with that obviously with a lot of funding come very high expectations for outcomes uh and Venture size outcomes so uh just the obvious question here how are you going to hit those expectations what are your plans for the funding and how are you going to get to that expectation level that I'm sure is is part of these conversations yeah yes that's a great question so you know I think I think you know right now now I think we're mostly known for this kind of kind of a couple games the couple games that are out and uh the chain and the marketplace Tech

um that's that's our primary focus right now um we so that's where we put a lot of funding into that we help you get the foundation off the ground I mean we think there's a lot of great things happening you know a couple things on that too is that you know we've actually been pretty focused on trying to get to a break even or profitable State I think we're we're getting there very quickly which is great you know I'd say either interview or q1 we think we'll be in a break-even position which is awesome and it breaks into position on a very healthy you know we're already we're already doing about you know we're doing about 40 million a month in sales already so we're you know going going 40 million dollars we're going through through the products uh on on a monthly basis which is a great place to be at right now um you know we want to get that net revenue now kind of to the level so we can break even the entire company and that's been a key focus of ours um we actually have another couple products so we've been thinking about we kind of think you know we've been kind of calling it recently um you know we've been focused very much on what we call web3 now we've also been that we have a streaming company we acquired um called the poly stream back at the end of 2021 very very interesting cloud gaming Tech um you very unique only one in the world

that has this we bought that company and I have all those patents I'd say so that it's a very interesting way of how you do cloud gaming we can do it at a fraction of a cost of what stadia or or xcloud or any of the other ones can do so to me we're now kind of calling that web 3D right so it's kind of like you start off with the web three that becomes digital identity assets Marketplace and then you start getting new forms of how you distribute games how do you watch games and if you can start instantly getting into games um with these economies that start moving you through those it starts getting really fascinating and we we just started showing off a demo we haven't publicly officially showed it we showed it at a conference and somebody put it up on Twitter already but basically we have a demo of this Tech we call it the HTTP of the metaverse to where we have a demo to where we can stream two games right and so we're streaming Blanco's which is a unity game and in that suddenly a portal opens almost Dr Strange style and you can actually see an unreal four game running live inside unity and if I walk through that portal you instantly take control of the other game with no no latency at

all so you can literally move from one game engine and one game into another game engine another game so we actually think some really interesting things there and that that'll probably be our next kind of formal product we're very close to getting our first couple clients signed I think you'll probably see a client live in the next you know by the end of the year on this new tech and and for us for us it's the next step right it changes distribution it changes how games can be kind of interacting with other games things like that and then that core route is webbed through behind the scenes so definitely focused a lot on that I think there's even one of the products we'd love to bring out in the next few years I think right now we as mythical we have we have we have easily a five-year road map of where we want to be we have the core team kind of behind it our goals break even on the first product and then products two and three we can start investing in heavier um as we grow but they're all pretty complementary products over time and our goal again we're trying to build Next Generation gaming so that's that's the ultimate goal of what we're trying to do at mythical love it love it and then final question I know we're out of time here so I'll make this really quick um fast forward five years from now um what does success look like for

Mexico for many people for the industry for from ethical whoa both oh yeah mythical mythical to start with yeah I mean and then industry beyond that yeah I mean I I think we're about to see I'm gonna start actually the start of the industry and I'll kind of play our play into that industry so I think the industry is going to go through a massive amount of change over the next 10 years I think it's going to be the most exciting I've been in it for you know over a decade I think the next decade of gaming is going to be really really interesting because I think we're going to see what the definition of what is a game and what is entertainment and interactive entertainment is gonna is gonna really blend and I mean things like we're seeing with AI I think we'll start seeing that the velocity the the rapid you know velocity we've seen on AI over the last you know 18 months I think we're going to see that in gaming as well and we're going to see new worlds um New Creations new ways to interact new ways to be part of that new ways to be entrepreneurial in that I think that Creator economy meets entertainment meets you know gaming will blend in a big way and I think ultimately we can't end up with a 3D internet over time right so so people call it metaverse I

hate the word metaverse is because everybody has a definition for it so I'm going to use the word 3D internet I think we we head to a 3D internet right and that's just going to change a lot of really cool stuff you know how I interact how I move so I think that's where the industry's going I think we're going to see just the the proliferation of AI but I think blockchain is as important to AI too right because it's that it's The Ledger right it says who's what and who owns what and where's the digital supply chain so I think we're going to see a huge huge opportunity around that and I think we'll see the industry grow even faster than what is being predicted out there where does mythical fit in I think we really want to position ourselves as that next Generation Um kind of thinker and provider right and so I think we're thinking about things about what does streaming mean and how do you if you can jump from a live stream if you can jump from watching the game into immediately playing the game because they're both streamed right you start shifting a lot of dynamic around games and if you can suddenly move items down the road right or you're you you can track across and so all the stuff I think comes together very naturally over time whether your

identity your assets your wallet your your ability to move between devices and all that type of stuff becomes um just second second nature and I think we'll see what is entertainment will be redefined a little bit so we want to be that we want to be that provider we want to focus on a lot of that those those core core tools we want to get that out into you know other companies so we can really start seeing these these progressions happen love it love the vision I know we're over time here so I just want to respect that and uh kind of wrap this up here so I just want to say a huge thank you John uh for coming on the Pod uh it has been incredible to hear about your vision for mythical uh it has also been a real pleasure chatting with you your energy is uh infectious and so welcome back any time I would love to hear how things are going with Nitro Nations and uh the token and anything else that you guys have going on so welcome back anytime awesome thank you for having me it was such a pleasure yeah and a big thank you of course as always to all of our listeners we'll be back next week with more interviews more insights and more analysis from the weird and wonderful world of web3 and gaming more broadly so until next time

friends stay crypto curious and feel free to send questions guest recommendations and comments to me my email is Nico navic dot Co and you can always find me on Twitter or I believe it's X these days uh at nicothefin DMS are always open if you enjoyed today's episode whether on YouTube or your favorite podcast app make sure to like subscribe comment or give a five star review and if you want to reach out or provide feedback shoot us a note at podcast navic dot Co or find us on Twitter and Linkedin plus if you want to learn more about what novik has to offer make sure to check out our website www.navic.com there you can sign up for the number one games industry newsletter navic digest or contact us to learn about our wide-ranging Consulting and advisory Services again that is www.navic.com thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode