Games industry keeps getting worse with Damien Evans | 346

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Devon chain the no one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I'm your host Brandon fam and with me a returning guest Daman Evans how you doing Daman I'm doing good how you doing Brandon all right for a little background this is your second time because the first time I I I messed up but uh always a pleasure to kind of talk to you if you don't mind uh to kind of this is the part where my guest our guests introduce themselves to the listeners out there which is you uh a little bit about yourself where you are where you've been where you heading yeah so I'm Damian um actually this is my third time back because remember the very first time was when

Larry was still doing this too and soly yeah I was talking to you too about that um so yeah so um I'm currently a senior environment artist slash was the or is or whatever the Outsource manager as well at Cold iron um I've been there since November and previously I was at sonyy dog and I was there for about 7 and a half years or so until I was um UNG gloriously hit with the hatchet of layoffs back in November and um I fortunately was able to get the current job that I have um at Cold iron um shortly thereafter because uh we were pretty much a lot of us aware or feeling the pinch of um what we're doing or what the lack thereof we're not doing um was unsustainable and I highly highly highly

praise Sony and naughty dog for sticking it out and and doing everything that they could to try to keep people for as long as they did because um there was a large layoff for us in November and I remember thinking back to that July before going huh this this doesn't make sense with what's going on and we lasted from July until November with trying to do what we could for work everybody was trying to scramble and say okay well we could do this we could do that let's put them here let's put them there and um I just I'm I'm thankful that they were even able to do that because from a business standpoint um it didn't make sense to keep everybody like they did for as long as they did but I think that it was a situation where it was

the beginning of all of this real real real bloodbath of stuff that was going on we had already been obviously in it for about eight months or so before that and it was just this kind of slow burn and then right around before the first um or the end of the year is when we all thought it was going to you know be the end of it all and and if and if everybody makes it till um December January or January February it was probably pretty good yeah and then it just it's just kept going and going and going and um it's just one of those things where um I started interviewing because like I said I I just I'm like you know what I need to figure out something um because this doesn't seem sustainable and um that's whenever it was like all the work just started going away for everybody yeah um projects were being cancelled um there was just not enough funding um whatever that for whatever reasons um

looking back and still to this day as to why um you know everybody has their their speculations and and their reasons and and this is why and then this is why and then there's the you know the the conspiracy you know theories about you know what's been going on with our industry and this and that so um unfortunately yeah I was I was hit with that with a bunch of my other co-workers and friends and as we were talking about before um it just it it just continues to have been getting worse after the first of the year and we like I said we all thought that if people made it till um you know at least February even March that things would be good and here we are in May and as we all woke up to this morning um three four Studios Arcane being one of them and and having you know some friends there um completely shutting their doors so

it just seems par for the course these days it's just like I was talking about before it's almost a a no longer oh my god did you hear it's a oh again oh another and and it's just leading to um lack of jobs in in companies unfortunately and as we were talking about too previously there's still people that we know and other people out there that have been out for going on five six months now if not more and um and not trash quality people and um and it's just a really really odd and in infuriating and in or infuriating and and just crap time right now and um yeah it doesn't seem like anybody's been safe you know this is something that with this industry that you know I've been in it since uh9 six

and um you know I've been an artist in it since uh 2008 and with the exception of 2008 whenever 2009 whenever the housing market and the economy just tanked and and there was a big um dip in in jobs and stuff then and a and a reevaluation and everything of companies that was going on that was that was a drop in the bucket compared to what's been going on now and um I I I don't know uh you know there's there's like I said reasons that people have have written endlessly about um and it being the economy it being the these corporate investor Raider types that are you know the the um the Whatchamacallit the what's the company that's um been doing all of this that's fell through on A2 billion Saudi loan um embracer group embracer group that that comes in and

just devastates these companies buys them out and then almost like corporate rating you know what happened was going on in the 80s and 90s and stuff where they would just come in buy everything up and then just lay waste to everything and and and make their profit or try to make their profit and then there's the making it look good to investors the whole cycle new again and re we got to rehire then we got to fire then we got to and it's just this cycle and and you know is it part of that is it the wars that are going on is it the global economy like it it's just it seems like all these things that it's just a a perfect storm of whatnot of everything you know kind of lumped in together that unfortunately right now um everybody's suffering from and even though I have a job currently um when I hear about my friends and other people in layoffs happening still I get tremendous anxiety from that because I'm just like I know that that in an instant it can happen to

me you know the company that I'm at um you know God forbid anything does happen but there is as we've seen no Rhyme or Reason and at any moment it could just happen sorry for whatever reason um the studio is closing or we're laying off half of you guys or whatever it is and I've been part of of all different types of layoffs and so I just I I kind of you know I I know that that it's not you know always the best case scenario and so I try to be as optimistic as I can about it all but having been through a lot of the the experiences that I have thus far um it's hard for me not to to see that that it's just you know fine you know because obviously we know it's not but it's obviously you know I try to keep that balance of like okay I am working and I'm fortunate right now

um but I also know that at any moment bam it can just and it's happened before so yeah it's a horrific time and on many fronts it's like it's so relatable what everyone's going through uh it is kind of like this lingering it feels like we're the end of it right but you know with news where like today where Microsoft is kind of leading charges on leading the charge on all these kind of layoffs lately um it it feels like a reset again and you know we're kind of hoping by the end of subber now that things will kind of but who knows you know maybe these companies have another plan and there's only so much damage I think developers can take uh like you said I I think what doesn't get talked about enough is even with people that have uh quote unquote job uh stable jobs right now there is like this element of anxiety

uh because it's not just so much that um the person being directly affected uh you know there's got to be some residual uh kind of uh uh trickle down effect uh to to us somehow right I mean um we're we're seeing it uh pretty much everywhere like these projects dry up investors are a little bit more uh has hant to to to kind of go invest in Industry right now right they're kind of just waiting it's like just shutting the books until 2025 and MH you know and that that there there are games that people are trying to get off the ground uh that are promising but essentially being told like we got to wait it's like not a lot of people can have can afford that right to wait and and see uh for for the remainder of the year like the your story is is super enlightening because you know I think

the last time we talked shortly before the year or actually it was after the year a bit right um You were anticipating that you were feeling this and that's the thing that most people are kind of feeling right now but you know it's kind of like uh almost unavoidable to to an extent because now the competitive level in the job market is unprecedented you're I've never seen so much uh highlevel seniors and leads directors even yeah that are just waiting uh and uh I don't know how exactly that's going to work with um it still will take some time like even if the industry wakes up tomorrow and and say all right we're ready to on on on board it takes months from then to kind of even welcome the type of talent that out there uh to to

kind of balance again uh as a whole to to to to to be uh stable enough to kind of take in that many people at one time right just the the the idea of managing and introducing people into the culture of a company it takes a lot of onboarding and patience and you can't do 10 out of time and at this point it feels like you get you know to equalize the amount of damage that's been done you got to like on board 30 person a day even right to to kind of make sense out of that um it's uh it's it's I don't know like I thought like you said March will be the beginning of the turn now it's almost June right I thought all right for sure by June but it feels like Microsoft has uh I mean they just went through recent acquisition so um in the past acquisition i s is not

something to be uh it's always something to be cautious of right because there's always redundancies right yeah there's obviously Fallout that happens from that and it's usually more of a of a negative thing um for the existing people yeah um but it also does potentially open up for new people but it's still once again the old people there you know are definitely going to be in fear of what's going to happen you know who to say am I redundant or not you know or am I no longer needed or is this position or where where is it even going you know and so it it's one of these things where um you know and the other thing too that that happened that is extremely frustrating was um when blizzard laid people off yeah and right before they laid those people off they had a mandatory everybody in the office so I had friends that that worked with

other people there that had to move from other places closer to the office obviously to be able to work and then a month at time maybe two months for some um they were given the shaft and it's one of these things where some of a lot of these companies now are starting to switch their their mindsets again of no no no we want everybody back in the office you know we want the old way and it seems like there's there's there's that hole going again because during the pandemic for three or four years it was an employees Market yeah it was us being able to um command higher salaries uh being able to say I want to work from home I'm going to move to a cheaper location or somewhere else that I can enjoy that work life balance and all the employers were like okay okay okay the majority of them at that time and it was like awesome this is something knew this is this is how it should be you know

this is great and we're proving that we can do all this from home it wasn't a oh my God everything's on fire this stuff is is not going to work it was holy crap this stuff works this is awesome and now it's this weird mentality of because it seems like real estate developers are pushing um some of these CEOs and some of these other investors to push to get people back in their buildings because if there's nobody in there to to pay for them then they're going to be losing money and they don't want that so it's the same thing happens or seems to be happening with politicians type of thing too Joe Biden's before of you know we need people back in the office and it's just seems like it's this this lobbyist mentality that was happening or is currently happening where um these Real Estate Investors and Moguls and everybody else that own these properties need them filled because because if they're not they lose out on all this

money and if new buildings aren't being built then there's no money for them or as much money to be made for them and so it now it seems like the employers or the corporate heads or whoever are pushing back to say Hey you employees you guys work for us shut the f up and you're G to do what we say and look there's not a whole lot of jobs out here right now and there's not a whole lot of stuff you can do about it so take what we're going to give you or be thankful again and it's almost like the the balance of that power has been smashed onto the employee again that's just how it feels to me so no no I I think you're you're completely correct it's definitely an employer Market it's very slim pickings um because of the conditions and the headlines that we're face every day it's very hard to like there's really no room to negotiate you know you can't really go

in there with uh resume everyone has a resume like literally everyone is going for that job right now and I've I've seen some ridiculous things too like I I've seen like a few C cases now that I'm pretty sure you saw it it kind of went maybe viral definitely on Twitter I don't know on LinkedIn but it was just an animator getting a rejection letter saying that hey actually we we got someone and they're uh working pro bono you know just for you know like just like a modding uh like a professional but like for a modding uh Community or type of thing hey we're just doing this for the love of it right like it's making I mean if people are willing to like basically work for free just to have a title right we've gotten to that state what chance do people have to really kind of apply I I don't think it's going to Trend I mean obviously people are not going to starve just to work on your

game um but there are it's kind of showcasing at Le you know at the bottom uh what people are willing to do now that yeah you know maybe a couple years ago seemed ridiculous uh it still seems ridiculous but uh this this kind of shows at least the overall perspective of what willing what people are willing to do I mean I would love to kind of hear like just maybe General consensus of what you're seeing uh maybe you know certain people you can leave them nameless but like what is it like right now for for these uh probably mutual friends that are out there for like the last 68 months I mean what kind of things are they considering changing careers what are you hearing out there that that's what I'm wondering too and I have I have more than a few friends that you know the the the ideas that they share are different some are more senior

some are more newer into the industry that that before they were laid off that was maybe their first or second job some people that were laid off like myself part for the course here we go again you know it just sucks because this this type of Market is something that we've never seen before um and so there is that that fear and that oh crap um but it's almost too like what are you where are we going to go you know are are we going to to look into film oh that's just as volatile if not more are we going to go look somewhere else in the tech industry and the tech sector oh they're suffering just as much as the gaming industry if not more and so it's I don't know like it that's what panics me is to think especially as I get older am I going to get you know aged out am I going to you know what's going to happen whenever I get into my

mid to late 50s early 60s like and I'm not management by then because I don't have a huge desire to be in management maybe one day that'll change I don't know but it seems that um the people that I do know from before um are currently living off of their Severance um and but not everybody gets that depending on what company you were at you know um I know that my last company was Sony and naughty dog was the first time in my career that I had ever gotten a severance of any type other than here's your last pay check or here's your vacation hours paid out it was a severance plus my vacation hours paid out um and it was something that I'd never seen and so I was extremely grateful and fortunate for that um and so I know a lot of people are living on that but it's five six months deep now and you know depending on on significant others or

how much did they even have saved even before that and so it's it's something that is that is truly terrifying like I said to me I'm I'm in a fortunate situation where I am working but I'm thinking all the time I'm trying to make sure that I save and and even whenever I you know I'm trying to enjoy stuff while when I can yeah but I'm also still thinking in the back of my head this can just all the sudden stop and then I have to worry about like oh I can't you know I'm not I shouldn't go out to eat tonight you know I I my kids and I shouldn't go and and get fast food or or get this or or whatever it is um because it's just always in the back of my head of like this could be your reality and so I'm I'm trying to make sure that that you know I'm not being ridiculous with certain thing or most things you know I I I I do collect shoes and so I I spend you know money on that

but um I you know I try to stay in a lane and I'm trying to keep my money and save it and this and that because it's so volatile like I said you just you just never know and so um some people that um I I talked to obviously previously too were talking about how they were able to save a little bit you know because um they you know a lot of us that have been through this um you just you just don't know but usually if something like this has happened you know or company usually it was when we shipped a project it was like oh crap oh crap are we going to get another one do we have another one oh crap oh crap and that's what you had to worry about and now it's just like and that was for even something that that may not even have been there now it's like some of these companies have pretty quality projects on the books and they're just getting cut you know they're just getting shut down and it's just like holy crap some games have been in development for a

year two years three years whoever the investors are or the heads of these places are just going nope let's just get rid of those because they don't look like they're going to make us enough money and it's like once again what is enough money you know what is it comes to the to this mentality of um how is it that these companies can can lay off their employees and not take pay cuts how is it that their first initial anything in the in in the midst of any sort of trouble a game isn't selling as well as they thought it should have or somebody overprojected or they set their standards way too high where they needed to make um 800 million and they only made 500 million and that's a failure to them yeah and so it where is this mentality coming from and also two um what's happened with our development

costs like holy crap you know I I've worked on some titles where the the leaked budgets were over $200 million yeah and it's just like wow you know and we're starting to see at least um some Rumblings and things of the AAA sector you know not being what it needs to be or should be and this and that and and these Indies are are going to start taking over and and I understand you know that mentality and and that aspect is is scary too there's always going to be aaa's but once again everything's it seems to be at least from from listening to you know LinkedIn and and and all these other um channels for our industry is like you know what's what's even going on you know is and and and then you just add on top of that um once again the the instability of the economy worldwide of America's

stuff of that we have going on here and you know two of the wars that are going on right now and where you know where we're funding this stuff too and it's just like what's going on with us and so our industry is is it caught up and is it a part of all of that are all the the economies you'd like to believe yes of course it makes sense but there doesn't seem to be any definitive answers it's just like I was stating before it's a little bit of this it's a little bit of that and it's this and it's that and then we bring up too and I've always been uh a firm supporter of it of we need some sort of of of Union yeah we need to get together and you see Sega and the testers that got together and they have a union and and the VFX um groups of theyve they've had a a union you know so it's like I think and as as you see everywhere people writing about stuff is this seems to be a wakeup call or a call to Arms of we need this and

and I've had some friends who before have said no we don't need unions it's a waste it's this and it's that and then you know we've had discussions about it and and they've said well what's your opinion on it and and where do you stand and I tell them and I'm like look it's not a matter of like um you know good or bad it's a matter of at least having a a leg to stand on when both of our legs have been cut out from underneath us yeah and I'm 100% willing to give more when I'm able to when I'm working if that means that other people who aren't can benefit from it because you know what I've been a beneficiary of needing those benefits numerous times whether that's federal unemployment or whether that would be some sort of of financial help from a union or some other types of of things that we as as artists and game

devs and stuff put our money into that you know what it's like Insurance yeah you may not need it but when you do holy [ __ ] it's going to make a tremendous difference yeah and so the benefits to me far outweigh the negative are there going to be negative aspects of it and and and Shameless and Ruthless People behind certain things big time it's human nature unfortunately you find it in all aspects you find it in the church with God you find it in in big big business and industry you find it in government you find it everywhere and there are going to be [ __ ] that infiltrate that want to benefit and and try to manipulate and and ring out whatever they can from other people because they're just shitty in of themselves yeah but I like to believe that there's a lot more of us that are good natured and that are positive wanting these things to come forward in a good way to help and benefit the many

and so I feel like to be able to try to to get at least that established um is going to be something that benefits all of us and you know it's the same thing with like a universal type of healthare in America where it's been fought against for some of those that didn't want it because I don't want to give my tax money to people that don't work and who are wasting their money and they should be out there working and it's like you know what and then I've heard those same people two three four years later 10 years later go holy crap I never thought it would happen to me yeah and we're starting to see it way more often than not as you were stating before with with our industry with with Studio heads with lead artists with directors people who before 10 15 20 years ago would have never been touched with layoffs or anything else they were always the the golden gooses in the people standing now it's like here's

just your grenade and wherever it lands see you later and so it if that doesn't give cause for people to go oh [ __ ] nobody's safe that now let us do everything we can to at least try to to make an even playing field and being able to to negotiate certain things when needed to be able to have a general idea of where everything stands instead of people getting fully taken advantage of trying to eliminate that as much as possible to me makes the most sense and as I've said I've been in this industry since 96 and an artist for the last 133 plus years and I don't see it getting any better with way thing the way things have been going um it's it's we start to make more money and then all of a sudden in inflation and everything else around us

catches up and surpasses where we were I remember whenever I was like man if I just make 80,000 $70,000 a year I'm set then I started making that now it's like oh my God I'm still struggling here and then it was like okay when I make over a 100 Grand a year I'm gonna be set I make over a 100 Grand a year and holy crap I feel like I'm making 60 Grand a year like everything just keeps hopping and hopping past where we where things were at one point and that's with inflation and everything else obviously but it just it seems like with the state of everything in general how can it hurt us to try to come together and say hey you know what I'm here to try to help all of these other people that need it when they need it what's wrong with that um then we work on the things that don't work it's just like with

democracy it's a great idea it it it can benefit and it can can run really well and obviously it seems to be one of the best things throughout um human history that has actually worked and are there downfalls of it are there negatives of it of course are there people that are saying F this burn it down yes but in general it seems to be the most economical type of of situation that we have and I feel that that this this industry can at least benefit however much 1% 5% 100% from having some sort of Union that's been my stance um I've heard other people's stances on it that were against it and some fortunately after talking to them about it changed their tune and said sign me up because like I said how

can you be against something that is potentially so beneficial yeah so you don't so you get a little bit more taken at yeah you know what it sucks to already have to pay taxes that's a that's a whole another issue to get into that that is just a a what the f but I'm totally willing to get 20 30 40 bucks less per paycheck to put into some sort of pot or or whatever else for other people that when they need it some people might call me a bleeding heart for that and or whatever they want to say you know blah blah blah but what's the what's the harm in that you know what when I'm doing good and I'm able to benefit I want other people who are maybe struggling who are out of work for six months eight months a year who are thinking about jumping ship to go have to do something else to support their family or themselves um what is does it cost me in the end when I'm fortunate nothing yeah but the

benefits to somebody who tremendously needs it it's a matter of Night and Day for them and so because I also know that that I've been there and we're all going to be there if we haven't already and that's one of the things I tell my students too is is always be ready you know I I I try to also ingrain in them make sure you're saving make sure you put stuff aside your game fund because you never know what's going to happen when when when we first start out in this industry we all think everything is going to be great you know we're we're working for a gaming company we're working for these corporations like what what's the worst that can happen and then as people two three four years into this this machine start to realize why the burnout is on average three to five years in this industry and so I I I try to you know to inform and and and give as many stories and situations and and let them judge for themselves um what they kind of need

to expect before you know putting both of their feet into this this this realm um of gaming because uh a lot of these schools um almost every school that I that I've taught at um aren't obviously fully preparing in that way you know because it is a little bit of Doom and Gloom and it's not all like you can do it you can get a job and and things are going to be great um but right now you know my last classes that I had students were terrified too yeah you know like they're going up against other people that have been doing it for a year two or three years or are they even going to want to hire a junior artist you know type of thing or or is this new mentality gonna change back to let's just get the cheapest people you know so I don't know yeah it's it's h you hit a bunch of points that that that needs further discussion like this idea like your last Point were like this

Mentor menty mentality like that infrastructure like before all these layoffs were happening uh even with remote like it kind of like everything like there's a con and benefit to everything and remote I saw there was definitely a de emphasis on uh on uh on on on accompanying an experienced developer with a junior developer like it you know during the co years it just felt like we need to get things done and we'll have meetings just to kind of discuss the essentials and everyone go back to what they do in their own corner and I'll see you when I see you that doesn't work for someone that's new right I remember and you probably remember when our first year in the industry it was a basically shadowing uh you know our seniors to kind of get the the ropes and there was a good dedicated couple of months uh of onboarding just

understanding like the things that they don't teach you in school like perforce and working with others setting up meetings what you do in meetings how do you kind of function in in a team environment you know uh that was definitely took a hit and now it's been I feel even more deprioritized with all these goliaths these com like highlevel competitive positions uh by people like you and I like like what chance do students really have at this point uh to even have an opinion to even have a say to even have a time of day to to kind of spend so like the even if the industry bounces back somehow tomorrow right or next quarter or end of summer or whatever right that group of that age essentially the you know the early 20s they are at the back of that

line and um there are going to be long-term ramification of essentially a generation of g game developers that are forgotten in my opinion because when things do resume we're going to immediately look at this kids coming out of gnen right away right well there's like four or five years of students that were that will get lost in the shuffle uh that was on standby but they're now they're not as relevant or they have to move on they have to get other jobs uh in other Industries uh like I'm sure students that we used to go to school with you know after 6 months of not hitting they have to switch you know yeah I had a lot of those students that whenever I was teaching that um unfortunately just weren't able to get jobs and um I look at their profiles on LinkedIn and the majority of them aren't

even working in the gaming industry you know they're doing some other random jobs or industry not using gaming at all you know so yeah yeah that that's always going to be a persistent thing just students out of college I think the statistics back then when we were going uh over 15 18 years ago was just you you're talking about 10% of your your class that actually will will get something it's just that competitive back then yeah way less now I mean it's always going to be that way but now in this type of job market it's like dude like even crazier your point on unionization I mean I think even on this podcast the first time we were talking about unionization uh was years ago and we had Emma Kema on and maybe I should have her back to be honest uh but like you know we it was it was a Hot Topic then right there was arguments on both sides um pretty strong compelling arguments

but at the same time there was like this this uh uh fear right this underlying fear of job security uh for for both reasons like well is it going to jeopardize my current job to do do it you know uh to to join a union or is it going to enhance the the possibility to so that uh when I do lose my job it's going to save I love your idea I like it totally makes sense to um the I think the biggest problem that's happening right now and we probably you probably heard this right the biggest thing that Studios companies are taking advantage of I mean there are obviously uh realities that um you know companies can't sustain if there's no business or income they just can't keep the doors open and a lot of companies are trying their best to kind of hang on to that to kind of wait this out but but there are a lot of other companies that are kind of using this as

a way to clean the books you know to reset uh to and that's always been a trend you know anytime there's been Mass layoffs happening you start to see other companies that are restructuring yeah and they pile on so they don't get that bad PR and they could easily just sweep everything under the rug and just be like oops you know and then they don't get the scrutiny of what the hell is going on over here it's just they they they kind of become that sucker fish on the back of the the sharks or the whales or whatever and then they just kind of do what they need to do and then they break away again and you know business as usual after that so that's 100% what's happening right now um I mean because you know a week later I was talking this with Rey they would announced they had record breaking profits right and that's the most upsetting thing yeah frustrating our industry yes there's inflation but our industry is has been growing growing there's more players than ever um

there's like incredible games right and we just talk about this recently off with Arcane Yes red fall didn't hit right but that's one game out of their whole portfolio they have a lot of 15 years plus of a history yeah and they can't survive one game right and it's it's it's it's a corporation's responsibility to kind of be able to prepare for that you know uh and and be able to kind of alleviate a failure like that and um to to close that down and even the other Studio that that made Hi-Fi Rush which is an amazing platformer game looks incredible like top-of-the-line stuff e evil within you know as well right like these are Mega hits and it's it's disheartening because there is no uh defense line

right now right these these companies and corporations are doing this because they can because there's no percussion for laying off a thousand people at once all right um and uh because of that you know I think all we're kind of asking is like we need something to at least give hesitation all right to give at least a warning to to give at least uh an ability to to fight back a bit you know and right now the developers are definitely uh defenseless have no ass armor as as our teacher used to say yeah um uh shout out to alen em em yeah but like right now the that's the problem and I hope the tide has changed but I still see that effect yet like I like there's thousands and thousands yeah

there's thousands and thousands of people being laid off there's I see more people posting about hey you know I'm on my last legs I'm on my last month you know I don't know what I'm going to do need help like I wonder what would be the final push for us to finally stand together and and do something right I guess we're all kind of waiting for that one person to stand up kind of Le charge yeah but what is it how it we're so disorganized yeah but if I knew I would I would do what I could I don't know what to do though well the crazy thing is the voice actors within a month of like uh uh being uh offended they they were able it was a huge it was a huge news uh header right remember that and like it was like maybe couple years ago where uh it was even before AI right it was just like

hey voice actor rights you know uh this and that and I remember game deps kind of piling on to that like hating on them we yeah it's been it's been our struggle the whole time and we saw we basically see someone do it better than us and instead of like learning from that right um just go back to business as usual exactly and now we're in this situation and we still don't know what to do with it and the AR Guild you know said something uh that really caught my attention and they basically said hey we're all for you guys doing this as well you know we're not trying to like take yours or or like you know cut in line or anything that's not our intention it's just that we're trying to like get to this point that uh we have rights you know as a as a worker uh in the game industry and I I was I I was actually the first time I was really disappointed pointed the kind of uh response that these people were giving

and just hating on basically these Outsiders quote unquote we not really right doing it better than we can ever do it right and now we're kind of sitting on Linked In refreshing being jealous and learn nothing from that um and uh we're we're the opposite of the music industry when it comes to banding together and and and and protecting ourselves and uh yeah I I don't know I don't know what the answer is like if this doesn't do anything and I feel like most people are kind of waiting nothing will and that will give more ammunition for for for the next time to be even crazier um because what is stopping them like hey remember that year and a half where we laid off basically 90% of people and nothing happened you know how awesome is that we made $300 million back and what's sad is this is a sad

part right I'm hearing like I'm sure you hear this and I say I'm not ashamed of saying it you have friends at Epic that went through this recent layoff right and I'm hearing them getting hired back at half their salary and people have to accept it and it's sad it sucks but they knew that that would happen you know but that's what it seems like it's this this obviously it's it's not exactly like that but it seems like it it's a like I was saying the employer is going hey you guys are the workers here yeah you need to shut the f up yeah you know you guys need to know your place and guess what we're g to show you where that place is yeah and and that's just kind of what it feels like right now yeah and it it it to some might say no no no it's because of all these other things but it it is it does still feel that there is a that

balance of Shifting of power where it was an employees market for those three or so years where we were able to command and and and do what was just at least for the most part for almost the first time in in history it seemed of our industry and then it seemed like oh you guys are getting a little too big for your britches let's make sure and and I know it probably it obviously goes way beyond that but it just seems like there's a little bit of that element where once again as employers jump on this bandwagon of layoffs that it's just like now we can really make the employees realize where they stand again under our boot listening to what we have to do and say at any given moment and that's it you know we were fortunately able it seems like Anyway a small victory um so far in the past couple companies that I've worked for since it was an issue with um the overtime stuff and the that whole thing is that it

seems to be a lot of companies now are at least recognizing at least in my experience some people could be at companies right now when they listen to this and go what the [ __ ] my company's not doing that they're doing the complete opposite you know of making us do overtime and and and put in all these hours and all this other stuff but I fortunately in these past four or five years have seen at least a shift in that mindset where it's like especially the company that I'm at now cold iron they're very much our producer very much don't worry about this other stuff if you've got to heal or rest or family priorities and stuff like that it's like that's that that's the the the priority and it it's good to to be a part of that and see that those are the good aspects of things but um with with all this other stuff it seems like a lot of the employers are like no you guys don't get to have a say in this you know this is how it's going to

be and like you said if they're G to somebody's making $200,000 a year they're looking for a job for three four five six months or more then that employer comes back around and says oh we need you again we'll rehire you but we'll do it at $110,000 take it or leave it yeah and you know yeah some people would be like f them don't do it but it's like hey I still have my bills and I still have my kids and other things that I've got to take care of and I got to wake out at least yeah yeah and at least this amount of money that I'm being cut cut in half at least it's better than no money you know and so yeah that that's that's the reality I mean you're looking out there in the landscape uh you know LinkedIn I have to take a break sometimes because it's so sad it gets saddening yes yeah and uh yeah there's just super slim picking and uh it is a storm that we going through and everybody gets it right and I think it

is a lot what you said there's definitely seems to be like this statement being made um by by companies of like you know here it is you know um I I do feel during covid I was afraid and I I I'm listeners can can you know it's recorded right I've had so many conversations with guests at that point like I am scared how heavily it's leaning with employees right now like it's ridiculously too heavy-handed uh on that side because you know the pendulum just swings just as hard the other way and even the saying that back then I do feel right now it's like super exaggerated right now it's like nah man this is too much uh you know record-breaking year like how many times do does Can Microsoft do this this I mean this is their second or third time doing this uh to their companies

and uh that you know there there are just things when you do this that you can't rehire people back we're going to lose a lot of people to other Industries we're going to either people retiring early best case scenario if they have that choice or just alog together you know never coming back uh and uh and and the the effects of the new generation of developers are are that's a g that's gone man we're talking about 3 four years of new developers yeah gone from just like this last year and a half uh so the potential of those those kids will never be realized and and we'll never know we'll never know how how what great games we missed out on just because of this uh temporary quarter quarterly profit mentality um it sucks like I I I think there's

definitely uh whatever we can do you know I think on my part I definitely going to revisit this unionization which felt like it was gaining traction a few years ago seemed like it yeah what happened I don't know man just fizzled out hard I guess happened I guess it was like shortly before Co like yeah I remember GDC was like the most it was the most talked about thing for the first time ever in GDC history um uh I I think there's a lot more empathy now than ever before but um not not spoken about as much um especially now like I look in LinkedIn and I think that hear people bringing it up though this is the time people are bringing it up but I think because the the strangle hold of what the companies are doing right now is so fearmongering right that people

don't want to be so outspoken because you may come off as like you know a troublemaker I'll just hire the next guy it's such a shitty position to be put in right now it's like well you know you're just telling me to be quiet and starve until you you call me it's like what is going yeah it's doesn't work that way you know yeah it's a tough situation to be in and and like I said it it seems like it is one of those things like you said a strangle hold being put on things because it's Al it's also the same thing about how a lot of times companies and stuff don't want their employees talking to each other about salaries I've always been transparent with that I've always because nobody can blame me my co-workers they if they get pissed and jealous or they get upset yeah that's not on me yeah that's that's on whoever or whatever else and I also you know

tell my students too that you know there's negotiation and never expect to make the the as much money staying at one company for five or 10 years as opposed to going two or three companies in those five or 10 years because that's not how our industry works that's not how business works yeah and so it just seems like it's this this mindset of like um almost the same thing that happens on social media where you get people that aren't true commenting and and [ __ ] stirrers and people that are paid to do these other things and so to kind of keep the the general consensus or the status quo happening to where um the fear mongering like you were saying happens where as soon as hey get unionization all of the sudden these corporate heads release the hounds of whatever it is to start putting the fear of whatever into the employee that would potentially be doing this to make it to

where oh yeah well yeah I don't think it's such a good idea and then it starts to get the the the word spreading of yeah it's not a good idea yeah it's not a good idea then it becomes the norm in just people's heads like we do you know we're not reading the full stories we're reading the headlines of things you know the sensationalization of things and so the this these things get spread out there of of or how bad unions are or can be and so the fear is like oh crap I don't want to be a part of that and then it gets squashed you know it's almost like this Uprising is going to happen yeah and then there's the inside moles that that strike that know where to hit crush it and so before it even begins it's already destroyed from within yeah and that's always a weird thing that seems to have been happening and and I don't know if that's conspiratory or whatever thinking but it just has always felt like that like everybody like I said that I've talked

to the majority are for it there's been a few here and there as I stated that I talked to and they seem to have changed their tune after hearing the facts of like what it truly is to unionize yeah um because they had these these misconstrued facts or ideas about what unions were or are or could have been and then when they hear this is or these these are the things that we should be fighting for and just because they may not be initially working it doesn't mean that that we don't have elected officials or people in positions that can renegotiate things yeah you know it's not like when you join a union it's just like flat across the board it's like it's an ongoing process and you're we're going to stumble out the blocks at first but it's it's it's a matter of of slow and steady and winning that race or at least being ahead in that race to where we don't have to panic and we're not tripping and falling and losing the race all together and so having the

facts having an idea and a plan or plans and ideas putting forth that that that momentum and those those ideas out into the ether so people can start seeing it in a better light of going hey here's the negatives and the positives you know we're always going to have these negatives but these positives far out way so I don't know like I said I I don't know where it is to begin you know I'm a part of me is just like it's not a matter of of saying you know [ __ ] you to the corporations and [ __ ] you to the bosses it's a matter of hey we've been screwed so hard throughout these Decades of working in this industry and we've seen it in other industries that please all we're asking for is a fair Level Playing Field yeah we're not trying to get more out of it we're not trying to bamboozle the system and and and and give it the shaft we're

trying to say hey we've been in situations and very desperate situations where we've had family and loved ones and other things that that needed taken care of and some of us were were living in cars some of us were jumping Industries and and having to get jobs that that that we didn't necessarily want to have to take but we needed to and our expert lies in this industry and what we want to see is common and beneficial things for all and what those things are we negotiate those things we we just like with any any sort of other plan this is what we're looking for we shoot for the damn Moon and even if we kind of get halfway there at least we're off of the earth we're better than where we when we started that journey in that voyage and so then we've got to keep building upon that and hopefully hit the moon and go beyond because the

more we're just doing what we're doing and spinning our Wheels we're never going to see see the this this Level Playing Field that I myself would like to see other people that I've seen struggle and myself at times struggle in this industry go through and so what that means in the future I don't know like I said if I had an idea or if somebody came to me and said hey could you do this or do that I would do everything that I could to try to make it happen and if that means that that that some employers are are no longer going to look at me in a in a in a in a positive light or whatever I'm willing to take that because the the the greater good and the benefit far outweighs um you know me potentially struggling it's going to suck don't get me wrong but I would like to believe that there are still some people that do know me that would be able to hire me knowing that I'm not trying to to be like burn it down and complete and total

Anarchy I'm like hey you know when these situations come up let's make sure that as a whole not just you as this Corporation all corporations just like all of us as taxpayers we all hate paying our taxes it's a it's it's organized crime it's robbery against us but we still do it and it's we can raise our fists but what what I think we need to be able to do is have all these corporations it's not just hey we're going after you as as unions or we're going after you it's like you know what if you guys are all good and cool and and a in a and above ground with the way that you make these practices happen in your industry or in your businesses you've got nothing to worry about you're setting out intentionally to try to screw over your employees then yeah burn in hell no but on average I think most corporations or most companies um smaller mid companies aren't out to do that you know they want to make money and they want to try to make sure that their employees are also

taken care of and so that's just kind of keeping everybody remembering remembering you know okay cool yeah if we do something like this there's going to be ramifications there's going to be repercussions and so let's all make sure that we don't have to resort to that that if you're not screwing me over now I don't have to use the union lawyers or the union to be able to to stand up and and do these things if you're if you're putting in good practices yeah that doesn't mean it'll always happen but know that when you start being and using unscrupulous practices here we have at least a way to retaliate instead of just going here punch me right there I'm just gonna take it you know so yeah I I think uh the most compelling thing you kind of mention which totally makes sense is it's almost like an insurance membership thing it's an op in out it it it it it gives an opportunity for anyone that's

interested and not interested to be a part of it uh but it's it's literally just like us helping each other out and uh in a way it's sustainable right obviously there might be some kind of uh beginning funding uh necessary to kind of have like a a positive number to kind of take from right but the contributing factor of every person every member that want to benefit from this you know eventually it should sustain itself um as long as you know uh The Limited membership doesn't uh outweigh you know uh the the person that isn't contributing you know you can't have we can't save 10,000 people if it's only based on 2,000 members type of thing right there's definitely an economy and a and a business model there that would make it work that make people feel a little safer your working industry and I think it's something that you know we're kind of meeting these corporations in

the middle because uh it's just like an optin solution almost like a like a third- party program that that allows uh uh allows employees to kind of take a piece of their paycheck you know instead of 401 well on top of their 401K hopefully right they can they can put it into this thing but like that that I think will that is very that's the problem with mization like most people talk about it I don't fully understand it right but like no one really broke it down like all right this is how it should work right and explaining it in a way that everyone understand how it would work and what I get out of it you know basically an insurance plan but isn't dumb right yeah because Insurance have its bad connotations to it but um no

it's it's it's I I got to talk to some people man because I feel like there's got to be some conversations going on man I mean we're all that it has to be action but I think a lot of people are so swamped with the chaos right now and that's the sad thing I think in our industry like we have like these major players that make it and a lot of times they just get out and a lot of times they tell people like don't invest in the game histry it's chaotic and it's sad because they they are actually in Prime positions to kind of make these changes necessary because they're not going to be de even if they going to be deified or deified or or or or or like outcasted there's they already made their money right there's no real big effect um but that's you know again we're looking at

like this X Factor and again not taking responsibility of what we need to do there does need to be combined with uh guys in the trenches guys and gals in the trenches to take action too we can't just wait for the Savior uh you know like Gabe newel which and to kind of yeah yeah to kind of do all this thing for us so there there needs to be combination of like if we love this industry you truly love it and you want to keep going on and you want to keep the talent here um yeah it's a it's a no-brainer because I feel like at this point I can confidently say everyone has have experienced a layoff right I mean maybe years ago his St age yeah maybe there was a high percentage but now is definitely everyone knows what this feels like um and there's unfortunately a lot of people that uh have experienced this many times as well right

so we uh this is a never ending topic you're giving me a lot of inspiration just from this talk to like all right I need to talk to some people too because you know that I I think the lack of Education around it just is huge it's huge like even like I've had probably three or four or five like maybe five episodes dedicated to unation to talking to people who who be behind the scenes but I would and you're still not any more aware than were five episodes yeah I'm I'm probably more aware than the average game developer but I I like you said it's an evolving thing and I think the last time I brought someone on was before Co and Co kind of take over to took over all the conversation and now it's ai ai took over everything before that that was nft like there's always like this technological disruption because we're the game industry deal with real time that takes over the conversation and unionization

unfortunately the most important thing that we should be talking about is always at the bottom of the totem pool uh deprioritize yeah because it's a it's it's difficult I guess the most difficult thing to talk about um I do want to say thank you for coming on uh for your third time right unofficially second time before uh I'm going to shut up I'm actually going to hand the mic over to you if you want to give extra attention to anything that you want to talk about uh directly to the listeners and viewers out there currently nothing I I think we've discussed you know one of the or the hottest issue that that's been happening in our industry this past year year and a half where like we were stating before we thought it was going to get better by the first of the year and and it just by the end of January beginning of February there was way more layoffs just in that one month than there was the entire year

before yes or close to it so that was in still is and like I said it's very disheartening you know whenever I heard about the stuff this morning it was just like oh and and you hear about all these other smaller Studios and other places and other companies you know 5% of its Workforce or this amount and and I read I read other consumers comments randomly um on Facebook or on Instagram or other um social media sites where people who aren't in the industry are are reading kotaku's um posts or other types of posts about the gaming industry and hearing you know some of the the general consensuses is well they were making games anyway what they expect you know or they don't it's like you know we get we get this this bad WP of like we shouldn't be making money anyway we shouldn't be having the benefits of um a true job because we chose to get in this industry in the first place and we're

only making games anyway so we're not really working and it's just crazy to hear you know these mindsets of of people who don't know any better um and it's also even more disheartening to hear when they speak about people that every person that gets laid off and that's been laid off has some sort of a family or themselves that need to be supported or things that need to taken care of um including mental health um you know lots of things go into this and so even if one person's laid off that's yeah that doesn't affect the majority of people and people continue to go on in life but that's completely life altering and that world gets turned upside down now you multiply that each time and that that that is a a giant giant giant problem that that happens and the fact that we those of us that have been around can like as I have unfortunately this morning just kind of like oh here we go again um is just kind of like I

said part for the course it's just like it's just part of what we do you know and it sucks to have to think about that and have to be that way because um you know nothing in life is guaranteed I understand that but I just wish that our industry was a little bit more stable in in being able to provide its its workers with little bit more of a foundational support um when it comes to their F our futures um you know and and yeah it could be easily stated well you know what invest your money or or don't spend your money on this and save it and and and and work you know find other things that you can do find side hustles and do this and that and it's just like I get all of that yeah but there is the reality that that's also not feasible for everybody and that's the that it's not feasible or it's not possible so um being able to help to

being able to take care of um the rest of people in this industry U which is you know I wish it could happen worldwide but you know that's that's a that's a whole another issue of things but at least within our industry we experience it daily the ins and outs of it the ups and downs because we've also like you said almost all of us at this point in this journey if you've been in this industry for more than three or four years chances are you've probably either been laid off or your company has gone under or some other unforeseen circumstance has happened to you and so going back to I remember the first time I ever ever had to go on unemployment back in 1996 I remember it was very taboo for anybody for me to say anything at that time I was you know 18 19 years old to say that I was even on unemployment because it felt dirty and so I I I think it's it's it's something that um you

know when it comes to all of this stuff that people we just need to to to band together we need to be able to to help and support because you know all of us if not by now will experience this I remember you know I never thought I'd have to be on unemployment you know that I I also thought before that that oh that was for for people that that didn't work or didn't want to work or that were and it had nothing to do with that and now you see you know how it's changed and how so many of us have been on Unemployment and how many uh people can speak on hey do this this is what I had to do you know on unemployment you know when you need questions answered you got to call into that nightmare of a hotline to try to get you know your your cases worked out or whatever um you know those those are things that have just now become somewhat of a norm and so I'm hoping one day that we look back at all of this in this industry and go remember that time when when when all this chaos you know for 30 plus years was happening you know and and now here we are where

at least things are a little bit more sustainable you know whether it's from a union or whether it's from other sort of some sort of program or just the the realization of um a positive thing of corporate people in general just having a better mindset you know not out to screw the world over or to try to to to fleece the gaming industry and make a quick buck and then get out um with their little bits of profits or large profits that they've made hopefully one day that you know we'll we'll get these people that run these companies um who truly do enjoy it and and understand the ins and outs as you were saying and plan for knowing that you know what just because we made a hundred million on this game doesn't mean that our next title will do that so let's let's reinvest let's put it back into making sure that we don't ever have to worry

about that or or at least eliminate as much as possible that mindset of when you have to let people go of you know what we've reinvested you guys are good for for this amount of time so let's just continue down this path and and everybody feel good you know and and then and then we'll revisit later on if things don't change and and keeping everybody you know um being transparent with it you know and so I just that's what I hope for in the future whether that's with a unionization call or whatever it is I don't know but I hope you know fingers crossed you know I've I've been through enough and so I would like some sort of for people coming into it to be able to see them be able to be proud and be happy and being able to to raise a family or provide for themselves or whoever else in this industry and not have to look elsewhere

um into something that they didn't spend money on in schooling or other ways and things like that to where they can continue doing what it is that they love you know so yeah um I second that it's a great industry to to be in uh when very much so things are not this bad usually uh when when it comes to like working with your buddies and and making great art and and products for for for people to enjoy you know that part is awesome we'll always be awesome we'll continue to be awesome uh and uh with all these issues still it's incredible uh that we're we're I still love it yeah we still love it and that's the it's the funny thing is like we constantly get burned by the business of it but love haate it's a LoveHate Thing so uh yeah it was great talking to you Damien uh as

always um we'll probably going to have to keep talking about this unfortunately once in a while but hopefully things things are going to get better uh I do feel it I feel the itch uh I hope so uh but other than that see you guys all next week [Music] [Music]