Game Licensing for Streamers? | Roundtable News | Game Dev Unchained Episode 241

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of i am your host brandon fam and with me i have a very special friend uh unsuspecting and impromptu roundtable news episode ray graham with how you doing man what's up how you doing thanks for having me back i always do this out order now so this is the game development podcast the number one game development podcast about the lifestyle and game developers thing and well let's just go right into it man uh this is something that usually stays within the discord channel i kind of had like a warm up with the listeners on our blue chance discord channel uh this past couple weeks and uh

rarely do those actually get into the podcast episode but it was so polarizing so let me kind of break this down a bit uh before we go into our stances right now i i have a feeling of your opinion and i'm probably going to be siding on the unpopular side oh god this is more this is part of the fun right so let's go into this week's uh round two [Music] a little bit of the breakdown of how this all started right so this is the second time that twitch streamers got notification for a dmc a takedown notices basically uh just copyright infringement uh where they inform streamers of all size and types to delete their data so the first time they gave an ample enough time the second time it was pretty pretty quick and swift where they themselves the twitch

administrative took liberty to start deleting basically content from their website to kind of uh save themselves from any uh possibility of being sued right because they had like a big big big rundown of um everything so dmc of course is standing for digital millennium copyright act it's just standard copyright stuff for digital content uh this goes for across pretty much all mediums like music movies etc except for games which is funny but this uh deleting infringement material there was a huge upset backlash but understandable no one's kind of arguing about the fact that they had to take or remove copyright music from their streams uh they were more complaining about the fact that they had to do it all suddenly and didn't have the time to react appropriately all right so that's funny in it itself and then

this guy uh alex hutchinson uh at bang bang click by the way uh interesting interesting guy with an interesting nomenclature for his twitter handle said this right and let's go a little bit closer so i can see this uh streamers worry about getting their content pulled because they use music they didn't pay for should be more worried by the fact that they'll be streaming games they didn't pay for as well it's all gone as soon as publishers decide to enforce it all right that caused a monster thread you know it's been retweeted hundreds of times re-quoted thousands of times google stadia uh even publicly distances from studio creative director alex hutchinson if you haven't heard the news right and of course two people use this as a bandwagon to kind of [ __ ] on stadiums like what that's why no one's playing stadium because of opinions like this and that's separate from the fact uh

that this guy had a to me had an opinion that was not so crazy um at least to me felt like uh something worth exploring um so let me kind of hear your take your your reaction to this um what's your feel about all this yeah that's a lot that's a lot but i just want to catch everyone up before we get into it i mean um i think the main the main thing is uh it's it's weird the whole thing is weird to me because coming from somebody well it's clear google was like we don't know this guy no right google's was like yeah like his his statements are not ours because like we have youtube we have stadia which is all about youtube

it's it's one of his killer features is for streamers to get more people to play games we love streamers we embrace streamers y'all y'all crazy to think that we don't and we don't know this guy that's basically that's basically what google did right yeah and uh and i'm about the thing where i'm like yeah like the um i think the relationship between streamers and game devs has is one that has been contentious in the past but really it's something that is it's it's a symbiotic relationship right um people have seen increased sales as a result of people streaming right so it's like free advertising for your for your game right is it though it is though it is though there's there's actual stats and people have seen this happen right uh there's debates about oh but what if it's a story game a two-hour story game you shouldn't stream that because then now you've spoiled the

whole story right and yeah sure i feel you don't watch those streams like if you care about if you care about the story of a two-hour story game don't watch that stream like straight up yeah go go go go play well definitely this is what happened right it started with the whole fad of let's play videos you know you know walk-throughs right and uh that it's an industry and the subculture that exploded into its very own thing and at the very beginning didn't involve too much of the dev uh from that game right and it exploded into its own thing and now devs are kind of forced to play along because uh that conversation never took place right this is kind of like hey we're we're in this it's symbiotic it's an organic shirt right it is something that uh that that just grew

by itself right it was fully embraced by multiple communities uh and now we're at the point where twitch streamers are like entertainers like athletes are being paid bang bucks right to to stream games and though the thing i think that is is what people arguing about and this is pro pretty polarizing even though it seems like this whole thread and it's like a lot of people talking and giving opinions so we'll go through and pick out the ones that make sense but there's a lot of back and forth mostly because you know the dev have always taken a back seat to others kind of um uh benefiting from from our products right we've always we've always are second tier to to to that success right and even with the streaming you know the marketing data kind of organically sometimes work out that way

but like you said single player games any developers who don't have control over their own content uh are are sometimes hurt by the streaming and this is the only entertainment industry games that are having no control over this right music movies can't do this and it has been widely accepted that of course you can't go out there selling mickey mouse purse without licensing that [ __ ] right but for games that takes infinitely a lot longer to make and it is a sink or sale uh sink or swim type of industry uh die by the sword you know live by the sword type of thing and uh the developer is largely left out of that conversation uh and in this on this fact to eat this guy maybe shouldn't have said it um he said the question

representing google stadium yeah he said the quiet part out loud that's really what happened there right yeah um he should have kept this voice down on that one and maybe said it a bit differently because here's okay here's the here's the thing right you know and i know that there's people out there right now that are making games and are designing it in order to be streamable you know you know that for a fact they're like how can we make this game be a game that people can watch on stream and be excited about um there's people literally designing for this as part of their game right so i can't much feel bad for the developers also like i think fortnite and apex legends i i'm pretty sure they're not crying about streamers streaming their content and not having to control that's how they're doing yeah yeah that's how those that's how those games succeeded right that's how like that's how those games got so big um there are cases where like nintendo is like don't stream our stuff and i've

been taking down streams of nintendo games right like and then the people are angry about that right um so there are cases of game developers saying no you can't stream my stuff right uh but it is a very rare thing because people's people see the upside the upside on it right um even the the publishers and the the money people see the upside on it and so they're not really going to be like hey take take down my game right yeah i'm just the default person developers they get the developers on the individual teams already screwed regardless right like either either one way or the other way uh so i wouldn't i wouldn't use that argument to talk about publishers and whoever yeah if they're working for a uh investment uh they're most likely only have a percentage but even then if you're also even if you're also if you're a small dev like fall guys yeah got successful it's a fun game to play but also yes this is my argument and this is the

argument and let me sorry like sorry apologize right i know apologies like this is usually the part where you know i would have a streamer on to kind of talk on that point inside this was you know an episode kind of put together last minute and the people i did ask had interest but you know i had i had people from facebook i had people from google that were interested but they basically their company said no of of course yeah yeah of course but like but that that's that's the weird part right like even if they feel a certain way it is still taboo to say suddenly i'm against streamers just willy-nilly having all this power um over the content that i've created right it is for some reason very taboo and for the reasons that you kind of stated but i would say this right i'll also i'll also add though like and i think the part that i see this argument made online is streamers do add a bit more to the

content right yeah like the what those they're called the popular streamers are not the ones that are just playing your game the poverty stream is the ones that are doing their little performance and the ones that are super annoying are the ones that are making the most amount of money because they're there somebody finds them interesting or pleasing to watch right i think people to me what upsets me the most is like people somehow compare our industry so unique to this that we aren't able to duplicate you know what other industries do um that is nonsense right i mean to me i think i'm coming from a place where if a developer or publisher even the big guys right for some reason people say the big guys don't have a say in in the over the content no i don't think that's true either right if they bought the conduit they financed the team they have a say in how their content is being distributed it's all big companies that's how every industry works so throw that that window that doesn't make sense uh what i'm saying is that to me it's part of a marketing

decision and it should come from a developer if they want to make it royalty free streaming or not like music right there are royalty-free music out there and it's open for people to use it yeah exactly but if they want to exclusively have streamers like athletes who sponsor products right um it's very much the same way but again it starts with dev first mentality and devs should have that say i think it's just something that kind of ran away from us because developers have always had this problem of like their heads down and finishing the game and that's why most of the time people creep around and get you know screw them right and screw us i mean that's just how it's been right so like we let this streaming thing got to a mega industry and uh and seeing runaway success um

where we're again at the mercy of another person right much like here's the publisher are we at the mercy of them really i i don't i don't this this is my frustration right this is my frustration yeah so i i to me it starts with does it work for a team of one or two people right if i knew make a game and we make this single player experience if we want but we wouldn't because it wouldn't work but we make this game that we are uh fully behind and believe and excited about and we know it's gonna be awesome i think i would be upset if i don't have to say in who gets to stream it or not like i would be upset that i can't use that as part of my marketing strategy i can't i would be upset that if people want to watch this game that i have the first rights as a developer to stream it before everyone else or exclusively stream it on my channel before everyone else to me

that is an extra strength uh and recognizing that streaming is part of our culture now that is taken away from me as a developer that i have no say where every other industry movies and music big or small has that ability to make that decision first um and i don't think it's people are afraid of the hiccup that it may cost the the symbiotic relationship that has organically happened they think it's going to interrupt and it will right there might be like a little pause and rethinking of things but i don't really see it as a far cry of uh creating a successful formula where devs and streamers and publishers are happy with something that works and makes sense like other forms of entertainment right um that's why i don't think it's so bizarre the way he said it where he's coming from yeah it makes it very click-worthy right but the way that's polarizing the

community a bit it was like there's something there to explore where like we're not just talking about streamers and game developers right we're talking about twitch we're talking about youtube we're talking about facebook right these mega multi-billionaire multi-billion companies who completely skips the developers and go straight to the streamers like athletes as they are i'm not downplaying that but again devs are out of that circle of conversation it's like what they're building a whole thing based on our content here to get rich off of so what i'm hearing is if streamers weren't successful weren't making money then we wouldn't care like you're just salty that people are making money that's that's what it's so like it sounds like a whole bunch of pocket pocket watching right you're watching you're watching a next man's pocket right you're like yo you're using my content and you're making a whole bunch of money well just like anything else

if you make noise where's my piece of the money that's in your pocket there's something there man like the end of the day at the end of the day though is like if i just stream your game and i don't know what i'm doing i'm destroying your game i'm not gonna make no money nobody's going to watch my stream and nobody's going to care right and there's also nothing stopping the developers themselves from streaming the game and saying because there's developer streams right of course people before the game comes out they're like we're going to do a developer stream every week for like the next month so you can see our game and see see how we're building and how it's come together before we launch and then they do like all day streams of day of launch they try to get hype and people watch right yeah but there's ways there's ways for development but when i'm just saying as a developer to be unchanged for a developer to be having control again like i think we are letting go of something uh without

putting up a fight and or at least having a conversation about why why why why shouldn't this be a devs first type of rights to stream your own content and not have everyone and their mom uh just be able to kind of stream your home game interpret their own way and and and market it in a way without your input like it feels kind of silly that we don't have that message that's what makes it art that's what makes it art too and that's what makes it different than say movies and music right where music movies and music i play your music i'm not adding anything to it i'm just playing your music if i play your movie i ain't adding anything to it your movies yeah but right but guess what even if you go pewdiepie on a piece of music and you play and stream three hours of kanye's you know album you know you're gonna get sued because because yeah because it's also a non-interactive form of media like

because games are interactive every streamer is gonna be different every playthrough is gonna be different unless now the argument you get to is like oh i'll make it a two hour story game it ain't different it's just a story exactly you're playing through it i i do think in those cases you could like and and i think i've seen people have done this they go hey streamers you can stream our game cool to stream the first 20 minutes yeah but how how how many of those cases are they're like hey no they're like hey you want a key here's the key here's the game stream here sign this contract stream only the first 20 minutes sure i mean that's kind of like a gentleman's agreement but like the same way we don't let's be honest here twitch and youtube is not going to do a dmca sweep uh when a single-player game nintendo though they've done that for nintendo right yeah and so so they're it's possible for devs like like if you're in yes so like a light switch publishers big

publishers if ubisoft suddenly say hey you can't do this then yes it will stop it and also and also what's crazy is publishers also have streaming embargoes right so like there'll be youtubers and stuff that get the game early and can't stream it because they'll come back to their console and find their consoles lock off right because because there's an embargo and they're like no you could you can only start streaming it once the game's released or or once uh other people can start buying it right that's also happened to happen with spiderman spider-man which other games right so so there has been some cases of publishers being like nah nah nah stream it when we say you you're going to stream it but they all recognize that they want those streamers streaming their games right because they want to make money and that's how they're going to sell more copies right yeah i i i guess the the pushback is that yeah the publishers if they want to they can right yes and the small developers don't

really have that ability to do that right you're small you small man you know but so i'm trying to go from a standpoint and it's not like me telling hey let's turn off the switch stop the horses stop the engine all right you're just getting you're just like me yeah yeah i'm not saying that i know that's not going to happen right yeah unless all the publishers in coalition can can realistically say no streaming of our content unless you get approved they can do that tomorrow but they're not ready to do that for because of the backlash um i think game cells are dropped too i think the backlight should be just like it could it would take a chance out of revenue and i i would probably agree with you if across the board all games are benefiting but in in in most cases it's multiplayer it's it's it's uh mostly multiplayer

games right it's mostly uh physic based games right uh there's a very uh catered audience that streaming does really well and actually benefit the game right there's a very specific type of game that can do that right but across the board when they're not doing that other games don't benefit and in most cases hurt the sales because people already experienced that um and like movies right there's more leaning towards linear gameplay uh people don't go out and usually follow through and purchase because of those reasons right if if all games were benefiting like we are thinking when people are streaming games and the games are going crazy right the argument for streaming to keep it open and free then of course yeah it's like why why stop this gravy train right but i feel i feel it's changing the way we make games so much because we have relinquished control

game developers and the financing of games have kind of have to bend to the will of this cult the subculture right that has went bona fide success that it's affecting the way we make gains it's affecting the games that we want to make that and we're not a part of that conversation i think that's a real problem i just like hey if you're affecting not just the game that i made then you're streaming the content but you're affecting the future games that i want to make and i'm still not a part of this conversation then there's something wrong with this system here because now we're just catering to your audience right yeah yours you're streaming because that's the industry right like the interest is going to react to where the money's at right that sucks right because not everybody watches streaming you know war zone all the time it's like i do miss like a single player experience where where where it's completely non-existent anymore play that joy play a single there's tons of single-player games in play

spider-man it's just game of my game of the year last year but we know as a fact that these type of games when you go into these investor meetings and you have this idea that 10 years ago would have been financed on the spot because of the you know clear resume of successes out there they're not getting funded anymore because of these streamers kind of changing our culture where like uh they know it's a risk it's like hey you put this out but like what what's the point was once on one stream or just streaming for two hours straight you're not to steal anything that was the same argument people had for like oh you're making a game without multiplayer yeah those those exist right like every game had to have multiplayer for a while because that's the only way you really get fighting because every game is popular now and then and then last year it was like six uh single-player non-multiplayer games there were major successes right like so and i think we're always worried about these things but i don't i don't think it's actually a problem per se um and like uh you're saying something

else about like we don't have control you know we never ever troll over the games we're going to make right and and there's also the there's also the diversity aspect of this yeah you know you know a lot of people talk about the game industry and how do you get your foot in the door in the game industry right um so there's the development side but then other people are like hey you could be a commentator you could be a streamer you can be esports player right um and make good money do these things right so it's just another part of the industry that has opened the door to a lot more people uh sure but with even esports right there's uh and grown the impact of gaming right you know esports the commentators that go wrong with esports the amount of money i'm not dismissing yeah i don't want to like completely put people out of jobs that are because streamers are part of game development right now is especially

and um but i would have to argue that esports and and these competition events are doing it correctly they're involving developers like you can't just throw one in your garage well you you can but the big ones were the ones that were started by the actual publishers right exactly and so and so and i i'm and i'm there's nothing stopping you as a publisher from doing that but somebody else could say hey and you kind of mentioned before like the the way that yeah yeah the the way that have uh you know made uh battle royale games really popular have been the sponsoring of streaming content sure on a big level sure but across the board again i think the story is still the same right the big guys are always going to succeed with uh with this but the small guys are kind of left in the dust right and it's it's i feel like there's

something there where we can work together and and make this work better than it is right now where it's kind of the wild west it's like as soon as my game is out tomorrow on steam i know it's going to be either good or for bad it's going to be streamed the whole time and i i just gotta hope and pray that people find it like impactful enough to follow through and you better make a good game you better make a game if people want to play it's leaving it again you leave you leave the marketability of your game uh out of your control but then you're you're asked to go and fix it because it's your problem again it's it to me it's like hey the streamers and and everybody's wrecked my place in my plan and now i'm asked to kind of fix it and work around it like we've always done and i and i'm not saying anything and not this guy even though i don't like the way he said it he's not saying anything that other industries haven't been doing it's like very normal um

let's just go back to homeboy real quick like i'm just saying if you're working at google stadium of all places yeah you don't say that you don't do that even i don't even i don't you don't do that right like if you're if you're working at some other video game company if you're working at like a cd project right or something interesting if you're going to see you already said that that's still you're still going to be in a whole lot out of our state this year right because cd projekt red is like every stream on earth has a cyberpunk secret lab chair right like i mean right like like every street on earth right now has a cyberpunk secret lab chair right so like they know where the bread is getting buttered right and they have their own streaming that they do to pimp their game every week they show off you know their game uh so yeah like it's just it's just you don't say that stuff like i hear you yeah you wanna you wanna go to streamers and be like hey guys give us three percent of of all your every time for every hour that you stream our game

no it's not even that complicated that's not even that complicated i don't want to be as i don't want to spotify the [ __ ] out of it all right it's more like hey uh it's like conversations like hey i want you to stream or is as simple as like you got to gain my permission to stream my game i mean that's all it i'm asking like it just it sounds like a very respectable way to do business how about i i paid 60 for your game right and in some in some cases these streamers are getting sent the game for free because they because the publishers are like yo stream that like they're just like they we watch you stream this here you go right um but like you got paid for the game so now they're going to stream it but what's up now the people are not going to be able to play it but but they're going to be able to see the game and maybe they like it and maybe they go pick up your game like i think i think the i hear what you're saying but i think the game is much bigger than the loss right and i do and i do and i do say in the

cases of like oh i have some two hour game like gone home or something like that right uh i think yeah games like gone home can't be made anymore i think extremely well you can make it right people are still gonna make it and people are gonna still maybe enjoy it and because they're what they're doing for the art of it right you gotta sell finance that same thing you can't go yeah the thing is you can't go into business those games and those games may still be successful and they may still be able to get funded right by people that care about the art form of video games right it's not like oh you're making a video game i'm gonna assume he's gonna get streamed and now this game makes no sense right like that's not the case not every game gets streamed the games that are the most enjoyable to watch get streamed right and then and then now we're we're making the games so that they will be streamed because we know the benefit of that right um i feel like we're making the rules and adjusting and adapting i mean that's the best we can do for the

case but i don't know man like we are it's it's funny it's this this is the hypocrisy of it right twitch right twitch enforces a role for dmca for music when their whole platform their whole platform is our streaming games without the permission of the content creators their whole business is surrounded with that and it's just there's an actual law though like there's actually like there's actual law that you can enforce this is like law right and there's no law about street video games so like of course well digital millennium copyright act that games fall under that it's not just for muslims cover music movies any digital let me [ __ ] up we're not striking every single game that's streaming right now then right but because the fact because of

the fact that we discuss like publishers sees it as vanish or they don't want the backlash like as soon as like for stadia not to uh well i mean stadium understandably their streaming service and then a creative director from them saying it's you know anti-streaming uh [ __ ] right it's always going to be bad news um so oh it's just a funny funny thing that this i don't know i always equated to this right me being asian the community always pick on asians because asians take it right what are you talking about asians usually avoid confrontation and keep going forward and succeed and and do what they need to do to get things done right and i feel like game developers at large is kind of taking whatever is thrown at them and adapting the same exact way and the reason why that uh twitch is respecting the wishes of

the music industry more than the game developers is that there is no voice from the game developer saying this isn't cool except for this guy or another guy once in a while whose company completely denies their existence as soon as they say it right we don't get support from our own people uh to stand up to say what's right and what's ours and what we should be able to do and say with our things right and so it's not the fact that this industry is beneficial or not it's more the facts like hey why don't you ask the content creators first what they want to do with their content for permission just permission man and most people i would agree will probably see the benefits and say hey yeah go for it you can do it no craziness maybe some and very few will actually say hey 10 points 10 cents per stream per person per thousand or whatever right i don't think developers are in the well i'll start the dmca right for video games

so there's actually like video games and online games are not covered by the dmca like from what i'm seeing here um so yeah good luck there [Music] well that is probably because the same thing i've been saying it's like we don't have the people to kind of fight for this why is it digital content such as ours is not covered new exemption was made for computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require original media or hardware as a condition of access so that's for old old games uh there was computer programs protected by dongles electronic books uh what else there's a bunch of bunch of exemptions that have been made um for computer programs and stuff like that yeah obsolete software video formats

right so there's all sorts of loopholes and exemptions that have been made for the dmca uh video games in the form of computer programs embodied in a physical or downloadable formats that have been lawfully acquired as complete games when the copyright owner or its authorized representative has ceased to provide access to an external computer server necessary to facilitate an authentication process right so yeah there's all sorts of loopholes and stuff that we put into place to get around to get around this and i think you can if you want to be if you do want people not to stream your game i think you do have the right to say hey don't stream my game uh but you will be viewed upon as anti-fun anti-money all right let me read this right this is the sentiment but at least you have control over your video game though right but this let me read this right because i see this on this thread from alex and this is the ignorance that i'm kind of

fighting against right this is what upsets me right so this is from riku how about we just have people pay a license for everything which they do uh vehicles and tv so yeah movies and videos yeah licensed food and cooking yeah clothes yes everything that you're listing is existing right now that is what's happening but for some reason games don't have to follow that rule because for some reason they think content creators in games is not as important or it doesn't have much of a say in what they do with the content i don't understand that thinking process right i think at least we should agree that we are just the same as everybody else and there's a reason why they have a say in their own product it's not evil right if nike says stop putting that [ __ ] logo on your shoe it's ours right it's very natural there's a reason why and if you're a business owner

you'll instantly agree right and when you're a small time developer or at a big publisher you feel the same sentiment and naturally it's like hey this is a piece of my work but you are doing whatever you want with it um and i'm just i'm just from a perspective of permissions first it's like you gotta involve the original creator right a painter who paints right has a say who buys their [ __ ] and gets to do with that stuff right you can't go up there well i know for a fact you can't go out there and and and and copy someone's art and sell it as and pawn it off as your own right there's people who people do this all the time right yeah but people scamming right it's illegal right but we're openly letting people scam in a way our games are they scam are they scamming though i think i think it's strong words i think you i think

you're using strong words like fine like they are using our content for their own benefit right yeah yeah well that's that's that's fundamentally the wrong way to use someone's content the reason why you made the video game for people to enjoy your content and you want to be able to see your content to reach a lot of different people no no no no the reason why i want to make a video game is for me to first of all financially setting myself to continue making games that i don't want and that is that is not the reason why you maybe do games and no and seriously if anybody can hey man if i can't afford making my next game what's the point of making video just to go out and done and get ready i'm saying is if anybody really got into this industry because they they thought they were going to make enough money to make another video game i think i think they're in the wrong industry lately because you are you're literally rolling the dice there on that one exactly but that that's i think that's the fundamental

problem yeah it's a fundamental problem with game developers giving up control though like publishers yeah but publishers own us right or in in very small cases right if you 100 finance your own game then you have to stay in creative control to do what you want but most cases uh even with small indie games you're getting independently financed and you're at the will of that person right so you're telling me from start to finish to after we're just always at the mercy of others as developers are you at the mercy of streamers no i would not use that terminology to say that right if i were to make my game then yes i am here's the thing here's the thing as a game developer do you after you ship that game do you personally want to then log on to twitch and stream that game for 24 hours for weeks and weeks and weeks on end yes if i do not you do not not me personally

not me personally but if i can hire a streamer for our team like a community manager just like any role at a company who dedicates in streaming yes they do this but what's gotten out of control is everyone else can do it as well like what the value of exclusivity the value exclusivity is a strength that game developers don't have right now in the their content and i think that should be uh within their rights to have a say right exclusivity makes people go to your channel while you're promoting your game or going to streamers that you finance exclusively as a partnership and in a way they share a royalty in streaming your game as well i feel like you're taking that whole possibility out of the equation where it's more like any other industry and it's not crazy where sport athletes get sponsored all the time

and much like that streamers like athletes can't be sponsored or worked with a game developer right it doesn't have to be a percentage royalty per stream it's literally like hey i'm paying you to do certain things and here's the thing and that happens right streamers today get sponsored by companies all the time of course right and uh and another part of it is it sounds like your anti-competition [Music] right now right competition no no no no your anti-competition and then you you want you want an exclusive market for your video game for your game yeah for your game and and and why is that bizarre why is that bizarre if i make like an invention screamers are getting sponsored all the time by view game people right now and the thing that i like about it being open is that you know the whole notion of oh that streamer is a paid shill right do you think that the streamers that have that cyberpunk 2077 secret lab chair are going to then

play cyberpunk and say that the game's garbage uh you're talking about people having an open opinion about their own work yeah yeah do you really believe that do you think if they're being sponsored or part of their revenue is going to the company they can actually still be impartial when it comes to streaming no right uh if you're working well i mean that's i mean i mean but there's still going to be opinions whether it sucks or not right like like people who watch a nike commercial can still form their own opinion right how is it any different these secret life chairs are very comfortable by the way i have one i'm sitting right now but uh yeah but let me let me say this 2077 secret lab chair i'll be i'd be super happy to not say anything bad about cyberpunk and i probably will be incentivized and also that color is my opinion of it when i play it right of course that's a working relationship that's a working partnership but somehow if lebron wear nike shoes

we're gonna fault lebron for getting paid by nike to see nike's the [ __ ] right what's the difference here right are we suddenly gonna turn our back on what advertising in every other industry and how it works i'm not going to trust lebron's opinion that the nikes are the best shoes to wear you know what i mean yeah but that's you making your own opinion so how we so why is it different with games that suddenly we think gamers are are suddenly robots who can't make their own decision because game developers are choosing who they want to sponsor to promote their games just like everybody else i feel like there is enough room here to play around with the money like it's really one-sided right now right and yes we are kind of benefiting accidentally right it was never meant for us to to be a part of that equation but we're adapting because we're [ __ ] always adapting to other people's

will and and power right and i feel like it is worth it it is within law and our rights to be like hey don't do that [ __ ] just like how we said big publishers at any point in the year or next the next day or future can say don't b-street my [ __ ] and that would be perfectly okay right so it's not so crazy i'll just say i'll just say like this i think publishers and developers can't say don't stream my game to streamers and yeah actively go after them they can't do that they have all the power of the world to do that why don't they because i think it's the same situation with nike that you mentioned with nike lebron right um nike pays lebron to wear their shoes why what is that what is in it for them what's in it for them is one of the greatest players in the world is going to wear their shoes and then people are going to be like yo i need to get a pair of nikes because i want to be like lebron just like how everybody wanted to be like mike you know what i mean right that that person is is is influential enough to drive money to the

company and those and trust me right now nike ain't sitting there saying damn lebron pay us money they ain't saying that they're happy that lebron is there and that they're paying lebron right right and so the way to move forward with this is actually for us to embrace it if you want to have control over your content and want to have control over how it's streamed and all this kind of stuff and who streams what and when it's to take ownership of it and to pay these people that are streaming your your stuff i think what reap and then reap the benefits of it when when people say hey i want to play that game put down the ground rules and take control over it right this is where that's how you do it right this is where i take 10 steps forward and ahead of everybody right we talk about all these what people worry about most about is like hey i want to stream with my friends and suddenly i can't that messes up this whole ecosystem it's like all right

you're the small fry in this equation right so this system exists because of the big streamers right the mega streamers and the mega streamers guess what their livelihood yes they get donation they build an audience and they can do okay but the big money is getting finance exclusive rights just like any athlete does branding like nike's right there these deals are being made right but this is these deals are being made from the twitch and twitch streamer or facebook or youtube streamer right one two one right complete developers out of the way right to implement this role it's more asking these [ __ ] corporations right that have a shitload of money and they are completely cheating the developer out of that whole deal right and that is where for just like netflix just like any streaming content they have to have exclusive

library that they can cycle and ask for permission to have that to stream for their exclusive streamers right yeah what did what did netflix do what did the flips do about that which which part about the part of like having the licensing they have to pay licensing fees they made their own stuff they said i ain't doing this no more right like are they are they because yeah they're at the will of these guys and they certainly start financing and that benefits content creators look at what netflix is doing they're these games that have never thank you for proving my point right these movies these movies that are not marvel movies are suddenly dying at theaters and now i only are surviving on streaming um uh networks like netflix right now they're getting content because they know they have to create and finance their own content this is what i'm saying like if if facebook suddenly has to pay

bethesda or all these companies for the rights to stream their game exclusive rights even right suddenly the small creators benefit from that because the small creators can go straight to netflix like let's create content that you can own so you don't have to use third-party content and then you can have your exclusive streamers this is what i'm saying there's a lot of business potential that is not being realized and being thrown out with the bath water and i think other industries have shown us that this can work and guess what dude these twitch streamers in the last year or two are [ __ ] getting screwed too just like us because they can get dropped at at a like doctor disrespect at a second's notice and completely flipped uh or or mistreated where they're looking over at mixer i wouldn't and and disrespect as an example well doctors i actually you know work with them so i know i don't know i know you guys though yes but like but yeah this again these are bigger

mega companies that are using exclusive content without paying a licensing fee and just dealing with streamers as their little toy and doing whatever they want with it because gamers and game developers are not a part of that talk i just feel like this is something that can benefit everybody um right like certain games are being killed right now and the movie industry showed that these games should can still be enjoyed um when something is controlled the main difference is the main difference is like i'll say it again with netflix and all that netflix those licenses movie yes the small movie developer gets some money you know you fund this game fund this movie that nobody else is going to watch yeah and people watch it netflix stuff pays that money because defense wants to gain users exclusive yeah they're gonna get money from their from the users that they gain right and then the users watch the movie right the users are not going to watch

the movie and then go to a movie theater and watch a movie again right yeah that is how they're going to consume the content right with a video game somebody sees your stream that oh that was cool there's a high probability that they will then go out and buy that video game right that's not true man i'm seeing data i'm [ __ ] stats we have sets all this though we have the stats on this right but that's only for true for certain games right that's only true for certain genres very specific genres and ghosts from streams sure but i equate those genres even though they're not as big budgeted marvel movies right they're popcorn games and popcorn movies so only a certain amount of games are being made and being financed right it has to be why it does it though does it though of course no there's no your game if your game is not that's not true before i feel like people who argue at this point forget that the pre-streaming age

of games where there were great games that weren't watchable but just played and enjoyable or selling millions of copies like games like this that weren't watchable existed before and aren't existing now and this is because the paradigm shift of the business i think but i think that's also for other reasons right that's for other reasons like like commander conquer was a great game but like ain't nobody playing real time strategy games anymore and real time started games would be actually fun to watch because why because we watched starcraft stream so many times right but there's other things that have made those games no longer popular let's say right maybe it's the younger the younger generation whatever it just wayne i just think those games are not just being well a lot of it has because is because it's not being made as much and the exposure is not as much there and then yeah in return like financers aren't financing those type of games because they're looking at the date they're looking at twitch stream now this is the problem right this is the problem where they're looking at twitch

stream as the epitome of these are games that are people are enjoying they don't enjoy your game because there's no data supporting it right we don't have the problem with the game industry is that we're not open right we don't have blockbuster we don't have box mojo right we used to have steamspy right and that was unofficial we're not open enough to kind of showcase the data needed yeah charts not even vg charts but like it like a fully comparable to the gaming to the movie industry that data i can't go to a certain genre a certain game and be able to say this is how much it uh did well this weekend right it's not as as specific and for game industry not to be that transparent becomes an issue because now whatever is transparent isn't reflective of you know what everyone's feeling like i'm not always playing multiplayer games or i mean the top 10 games of twitch like i don't always enjoy those games like

i like private time uh and i you know even reddit i'm playing red hat too right and even though that is a watchable fun game but it's people will argue like it's not the top 10 right now therefore it's dead it's like no it's just [ __ ] awesome people are still playing this game right well well also like uh rockstar is not saying daniel streamers we we didn't make any money of this game like they're not saying that at all right they made a right here but what i'm saying but what i'm saying is i'm using it as a point because if people were to use data right now on what's hot to project what games should be made in finance the next year or two it's the wrong it's the wrong measure we've done that even before streaming right when when gta was successful we made a bunch of gta clones and didn't realize and you realized we had no idea how to make a gta game and made terrible ass gta clones right right i did that we do we do it all the time right of course people copy games yeah

and that's fine i mean that's that's developing copy games copy trends too right copy trends but that's games riffing off yeah that's developers riffing off each other i don't mind that right fortnite fortnite's a clone but uh right but like gone home let's say the streaming world gone home had the same thing right it's a single player gaming a lot of independent developers use gone home as a measure to like hey that's it's gonna it's like going home but this way right and a lot of it worked for a few years until you know other factors like streaming became a marketing decision in a marketing risk right i think there's so many like industries that i can pull up to to say that there is a lot of benefit to exclusive rights and a lot of power behind having exclusive rights or decisions behind your content to put it up there brandon you're like it's my money i want to keep all my money it's not about my money it's my i should

have the ability to competition i want to control my content and screw you guys for me if it's not silly to you to think that nike has the right to pick and choose who they want to wear their products right do you agree on that at least most people will agree yeah that's fine they don't get the bigger juice away from products because no to the seller to sell give them to everybody for marketing or marketing right for marketing and exposure they get to choose who and what and when for marketing why is it so bizarre and that type of thinking kind of scares me a bit why is it so suddenly preposterous that game developers have the same right you know there's something weird there don't you think that like i don't say it's preposterous and i'm saying that game developers are out there right now doing that yeah they're like hey you you i want you to advertise my game i want

you to have this cyberpunk 2077 yes but in a sec i think i think this is where this is where this is where i'm still i feel strongly about it right if it was like four or five years ago before twitch before youtube and gaming before facebook were basically paying millions of dollars for streamers to kind of drive this content for them for their services then it it felt it felt more fair game right it felt more like hey here's a business guy basically a streamer doing his own thing promoting and it seems a little bit more unofficial and organic but right now we have the biggest tech companies who wants a piece of this and they're bypassing what other industries have to pay for netflix brands everything have to pay for exclusive right to content before their people or their distribution channels like streamers can actually use it to

to to for their work right they have to have some responsibility here that i feel that they're skipping and they're it's a loophole i feel right um and i i don't think that's right i think that it's gotten way bigger than everyone anticipated it's beyond just the little streamer in his garage trying to make it but i will say this i'll say like for this argument i would not use it's gotten big right because to me it immediately makes me say ah y'all just greedy no what i mean is that it's gone you just want the buddy that's somebody no it's gotten very official is what i'm saying it's gotten a it's an official industry with official rules and they're respecting music uh but not respecting game developers which is their whole i whole thing they're they're they're complete they're worried about two minutes of music streaming while they're playing but like they spent eight hours like uh playing without asking any permission from anybody or even taking that uh giving a second thought that that seems very backwards to me

and um and we talked we talked about why i feel it's different right so you know hey you know right i i think you know how it is i know i think in the end all right i'm not [ __ ] on streamers i think they are very essential uh we're far from arguing that fact right streaming is a part of games and will be forever and and in most cases eclipse uh playing games right and that's fine and i think it's very organic and and and it's only at the tip of the iceberg of uh where we're going to hit but my concern is when a brand like nike a multi-billion dollar tech companies are bypassing game developers like like these these competitions these esports are more respectable they're more official uh and they have been more official but

i feel like streaming has gone to that stage bypassed right most pro athletes even leave you know their pro pro teams to become dedicated streamers because it's more profitable and more more control right um i feel like the esport uh industry uh does a better job working with developers um and more and more and more like respectable and more mutual right now i think it's too one-sided and i if anything i just want it to be 50-50 in some regards especially if you have a facebook twitch or youtube as part of it's not just a a conversation between uh developer and streamer anymore right we're way past that fact i think because we're entering the stage where there's a third party which are backed by these basically these tech companies that it's official business now i i think you're saying you use the word backed very loosely

right but these these streamers are actually really just it's they're they're uber drivers right they're they're they're independent sure contractors 99.9 of streamers are not making money or making [ __ ] right or even the ones that are making money like like they're not like affiliate there's affiliate networks all that kind of stuff right sure sure they're us ufc fighters basically they don't get paid much but like we have to set a standard with the big streamers like all other creative endeavors it's like you start with the big ones to set the rules to figure out an ecosystem that helps everybody because imagine this right this is what happens right there's thousands of game developer studios and certainly you have to have a team that streams your game what does that mean then that means thousands of community manager has to be hired to stream exclusive content so these it helps them as well right the big streamers are going to benefit because they have an audience following but the the the the people who are good at streaming that don't have an audience

finally have a job placement at these game companies to speak about games and content you know what happens with this right you know it ends up being it turns into hollywood right and then so now every time you go to twitch there's like there's like the the six streamers for the six different video game companies streaming and then yeah it's that becomes very corporate yes that's cool and then what about all the spotlight games that you never you heard about that some streamer just randomly streams and it becomes a super success where does that go i don't care about that because in a way these small games are finally getting financed because uh facebook gaming well think about it if suddenly facebook gaming uh facebook game stream i don't know what they call gaming right they have their own game streaming you never heard of facebook game streaming they have their whole game it's like youtube stream enough people use it i mean they're

going pretty hard with it right a lot of mixer community went over facebook streaming right yeah let me tell you this right this is a scenario i think works for other industries and i think it's it's a relatively easy jump uh for us facebook streaming youtube streaming twitch streaming now that they have to pay for third party content at first right because they're not going to suddenly turn into naughty dog they're not going to suddenly turn into it's hard right they have to either start creating their own content so that they own the rights to stream on their platforms and what happens acquisitions smaller developers encouragement for single player experiences right that's i see that route being a safer and benefiting for all type of thing like game developers have to be able to finance games and i think right now there's a model here that's kind of destroying certain type of games being made because we

have given up the rights right and is netflix so bad right now like netflix is financing games and finding homes to these movies i mean uh that wouldn't have not been financed because of marvel dominating the box office right like are we are we in the heyday are we be is the movie industry worse than 10 years ago or better now right i think everyone can agree the movies that are being made are better now shows and and projects are being more financed more than ever because not only netflix realize this model apple amazon all these streaming services are fine apple plus right are buying up and financing these movies from thousands of artists right i would i would say that that i would say in this situation the content creators are thriving the consumers are getting the shaft for for the movies or the games sorry

for the move for the movies right and and if you go that way with games it will be the same you think consumer you as a consumer are not enjoying the content that you're you're finding but then i gotta jump between 100 different sources of getting that content and i i gotta worry about not really owning the content and i gotta you know i'll vlog into netflix tomorrow and and the show i told somebody about a show that they should watch the effects that they log in tomorrow and the show is gone uh you know and it's like all sorts of food like there's all sorts of there's an inconvenience things i do not like about the whole streaming thing there's the convenience is fantastic and not having to own anything is that is a good thing but it's also the bad part of it and how everybody's being so greedy and saying no it's mine right uh it's fracturing the thing and i gotta go to five or six different apps to watch anything um it's that's

uh that's inconvenient for me right so yeah but in the end there's more movies being made though like movies that would have been kind of axed like lincoln you know spielberg right the story behind that the the greatest filmmaker of all time had the hardest time financing lincoln academy award martin scorsese as well same thing right so the other guy alfonso whatever his name is yeah i think again to quote you right the uh the gains overcome the losses in my opinion because right now i feel like even though i feel like the losses are there like i i i don't i don't feel the devs uh are are thriving in this state right now i feel like we're struggling harder uh i don't know i don't know if i even agree with that oh man man it's so much harder for people to get their games financed now because there's only certain amount of games that gets financed

and they're kind of left on in their own devices right thousands of games get released on steam and they have no chance out there right so financing it becomes uh and it is still a major issue within the game but i mean we said this we said this when free to play start becoming a thing more a thing we're like oh i can't get a game that it's not a free to play game financed anymore right that's untrue you could get tons of non-free to play games finance still right um and then like this every time there's a wave that comes there's always some like oh well that's over for us in this wave now like like pc gaming is dead free to play is corrupting consoles and pc gaming now like it's just a constant trend of people like um with the doom and gloom and every time the the video game industry is still here and still doing the things that people said were dead right yeah i mean i'm like i i don't argue the

fact that we're adaptable and we're survivors and we will figure it out and with streaming and with streaming and one of the ways we have adapted is we've embraced it right and we've we and all the things you say about seasonal content season control like people are doing that you know at least the big ones are doing it i gotta get it i think i think i would i would agree with you if it was a few years ago where you know these make it extreme websites are not such a major player anymore since they are now it's different it's not just developers because developers and streamers were on the same page they were on the same level right we're trying we're strugglers we're figuring this [ __ ] out together right it felt a lot more natural but now we have like big papa in the room kind of cheating papa is obi papa is is just a screen pop is just like hey i'm gonna give you the audience i'm gonna give you a platform and i'm gonna throw some ads up on that [ __ ] and i'm gonna get my piece

of the ads and then you're gonna get your piece of that without paying for anything that's the thing there's no downside like if i was in twitch shoes it's like yo i can if i paid no content right uh and and it's endless right developers are gonna keep creating these content and people just pay me on the other day there's something wrong to that man like you can't host something without paying for something right and that's the they pay for the infrastructure right stop man stop like if if you go too long if you go to a store right and he's like hey i paid for i paid for the the the building but all the [ __ ] in the store is your stuff it's like you know this is this is fk you you pay that landlord that rent though don't you you no i didn't i never told him to put my stuff in this store all right i never told him it was okay to display my stuff in your store and they never asked me if it was cool

right that's that's the equivalent of the scenario your actual equivalent of this scenario is i but dude i buy a bunch of stuff from you i then take all the stuff and i go to my landlord's store and i set up all my stuff in the store and then i sell the stuff that i bought from you in that store right do you see do you see kellogg's walking into that store and go why is my cereal in your store man i already paid you fool that's why it's first of all people reselling your stuff that isn't cool that's what gamestop is this is something they're selling it for profit they're like you sold it to them for two dollars they're selling it for four dollars a box like dude what let me like no no no no no no no no that doesn't work that doesn't matter it works that's how that metaphor doesn't work so stories work no well when i'm suddenly telling you like no no this is the equivalent of this right uh

it's a movie theater right it's a movie theater who bought a movie right and uh they're they they're they're making you pay at the door to go in and watch that movie and what you do is you pirate the [ __ ] movie right and you're you're displaying that movie right outside the theater all right and you're skipping this whole process of talking to the content creator uh and and working out this deal that makes sense because i feel like people are [ __ ] displaying and playing our movies right outside the theater without our that's that's the scenario that's happening and here's the thing and the people that see that movie i've seen the movie and they will not give you any money you are correct but for video games they see that video game they're like that shit's cool i want to go experience that and they go and they buy your video again no only for multiplayer that's the problem that's the problem with that scenario man only for multiplayer games it doesn't

have to be multiplayer games people been streaming spiders but yes but data shows that only certain games get that response if if all games get that response then yeah there's no argument here yeah cool let's do it right but the fact is and we can all agree streaming culture has killed genre of games being financed right now and we can't play or see those games or make those games anymore you're gonna get something you need to get a person that with with money on your show to talk about that part i feel like he's skeptical i'm highly skeptical that that is that is true ah highly skeptical yeah we come on we know for a fact that you want to make a gone home game you need more you're going to be difficult it's going to be difficult to get a gone home game finance well yeah well i i think it's going to be difficult to get any game financed these days period that's actually not true more people are investing more than ever

and they want to put park their money somewhere um wouldn't necessarily be in video games right but uh i don't know i i yeah like we disagree on this one but i'm just like i i think i i'm taking definitely the most unpopular opinion and i think in the end i'm not trying to kill the streaming soap culture i'm just trying to explore is people are so afraid that people things are going to change right for the worse and i don't think that's necessarily true where all parties can succeed right i think there is a middle ground more of a middle ground uh to kind of include the content creators in some way um that isn't just about the aftermath of a deal struck right and i think we're after the conversation when a deal is made and i i don't think that's that's cool i think we should be a part of this deal um if your whole business relies on

playing games and uh you don't think it's you know a concern for content creators or game creators to be a part of that conversation it's weird man it's like every industry shows that we that's not the way things are done hey brandon yeah when you make a game tell the streamers don't stream your game try to go out there and strike a deal with a streamer and say okay you can see my game if you pay me x and let me know how that works out for you i'm i'm more about the other side of the argument it's like hey guys i made a game i want to exclusively stream my own game none of y'all can stream it right and i don't have you could do that too no i can't the fact is people can stream whatever they want to stream because and then after them you have to be able to force it you can go after them you can go after them and say don't shoot my game yeah but it's like what is it 1984

right there's the whole society thinks one way already and suddenly like i sound like the bad guy on this episode right so what's gonna happen is they're gonna jump on your your little exclusive stream and so many people are gonna tell you how much your game sucks because [Laughter] which is completely fine you'll get swollen i stand if i put out something i'll stand by all the stupid stuff what happened to you sure but that's that's that's still dumb it's ant if that's the response for someone saying like hey i i have a right to the way i market my game and suddenly you're the bad guy that that thinking is already anti-game developer right moral the moral the moral story is brandon does not work at stadia [Music] i don't care i don't care what happens in studio oh my camera keeps down uh but um

but yeah i mean that that's pretty much it we went longer than now i i definitely want to know that's of course you brought up a lot of good points and i think the sentiment is is pretty uh reciprocated throughout the uh streaming world right i i don't think people want to of course the street people's overall feeling is that this is a good thing and it's let's not break what's not broken i'm feeling like well i mean there are 50 things broken and i i feel like i feel like there is something there i i think if the response was a lot more if everything was a lot more mutual right uh would have been fine but like the the polarity of like how people are reacting to this like suddenly i'm saying something that is so foreign in thought uh it kind of kind of irks me a bit it's like hold on dude you just named every other industry that does this and suddenly when i talk about a game creator's rights you're not

for it i i just feel like we're too having that issue where game creators are not really being protected and we can't protect ourselves right and that's why it's just like oh here is another one is another another part of the industry that's benefiting that's not game developers uh the the biggest part of the pie is what i'm saying so i guess these this is my life-changing bonus if if your follower somehow likes what you're streaming and maybe click through and buy my game thanks for the crumbs is is my attitude it's like i'm always eating the crumbs it's like come on man there's something here that we can work out you're you're pocket watching that's what this is this is sound like this sounds like envy sounds like tv you can't

sell my [ __ ] in your store without my permission so that that's all i'm saying man you can't do that and you can't and you can't you know co-sign with facebook to sell my [ __ ] in your store this is that's bizarre it's just bizarre to me uh it doesn't work like that but somehow it is so anyways i want to thank you ray as always this is an earlier round table more than usual um i think it might be one of our last ones because after thanksgiving i'm taking a month off so oh nice yeah man well hopefully nothing crazy pops up but you need to take yeah you need to take that time off i i totally support that no seriously i thought you're saying like i'm ranting too much oh yeah you definitely need it after this after this uh this one but uh but for sure uh definitely take the time spend time

with family for sure of course we'll figure it out [Music] i don't think alex is gonna make a change i don't think the streaming world but a part of me wants to have youtube streaming twitch to kind of take a bit more responsibility and stuff so i mean that's right now they're yeah right now they're not clownish behavior to be working at student stadium okay last thing i'll say one last thing right if netflix can stream all of nbc's content without paying any exclusive rights people will be upset that's what twitch is doing what's the difference all right i don't see a difference anyways i don't know i have the last day but yeah uh of course you're the good guy so you can end it with that right i'm the bad guy in this but as always

hit us up uh you can find ray let me throw your [ __ ] up here um real quick before i move off uh as always uh guys you can find us on twitter if you want to have your own opinions of anything that we said again all our opinions reflect our own and none of our companies uh you can also join me in the discord i i rant uh occasionally here but i ran a lot with the discord so you want to have these off off-air conversations a lot of those like we i had i went in pretty big with discord uh talking about this stuff and yeah and you know it's pretty split even though i think it's more heavily lean towards uh four streamers uh the fourth day of argument which which was that in industry dirt industry dirt i think it was game talk one of those yeah there was a long

string uh of stuff so uh yeah so so naturally guys um i want to hear your opinions i am very curious what what the overall sentiment is i can't be alone on this [Laughter] right so i i want to hear your guys's opinion and and so forth so um as always uh nice to have you on ray and uh enjoy your holidays if i don't see you again yeah bro for sure i'm definitely taking some time off as well so we'll be cooking oh thanks for having some more all right thanks for having me bro thanks for having me [Music] you