From Drumming to Downloads: Why ASO Is All About Discipline

uh store page to function properly and to be functional as I mentioned in the intro section. Uh it should mirror what's happening in the app itself. Uh if that's not working uh you're getting less revenue, you're losing users. Uh it's not working as expected. So,
hello world. Welcome to the Pocket Gamer Podcast with your hosts, me, Brian Baglo, and the OG of optimization, Miss Peggy Ansults. Hello, Peggy. Good to see you.
Good to see you as well, Brian. And here we are back in 2026, another year of the PocketGamer.biz podcast. and another year if you're out there to say to yourself, New Year's resolutions. Um, what's yours, by the way, Brian?
I've already achieved mine. Mine was to finish this big piece of game strategy

I've been writing for the Scottish government
and uh I did I finished it on Monday and I'm launching it next Wednesday. So,
everything else this year is just golden as far as I'm concerned. Um, it's been two years. It's been a huge slog, massive piece of work. Um, so you know, all the other stuff, quitting drinking, walking away from my desk, getting out in the sunshine, playing with the dog, teaching my nine-year-old to code, that's those aren't resolutions. Those are just my time off. So, um, yeah, it should be an interesting year.
I I am so impressed. And actually, I mean, I've seen this on social. I want to say first of all, I admire what you're doing for the ecosystem, and we need to bring that into the show as well. But we will be meeting um at Pocket Gamer London and we can chat about that at PGC London, what you're doing and what's next. I'm thinking about New Year's resolutions for our audience as well. And some of them are probably saying, you know what, number one, do not leave money on the table.

That's a big one. And the way you do that is by paying attention to organic growth and ASO. And that's what our guest is here to do because he's going to give us a bit of a master class, a little bit also for those of you just starting because I think that's important. And we applaud you if you're doing this because do not leave money on the table is a biggie. Is a biggie when everything is the state of change that it is. You know, what you're not getting more of this year is budget. So, let's get to it. Brian and our guest in addition to being an ASO and organic growth expert also a publisher he's been building these functions inside companies like TiltingPoint Fabulous and most recently Fun Plus. Now he works as a consultant helping studios. So I originally met him at Games Forum Barcelona 2025 and then he was at that point responsible for setting up ASO as

a discipline at Fun Plus and then I met him again UA society in London and a third time is always a charm. I said, "Got to have him here." And a little bit of a fun fact, he's also a drummer in a metal band. But it's not so much a fun fact because he's going to show us through the lens of drumming how you can achieve the same discipline in music. Well, you need it in ASO. So, here we are. No hacks, all discipline, the real deal. Yehen Cher Shenko, great to have you here. And uh yeah, great that you could make it.
Hey, thanks for having me. Super happy to be here and hope to bring some value.
I'm sure you will.
It's one of these topics that um I know that we've discussed on the podcast many times before. Before we kick off the event, I'm going to ask you about your background and how you got into ASO. Can you define ASO for our listeners and

anyone out there who's not familiar with what it is you're doing?
Sure. uh ASO is apps optimization is a discipline in the field of mobile marketing that is mostly responsible for making sure that your presence on the app store and Google play store and all the alternative stores is good. Uh you attract users, users convert and more importantly when users download the app they see what they expect and they're satisfied.
Perfect. a masterful summary. So, so tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you how did you come into the sort of the the realm of of ASO and does it have anything to do with drumming or are the two very separate?
Uh in terms of timeline it was more or less yeah on the same time. Uh in terms of functions at the beginning it was very different for me. I started doing ASO in 2013 where there was no tools. It

was wild west. It was very hard to figure out any help, any best practices. It was no community. So, a lot of experimentation and a lot of trial and error.
Mhm.
Because I was working full-time and then jumping on rehearsals with my band a couple times a week for quite a few years. I then realized that there are some parallels. First of all, you need to show up consistently. Uh you work under pressure and as a drummer uh and as a key function in the growth mix, uh you need to be a stable foundation uh in order to make things happen reliably.
Studying drumming books is only going to take you so far. So that's a a fantastic introduction. Thank you. Um, and Peggy, I believe we're doing something a little different. You mentioned a master class.
Yeah, it is a master class. I was just thinking also back to his parallel, you

know, I mean, everything dependent depends on the beat. You know, the drummer leads. This is also the pressure in a sense of leading the team in ASO and helping them identify and understand and also be able to translate this value to uh sea level. So there's a lot on you and I thought let's break it down into four rules right because looking at organic growth there are parallels that we'll be working on and make this fun. It has to be educational and edgy um fun and useful. So we'll dive in. Rule number one, treat the store like a live channel. And and we've talked about this. We've talked about how difficult discoverability has become. I mean it's obvious there's a new change in ASO nearly every day and then we have the constant of signal loss and paid is just

harder to scale effectively and efficiently. So if you look at something like your your studio and how they're looking at the store presence, they say, you know, one and done and it feels like it's something that needs to be fixed every so often, but really what you're saying is run it like a live store. So that's your first rule. But tell us what it means to treat a store like a live channel, not a static shelf.
Right. Great question and a great parallel. And so for the store uh store store page to function properly and to be functional as I mentioned in the intro section uh it should mirror what's happening in the app itself. Uh if that's not working uh you're getting less revenue, you're losing users. uh

it's not working as expected. So that should be constant work because UA changes, product changes, you have to keep up. Right.
Right.
And the important distinction here is uh obviously there are small studios and developers and there are big ones. So if you're a small developer then you should cover the small basics to make sure you look great, you rank where you want to more or less.
Mhm. And then uh as a cherry on top you should use the latest features provided by the stores uh with great example being here the iOS 26 update
was a huge update on the facelift basically with all the new design rules and many of the apps even the small ones that uh kept up with that uh they get millions of incremental views or featurings. or other brownie points from Apple for keeping up with the trends or

following the guide book. So that's my advice for the smaller teams. And for the bigger teams, you have more resources. You should be on top of everything that is going on. There's quite a few frameworks that you can look up. One great framework is feature that they released a while ago and they keep this updated more or less. uh follow everything and then uh focus on the bigger impact and on the relationships with the stores on getting featured on Verizon.
How did that impact um games and apps on the uh on the store and um for smaller teams out there who maybe don't have the resources to stay on top of absolutely everything, what are the sort of the key things they should be paying attention to for s something along you know these major updates? Obviously a good uh visual uplift on the front
but on the back also a lot of things

happened and we recently had a uh round table uh during the business of apps Berlin covering those changes and I know about at least eight. So those are organic custom product pages where you can uh run product pages by not using uh any UA just by putting in some keywords and hoping that you will rank for those app store tag obviously liquid glass redesign of the app elements to make sure you're with everyone on that uh Apple games app which is super important. Uh the impact is debatable but is probably here to stay. So we should keep an eye on that on how it evolves and how the game is actually represented on the store.
Mhm.
If it's good,
don't forget about that. Uh doubled capacity of the custom product pages now up to 70 is a great tool to diversify

your channels, your approach to play around with
with that. Maybe not for all the small teams, but definitely something to keep an eye on. uh independent release tracks that is more relevant for agile teams, smaller teams because previously you had to submit the let's say screenshot test that you approved
or in up event with the release. Now you can do that independently.
Okay.
So it can go to the store tomorrow today tomorrow.
Cool. And um there were some other things connected with the uh keyword visibility and how the algorithm tracks the overall semantics of the page and the web version of the app store. Of course, that changed how how are you displayed on the web and you should also be aware

of
that.
For developers out there who who are very early in this journey or who haven't taken their first steps, where where do you find this kind of information? What do they need to be tracking to make sure that they're aware of what's coming up? Well, definitely official channels, the blogs on Apple and Google and obviously the thought leaders on LinkedIn and other platforms.
A lot of people share this information and they make it more digestible for you because the official language of the official releases on Apple and Google is not always easy to understand or fun to read. So there are quite a few professionals that you got you covered on this.
Excellent. So So I I think what we should do, Peggy, is is point people towards Juven's LinkedIn page.
Yeah,
that's that's the subtext I'm I'm

definitely getting.
I am I am one of those people. Yeah, I'm doing my best
and I'm communicating with also a lot of great professionals. And speaking of that, you know, a studio who wants to get this right over the next quarter, um, they have to change what they're doing. What's the first thing you'd expect them or want them to change? Because, for example, custom product pages, that's going to be huge. Granted, you can't do tests for 70. That's 70 of them. But it's more and more, you know, the right page for the right player type or segment. So, you're able to do a lot of testing and hopefully when you test, you get a lot more right than wrong. So, again, what do they need to do?
I want to see a solid robust road map when we're talking about organics. Uh what I mean by that is yes you need to be always on and you need to know

what's your next step. It it it doesn't have to be chaotic. It should be very structured and to the point with clear goals and KPIs
and they can come to you for that I'm assuming hen because
sure ASO that's a tough one to make the match you have to know what you're going to aim for in order to achieve it and I think that brings us to rule two that we touched upon just a little bit it's building that always on system not oneoff gigs right because if it's live and the store presence is constantly changing, constantly evolving. Then the question is how are teams going to organize around it? So you're in a band and it's similar. So what is that rule about systems over one-off gigs?
If you're talking about music, people often think that a band or a singer, they release an album and that's it,

right?
Mhm. which is not the case because there's touring, there's press, there's socials, there's all kinds of podcasts, visibility, even if they're not doing that and there live musicians playing the actual instrument, you you have to keep playing the instrument between the the albums because otherwise it deteriorates very quickly. We need to be always on the loop on the run and the same with organics. uh we were talking that sometimes it's hard to justify the value. It is not hard to justify the value if you're constantly delivering results, right? So if you decided to update the keywords once in a six months might work, might not work doesn't know there's a lot of competition. There's a lot of changes with the algorithm.
Mhm. Uh but if you're doing this consistently and you're doing testing and you're doing inapp events and you're doing custom product pages and you're

educating other stakeholders, other departments about what's going on, uh then 100% you will get some value.
So when we're talking about always on again I'm thinking about resources within developers. Not everybody has a dedicated um ASO sort of expert on on hand. So, how does how how would a team actually put this into practice? You know, do you how do you balance that long-term discipline but with the need for those quick wins on an ongoing basis? Yeah, definitely the discipline should be there
and the the quick wins or the big victories that should also be part of the mix, but they should be planned out, not just a what's the expression uh throw something at the wall and hope it sticks.

Uh yeah, uh it should be planned. So you should be talking to your adjusting departments and you have to be friends with those departments uh to make sure your creatives are updated for Q5, for Christmas, for Halloween.
Uh for that you need the creative team to be available and they should know that you're planning this so they could put it on their road map and not do it on a Friday night or whatever.
Uh yes. So close communication and uh good uh sturdy KPIs that uh deliver on let's say installs and revenue uh and close communication with other departments uh amount to also big wins when they're planned. Mhm.
I was also thinking about that constant always on. I mean, if you think about

it, what is always on? You know, we sleep, we need we need to have our breaks. And that's why it probably also makes sense to be looking out at the help and the tools that are AI powered or, you know, I mean, you just can't do marketing without AI in 2026. Is there something in the discipline here about also a new discipline or a new way of working with AI to make this happen?
Oh yeah, there's a lot of stuff and it ranges again for I think different teams, different studios of different size and capabilities. We can go from something very basic
like just having a good framework of dialogues or spaces within your AI tool and robust prompting. I recently posted something about it. How to automate your ASO

process up to 40%.
Oh,
it's on my LinkedIn on my Substack. Yeah, feel free to check that out.
Very easy to implement. I I do it I did it for myself. I just described this in the blog uh to put my thoughts together and to make it useful for other people who were asking me about it. um super basic uh but there's also tools and systems again by app tweak that I know of by split matrix by feature by other big companies that offer you one or the other way to automate your process and get good results at scale and there's tools popping up constantly not only for ASO but uh for the whole market in mix in general because it's a measurement is a nightmare as we all know and there's quite a few companies that trying to solve that issue right

now. So keep an eye out on that. And I think in general by by being in the loop, by being in the know of the latest developments, you can just cut down drastically on the pains you've been feeling for last couple of years. I guess starting with the depreciation of IDFA,
those things. So in a way it's almost uh good to be starting over and not feeling late because there are these tools that weren't there before. I mean 40% automation that's that's that's a win, Brian.
It it absolutely is Peggy and and what I'm hearing here is it's you're consistently coming back to you've got to be looking ahead, you've got to be planning. You've got to make sure that you're aware of what's ahead of you because otherwise
all you're capable of doing is reacting, you know, and you we we hear this so often is that

this is no longer a just a marketing problem. It's no longer just a single team problem. This is something that the entire studio, the entire company has to pull together in order to be able to deliver. Is that is that kind of true? We just 100%. So, uh, organics and ASO doesn't work in isolation.
Mhm.
And obviously, but some people think it does, but that's not the way the proper way to do this. As we just said, uh, different teams should should work in synergy and be friends with each other. Typical typical example of uh the workflow in the studio is that creative build assets for page
and product ships features to the to the game but
they do not tell it about about these

features to anyone else. There's no maybe maybe there's a press release, maybe there's something out there. But
what you can do for free relatively quickly and increase your impressions, possibly get featured, increase DA use, increase revenue is to create an inapp or promotional content on Google Play.
Yeah.
And tell millions of users about your new and exciting event that is happening in the game. Yeah.
And imagine if you do this more than once.
Yeah.
It's about sharing it, sharing it properly because you do have a community and you need to keep them informed because they will get excited about that and explore the new features. And that brings me, I think, really well to rule number three here, which is make product, marketing, and creative play the same song. That's what we're talking about here. You know, there's alignment.

There's a need to be playing the same song and carrying the same rhythm. Where do you see that fall apart most often? Yhen, because you just said yourself it can't be done in isolation, but it often still is.
The quickest answer is teams do not talk to each other. I don't know why,
but
yeah,
maybe this podcast is your sign for 2026 to start talking
to your G8 people, to your creative people, to your product people, to your stakeholders. Maybe give your CMO an idea to pull everyone together and discuss the road maps and align them and see what everyone else is doing and maybe contribute to that or at least know about their capacity and about their plans.

So true.
This is super super obvious, super easy advice. Some people will probably cringe at this, but
based on my experience, so many teams do not talk and they do not deliver the message across like this is what we're doing. This is what we're trying to achieve. Let's synchronize on this. Let's work as one team.
It it makes so much sense. you know, if you're building a cool new feature into your game, if you're updating something, you're fixing a bug even or, you know, why not communicate it? Why not make it the basis of, you know, really good news stories? But I I've worked with developers for so many years and and it's so common um to this very day that that you know the development team just simply wouldn't think of telling marketing about something that they might think is mundane but they could get users get players really excited. So I I'm with you 100%. Um

but when teams do communicate and when they actually get this right what changes within the organic performance that that you find people tend to underestimate.
A quick counterpoint one of the reasons why this is not happening because every vertical has their own KPIs and they care about those KPIs rightfully so.
Yes.
Right. like if I'm talking to someone else, how does it contribute to to my work to my deliverables?
But it actually does and on the company level again if the stakeholders are educated people who are responsible for those KPIs they will see the value because
this will work as a band right?
Yeah.
Yeah. So you will work towards the same goal anyway increasing your visibility increasing your market share the revenue and at the end that that pays off.
So

this is the tough one that I always hear when I'm speaking with marketers and it's basically you know the creative team they're building assets they have to meet specific KPIs and it's mostly about paid performance. So what is it that you can tell them you know this team listening in and the team you know the entire studio that says yes it is about paid performance but it is also equally um about the user experience and can boost ASO can boost the organic to to get creative to think more broadly and to let the company incentivize them differently. Uh good point. Also a very hard point to communicate and break through usually
because yeah we have a finite budget, finite amount of time of human resources

that can deliver this many creatives. And why should we bother about organics or whatever? It's there. It's we have screenshots. What more do you want? Right.
Yeah. But you can look at couple of things here. Um first of all, how's your conversion doing? Uh according to the benchmarks, according to the competition, uh according to your own funnel, which is also very important, are you satisfied with that? In most cases, you shouldn't be satisfied. There's always room for improvement. Uh if you have something in the backlog, if you have previous wins in the backlog, you can showcase those and explain that if we do this successful iteration, we have a possibility to improve our conversion rate by X amount or creative team also is involved with custom product pages and in app events. So there are specific benchmarks and

KPIs that you can uh bring as an example for improving the situation by a lot. Uh if you have previous experience, great. If you have previous results, that's awesome. If you don't just take the uh benchmarks, the category average, the competitor benchmarks, your own expectations, your own experience like can this be more uh impactful, can this be more attractive.
Mhm. and then build a model and show it to the stakeholders and tell them that uh if we do this over this time frame we think we can achieve this number of installs or increase revenue by this much
and it's important to understand
which brings us to rule number four I couldn't better segue because it's all about measuring and rule number four
measure incrementality and solo your track so it's a rule cool about

measurement. We're not necessarily drummers and into music or metal. So, explain that parallel to start.
Okay. Uh yeah, by following your track uh I mean uh well during the recording uh everyone records uh their own parts normal.
Mhm.
Uh it's better for production. It's better for clarity of the sound. Sometimes you can mix and match some things in a better way.
Uh but yeah, overall you you see you you hear the whole song right at the end,
right?
Mhm.
Uh in marketing you also uh hear the whole song or you see the overall amount of installs. And a lot of marketers they they report total organic installs like we have this

amount of installs or we have x amount of percent more or less than the previous month.
Mhm. But what's missing here is the uh uh established baseline and how much did we contribute on top of what was already going on and what would have been achieved without the uh organic function. Right.
Mhm.
So it is important when reporting something to establish the baseline and then show the incremental lift on top of that. I did this during this time frame and this is by how much we increased the organics
or if you're talking about conversion rate it impacts it's very important to remember that conversion rate impacts the overall conversion rate of the whole funnel. So user sees the ad or user user comes from a source to the store page. There are no options with the uh

alternative stores and
all kinds of things that are trying to survive uh in 2025 and 2026 but 95 at least percent of users are landing on a store page and they convert or do not convert there and go further down the funnel. So the way you impact the funnel with the conversion and then retention is super important and this is your solo track. This is your impact here. Yes. So if you are able to single that out to show your specific impact in terms of conversion the loans revenue according to your calculations compared to the baseline then yeah you're golden. That makes sense. Yeah I I I can see you entirely pushed. If you if you don't know what would have happened without

your work nobody's going to credit you. Let's make that practical. Um you've recommended a baseline versus initiative measurement. Can you walk us through that you know simply for for um for the listeners please?
Okay. Yeah, sure. Uh so to to create a baseline you should define a normal amount of things you're measuring in your key markets in your key geos. uh ideally over the 30 days but uh this is the perfect scenario where nothing changed for me longer amount of time usually doesn't happen. So it's okay to take shorter periods uh like 14 days 7 days but make sure that uh they more or less are replicated throughout longer period of time. So we see this baseline of this number

within six months but in huge chunks not inter you know what I'm saying yeah so that's your baseline and then you do something you see the impact and you calculate that impact by uh let's say it's downloads and you want to see the revenue you take those downloads from the console and then you you have to cross reference with the NMP or any other source that let's say PGA is using.
Mhm.
And stakeholders are familiar with and you have the organics there, right? Organics is everything that is not pay
right.
Uh so your your numbers from the console should match the numbers from MMP roughly.
Mhm. uh and then you multiply that by R4U or the altitude

could be cohorted uh could be straight depending on your monetization model. Ask your fellow data scientists what's the best approach and yeah you get the incremental revenue
clean clean incremental revenue that you can report and you can tell your boss uh whoever that is that over this period of time we brought this amount of installs that converted into this amount of revenue.
Yeah. Again it makes sense you have to show your work.
Yeah. and show it cleanly. I think that's a real important point here. I haven't heard it explained that well, Yan. So, I can see why um why people come to you for what they have because that is very even I got it. So that's something um one say I can be a consultant but I understand now better what you do and we want to swing out now

that we've done the rules and talk about some takeaways for our audience you know because they've probably been
studying this um taking notes putting the transcript through AI whatever but if they're listening in and they want to take organic growth very seriously this year because that's the point of these rules and you're a small team can't do everything. Is there something here that they can say I'll do that later or I can skip this because they need to focus. We gave them four rules. What's one they can skip?
That would be probably rule number two.
Just doing one off a one off one gig and then disappearing for 6 months.
This is not how it should work. But yeah, hopefully in the context of things that I explained, it is pretty obvious that you you should work as a machine, as a band. You should need to be consistent.

It makes sense. Yeah, it's with everything changing so quickly around you, you know, you can't afford to just fire, forget, and then go on holiday.
Um,
yeah, it doesn't make sense.
And and yeah, I I I absolutely agree. One very very last thing is there anything out there that you see people doing that's now just so outdated or just you know old-fashioned that they should just stop immediately? It is sort of a meme in the organic growth community but uh the keywords everyone's debating on whether you should work with keywords whether you should update keywords where you should try to be number one for streaming service or something like this
and you probably shouldn't uh so the way the algorithm changed on both Google and especially is last year.
Mhm.
Uh it pays more attention to the holistic semantic understanding of your

listing
like where does it belong? What does it do?
Who are the competitors? What's the category? You know, what's the bubble for for your app or game?
Mhm.
Uh yeah. And you should aim for that. You should not aim for specific keywords doing keyword stuffing mentioning best puzzle game 2026 50 times in your description. No.
Yeah.
You should aim for users for conversion rate, for readability, and for the machine to understand what is the game about, where does it belong, what what to expect from it.
That's the best approach. I'm glad to hear that because there's nothing worse than reading some of these descriptions
and it's so obvious and so confusing. So now the algorithm is going to want them to be readable and understandable and not just a bunch bunch of buzzwords. So

that's good news for us as uh as players. Brian,
absolutely.
Also, absolutely.
People [clears throat] should be paying attention to localizations. So, how you localize and if you're actually using the terms that people use to search, not just copy your English and throw it into Google Translate and put it on the store.
We could go on, but if sadly we've run out of time. So, uh, thank you so much. It has been information dense. I think you would agree, Peggy.
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so pleased that you are out there sharing this, Evan. We'll have that in the show notes as well where your blog is. And I know I'm following you on LinkedIn anyway, but um it's helpful because it's moving so fast. You know, you're not going to learn this anywhere else. You're going to learn it from what you're sharing. So, great that you are.
Thanks for having me.
Appreciate.
Thank you. One of my 20.6 resolutions

was to be an educator and change people's opinion on what is organic growth and how it functions and what's the value. So, thank you so much for providing me the opportunity to talk about it.
You are very welcome and I would say you're you're kicking off the year um very proactively and and very well. So, we would love to have you back on. I think the localization idea is it has uh a lot of legs.
Yes.
So, we will see what we can do maybe before the end of the year, help you double up on your New Year's resolutions. But before we let you go, we have a couple of questions that we ask all of our guests. The first is, what are you playing right now? What games on your phone? What you spending a little bit more time on than you possibly should be? And then the second one is, what's your favorite game of all time?
The hardest questions on the podcast.
Oh, yes.

I'm specifically trying to get the latest or one of the latest models of the phones because gaming on the phone is getting serious and I've been trying out all of the different AAA games like Test Trending running on an iPhone.
Uh I've played Resident Evil. I've played Reckfest which is an older game but runs perfectly. I've played quite a few games on my mobile device and with USBC you can now connect them to the monitor and use a controller and it's basically a console.
Mhm.
Super exciting.
But the most hours I've put into Gran Turismo 7 on PlayStation by using my VR headset which is just amazing. I'm huge VR enthusiasts. have completed more than dozen games over the last couple of years.
Wow.
And Jag Gran Tourism is honestly

mind-blowing in terms of immersion, in terms of amount of content is is super cool. And as for the favorite game of all time, uh I guess a bit of a spoiler here, this is Alan Wake 2. I'm not saying this specific game is is top five 100%. But in general, what Dram does is very close to my heart and I've played all of the games at least twice or three times or four times.
So, I'm a huge fan uh of what Remedy is doing in general.
Very good. Very strong choices.
Solid choices.
Thank you.
Well, well, this was great. And it is a date then we will come back. We will have localization. Um and in the meantime as I said in the show notes all about your blog and yes we now have two New Year's resolutions sorted. Brian

yours with your strategy. I can't wait to hear more about it and I hope that you will bring some of that to the show as well. And Yavan again such a pleasure. Thank you both.
Thank you very much.
Always a joy.
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