Estela Dos Santos Rocha And Aman Sareen On Savvy Strategies For Leaner Teams

[Music] hello I'm Peggy and saltz Brian Bago is back in the office I am here at now and doing podcasts for us of course for pocketgamer.biz we've done some episodes today and we're winding down the day with an interesting look at a company that I've been watching for a while but we haven't had a chance to catch up Estella do Santos Roa you are I would say head of UA at kazus games and have a number of responsibilities now because UA is very different are you just now UA or is it also becoming more about player life cycle management retention the full the

full stack the full cycle we have uh games in different life cycle so for mature games of course we are looking more engagement and retention so it's not just acquiring users anymore but of course we have soft launch games that we need to focus poly in U way so that's it so and also creatives are very important in both stage just in matur stage that we need to engage users and also acquire user because we need the to have the correct uh chat with the user because they are in different moments of the life cycle any want to get more out of the games that you have so you have some in soft launch and you have others where you just want to get more value from them they've already proven themselves and uh you want to get more from them how are you going about that I mean how are you focusing

on managing user acquisition across such a broad portfolio company made a decision to focus on four or five games and we have a bunch of games I think like fre titles yeah yeah a bunch of games so we don't have enough arms to keep an update all of them so we choose our favorite kids to keep update and invest in U way in UA we don't have our favorite kid as I said and the one who has the best return on ad span is the one who get the biggest budget so that's it that's the contest yeah that's a contest how how do you win that contest it's harder than ever have you have you have you managed we have um a budget actually monthly we saw which game performed better and

the last month uhhuh and we separate that budget for that game and the percentage for other and other another another another but in the middle of the month could happen that some game just go shine as a St so I just move budget across that how's it set up I mean because some studios it's like you're going to cover channels and they do it by channels other Studios do it by games it's like this is your game here's your budget you do everything so I have a team so I split my team between games not channels okay because they have the flexibility to change the budget across networks to channels uh in terms of Return of AD spent MH and I'm the one who said okay you were with that game but that game is not too good so your colleague should have a biger vage because his campaigns don't go in better than your in that

metric stays for you Raz or is it the payback period is also really important is also really important because we ad Bas it so exactly yeah it it's tough here because we have a lower LTV comparing to an app purchase at a game Soh it make harder so it's Raz but then yeah it's a little bit of a blended metric really uhhuh in terms of H us uh for at b game we expect a a break given for after six seven one year yeah so yeah time skilles changed a little bit it was uh a little bit quicker before what do you do to keep patient yeah I used to work on retail apps before join games and it was completely different they they used to

have the metric right away okay if doesn't work right now it won't work so and when I joined the game company it was okay it won't pay itself tomorrow or next next week you may be waiting for a month two and I was oh my God I can't believe that how long how how you can profit with that it's crazy but it really happens yeah and I have to be more patient but are more ways to do it because at least in this case you're not worrying so much about purchases you don't have to look for whales but you look for a different type of whale you look for a whale who's going to spend attention in your game so what are the characteristics of these yeah attention whales the ones who are going to spend the most time because they're going to see the most ads they're going to monetize the best time is money yeah H takes most is the our ad wayo actually because any signs of what that is though

because now through Ai and modeling and everything you can get like a feel for that segment not just a f we actually stood deeply with our well you've studied it yeah our data so we can manage that early signus that the user can stick in the game for a longer time so understand if your user achieves certain events in the app yeah in a certain period the user probably could stick longer in the app okay have that changed what those events are the signs the signs of the attention whale yes yes definitely we have games that we completely figured out and is they are doing amazing in the game we are still trying to find that sweet spot but we we're prob can't ask you what it is but can I ask you what it is not because again our audience wants to learn from our guests and we want to help them at least we can't give them all the answers but we can help them f their resources

and say look at least don't worry about this group or this pre- indicator isn't really an indicator because you found out yeah I think there is no uh formula there is no such thing that I can say to you oh go look at that metric there is no such thing but definitely you need to know your game so my game casual yeah my game is a casual game card game board game we monetized through ads yeah so the user need to stick in the game for a longer time so what means that the user need to play more yeah matches because I show ads between matches so that's it so for us it's like a count of match matches and after some days at TH stall and I do a lot of looking at the uh the player psychology you know you have to there's it got to be a sense of progression y a

sense of surprise never boredom so these are some rules I know some and I'm not even a marketer so these are some of them and you're saying yes so they must be right how do you show that because this has to also be a simple game a mechanic one that you can dip in and out of you got a great mechanic otherwise they wouldn't be there but again that constant nurturing and staying in the game uh requires something what what is it that you appeal to the progression the competitiveness I think for each game is different but I think the competitive and the sense of progression as well because for our cash count uh we have the the rank so the users like to see the ranking up and also invite friends because they like to compete with their friends people they know so MH that's it do you use rewarded

in that to keep them in as well rewarded ads um you know that you like play more and then no actually earn more in the game stick around more we have rewarded videos you can double if you win something inside right and speaking of ads you've been in your ads how cool is that what is it you were in it and then used it and then sort of let AI take it to the next level or what is it or just Estella is in the ad no I am in the ad um cool we want some scene that we can find on sh talk or any imag talk yeah and my design say I want that kind of video that angle okay let's do it just me and you could be the our UA team but we are on the video even aen is on the video oh how cool yeah and his cat no no his cat's not no no it isn't you know cats cats are my dog is yeah your dog is okay the dog is the star see it and and

that works I've seen that so often in the earlier days of like how do I make really cool influencer videos it's like no make it yourself be Scrappy do it so I'm gonna see you I'm gonna see the whole team in the ad I gotta pull that pull that in and be you're gonna see my way manager you are going to see my designer on the ad even my CMO so that's it everyone is there andn is a force I have to say we we're we're thinking of yan we'll get him on here too at some point looking at uh the strategies you're using in marketing you know I mean you have a different type of Team what does that team look like you said yourself you have like five favorite games that you're taking care of I'm not sure how big your team is but how's that happen because we hear so much about well you've got to have UA and product and engineering and data science all got to sit together this has to be this amazing cross disciplinary team what's it look like for you yeah we have a very small so I I know that's how how do you stay

then the multi-disciplinary part of it so I have one guy that he actually very creative he has a design background so assigned to him the games that need more creative so he needs to pull more creatives inside to acquire users because the games are more in mature stage mhm and I have um analytical a more analytical guy that also helped me with ASO for that guy I signed more new games soft Lou games he's gonna help me CH analyze by very close the metric so both boys come with me and the creative guy also helped me to lead the design team because he has a design background and he ALS Al know you way so he he's able

to talk with design team to say okay this kind of creative converts better but designers has the difficulty to understand some UA metrics and since he he has he have been both sides he is the person who can translate that to the design team perfectly well that's really important and I mean with a small team because that's actually in directly a bit of a benefit because everyone knows a little bit of all of the jobs yeah so you have de facto you know a very cross-disciplinary team simply because everyone has to be hands- on deck yeah isn't me I need to manage then and also manage campaigns so let's stay on the whole idea of the successful titles okay and you want to keep them going but you also have to sort of reinvent them at some level what about keeping the existing

players attracting the new players sometimes there's some tension there because you want to show them a new type of gameplay I mean it's a casual game so it's not going to be changing it dramatically but still you have to take them with you get new ones you're in UA that's what you have to deal with how are you dealing with that quick experience um time ago we try to change the interface too much and the players felt that and we saw the retention drop so we understood that if you want to change something the game we need to do carefully yeah and slowly yeah at a time so the users can get used to not something brand new at once yeah so that's it we are trying to create new game flows to introduce an app purchase in the game because we are ad based so we are trying to create an app purch so

since the game it's not a brand new game I can't just put an that purchase in the game because I'm going to block the user flow yeah so I need to create a new flow in order to put a new economy on the game so we are going that way how's that progressing is that something that we're going to see soon because it's it's a process it it's working right now I think it already yeah it's it's on the way I think it's an AB test know if you download the game is going to have this new flow what do you have to pay attention to in the AB testing I'm talking to a lot of people about how that's really changed it was always constant but now it's uh it's doing it in a way that will still conserve time and money and you're sort of like using AB test to validate real Concepts not just like miniature points about the game but the actual is the game commercial is a commercial success expand it grow it it all comes

in the testing phase so it's very different Dynamic you don't look at miniature pieces any longer look at big chunks of strategy how's that going with you with AB testing is it evolving like that and therefore being a little bit in terms of UA we trying to support the product team when they want to create a new feature on the game mhm so we sit together and think what kind of users or type of users we should acquire or what what kind of users that we already have we are going to talk to so we go out from that conversation sit with our designer chin and start to create a concept of creatives or videos and go back and say okay we have this what do you think because they own the product

and we just support with the UA in this case to validate the the feature they aim to to launch so uh once all agree because they can choose the concept they can give the options but in the end we also run in UA and we know what going to yeah to success and doesn't go so which trying to to make a consense there and we run the campaigns and go back okay the bay creative it was better and the new creative with the new feature it was worse and we go back and try to understand what happened there so and if we need we go back with another test until we understand what happened if the feature it's a good thing or not for the game so you brought it up and I'll I'll I'll end on that note because everyone is more than a title and yes I was doing

a panel about women in Tech you're a woman in UA it's just about the same thing it's always important to think about the small steps the small lessons uh and we heard that on the panel that I did you know there are small things that lead to Great steps for for women in tech for women in UA what was the small step that you took um that had an impact on your career that maybe you can share because everyone is learning yeah and women in UA um they need to advance they need to reinvent themselves everyone does in UA but women in particular they're going to have to draw on something deeper than just ability you always have to compete on more is that than the woman yeah I think this m I took was I have a mentor my former boss and

she was trying to move to Paula yeah she was trying to move to product team and left in UA and okay I was trying to cover her and assuming a bunch of responsibility by myself and I wasn't thinking that I was doing enough and doing a great job until someone told me you did amazing job I think uh when I start to believe myself that I actually was doing a great job that I have the skills that I need to um I think the things start to happen that I feel more confident to do my work and just start to do better campaigns and better results I think that so it's really looking for and finding a mentor and uh and for you maybe with other women it's just that little bit of of feedback some positive feedback and understanding

that yes you're doing a good job you're making a solid and valuable contribution that's it last your colleague said just put a post on your computer and say you're amazing you're doing great yeah you're doing a very good impa in your company it's about that it's about positive thinking yeah now you are in a position where you have some friction some frustration you're a woman it's not it's not a barrier but it is something to always be positive and keep the energy High told me about what you're doing you know just just believing in yourself how do you maintain that I think I'm enthusiastic person and the people keep saying that I motivate myself because of that I think that's it and I TR I TR try to understand my team and I truly

try to assign them tasks they are able to do not things uh their skills are not compatible so I'm not going to do analytical job for a guy that not too analytical I'm not do a task too creative to a guy that's too analytic for so it so understanding your team yeah giving them what they can handle and also giving them the stretch goals that are important and there's a lot of stretch goals cuz you have other games coming out other things going on and uh quite quite a list of titles to manage you're doing it really well Estella I will tell you because you tell yourself that probably as well but I will say a big plus one thank you for sharing and above all because it's so important to understand what to do in the small and midsize Studios you have to fight smarter you're a fighter and you're

doing it really well congratulations on what you do and thank you for coming here to share thank you thank you I spent most of the day today with the rest of your team and they're all new and they're all very energetic about the new Ary so we do know about the Rebrand but you Aman what did you bring to this sure so you know I'm an entrepreneur this is I've done a startup before and it's very difficult to do a startup you know I started that company my old music media literally in a spare bedroom which my wife gave to me with my college roommate okay okay and we took it all the way from starting that company to selling that company so a successful exit I felt that that was a very difficult experience but this was eating glass every day all right but feggy this is the second time eating glass so I had

a better team and I could digest it better so I think look what I bring to the table is very simple I can make very fast decisions for the team so that they can move forward I protect them from all the political nonsense that may happen and I give them all the tools to be successful so they can focus on what's at hand absolutely which is bringing a new Ary to us right so I understand what you're offering help me understand a little bit more because this is Mal this is where you're going to be meeting a lot of games companies and also non-gaming so you're moving beyond just gaming to non gaming what are you telling them when you express to them this is the new Ary this is why you need to stand up take notice sure so look we have three core pillars that we have at Ary and they are very client centc so first is our AI platform which is kind of the core of the platform engine itself right and then we have very privacy Centric way of getting users because if you think about what happened with apple and what's going on with Google you need to be very privacy

focused and the third thing which is very unique to us is we have a fillar which is called unified creative strategy so when you are working with mobile marketers creative is extremely important and we have Decades of experience in providing the best in-class creative and we provide that creative service completely free free of charge to our clients so when you combine all these things together with our brand new platform with a privacy Centric approach of getting to users and with a very interesting creative sty I think it improves Roi for our clients so I'll give you some examples since we launched our new platform in test about a few months ago like in December we started testing we have seen 40% increase in revenue from existing clients okay 40% increase in revenue from existing clients so that you know in my mind revenue is everything right so if I can get 40% more revenue from our existing clients whatever we are building is working so I think that's what we are telling our clients this is tried and tested and now we are bring into the market there's also a lot of

research talking about diversifying channels and saying that there was a time where it was like fewer Partners was better you can manage it it's doable you don't want to stress yourself now it's the other direction you want to experiment more because you want to push out and see what can I do with what I have right and do it better so where are you coming in in that experimental phase are marketers like thinking about this look at just the revenue or are they looking at it more strategically and saying no it's part of the whole package so look the revenue story I told you was my validation my validation for the product right if we did not increase Revenue I don't think it would have been working so that's just my valid simple validation for the product so now if you think about gaming clients so let's just take example of gaming Publishers right so they're running a portfolio strategy they have certain goals they have to achieve and they have to you know it's just like a stock portfolio right I'm going to use Maybe five different channels and I'm going to use three

different providers in each Channel and I need to get a unified Roi or LTV from those combined channels right so everybody's is good at doing something or the other okay so I feel like the clients are now understanding that we are very elv focused we help them experiment with creative we actually bring new creative ideas to the table which our clients take and then bring it to new channels right so I feel like and that that paired up with our B Club service which is very consultative I think that's a winning combination that we bring to the table with them and they're very happy to test with us so how does that evolve I'm curious about the actual metrics that they're aiming for because you open up some new opportunities which is very cool but then again it might be the case then that gaming marketers need to look at their strategy differently and aim for something different than maybe the Northstar metric of maybe what it was row okay but LTV others other metrics what do you see so I think other metrics are you know how many users you are keeping in your ecosystem right that's a

very important metric these days right so we have a really strong re-engagement product it's actually needed number one by apps fer independently okay okay in the world right so we have a very strong lot to celebrate at the show right indeed indeed so what we bringing to our clients is new ways of thinking about how to engage with their audience how to have longevity With Their audience right so getting a user very difficult and keeping that user is even more difficult right so we work with them to figure out what are the strategies to re-engage them when should you re-engage them could you actually re-engage tournament users so we have a client I I cannot tell their name it's a publicly trated company but we work with them for a strategy called uh re-engaging deep tourament users which have been gone from the platform for more than 60 years so we have figured out how to bring them back profitably for our clients and you know so that we can have a very thriving ecosystem for our clients well that's what gaming marketers want to hear as well because you don't know whether you want to leave them dormant or or try

again so this is another option well it's been very interesting talking with you Aman and uh I look forward to continuing the conversation because you're continuing your Evolution so I've got to keep up on it right thank you appreciate it you're on thanks for having me this show is all about how to do your job better how to make an amazing game how to Market it and you have a say so if you have a story or know someone we need to shine a light on then we would love to hear from you we want to hear from you we want to reflect the reality of the mobile games market and all its wonderful complexity and strangeness so if you have any suggestions for us if you have any feedback for us you can always get in touch you can email us at podcast pocketgamer.biz you can find us on Twitter at PG Biz and you can reach out to us through the pocketgamer.biz website if you're interested in listening to all of our podcasts you can find find them at pocketgamer.biz SLP

podcast and we would love to hear your thoughts on future shows and we've got you covered on all the major platforms so subscribe to the audio podcast as Brian said look for us on YouTube if you want to read it hey you can do that too because we have a companion post for you as well on the pocketgamer.biz website tune in again for the next edition of the pocketgamer.biz podcast and we look forward to speaking to you in the near future until then I'm Brian Bago I'm peggyanne salts and that's the wrap until next week