AskGM #4: Psyon Games - How to create an anti-viral game! Psyon is making vaccine awareness games

yeah hello hi yeah I can get it I'm doing well I'm actually here in Helsinki in the middle of this conference business conference I had to find this kind of semi quiet spot here I hope it's not like a sound background noise is not like too disturbing but yeah so can we start with maybe just an overview in terms of like you know who you guys are your company and then like you know in any we can see a demo of the product or anything that's how that'd be great sure so we are mobile game studio focusing on combining mobile games and

the scientific topics so we started as like an educational game so but then a couple of years ago - the new direction we were actually contacted by Pfizer one of the biggest biggest pharmaceutical companies and they had been related on you know vaccine vaccine awareness okay and they were thinking that games are already so big media then they can reach out the younger population and nowadays even older population in a massive way and they they a had these hypothesis that games games will be so big in communicating different kind of health issues that that they want to be wonderful for remembering that and they had spotted our game production antidote which is about which is a game where

player is controlling issue manned defense system like a different kind of white cells and T cells and B cells and defending the immune system again against bacteria and viruses and so on and they thought that the game production would be a perfect game to explain how vaccines work so basically the immune in the logic behind vaccines because many people who are against vaccines they don't understand I don't understand how vaccines work and and games are interactive way to explain the interactions of human bodies so we started to get kind of a new market and we realized that not many game companies were operating there yeah so it took a long time to open the right doors in that death industry for means to white white people to join to join that kind of join the vision and then and we have

succeeded very well so we have had some game industry better ups to toe like Peter West who was building the Angry Birds front okay and then some guys who tens of years of experience and pharmaceutical industry and they have seen like how the health care industry is how they digital marketing network in detail about important topics such as like vaccines or diabetes or cancer and so and they thought that the pharmaceutical industry is under digital disruption and we are kind of doing something new in that that's from here so so that's kind of our background and currently we are building the second pilot here in treatment with clutches McBrine which is the world's leading vaccine producer testing that how's our game production and how how campaign

which is related on the game production how does it compare compare to their like marketing and if we can prove that game can be a big if game game can be more efficient in the health communication than their global marketing campaign it's a big thing because obviously want to scale it globally immediately and then we are negotiating with seven out of ten top pharmaceutical companies in the world and also with the public and private sector so so it's like we have interesting times what we are doing and basically the interesting that's what we're doing okay do you have anything you can show us in terms of is it can you screen share a demo is yes sure so one moment I have trailer key it open great soon to share you just click on

the middle button at the bottom of your screen shared beginner oh sorry I yes all right okay you can see now yep okay sir oh yeah yeah watch some of this last night this is so I posted here just to explain what this game is about so it's a casual strategy tower defense game here is your stem cell here comes waves of bacteria viruses stop scenes and so on and then you are building these different kind of cells here and all of these have scientific so layer is guarded guarded to deal for example white cells he's guided to build here T

cells and B cells and one by one layer the game explains what is the role of different kind of cells in the immune system and enhance how they are working and how vaccines are part of the F word immune system as also we believe that games are games games can be very fun way to explain those same interactions that you have in a convenient system and and our approach in kind of Education game is that I'm not a big fan of traditional education games where education comes first and actually when it's to educational it means that it's not fun to play so we believe that the game has to be much with entertainment values with the best tower defense games and then at the same time stick has to still deliver the message that you're trying to deliver so that's kind of the basic concept but III let the trailer

ago now so but please ask any questions that you have [Music] yes so any questions about the gameplay what's what's the objective is the objective more to get as many players as possible for marketing or are you actually trying to monetize yeah that's good question so I changed the slide here so we are not currently monetizing the game at all so I hope this kind of slide here that you know that just like to show the bigger bigger picture what we what we're doing here so you could think that college aid is a

marketing education and saves flat and it means that here is like education cards you play the game you spent in the game on average like 20 minutes in interactive session learning about how immune system is working then we have creating campaigns which are related on the list of not being vaccinated and the viruses which are kind of the characters of all game so I will show you in one moment that advertised now we are running test campaigns in Finland in different social media channels and we are measuring how much more efficient this kind of animated game related marketing is related on the other marketing campaigns that those taxing producers are running and so the final goals that people sing you'd imagine

marketing vaccine related marketing failures in social media TV or something part of the people go and download the game swings gents often it's understanding how vaccines work and eventually part of those people Lord says they got six it can be 188 on travel vaccines or it can be related on HPV or it can be related on maybe in some public mandatory vaccinations but I show you the other video which is about the kind of the marketing trailer it is related on beginning it's like it sure he's healthy he's

gotta carry him okay so you got the idea so basically is related on travel vaccinators and what you can do when you build the holiday and only they you can type of if this a or a party to speak so we have been trying to combine in a creative way the game characters which is hepatitis game characters to the to the like holiday setting if you go to holiday you carry this character which happens to be the hepatitis from our game and then you have this happy happy couple here and the girl is asking that to the carry me like this for the for the rest of the vacation and the hypocrite isn't then asking that could carry me like this for the restaurant nearby and that's mason related on the risk that if you get hepatitis can actually

you can actually have that for the rest of your life and all right so so basically and then since then we are measuring that some people we have to cold waters one one is directly to the game they download the game and play the game and one it is to be sad this moment I'll show you one is to this vaccine information page because again brand it with all game characters and explaining how are the risks but it's a and B and so continuing visual graphical style from the social media mark or TV market into the game until the like a decision to make the vaccine purchase so not like a traditional it's long answer to your question but no we

are not monetizing at the moment the introducer we are monetizing the healthcare industry who's spending billions for a different time like vaccine awareness and different species awareness and so now so how you guys measuring success or how well GSK or you know maybe the pharmaceutical companies funding the the game project yeah how are they evaluating you guys is it is it clear is the number of downloads good good question so so now we are in the second pilot we are measuring that kind of efficacy of this plus left so we are we have cost per click for example most probably compared to their mobile template poverty we have click-through rate click-through rate to their vaccine information page and then we have obviously cost per install how expensive it is to install

the game and eventually we want to be showing that person who downloads the game takes place the game for 20 minutes or something and gets the interactive experience and beats the hepatitis with the help of vaccination the purchase of vaccination is going to be tens of times like a bigger than in the traditional way and we know those numbers and they are not very unlike big numbers that how what is the like percentage of the traditional people that they convert to life vaccine vaccine buyer so this is kind of the big thing if we can show that by playing the game you get the control or you you get the digital code and then you go to play D and we can track and measure where why did the person make a vaccine decision buying decision do this under center you're tracking that last part from edgy

a Shinto seals by giving them a code and sir we are not doing it at the moment so we are just like trying to find the ways how to delete them but in traditional in pharmaceutical like advertisement if they have like TV campaign or something in TV campaign they have a like number but if you want to get this call to this number and then they have some kind of little bit different you know different number in each campaign so that they can track the track that will do the customer comes from television or social media or radio or something else so we are trying to point the same or you could just use a QR code right I mean I think well so what what's the primary issue that you guys are running against where we're you know polar I could potentially try to try to help is there a specific it's always about lack of

resources and lack of resources so again like we have been raising 1.2 million funding and now we are racing again money and we want to see the results because it's they are so close and stuff like that so so it's like between like solving some kind of and sewing showing enough results so far so reasonable so I think that's the biggest problem now and that's why we are like s why I'm this investor conference again having just a meeting so that we can first of all understand games or they understand pharmaceutical industry that's kind of the best thing and and but that's the

biggest biggest challenge that we are trying to find it seems like maybe the part that you guys should be working most is the message with respect to how effective this method method is in terms of you know causing a conversion to vaccine purchased and other methods so and I mean I think you guys are pretty close to knowing what that number it is although I I don't know if do - is there a benchmark right now in terms of the current industry benchmark you're about to miss so we know that traditional vaccine information side if conversion is it's really cool so I know that we could have even like tens of times better version of the game and we can

actually crack and show the results so if you think about for example travel vaccine research and then if your lifetime and each of those a little bit under under like so it's 300 if we can show that that's something if we can show that in conversions exact vaccine saves purchase is like tens of times whether we're on to some and we can this kind of communications like interesting I guess the tricky part is if if people are punching up a code then are the places that silver that you know are the doctors offices are they the infrastructure there for them to accept code whether it's just a number or QR codes yes yes yeah that's good question

I swear sir so what you just like described is that that clinics are actually also part of this value chain so so this is like okay information campaigns are run by the vaccine producers and in maybe some countries if those can be run by but by clinics but in the backseat producers and then people call the information like the web pages and then they call the clinics and clinics get obviously they gonna because well and yes so they are part of the value chain if we have good incentive for them to give like to make the technological changes so that they can beat the cure policy stuff like it it should be a big thing they are also coming to be manufactures there so that's always always something that we have to yeah I

think that's the tricky part is you know whether you can convince investors that what is it now you're asking for two to miracles right one is that you create a great product that a lot of people are going to use and then secondly and it's kind of dependent on the first that the the distribution infrastructure stuff like that they're all going to adopt that may be solved by just like also created you being an app that accepts those codes but you might have to you know work on the full you know valiant unit and the full slab and billing systems yeah points to be honest we happen this final section wide yet too much attention because we have and because liked it so

to get down to the full like you know to really measure what it cost to creative max a purchase conversion without that infrastructure my recommendation will be create something like some form of proxy to that yeah you know in in the game it's like okay are you interested in a vaccine get a code like they press the button and then you know they put in their email and then their email some information not where and how they can buy a vaccine yes yes that that conversion step it's not actual purchase is gonna require so much infrastructure and so forth okay well look these people clicked on yes I'm interested in purchasing a vaccine they put in their email there said something and then you can model

some reasonable loss or whatever to the actual purchase but at least you're a lot closer in terms of yeah that's pretty they were sold so so yeah good points would like the value proposition or estimate to the investor what are you currently seeing from like from a CPI or IP fronting metrics perhaps coming into the game in our CPA CPI has been like I think four to six cents or something like it's much much cheaper to six cents or something like that in Canada but now with this purchase

decline we are those numbers are from like the Google marketing now we are focusing on Facebook and Instagram marketing so the numbers are close to change but we don't have those yet we are waiting those numbers right so then the next question is like one so we talked about the point and you know because you don't have like that like maybe you have create a proxy which is step from education to sales then now in terms of like the education part you know how good isn't it yeah retention yes okay very good question on that that actually leads us to our next slide so it's kind of a scientific validation so

true typically when you're making game you don't need to make any scientific validation that is it a good game but what you asked is face it some things that we have to be able to show it Laurie like healthcare industry you have to be able to show that in education so now we are preparing to institute of health and welfare of women so baby space that's like governmental institution we study all the like vaccine recommendation and health recommendations no they are building the pilot and test our game production include the kind of schools the idea is that we are testing the game production to target group - from 9 to 14 and we are informing them

about HPV vaccination so HPV is human papillomavirus and human papillomavirus is causing cancer for girls but now this there's like scientific evidence that those vaccinations to boys they prevent infections dramatically and they prevent the like cancer cases dramatically because boys are the one who are spreading the device so now the government of this Institute of Health and Welfare they are started to recommend those vaccinations also for boys in net now they want to be testing in those pilot school they have to and then the truth that will be informed about HPV vaccination without game and then we can have like

it we have like the two tubes shall be MV and see that what is the people is like a effect on behavioral attitudes and understanding related on vaccines when and and we can compare the like teaching manner that's the thing how we come to the scientific validation how effective is action of Education like educational traditional educational methods so that's the thing that we are we are trying to right yeah I guess what we're seeing the videos of the gameplay it looks pretty cool and you know it's a very sticky category so in the category of game that you picked it's it's probably a good one yes but then I guess the question would be from a gameplay perspective you know are you guys

tracking the right numbers so that you know you guys can have a better understanding of whether okay you know maybe the game is good enough maybe it's not you know so like in terms of like what you guys do in terms of optimizing the gameplay the TUI the level balancing like are you guys doing the the things you guys need you to make sure that the gameplay is strong enough so that you're drawing in the players every lot so that they can you know get the educational piece that you guys are trying to deliver yeah that's like a good question and I am I I could describe this road you know how do people make a great game it's really fun and you know it's even more people to make free to play it because you need all those testing iteration and I'm finding the right balance between the monetization and then the fun gameplay and everything that there is one more like elements it's the scientific element it means

that all the characters need to be model so that they behave in the game yes just like they behave in real real body or they are more like accurately enough in the game so that you can deliver some kind of education context it makes it like even more difficult so usually obviously we have our like own testing testing system that way where we can factor like basic method like the matrix like about retention or something like that but even if we can make the retention very light high and again okay players come to the game or they spent a lot of time in the game that's not the only thing because they will have that do they really learn something from the balance if you make it like more like educational you can give it like you can you can make the retention slower if you

make the retention bigger are used more like the game elements you can make the educational part like can you talk about that part so how are you integrating the educational piece around vaccines and and built into the game is it like emeritus based you guys have to talk in between or yeah yeah good good thing we have a narrative the game starts now with the kind of introduction coming which is related on vaccines the player is and of making their vaccines in the laboratory okay I could show one comic which you can do and yeah so one moment I check here okay here so this is a kind of a basic comic which kind of explains how how we for example tell that vaccines are work so this is one character from our

gameplay it's a bezel and bezel is firing antibodies to the bacteria and by doing so it makes those bacteria less dangerous you can see you get they're like hard hide there and they move little bit less less dangerous and when the bezel has been firing antibodies to the bacteria these the white cells can be recognizing them each like it more easily and that's how basically this turn of the system system book works and and but the problem is that bezel has to be studying all the targets that come to the immune system so different and bacteria viruses over and if there's infection there comes lots of bacteria they come through your defenses and they can hurt use themselves or amused but what vaccines do they help b-cell to learn faster so that these are Empire antibodies faster so that white cells

can eat those so pada gets faster so that's basically the interaction and the mechanism of vaccines are actually working in human but again this is my like empirical study that's not even adults understand that's how vaccines are actually working so this is this has been like good material also for not only kids or teens but also for parents because these are quite abstract concepts if you explain people that what is your t-cell and b-cell and interactions requires time and of a sophisticated understanding of the score scientific terms that you really understand how their work so this can for really new way like maybe more appealing and more down-to-earth way to explain those a difficult process so I think that but I hope I like answered the question that's how we try to build the education inside of that game okay and

then how did you guys decide upon tower defense as the core gameplay to kind of deliver this education about vaccine why this relative to you know maybe like a hyper casual or more idle type game or something like that to be honest I don't remember how we came to the conclusion to like to beat that element side I I went myself I have been reading chemistry to excel and molecular biology and stuff like that so I understood the interactions of the human-like elements I I had like some tower defense games so those were the kind of reference points but I don't remember how we came to the conclusion that our difference might be a good way to start and we have been thinking also that could we find like some kind of more casual casual like approach to the bigger audience which

deliver the message in a powerful way or we have actually some some some ideas but but which we are going to try if we can show that like this kind of concept works so we are scaling to like with different audiences after that and we are also scaling to be further of the areas yes and my advice on that front like if you are able to make additional product is to like this time because you guys are fundamentally a marketing company it you know to some degree right and yes yes yes you know you're not trying to monetize you're trying to get this product out as much as possible and so I think you guys have to start thinking more like a marketing company in the sense that you know the the actual gameplay that you guys deliver has to be something that that delivers on that's associated with this educational piece and so you know my recommendation would be you know like

whatever the game is so let's say it's like a snake that IO Idol you know or hyper casual game or some other games or maybe it's it's some kind of idol game you know you just like releasing a bunch of viruses and then you know you're trying to like kill somebody or whatever it is like the three four or five different concepts you guys should really be doing like a Facebook ad test right it's just basically like creating these different creatives around okay here's the hyper casual version here's the idle game version here's a there's maybe just three different types of hyper casual games when you put it out there to measure okay what what is our IP M installs per Mille or install what kind of click-through rates are we getting what kind of CPI are we getting and then like I think it's good to have the current game as a base and then you could also test that conversion piece by saying you know are you interested in

getting a back seat yes you know the email you know like you can use the current game for that but then to also say okay and talking to your investors hey here's four or five different ideas we've tested them and we know what the front-end metrics for that are going to look yeah and then that can also help direct your you know because you're gonna have limited resources so like what kind of game should we make like even before you work on the game to know that players actually oh this is the kind of game of players want yes that had many very good points yeah yeah what are you saying something character this tower-defense the character development with this tower defense game is is valuable you know it's our defense is super hard it's not it's not a very easy Jean rrah work to work in but you know I think you guys did like Joseph mentioned that this is practically like an IP and you're

saying that characters have to be modeled like realistically after this you know this this true scientific part of like each character so in some ways I think it lends like an easier hand to your character because you kind of already know what it's supposed to do but it's also limiting so in that way so in that way but it's because you're working this tower defense I think that it's actually hoping you flush out a lot of your burgers and I would probably pick like some topics I'd want to teach about and then fabricate and exaggerate in other areas I would I would be careful about sticking so hard to the IP in some cases because it's not like it's like The Lion King or like the look you know I'm saying or like in a Walt Disney movie yep but I but I don't think that you I don't think that the tower defense was a bad move I personally really developed out a lot of your thinking and perhaps you know most of time when I'm building games with companies why I always try to

see what the technology will lend a hand to next though like knowing like what kind of technology you've built with this with this particular product and what I could lend what could it what could it land hand to for other products would be it would be a fun brainstorm like for example if you build a game that had real-time go-karts that could lend to like a real time jumper or like some other technology in the same in a similar genre especially since you can reuse characters for each game awesome you could possibly build you know a whole string of things using the same exact character so I think from a game design standpoint from like building the game I'd be interested to see like what is it about the game like what is it about the technology that specials I could lend hands to other things and then like a big list of the the current IP and how those could turn

into other things because obviously you don't want to make a hyper casual game just to make a hyper casual game you also want to be true to the IP so I'm curious about a kind of brainstorming around the current technology how that could lend hand other things or you know just the overall performance and the current tower defense is interesting to me I used to really love a game called set mall have you better set in mall no it's not so really there's a really really intense tower defense game that I have played for ever and I don't even remember what the IP really was kind of alien ish yeah yeah but some of the tower defense games that I've played that I really liked the IP didn't even matter I was just like oh my god this is insane so I don't think that the IP is a make or break I don't think the storyline is a make or break and I do think good gameplay would be always super cool so I'm a gentieman student

check me now and seeing how we could you know see how we can improve that particular game or lend that technology to other things that are yeah Custer like Joseph's talking about but yeah very good thinking and reasoning and something that we have been thinking that is if we think about the educational perspective a little bit more and and we think that okay we have now this tower defense game which is around vaccines and immune system and so on we wish that if we would make the game for little bit like their different audience let's say that we make like a duper fashion game but if it's related on the vaccines or if it's related or the immune system we'd still like to keep the characters as to say my reason for that is that when player understand that okay so certain kind of bacteria moves like that he understands that that

always looks like that or stem cell because then it also builds man rather oddly around the like get like interactions of like human immune system that when you understand that okay stem cell is working like that it looks like that and then the white cell is moving like a little bit different and in the next game those even though the gameplay is different you understand that oh those interactions are actually exact the same so it it maintains their educational like narrative of the game and then and like for example now we are talking about vaccines but we have been talking not about also about cancer so there's a big problem for example in children's hospitals when they tried to okay cancers very years topic topic but it's like reality of life and sometimes you have to be involved in ten year old kid about what

happened in Billy's body when he has like he or she has leukemia and the problem is that when you're trying to inform them about okay what's happening in your body and you tell them okay you're you have this kind of thing in your your body and your immune system is collapsing because we are giving you these antibiotics antibiotics like immune system is breaking down and then bacteria and viruses are attacking there and then we have to give you the antibiotics and so on so there's so much abstract language that they don't understand what's happening there and when they don't understand they're not commit they're not like engaged treatments or they are not motivated or they even they like parents they don't understand what's happening in happening there so it's vitally important that we be able to tell about those interactions in human body in in like in like a easy easy and casual way and it would mean

that like I say that we hope we can keep the characters in say as you say even though we changed like gameplay all these things change the incentive like change their life theme from the vaccine to to the cancer or diabetes or some something else so I have to what my okay with them what's the best way that we can help you amount and so I'm kind of like what I'm thinking on it's like there's there's potentially three different areas that we can help you yeah the first is we talked about building in a in some kind of CTA to to provide players or users with more information or to act as that proxy to give us an idea of what the ultimate conversion from from gameplay to buying

a vaccine would be like and so yeah we'd be happy to like try and design a CTA type of action in game for you secondly in terms of the gameplay itself you know I think you know Paul's a fantastic game designer I think one of the things with new is like you know have Paul evaluate the gameplay play the game and to make recommendations from a gameplay perspective what you know he thinks that you guys should do to improve the game in the lane like if you're trying to come up with a new game then we could help you try and understand how you would run a you know quick and dirty market test so like if let's say we come up with three four or five different concepts with different art styles and how to execute a Facebook ad test so that you can kind of see you know so how to run it and then how to evaluate it to see you know what concept is the strongest and one of the specific metrics that you'd be looking for like

you know CTR install rate or IPM yeah that's really good when I'm usually when I've been in the company where somebody's coming evaluated the game I was always like oh my god cuz I'd be a part of the game and I'd be like who is this guy gonna evaluate our game but um I promise you know one thing I can do is from a from a position of like being in being in a position where somebody has devalued my game and I felt worried about it I kind of know what it's like sometimes people are paid to come in and be a big jerk and saying bunch of things that suck and then they leave and you're like what was that all about so I'm definitely not going to be doing that but I would basically try to look at your game like as if I was the part of your team and just survive my feedback even if you guys thought I was brilliant

mediocre or whatever but it would just be honest and yeah based on just anything I felt and I've worked in some products one that I worked in was an online gambling product and it has really really big sign-up process because if you wanted to do online gambling you literally had to give your first name last name address some even social security number to some extent just so you can participate in this experience and this business did become profitable now we were too large and they downsized but at the time I was like man this is kind of hard I don't know who's gonna go through this insane insane process just so they can do this online gambling but damn it they are still going strong and people do it all the time and I'm telling you what you know I've never seen it I never seen it I've never seen an intro so big and so in-depth I thought who's gonna give away

their social security number to do this this is insane and we worked real hard and it worked and so I don't see why you know some kind of some kind of a game that explains a big difficult process and something that has like all these different hurdles putting work you know as you were talking I kind of see I think I can see what you feel I think you imagine your characters on flyers and on fanners and when people believe vaccines they even recognize like the face the characters of the of the immunity that they need and I was even imagining some kind of social element like you talk about understanding what cancer or what these things are I even wonder if people would be willing I've been on a dating sites before where somebody who is actually has like a hepatitis and they'll talk about themselves like hi my name is Jessica blah blah blah at the bottom it'll say something I don't understand and I remember I googled it and I was like oh she's actually like she has something or

something like that like it would say like HPV or something like that yeah so there's a community of people who actually share what they have and they actually recognize that and they're trying to be like together with that you know and they have to be forward with who they are and it's a very sensitive topic and Bendis and so I recognized a community around that as well so I know that we're talking about kids and things like that but at the same time I was also thinking about or more mature audience and I wondered like about you know social features that could help the game just you know like hey you know here's this game I you know I'm saying like I have leukemia or I have decided these things or I have hepatitis you know some people are actually open which to talk about it and yes you know I'm so I do see I I did I can't imagine in some cases that somebody would actually explain to them

their children what's going on with the game if it's good enough and accurate enough and so the dialogue part you know I've been a huge I've been hard I've been pretty hard on dialogue throughout my career because most of time it slows the game down I'm like come on guys let's just get these guys in so I'm gonna have to I think I'll that's that's one area that I would really look at I think dialogue in free-to-play is a really hard mix it's like trying to mix the book with you know a popsicle right it's just like this one is super you know like story heavy and one is like really like let's just go you got a kid on a phone and they're trying to play and it's all these words and stuff it's very very good but yeah I mean I'll have to get a gay to get a situation where I can play it like report it on video so I can scrub through it and look at certain areas and but I think I hear you out I think it's I think it's really interesting and I'd love to take a look

and yeah see if I can help you on your journey here yeah so maybe what we could do is you know we're kind of coming into a little bit of a busy period but like maybe like the week after e3 so the week after next if you have a follow up called and we can go over those three things right and so like so so Paul can go over a game play with you and then I could go over like you know a good CTA to conversion proxy as well as you know how you would run that sort of Facebook back past yeah okay sounds amazing great he doesn't Android only right you have an iOS as well but good Paulo slate mostly Android users okay cool that'll be great alright three I'll download your games and make a folder for and we'll get started whenever we schedule it let's do it hey hey amazing thank you for your time and

good comments and I really really appreciate those looking forward to the next next session and and don't be like sensitive with the feedback I think that we all have to be embracing the reality so like opinion that's like it that's a good way to do it and and we all have to we can all learn the game perspective as a person we can roll up and and I faced with the investors I always have asked them like direct feedback okay if they say that okay you have I'm not going to invest so maybe they are hiding something give it on and give you like full feedback so that's I think that's the way to go so so that we can follow and make it better yes

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