AI Art Changing 2D Art and Concept Design Forever with Michael Shinde | 312

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what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev Unchained I don't want game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host as always Brandon fam with me a returning guest a special favorite yes that's why he's returning Michael shinde Michael how you doing hey I'm good man how you doing good dude uh just a little reintroduction don't have to spend too much time for those who are listening but we want these to be isolated episodes uh can you give the good people out there of who you are where you're from where are you hidden sure uh so my name is Michael shinde uh I'm a concept artist currently working at Riot um I work on the Valiant Maps team uh doing concept art for you know all the maps basically uh prior to that I worked at Turtle Rock Studios where I basically did the same thing I worked on back for

blood and a couple of other projects over there that fortunately didn't make it out the door uh but we did um we're coming back for blood and then prior to that uh I worked at one pixel brush where I was like that's like an Outsourcing studio um where I did like a variety of different things and worked on last of us too for a quick minute I worked on infinite Warfare and a bunch of other bunch of other projects um and I also teach at Academy of Art University um in their visual Development Department perfect uh so for those who haven't read the title and it's been a while since we talked but since then I feel like basically in the span of six months air have come into the scene and definitely dominated all our artistic circles and the general public uh for those who didn't even care about art are are now talking to me about how cool it is to take selfies and see it in the

style of pretty much any artist out there that they can think of uh so this is I think a topic that I'll probably be spending the next year discussing with multitudes of experts but I think it's you know to kind of break into it uh it was interesting to bring you on as a as a professional concept Artist as a teacher in concept art and just as a fellow hobbyist you know just in your own time producing art of your own what are your thoughts about this uh oh my like where do you like I guess where to start well let's start from the beginning right when when did you hear it before everybody else did like me like were you knowingly seeing this coming onto the Horizon like six months ago um maybe not in the like the where it is now like where how far it is Advanced and how quickly um but I was like experimenting with AI

tools and just like apps and things like that prior to like this big mainstream explosion that you see now um you know there's there was like the dream app or whatever and then um Disco diffusion like early like early days and all that stuff um but that was like you know a lot of the things were very rudimentary um and even and also too you can take like Photoshop uh in it has Ai and stuff built into it and that's been in there for like a good bit granted it's like not very good um so I've known about AI for quite a bit but again like I don't think anybody predicted that it was going to go this like accelerate this fast and like piss this many people off basically um and I think that's just mainly because of the way that um it's been handled on its release you know um so yeah like I you know I I think AI is like such a it's such a big topic it's such like a deep topic and uh I

guess like I should preface everything that I say here with like I'm definitely no expert in artificial intelligence in any way like I have to take like everything that I'm saying is coming from the perspective of um like a professional artist that's using the tools uh or like you know has experimented with these things and like has like a general knowledge of like what's going on over there but um in no means can I like talk like super in depth about uh you know exactly like how AI works you know because because I think a lot of people don't really and cannot uh say with any definitive manner like how AI like digests information and spits out these images um so yeah yeah I think overall the the primary thing with artists that were instantly engaging conversations with is like the ethics of it right so I I always kind of draw back to basically every discipline kind of went through this phase uh in

terms of um of how how we're dealing with this kind of stuff like with environment R there was well actually it started with character art with 3D scans like just being able to capture the actor's image 360 hi hi deaf and and basically transfer that into into the the software and be able to kind of basically one to one be be matching it and fixing it and there's a whole process to to correct it um and that technology kind of uh led into environment with mega scans and being able to photograph like props you know there's a whole cleanup process to it but basically anything realistic it becomes like the premier way of capturing data if you're making a realistic game right there's no need to uh basically scope a rock anymore right just go take an image uh and then there's mocap for animators uh animators

we're kind of like fighting mocap for a while but this is to capture uh motion right and actors motion and again it falls more in line with uh realistic motion and not with a stylistic like Pixar films or Disney animation films and now I feel like it's kind of the next stage in a way I feel concept artist has a more of a crisis than all the other disciplines right uh yeah yeah to me this is uh this is like direct violation of everything that a concept is um in a way yeah I I think um like when you bring up like Mega scans and and mocap and all that stuff um I I think when you compare that stuff to AI at the very least um like the ethical the ethical means of it is still like it's good right because you're still you still have to go out and like capture the data uh yourself that's why like you know quixel had like those teams of people that would go and like photograph

all this stuff or textures.com right um so like humans are still out there like getting the information and then you pay for it right to have access to this information that you know uh was you know paid for in a responsible way um the difference I I guess like a maybe a like a a closer comparison would be the introduction of photobashing into concept art right where um in the very beginning and even you know not not so much recently but like mostly in the beginning people were very worried about uh and outraged with like that at the ethics of using photos in your in your work and saying oh you should be painting everything by hand Etc um and then like you know how like the whole thing of okay well obviously like most people aren't photographing all their own reference that's just like unreasonable so they're obviously getting this reference from somewhere and is it copyrighted and if it is copyrighted um then how is it you know when you put

it into your work like how is it you know does that put you in some sort of legal trouble or whatever and how do you avoid that you know and then there's like this whole thing of oh you have to paint over like a certain amount and stuff like that so I think like the the ethical the ethical side is like pretty close to like early days of photobashing when that that was still like kind of wild west um but yeah I think that's that's one of the things that artists in particular have latched on to like quite heavily myself included um with with the ethics of it right because you know for people that don't really understand hey what's going on with the AI right AI has what's called a data set um and data sets are like a collection of information it could be images text whatever and they're like huge it's like huge amount of data like five point something billion images or something like that and that's what's used to train the AI to you know output these images right and the problem with this is that you know a lot of times it can

contain sensitive material copyrighted material um you know graphic material that are like medical images that shouldn't be in there like a variety of different things that are very problematic not only legally but uh ethically as well and you know so for so for artists right it's like when you find out that things like Flickr and art station behance whatever has been like those websites have been scraped like multiple times over for their images and then the images are then being used to help put uh art you know um that's that's very problematic right and and there's like a at least one I don't know famous but like you know a standout case of an artist named Greg Rutkowski uh who his name has been used I mean countless times uh I would say like thousands of times in in prompts in like mid-journey and and stable diffusion to create you know

I I guess like good outputs right like his like his work like when you put his name in it would like create like something that looks good that's that's kind of the correlation and the problem with it is that people would then post these online and it would flood the image search results with AI results and his work would get suppressed basically right because you can't keep you're not gonna be able to keep up with the output of of multiple multiple people generating work in your style and you only have yourself right um so yeah like the ethics thing I think is one of the bigger the bigger talking points when it comes to AI um I think like for me personally it causes a a like big strain because not like I'm not necessarily I'm not necessarily against AI itself and and I'm very much aware that it's going to be a part of the artistic workflow like whether you like it or not you got to have to jump aboard the train at some point um so so it's like I don't want to use it

uh right now because of the way that it's you know the because of the data sets that are that are included with it right like it's just um it's problematic for me uh but I have to keep tabs on it right I have to keep tabs on like what's happening in the advancements of it because you know I I am going to have to use it one day um I just I just wish they went about it more responsibly you know uh because like the launch has been so quick and so rapid and you can't like put back the you can't like put back what's already been you know taken out of the box right like it's it's exploded onto the scene and once you train the AI to do something unless you erase the unless you erase it it's not gonna forget any information right so like if you say you want to opt your images out of the data set for example right like like as an artist I say I don't want my stuff to be in here you know well okay that's fine but if it's been in the data set most likely it doesn't even matter at this point it's like just a Band-Aid Band-Aid not even like a fix right it's

just like a make yourself feel better you know it's like already too late there's so many things about it in the last six months that's still like um surprises me like it just felt like out of nowhere almost feels like a conspiracy man out of nowhere AI art came out now I'm seeing AI essays that people can write uh just just the general feeling and like attribute it to like a style and a whole essay can be written and then just AI everything is happening and I've never seen anything unfold so quickly onto the general public as AI generation of anything and uh even the microwave took a while right so there just seems to be such a influx of here it is deal with it discuss it if you want but as far as I can tell it's here to stay like I was looking at like news article and of course artists like ourselves are having discussions about it of how to deal with it and

um I think it becomes like you said the cat's out of the bag at this point where if my wife and kid or anybody that really never had an interest in art tools right suddenly are talking about it and are using it uh pretty damn well and you're seeing influencers on Instagram and all these different Avenues uh just gobbling it up that it is at a point of no return obviously and it's like love or hate it you know it's it's it's it's changing things right uh like uh you know the number one app right now on on on um what is it on apple is called uh what's it called I was looking at it earlier lenza AI yeah yeah it's like top the number one spot on U.S app store right when was Photoshop everywhere number one

of anything in the App Store uh and it has 12 million Global installs and for 11 days it's up from 600 percent so but you like I've never seen anything AI art tool gone so viral uh I didn't you know even even that was a thing I mean once in a while you say blender's cool but you don't see everyone jumping on board yeah and and wanting to generate art in a way it's a barrier to entry right so it's very entry so low right now it is a make art button right now right and um you know you know play Dev is etiquette you know in a way it introduces a lot of artists a lot of creativity um it solves a lot of issues too that I see you know we've become an industry is about like let me have the art now right directors being hovering art directors they want

you to do micro changes or quick changes or just throwing random ideas at the board and wanting to be able to generate now we have that right um and I I do think in the sick way it's like a programmer's way of uh getting back at artists you know that's uh but you know what's funny about that man is like you know programmers way of getting back at artists but you know I I experimented with the text input like the the chat uh AI the journalist night yeah yeah uh it's something like chat GPD GPT or something like that um and it's it's basically like stable diffusions you know like it's the one that puts out like you could put out essays and stuff right you can say oh write me a paper about such a subject right um but I use it to to create a python code for blender and like I put it in blender and it worked it's like you know it's it's crazy like it can do Insane amounts of stuff that right and that's

and that's what's scary right because um if AI keeps going on this direction like as accelerated as it is um it's going to replace so many different jobs like it's going to start to replace the human element of the workforce right I think uh like the the legal side of this of this stuff needs to try to catch up and most likely it's gonna not but it needs to at least try it because if we're not careful like it could be very dangerous very dangerous yeah I think as far as I can tell things are in motion this is going to destroy a lot of jobs for sure creativity I think was something that humans provided ourselves as in AI is too rigid to to ever duplicate but yeah in a way that program we went a disgruntled program went mad scientists like we we basically told them you know you need us more than you you need we

need you all right I thought I thought that discussion is when they created Minecraft to be honest right one is like the ugliest piece of art ever and then suddenly and it became the biggest game in the world right I was like all right that's the end of that and then we saw Roblox right I was like all right fine you can have that you know all the kids are playing it but I don't get it but take it you know but then suddenly this that wasn't enough and we have this and it uh it's like you said it will lead to an end um but you know the game industry in particular and I think all entertainment Ministry it seems like every artist is kind of against us in a way right at least publicly [Music] um yeah it really depends because I see I I see a lot of friends like they are using it not like it's personal use but professional too they're like in there trying to like play with it basically yeah I think like

uh with with AI certain like definitely certain jobs and are and let's say the concept art or entertainment industry in general are gonna be like their workflow will rapidly change um so for example like if you're doing photoreal concept art um and specifically like pitch art uh for like movies or something like that your your process might heavily involve like AI at the very beginning and then painting over to fix like minor stuff or compositional things right because I mean it can be very difficult to beat the speed and efficiency that you're going to get with that and if you look at some of the outputs right like if you're tuned into to like these groups on Facebook or whatever where these people are posting their stuff I mean like some of the things you see are very impressive um a lot of it is not but then you see it every once in a while where somebody does something that you know if you were to say if you were to um be doing pitch art for like a movie right like uh like Star Wars or

something like that or whatever it'd be um it like it's it's very very close to final product that you just have to do like miter miter tweaks in Photoshop right and that's I guess that's where like the difference too is going to be where um like the hobbyist versus the perf the professionals right I feel like a lot of people get really scared with uh artist being replaced because of AI but you know I I don't see um I don't see AI like fully replacing us there will still be a place for artists like with a skill set like like ours right where we are able to take images um and edit them afterwards right that's going to be like the major difference because if everybody can use AI right like you take an example where everybody is like here um this is where AI is and then artists like that have a skill set are like able to go further right like why why would you hire a person that can only get you the output but not anything further than that right because if we're all trained on AI but I have extra skill sets like I

don't see the reason why um I would I would be out of a job unless unless the direction is that AI altogether is what replaces everybody um but I I think that I think that regulation will eventually step in and make that not the case um I think that's like a very very dark dark future for for entertainment as a whole if we decide to like replace humans all together yeah when you say regulation you're talking about just um copyright issues and like well uh yeah like that kind of stuff too yes like copyright issues but I I honestly think they may have to um eventually Implement some sort of thing where like you know AI is maybe a percentage of your Workforce but you can't have you know you can't have like a 90 AI Workforce right like so for example if you took like Riot games right um your art Department can't be just like one art director plus an AI sitting there for like two two art directors

plus an AI right like um you know maybe like a percentage of the workforce is is is AI or whatever I don't know how that would work but but again like I feel like um there's like a ton of different things that need to be addressed with with the legality of you know what's going on with AI yeah I think at the very uh the law in the processes is always like 10 steps slower in Tech so it's gonna be a while I think before any change is regulating this stuff and I think the drive behind it would have to come from for immediate change for immediate moderation is going to come from the team's ethical stance on it like individ uh Indie teams uh small marketing firms you know every anyone that is small that doesn't have the

resources to hire hundreds or thousands of people they're going to use this I mean to the Max and they're gonna they're gonna uh over utilize it and under report it right uh take a lot of credibility I'm already seeing that on LinkedIn to be honest like a lot of friends that are certainly badass concept artists saying like I made this over the weekend no biggie uh and then do like a essay on on on their thinking process behind it I was like all right dude okay yeah oh yeah yeah see that's kind of crazy man I I mean like it is wild right when you see stuff like that but I think it is a positive that like one thing about AI right that I will say is um it does bring accessibility to creative work to people on like a broad scale um and that's a good thing right I think like people because because I have seen things like posts or whatever on whether

it be LinkedIn or Facebook or something like that where people say oh you know what before Ai and these tools like I um you know felt like I couldn't like express my ideas or whatever and now with this without with AI right like I'm able to visualize things that I want to visualize and I can do it um you know however and have control over it and I can do like the essay part as well like I can write I can do the whole process of you know you know whatever I want to create and that's a good thing right I think that um in general like humans be able to express themselves is positive um again I just think that the companies that create the tool that allow these people to do this need to be uh more responsible with how they like release these products to the world because again like you know the data sets they were not meant to be used in this way like it was specifically meant to be for like research and non-profit and then you

have certain like companies that are you know basically valued at millions and millions of dollars that are using these data sets and that's that's problematic right um but again like there's there's positives to the introduction of AI on like a broad scale yeah and it does question like the processes like what computer and machine learning does best it replicates the thinking process of how we create art to a very technical and defined standpoint so if there's anything off like you know we're seeing AI art that has authors or artists stamp on them still when it's being juxtaposed and kind of Picasso together and you can still see the signature images yeah watermarks on it which is one way to kind of combat some of this but you know it's only a matter of time we're talking in the matter the last six

months and there seems to be like an infinite amount of AI generators that's popping up every day improving the formula that that slowly is you know the goal is to replicate a creative thinking of a human right the same way that we go to Google which is in a way starting with AI and references and then processing through our mindset and expressing it you know some some nerd behind a computer eventually is gonna Define that in the algorithm and get closer and closer to what we Define as a creative process sort of right but right now it's going very technical it's going to the extreme of literally copying something and mismatching it and not being very good at hiding it just yet but we're talking about the infancy if anything of this was a kid learning how to do uh to Doodle right so in a matter of years how scary would it be

uh how how I won't be able to even distinguish between the original artists and a copy of the artist's work in his style yeah I think um that's like another argument about AI that is like one of the biggest Hot Topics as well is like how you know does it like does it replicate the human creativity the same way and like it digests information and reference right like that that whole debate and again like I feel like with this particular one I have to say like I am no expert on AI so like again I can only I can only kind of particularly yeah like speculate and and mimic like arguments that I've seen online between the two like between people that have been more well read on the subject that I have um yeah and also but I will say this and this is something that I think is roughly true is that you know ai's Ai and the way they digest information is

objective you know it's binary right it's code to them um and there's no intent on how they digest the information we feed it and it spits out right there's no feeling behind it there's no and there's no like why did we digest this information did we like it for a specific the machine like it for a specific reason it's just outputting the information that you give it versus humans are subjective right like the things that we ingest like we like it we we I'm I'm taking in this information because um I like the way that this color looks and this shape reads against this value or whatever right in like a personal experience yeah yeah and also in combination like with what you said right like my personal experience my background how I grew up right like Etc like maybe how I'm feeling that day um so humans are very subjective with how we not only output but input information into ourselves and that and I feel like that's like a huge difference right like the intent behind uh why we why we do something versus

just um and I think you see this with with AI art right like it doesn't it's not intentional it it just does what you feed it you know yeah um so that's yeah that's a huge difference and again like I that that whole argument like there's good there if I if I say that and and you could have like a thousand different people on both sides that will say I'm wrong about this and that and you're probably right right but again like I this is just what I understand about it and at very least I understand humans to an extent uh yeah and and again like you know another thing too we're terrible at memorization um AI is not that way at all right like AI well once you feed it something it will it hasn't now and but you know with humans I mean [ __ ] we can't even like we can't even memorize like phone numbers for longer than 10 seconds you know when we first get them uh introduced to us like so yeah you know the difference between

human uh creativity and output versus AIS I I feel like it you know it seems like an obvious answer that the two are different um but for some reason like there's like this feeling that it isn't and that's I feel like that's kind of concerning um that people think that it's already like does it does things the same way that a human would which is just like not true yeah I I I I can't possibly be that a machine does something the same way a human does right when we're so flawed and different and from Individual to individual um yeah it's the oldest argument of you know every uh uh every sci-fi movie that you ever um look at has always been about Perfection versus imperfection of humans AI versus Humans right but also the the question of uh can can AI uh evoke

emotion right that's the missing factor to to what makes AI a perfect replication of humankind right and um and a lot of those good Sci-Fi movies eventually the blind gets so blurred where these memories are kind of you know like are are kind of import into their brains in the same way like this is the T to the the points that you're putting like just to put Place Devil's Advocate I feel it's like it's just another programmers uh challenge to input randomization flaws but also uh I mean in a way the internet does have uh the ability to learn our personalities you go on Instagram you go on Facebook I mean they're pretty much telling you what what we want to buy next without even thinking about it they hear jacuzzi in one office conversation

and suddenly I'm seeing all these hot tubs right and uh I think we're already at a point where you know who Michael shinde who who's Brandon is already figured out in the Google Facebook database in a very good way so like if I was a programmer trying to perfect this the next maybe down the Trello board is to kind of like how can I make art in the eye of Michael shinde I mean they're kind of doing that in a perfected way but now it's like how do I make a heart in the flaws of Mike ocean day uh given new personality that you taken and showing all my perspective errors yeah perspective errors not just technically but just you know what is your experience in the last six months that might have changed your understanding of of things right and they can relate not just you but

compare it to basically billions of people around the world that went through a similar experience and and still be able to output something uh breathtaking like I'm seeing air and it's flaws of being so perfect basically as in a very technical artist taking a stab at a subject right but you know it's presenting like any tool Avenues in a click of a button varieties that I didn't think about right just by playing by a few seconds and like you said you know just like any user that is good at being very um uh absolute being very defined being very uh intentional right in in their word input I mean the more description the more descriptive you are the more understanding of the AI

generation that you're getting in terms of result the the best people are the ones that are like basically starting to uh get to the lens of the camera and the focal like all like very technical crazy detail right yeah you have to like learn the language right of the AI right it's a it's it's you're trying to learn you're learning to communicate with a new entity yes and that takes time yeah that takes time and like anybody that takes time doing something that you know the people who put more time into are naturally going to get better but so this is the scary thing is that you're seeing people who are seeing the potential or accepting you know that it's here but also you're also grabbing while having a viral moment with the general consumer who are just generating selfies and having fun with it and you're basically uh giving resources for the next iPhone I mean the reason why iPhones are coming

out every year is that so many people use it so many people are buying into it and then the the the the device gets stronger and better and nobody Squints that I when they're spending basic a thousand dollars each year on a phone but whenever a PlayStation 5 comes out 600 suddenly becomes too much right so with the same mentality I'm seeing with air that it's grabbing everybody even Adobe I was watching uh reading this article that they they basically uh can't beat him so join them mentality they're they're they announced saying that they're uh making available of their stock images right as part of AI art in their own way um and and I can slowly see like I the ethical thing here is like the big image companies like art station I mean are giving up on awesome yeah art station already gave up on that like I think you

know the okay so what you you said that I because I'm not aware of this right but you said that adobe is allowing their stock images to be used in the data set yeah let me pull it up and we can read it together um yeah sure um I think if that is the case like I don't have a problem with that um I think that that's actually a good thing because I mean again because like presumably everybody that contributed to that stock photo database was either compensated or like you know Adobe owns the rights to them in some sort of way right so right right so that so I think that that's the way to go right like that that is a a way that I would be okay with if if you if you had trained a data set on Adobe stock and put out an AI model with that yeah right then I would play around with that I think that that's that's a good way to to start moving towards um again but with like the art station stuff right where we that yeah you combine that for a bunch of artists are raising their hand and saying hey I

don't want to do that you know I don't want to be there that's problematic so it is in their main thing right now in art station I gotta read more into this and I can pull the article up so that we can be exact is that when you sign up for our station is that [ __ ] where there's an agreement of everything you upload is ours and therefore you can't really go back like that that's the whole argument right now right uh and to kind of push back on this I'm not fully aware I'm not fully aware of that but I read it somewhere so let me make sure foreign yeah there's like a huge thing on our station right now where people are getting really pissed off oh yeah of course and also like the Silence of art station on this subject right it's a crisis um um because you see like I mean I saw the other day right like in the in the market store Marketplace um this this profile and I'm not gonna name the name but like it was selling it's it is selling quote-unquote reference packs of AI art for like two

bucks or whatever you know and and obviously those yeah um and obviously those those images are you know they're using other artists uh work to generate those Concepts right and then he's trying to make money off of it um well if I can relate to the 3D which I think is a very close approximation uh in 3D we have the same technique as kind of what you guys do in photobashing it's called kit bashing right we take 3D assets we kind of clop it together and I've been seeing that too like people take assets from bot stuff and just put it into an asset pack and sell it as if they create it from their own and there's no regulation like if anything no one cares about it um where they should because you usually pick up these things and I'm sure these guys would find that their asset got torn apart and sold for pieces uh and it's a huge violation of

copyright issues but here's the thing man like this is what I hate about it and games and we're talking about the App Store like the the the the the biggest Marketplace in the digital realm right you make it number one in the App Store you're made for for life right and how many games have we seen ripped off in the top ten like I see it over and over like I was just talking about this with uh Fall Guys right stumble dudes or something what was it stumble um I was making fun of it it's basically a huge rip off a Fall Guys right but fall guys is only for PC for Nintendo but you know they never made it immobile and these guys took that same game it looks exactly the same the course is exactly the same they change a few formula and they're the number one game in in the App Store yeah and no one's coming

at them okay yeah it's called stumble guys and uh that that's that's that's the marketplace so I I have no hope right if full gains are being ripped off well-known name we're not talking about any time it was like the number one game of 2021 being ripped off in the mobile market right for artists like no one [ __ ] cares unless it's like Renaissance art or that's the but you know what Renaissance are is all in the public domain so like that's actually okay to use right like yeah that's that's the crazy part you know um but but you know another thing too that's very concerning is like stable diffusion when they put they they're making a a model that will do the same thing what stable diffusion can you just click there uh yeah stable diffusion is the company that is behind the AI yeah um actually well it's not stable diffusion I think it's it's open AI which is the owner of stable diffusion um and stable diffusion is the actual AI

itself right so open AI is creating a um music version of of the of of the AI right so like yeah but but with one major difference is that they are keeping copyrighted music out of the data set which is something that they refuse to acknowledge or do with stable diffusion which the image generator right so and and what and the main difference between the two things is that the music industry is heavily heavily regulated and they will sue the hell out of you if you put if you infringe on artists they got muscle yeah they have muscle right versus you know we do not and that's that's the that's the main difference you know so you're totally right um yeah I mean here's a huge opportunity where our station which is owned by Epic right um can make a stand and make it known and be protective but here's the problem man like Epic

stole Pub G I mean like they're in the business of borrowing yeah stuff right and uh the reason why they're silent is first of all no one knows how to react to this I mean I think as artists we we formed a opinion very quickly because we we're kind of more use and more sensitive to this type of thing of our stealing right um and what's disappointing is our station is owned by Epic that they haven't they've been kind of radio silent and the only conversation I've seen is that people digged into the end user agreement the EULA and basically have given their rights over to Art station for public and commercial use or whatever basically not they can do whatever they want with whatever we upload which is you know the oldest uh

with like because you know how like Facebook people get worried about Facebook having a similar thing with the images there but it has to do with like their ability to share images on posts and stuff like I wonder if that has some sort of technical contingency attached to it where it's like they have to put that in there in order to like put it up on the banners yeah yeah you know I don't know I have to dig into that too because yeah like I think whoever I think as artists is like stop drawing for right now you know the argument is very simple like by now I think if you're a concept artist of High Caliber and like that guy that you were kind of referencing um what's his name what which is Greg Greg Rutkowski yeah like the number one guy that people seem to be replicating his art or using him as a reference in the style of he should be in there with his lawyer looking at the end user agreement and like where the [ __ ]

is my R being replicated and [ __ ] Sue art station's ass it's like it because it's cutting his resource to live right like it's basically plagiarism to the Max and uh I'm surprised that hasn't happened just yet like any other industry like you said in the music industry it would be day one on the front news like someone already would have done something you know Billy Joel Miley Cyrus have a sued art station for copying their music right and that's scary the music thing is something I didn't even think about but is it such a natural because music itself especially pop songs are so formulaic a computer can totally generate a similar thing you know yeah but like uh yeah like you said like art Arts ass is kind

of left unprotected right now we don't really have a lot of muscle I mean whole gains are being copied and people are just choking it off it's like oh that's that's gonna be the crazy thing right like when when AI is going to be able to just like digest an entire code for a game or something like that and just like output something spit it out spit it out like an Abomination that's oh yeah I'm sure yeah they can do it now I mean starting the way that humans did with the NES just to Top Down Easy Sprites they can replicate and create rules and slowly it's gonna evolve um I mean that's the path we're taking now I mean now it just seems like there's a in definite uh resource of art out there for for AI to kind of generate I mean I I heard the next thing I heard was obviously 3D art you know 3D generated art um yeah yeah Nvidia is working on

something um that I saw the other day where they're they're able to like create 3D assets um and do iterations on those assets and combine different like I I'll have to send it to you offline but like it's crazy yeah they're they're actively working towards 3D creation as well on the AI side of course yeah yeah it's it's just being attacked on all things right now like not just our music just everything creative writing and the thing right and the thing is is you know it's us right now because uh we're so publicly available right like if you go to Google you can find any artists images that you want or whatever and and so like you know art is going to be one of the first things to you know I guess or like have a downfall uh or a crazy panic but then you know who knows what it's going to be next it's going to

be the programmers Engineers um you know whatever what have you right like the limits of AI if it's continues on this like acceleration um is it's we're gonna lose for sure because yeah right now that's why you have to like accept that we have to incorporate it um yeah and that's my hope right like my my hope I guess my ultimate hope is that um you know the like the entertainment industry as a whole um values human creativity and and and products right um and that AI can be used in tandem with with humans to create products right but ultimately like humans are still the ones driving the force um and you know like I've seen things like me as by keomiyazaki and Guillermo del Toro putting out statements about like their feelings on AI and how like they're wholly against it right so like hopefully more uh CR like you know

creators that are that have large audiences and and large pull in the industry are K are like you know side with that right where it's you know they they they value The Human Experience and they and and see that AI is you know maybe a a good tool for helping work process but it's not going to be something that we want to um like move towards as a as a full replacement for like human interaction yeah I mean like the the here's the problem right the main problem is there's not a united front not all artists are against it right now right I would say the majority of artists aren't against it and we're kind of like in the niche right well I'm in the middle in terms of like because of that reason it's we lost like there's a visit buddy really voicing yeah we have these

prominent figures but you know that doesn't seem to be doing anything uh because everybody seems to be on board uh doing this uh to cut the the Venom from the snake right you have to go to the source the source of the AI art is that is sourcing uh unsolicited well uh unsanctioned art from the original artist that's the problem right and I I think everyone agrees to that that that's [ __ ] that people are being it's the machine is being fed original art that artists themselves don't have a say there's no ownership to it right uh which is funny because a year ago all we were talking about is ownership of digital art with nft I know right you know it's such a but it's it dudes I feel like I've been walking into alternate universes every [ __ ] year since covet man last year

all we were talking about the protection and uniqueness of digital art and why it's important and why it's valuable and now we're literally taking gazillions of arts and feeding into Machines of un and and spitting it on the other end and everyone's into a machine where nobody owns the output yes like like I think what will stop this [ __ ] it's taking a prominent artist and hopefully is this Greg dude and perhaps I can talk to him and basically rally behind him to pressure uh Google I I think they're you know our station seems to be like basically art station man but Google as well a major uh image sourcing site that is uh commercializing right uh there are but YouTube has the same here here's the thing there are

things in place to fight this because on YouTube you can't just take people's art and put it as part of your like splash screen and stuff you get flagged for music well music is definitely a huge thing but you get flagged for for any art that that isn't sanctioned or people can report it really quickly right and usually they're pretty good at taking that down so it'll take a prominent artist to do the same with the major website like art station or Google to to basically scare these companies here's the weird thing about the AAR is there's like these faceless like ghosts companies you know what I mean there's no like I haven't seen an interview from the creator of mid-journey talking about like the Brilliance the AI art right somehow I'm in like this obscure Discord channel right with these like it feels like the dark web man I'm typing all these random

questionable sometimes I see like questionable like uh uh uh verbiage right that's being typed I was like what the [ __ ] are you creating over here yeah yeah like underground telephiliac [ __ ] right and it's just like all everyone in the room not talking to you there they're just trying to generate art for whatever project they're using it's kind of it's kind of fiendish right now but I I haven't yet seen a representative from any of these AI or talking about you know they're all hidden you know it's super mysterious right like even Adobe came out and said like Hey we're going to embrace it right but who are these original mid-journey dudes like shouldn't we shouldn't they be like I don't know much about about mid Journey bro it's like [ __ ] weird the sex six six seven months has been so weird like these kind of ghost companies coming out of nowhere suddenly so you know with any Innovation you're able to kind of see like these Stepping

Stones of where they got to where they are I feel overnight this thing just just dropped right okay imagine on the internet imagine it's like instead of the Ford Model T like like the first car instead it was just the Tesla Like the Model S yeah they want Tesla it works check this out AI is amazing isn't it yeah they have no stop signs no legs freaking weird and no one's questioning it man that's the weirdest thing it's uh like every program like what it's Photoshop you know Photoshop used to be called no one right 2.2 right it wasn't until recently they just adopted the year because there were so many iterations in the past 20 30 years how the [ __ ] did air get so Advanced like you can blame it on the technology this is what AI is they can compute a like an irrational speed right and be

able to but how the hell are they being able to pull all these resources it's money and data sets bro yeah yeah and it's crazy that there isn't anyone stepping in it's like where are you getting this like even if Google was got downloaded all their images ever generated like why isn't Google so pissed off at like yo where'd you get all this image like Google itself took 20 30 years and like Facebook to generate and have those resources of images to use as far as I know mid-journey is not owned by Facebook or Google like how did they come up with all these images and how how how how are they getting away with it and these major companies aren't stepping in and my my thinking and this conspiracy theory is that somehow well they're benefiting from it for whatever reason it's going towards a goal that is aligned with theirs and

that's why they're not fighting it right because if Google was actually concerned about how did they take all this these images from our database without us basically it feels like a security breach right it'll be one thing if Google came out with Google Air come in and generate art right and say well obviously they have images it even makes sense where art station came out uh you know with art station AI generator right but it's like these obscure companies where I have no idea where they came from suddenly have all the images in the world at the I mean yeah I'm like I'm sure like larger companies have that will have a benefit to them right for these for their AIS to succeed and grow um I mean you know for certain right that the that AI is as is is not is mostly going to be

I guess harmful to a human Workforce right except for those that are in higher positions um so I guess yeah I don't know I don't think it's like a crazy conspiracy to assume that that companies will benefit from it well like you mentioned before the Baseline of a concept artist they're gone if you're a junior concept artist depending on what you do right like I I like for example right now it's AI is um they're not good at drawing and sketching like sketching yeah like so for example if you needed like an artist to like draw over uh a block mesh for example yeah um AI well I don't see AI doing that right now or like an artist or an artist or whoever if whoever using a prompt to like try and be better at an artist that's sketching over a blockout so stuff like that will still be useful because that's that's like pure design it's not necessarily about like creating a beautiful image it's solving a problem and

um yeah right right now I just don't see it being able to do that now that might change right obviously I can't say for a definitive fact that I'm not gonna eat my words a little bit later but as of right now I can't do that um but what it can do is replace the people who make you know really good marketing art or like movie posters for example right or whatever right that kind of stuff will be easily replaced and in terms of like getting like a mostly finished product and then just like having to like apply fixes over the top um another thing too like an example is I'm very curious to see how storyboards oh yeah fans I can't do hands are very complex objects right it just can't like what's going on there um because it doesn't understand an anatomy understands like the shapes and color and value but it doesn't understand what's happening there um but like like storyboard artists for example right like that's such an interesting profession in the face of AI because

you know would it like could you even like do a prompt that would get you exactly this the what you're looking for from a storyboard right versus like a traditional storyboard artist who are notoriously quick um and have like really good shorthand and also like very expressive uh work right like I I really wonder like how people how the industry will approach that because I think my opinion is that storyboard artists are still could still be employed you know because they are very fast right and and you're gonna and they they also know exactly what you're you're gonna get right with each frame versus if you do an input um you have to like I guess write the input for each one or you could do a series I don't know it just seems like AI wouldn't be able to replicate the workflow as efficiently yeah I mean like this is where I think it's really relative to the other fields of discipline that uh like mocap and mega

scans and 3D scans oh yeah it takes a it still Falls in line with the design or uh like you said a very specific problem to solve and that that to me I feel like is more of like a senior role anyways like a senior role to be able to kind of creatively think through an issue whereas Junior roles are more about like copy this do that being instructed which AI does really well if you can I think um anything like technical right like technical skills like I mean say like I have a feeling saying goodbye to having to do UVS and stuff like that is going to be quickly approaching yeah yeah like uh I mean in a lot of cases already is but there seems to be basically a challenge to concept artists coming out of school of Baseline you got to be badass

you either have to elevate your game or uh you're gonna be out of a job for at least a good five years before you can show some design skills to talk to the AI and give directions and creative uh input on something yeah and that's been something I've been like kind of struggling with too about how to approach this with my students because you know with with it developing so quickly and also changing but also the legality of things being kind of unclear um yeah right like how do you tell your students that they may have to they will most likely have to adopt this workflow that they've never had to use before or it's like totally new to everybody right um It's A disruption right it's it's a total disruption yeah A disruption of like the entire workflow that I have been teaching which is like the traditional way of working um but yeah I mean I I think it's very

it's gonna be something that I'm gonna have to start teaching very soon or like at least like bringing up in the in the in the semester right at some point are you kind of uh seeing how other professors or concept artists that are teaching right now how are they addressing this besides you know Del Toro being against it like how are they being flexible with this um new technology that's coming out well I I think like I've talked to maybe like one or two other teachers about it and they just said that they they're restricting their students from using it right now because you know like we we have to remember that this is not this is a learning this is a learning environment right and so we're we're trying to act like better our skill sets that will you know let's say like we have to adopt AI into the workflow like you still are going to need the skill sets that we teach you

here that which are traditional skill sets you know um that will that will help you to you know better the AI image output or whatever if that's what we have to do you know however the workflow is um I think I think restricting the use of AI in homework assignments is kind of a necessary step right um similar to like Photo bashing like you don't teach photobashing and to your students until they're like competent at values and and color and things like that and understanding like how like even how you would incorporate a photo into a painting and have it not look terrible and out of place uh so it's like it's just another tool set right like another step right like you do you teach them how to do thumbnails and then values and color and final and then after they know how to do it from hand then we can introduce like photos then 3D then and now I imagine it's going to be AI right like now that you understand how to build an image yourself we can also

teach you how to do the shortcut version which you'll probably have to apply your these other skill sets now on top of well the interesting about um the interesting thing about lenza it's not only last week right like I said every week there seems to be a new problem that AI is solving all right uh like uh like coming back at a criticism of it I felt like two three weeks ago or even a month ago that you know there were criticism about like yeah it's great you can type random things right but the main problem is you can't feed it anything like an original image and then it is able to kind of spit out varieties and then here comes lenza right an original image I I haven't used the app but I imagine you take a selfie and then it just [ __ ] around with it right and then outputs in the style of or how exactly does it work yeah I haven't used the app itself but I do know that there's uh what's called like image to image outputs which is like you put in an image and like you give your

prompt and any other like ramifications that you wanted to or like specifications that you wanted to include right so like I want it in the style of Ghibli and Waterhouse whatever right like crazy whatever craziness you're looking for and then use and then it takes that image and it will apply all those things over it as like a general and then you can like adjust the strength of the guideline right so like if I have like a picture of my face um I can like push a slider or like input a number that will like say I want it to look exactly like closer to this or like you have more freedom to you know move away from like the likeness or whatever like you know there's there's parameters for all that kind of stuff um again I don't know exactly how it works with the lens app but that's roughly how it works within stable stable diffusion yeah uh so I so it's amazing that that within the short time frame that it's allowing customization to that level and I think it's Gonna Keep exploring that the the the next

there's so many avenues that we can take this I know we have limited time but there's one thing I definitely want to talk about and I want to hear your thoughts about which is uh again man this is conspiracy theory but it's definitely like the turn of event the last two years where remote working has pushed everyone to be in their home and now air and now I for sure think there's a lot of influx of quote unquote artist right coming into the industry where they definitely don't need to be around people where they don't have to show too much of a working progress and they can get away if they know what they're doing with generated art as their own and get paid as we're seeing uh not at just a hobbyist level but as a salary level taking jobs from traditional artists uh and basically conning their way through

a career so this is the next topic I mean the next Crisis I think one of the biggest crisis that's already happened and I'm sure people already got jobs at the very least freelance right um for for for doing this what are your thoughts about that like I know we haven't played we're still playing catch-up like you said you don't know what the impact is yet so you're already starting to think about how to incorporate this into your teaching as a tool that is sanctioned but yeah we're knowing that people are not going to leverage any drawing skills and just going to use this 90 finished art pass it off their own and basically get paid you know a full salary or a full Project's worth I um I find it hard to imagine like a full salary position being replaced like by an image because

like if that's the case right like let's say that is something that would happen I would just say that like as an employer like rather than replace your artist with somebody that is new just tell your artist to like start incorporating AI right because then you have somebody that you already know plus well but do you think I guess before we go into deeper like do you think there's anything wrong about a guy who just have ai generated or applying for a job not saying that it's AI generated because I know that's happening and and being able to kind of I think that's problematic especially because of how how loose the the laws are right now right like that that can not only land the the person that's providing the AI art in trouble it could also land the commercial he's selling the product too in trouble like in the future right because again we don't know where this law like we don't know where the laws are going to lean towards and if you're selling a product which could later put that company in liability

right okay so that's yeah infringement that's that's very concerning um and so that I I do think if you don't disclose it that's that's not good um I and and I do think that um like you know I I've done like a few book covers for example that I could definitely see if AI was out and I would have probably used it in the workflow like you know because again like it's good at making pretty pictures and that's when what is a book cover emotional accepts a promotional that's that's trying to grab the attention of a viewer from a bookshelf right um and then I would paint over it or do whatever but that those type of jobs like while while the best book covers are very skilled and like have amazing design work on them um there's a lot of small time authors and and stuff like that that are looking to get a good looking cover but don't have the biggest budget and why wouldn't you why wouldn't you try this Avenue where you could get like an AI

um prompter to like get you an output that is you know like maybe 90 or something percent that you're what you're looking for um and you know maybe that's good enough right like and it cost you like a not a lot of money um so instead of hiring a traditional artist that's going to take longer and cost you more so that's a downside for sure but again I think the takeaway from this is if you're if you're working right now like you should be like keeping up with the news of AI uh keeping your it's keeping tabs on it and like potentially like you can like experiment with the solutions as well because I do think that it's going to be a mandatory part of our process at some point whether you like it or not um and it's better to be on like the side of you know better safe than sorry than being left in the dust yeah because again like you know especially with Commercial Art like digital artists and

things like that we're always pushing the boundaries of of you know software and Tech and all that stuff and and while this is while AI is an extreme step in that direction like a very extreme step it is still a a tool a radical tool but you know with with proper regulation a tool set in our at our disposal and I think that we should consider very very much consider that we're going to have to incorporate it otherwise yeah it's just not good it could it could look very bad um for those that don't and and I say that with a heavy heart too because like you know I I like what I do and I like the way that I get to do it right now and I think that AI is you know takes takes the joy and the the process out of of that that kind of work right and that's sad um but if that's the way that it's gonna go in terms of like making money from

your art at least then we kind of have to accept that but it doesn't mean we shouldn't push for ethical um like ethical guidelines to be in place on the corporations that produce these AIS yeah I think the first first order of business is like you know where's the sources coming from and those sourcing needs to take liability of uh providing it and art station or Google like needs permission from the original author I mean that that alone I mean if you just look at the tech and just work backwards from that of how it's it's a machine that's being fed these things and cut off the number of resources that it's feeding into it then the tool is going to suck right at a certain point it's not going to have millions of resources or at the very least it's licensing you know Library resources like how Adobe is doing it correctly right um I I don't like the fact that our

station is being super silent because I feel like most of these are are being generated from their Source right um or sources like them uh and they are not doing anything about it which is uh basically misunder representing their number one client okay and man it really does suck that we have no voice I mean it just reminds me again you know why I like talking about this stuff uh because you know five years ago it was a union thing it was overworking and crunch time and then that got popular right and then now we seem to always be facing a crisis that reminds us it's like yeah dude you know we don't really have a voice in any of this [ __ ] ever uh we're always behind the curve and

um I want to thank you Michael um for coming on it was a great introduction to Air and I think it's something I probably have to revisit numerous times in the next two to five years no not to say that you weren't you know your knowledge and your experience alone in your story was phenomenal like you're giving me perspective about things because I'm just sitting back like typing all these words in there uh without any repercussions right but I didn't know every word I'm typing I'm killing a concept artist actually stabbing me in the chest yeah I was like oops uh here's another stab Moon um so uh this is the time where I actually shut up Michael uh to tell the good people how to find you uh to con continue the conversations with you on social media even uh where to follow you and all that uh yeah well let's see I'm pretty dark

on social medias these days actually I'm trying to like move away from it but um yeah I keep stealing your art yeah those those damn companies stealing my art um uh I'm on Facebook you can just search me Michael shinde um I if you want to hear more about AI stuff and ramblings then that's definitely where to go because that's where I'm posting everything um and then art station as well unfortunately you know with all the things that we talked about with art station that's still where my majority of my work is um are there any thoughts of you moving away from it does it give you coffee now I've lightly considered it but man I don't know it I would hope that they just come to a reasonable solution before I would have to like move because that's such a pain you know yeah it is um the other solution would just be like going back to using my own site which is a bummer or printing It Out Printing it out it's sending it via the mail um yeah that's about it though all right man well I want to thank you

uh for coming on it's always enjoyed talking to you see you guys everybody see you guys next week [Music] [Music]