Make An Online Game That Lasts 30 Years

We're currently the the oldest continuously operated MMO RPG out there. It's roughly €25 million revenue around€ 10 million profit um that we make per year.
Do you think this is something that can be realistically achieved by small indie teams today? This is a conversation with Benjamin Suka, a part of the management team at Zipsoft, a game studio that makes MMOs and has grown to over a 100 people in Z. Benjamin has been a longtime member of the Tibia team and represents the company externally while also steering new projects in house.
The first server where you could actually play was in January 1997
and it's still under active development today.
We've actually got a um Guinness World Record for being the first MMO RPG um on on a mobile phone.
That is absolutely crazy and raises the question, how the hell did they manage to keep it alive for so long? There's actually no real MMO RPGs out there that proved that um creating a second part enlarges your community.
And I'm very curious to hear that story.

Hopefully in detail now cuz we have a lot of time.
I actually joined Sipsoft in uh 2007, which is a few years um after the creation of the game of TBI. Our four founders when they actually started, they started the game in 1995. They didn't actually want to build a commercial game at first. So it was a hobby. The main idea they had back then was they had been playing Alma uh single player on PC and games like that. The internet had come up back then. It was like uh you had internet at universities, not at home. They thought, wouldn't it be cool um if you could play games like this on the internet and back then there were only mods. Um so multi-user dungeons, games that you could play with a text interface. Uh so you would say like use sword go north, go west, go east and you move through there and they were quite big and that was multiplayer already. So you were playing with other players and but it was all text based and also there was no graphical um output or input or whatever. And so so the the basic idea

was to create a game where you had a graphical interface and you could play an RPG uh online with other players. And when they kind of started doing it there there were no books. There was nothing on it. So there was one single book on TCP IP and that was it. That was the only book you could get anywhere. And there there was no things in the internet that you could look for. No tutorials, no chat, GPT, no websites, no nothing. So they basically had to learn it all on on their own. Right.
This were the very very early times where there were no no game engines and
Exactly. Yes. Exactly. It was all it was all self-written. Yes. The first server where you could actually play was in January 1997. That's when the the server went live on on the uh university network on the university server and they uh they had the the server standing there and they had to work at the university so that the university would allow them to run the server there. So um one of the founders uh um had to work as a um IT help guy and do jobs for his

professor and uh in exchange he was allowed to run the server there.
I see. I see. Okay. So we have a rough image in mind for which kind of time we're talking about. So you said um for founders and the idea was just let's make basically some kind of text adventure that you can play a graphical interface.
Graphical interface. I see.
Yes. Exactly. And that was in 1997. So if you if you go back your gaming timeline what was running on your computers back then it was very very limited. Right. So um there there wasn't very much that you could do on computers. Um gaming wise there there were some cool games out already but it was all single player obviously and a few multiplayer games but nothing that was on the internet because um there was no games there yet.
And when they uh when the when the game came out first so actually Yahoo created own categories. So back then you used Yahoo. Google wasn't there yet. So you had to use Yahoo uh or AOL um which was big back then as well America online.

And um players would uh find the game uh through categories. So you could find things through categories. And when when the game took off, Yahoo created their own category um for for online games because they uh there was no word for it yet. So they weren't called MMO RPGs yet. Um they were actually called GMDs. That's like the beginning of uh of the genre. Um it was a Gmod, a graphical multi-user dungeon. That's how it all started. So did TB essentially help define that whole wave or genre or how?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean there were like multiple teams worldwide that had a similar or the same idea. So um Ultima Online um the team had they basically had the same idea and created a game as well in in the same time span. They came out a little bit later but they were commercial title already. So that was a commercial team backed with money and everything. um and and this was uh for students basically creating a game and uh pushing that out and seeing what happens and um as I said at that time they didn't think of it being a success

and you know being being viable to to have a company around it and um that it took quite a while until the company then actually was founded. So 1997 game comes out and they were still studying and when they finished their studies in 2001 you know their parents would say like um so so what are you going to do? are you going to uh get a good job with payment because you studied? And they'd say, "No, um we we'd like to try this game thing, right?"
Mhm.
And their parents went like, "That's that's a very bad idea. It's a really a really bad idea."
I mean, parent parents still say that now. And I I can only imagine how it was back then. Yeah.
Yes. Especially because 2001 um you might remember um there was a there was a big um crisis back then. So the uh the net bubble burst back then. So you had all these um internet companies um that were hyped and getting VC money and uh building products that weren't there and that whole bubble burst in 2001. So um

back then the whole internet um everything that you did in there was basically paid with advertisement money and the whole market collapsed from basically one day to the next it was gone. Um, so the the classic um uh thing you would have done, you know, have a website and have ads on it and then people would come on your website, play the game and look at the ads and then you get money through that. It didn't exist anymore when they founded the company. So what they had to do is they had to find a new business model as well in addition to to founding a company and and launching the game. And uh so so what they did and I think that is uh it's still it's still an advice that I often give to newcomers. um something they did they sat down and they said um we'll we'll we'll do this we'll found the company and we'll give the game a chance and we'll give ours we'll give us 2 years and uh in that time we have to earn a certain amount of money per person and if that doesn't work then we'll quit and we'll go and take those uh great paid consultant jobs. Also a

great strategy to get parents on your side. If you're like absolutely we'll try this for two years and
here are the goals and the deadlines and if it doesn't work then we'll do whatever you want.
The motivation is definitely higher to support you. That's right. Yes. But I think it's a, you know, it's a good thing to have a plan B and uh to also not underestimate the effort that you have to put in it and um to to also to be honest to yourself, you know, um this is the amount of time I'm putting in it and my time is worth something, right? Um I could be working somewhere else and I could be being paid for it or I could do something else and um if I if I sink in hundreds of hours and then at the end I I get some money, right? It might work out. I might get some money. But if you divide it by the hours, it might be a really bad rate and you should keep that in mind. I mean, uh, at the end, you know, it's it's it's it's also totally fine if something is a hobby. I mean, that's cool. I mean, um, if you if you start and you do games and you say, you know, I'm going to try it out and I just want to have a game on Steam or

something or on my phone and and show my friends and say, "Hey, I made this." And, uh, you push it out and and a few people download it. Because that's what's going to happen nowadays. the the most viable outcome is that perhaps a 100 people download your game and and uh that's it and and nothing more will happen and
and and you kind of need to be okay with that. Um if it's if it's a hobby and if it's not a hobby then you should treat it um like a business like a job and uh and not like a hobby. Right.
Right. So to to go back to the to the main story they did exactly so your founders did exactly that. They were like, "We will have two years to make this amount of money, and it seems like they
they made it." Yes, that's right.
They made it.
That's right. So, what they did was they had to find a new business model. So, what they did was they they had a community of players playing already and they didn't want to take anything away from them. So, basically what they said is you can play this part for free and everything that we will add on in future um will require a subscription fee.

Basically, a premium model which which didn't exist back then yet. That was completely new. and uh they they launched that into the game and everything that was added was in the paid section and everything that was there already was in the free section. A lot of people were willing to pay money for it. They also did surveys with the players back then and asked them how much they could charge for it because they had no idea what you could charge for a game like that and um that that took quite a quite a while to then take off. But after the two years there was enough there and um I think what was um one of the most interesting things so until then it's just these four people right it's just four guys that have created this and at some stage they noticed we can't handle all the things we have to do um just with us four so we can't program a life death game and um do customer support and do the business and all those things at once. It just doesn't work. So they had to hire somebody and uh the first person they looked for was a customer support um

agent to answer all the emails that came in from players
because before that what they did is you know they they had a problem the server was down or something and um then hundreds of emails will come in and uh so they sat down and they would say like okay so so what can I do? Uh we can we can answer all those emails right or or we can fix the bug.
Yep. So they uh deleted all the emails and fixed the bug.
Yeah.
And um you can do that um because or back then you could do it because um expectations weren't high. You know, people didn't know what an online service is yet and uh the the expectations were weren't that high. People were just glad that something like that existed and there was no advertisement. People just came on their own because it was so new. Um
so the first person they hired was a customer support representative and he's still here at the company. He's uh still customer support but he's the lead now of the of the team.
Nice. Are the founders still at TIP by the way is it Chipsoft or Tipsoft?
Tipsoft. Yeah. Chipsoft. I'll tell you the story about why it's called that

way. Um there's an interesting story as well and it actually has to do with this founding phase.
Okay.
All right. Now um from the four founders, three are active in the company and one is outside of the company, but they all still hold um their equal shares on the company.
Awesome. I see that.
Um Right. So the um the company when was founded they also needed a name. Now um before that they have been making one game together already which is called strike and we still play it once a year. So we meet up and we play the game once a year
which is cool. It was uh um each player controls four tanks and has a headquarter and you have a randomly generated map um with cities in it and uh you can conquer the cities with your tanks and then you fight against each other and the goal is to eliminate every other player in the in the in the game. It was really cool and we still had back then when they founded the company they wanted to have something that could do other things as well. So they made SIP

soft out of it. Now why is it called SIP?
So it's called SIP because the university had a program where they uh spent money to build up uh rooms with computers in it where students could work on computers because not everybody had computers back then. And this program was called computer invest program. So the rooms um had a sign outside with CIP on it and that's where the company name comes from. Um or as our players would say completely incompetent programmers. So they they shared a flat with a student and they had one room in there and the student lived there actually and they only came to work and she was so kind that she cooked for them sometimes because she I think they she felt a bit sorry for them that they were like nerds and hanging around in the room just working and coding day and night basically and and then it took quite a while until they actually moved out. Um um so so they started in one room basically and before that it was just um a basement and people working at home and then syncing

um was changing source code on discs and uh PCs with each other. So old school there was no g
Oh Jesus Christ. Oh I haven't even thought about that. No get Oh no.
Right. No GitHub. No Git. Um you had to do these things by hand. you had to talk with each other a lot more. Um there was version control of um um of course, but uh um you couldn't like change it over the internet because you didn't have internet at the moment.
So
So it was often sharing files on disk with each other.
You're making an online game, but you don't have internet.
Yes. Because it was so new, right?
So it's pretty cool.
Oh my god. Okay, that sounds interesting to say the least. after 2001. So, so the game starts growing and um it's making money, right? And the company's growing as well. And um
so the the company's growing means they're hiring more developers maybe or

more people
actually a technician was like um a content guy was the second guy. He's also stood the company makes content from the game.
Yes, exactly. He he basically he basically builds the map and the NPCs and writes the lore and the texts and the quests and things like that.
Um that's what they do at our company. I mean
you know this but um perhaps not everybody who's listening knows this. Um so there is no clear definition of jobs in the gaming industry and um basically every company handles it a little bit different than other companies. Yeah. Um there there are a few like concepts that are very similar at all companies. Um but um the the definitions of what you do at which company they vary and um so so um when we say a content designer and another company that might be a level designer, it might be um an environment artist. It it could be multiple things. It sort of depends on what uh the company puts into the job definition and

what they say we want the people to do exactly. And uh titles vary quite a lot in the in the games industry.
I see. I see.
Right. So the company's growing. Yes. They're hiring people. And uh so I joined in 2007. The company was about 20 people large when I joined the company.
Okay.
And what what did they bring you in for?
So I came in as a as a product manager for one of the newer games um they had. So they had Tibia which was um uh the PC MMO RPG and in 2003 um they launched a mobile MMO RPG running on mobile phones.
So the first game of that ran on a Seaman Sur C35. I don't know if you remember that. It has a monochrome display. It's running on Java. So they had a full-fledged MMO RPG running on mobile phones. Um okay. There weren't uh there weren't internet flat rates there yet for phones um in Europe. And you you

still paid per kilobyte to to get a dimension of um how early this was, right? Uh and and we've actually got a um Guinness World Record for being the first MMO RPG um on on a mobile phone for that.
Wow.
So, it's essentially like um running an MMO like on a calculator or something. Sort of how I imagined it. It's like
Yes. And it feels like that. Yes. And um so so that game they had they had a deal with the telecom at the beginning and um then they then Symbian came for mobile phones which was an interesting thing. So that was a um a more modern operating system and um
uh and then there was um uh at some stage later uh the iPhone came and the smartphones came and uh the whole market exploded right so so the game was there already before that market had existed and the game was mainly successful in Southeast Asia. Um so so what SIPOF does is perhaps to to understand how how this

works um we just put the games online and then we just see what happens and um so there's no plan there was no marketing we had no budgets that we spent there were there's no outside investors there's no publisher there's nothing
we just throw the games into um back then on a website and then uh with the mobile game you did need stores but um so you you threw it out on the market and you just look what happens and who downloads it where and if somewhere more people download it and then you go with that.
I see. And you came in as a product manager for for that for the for the very mobile game.
Yes. Exactly. Yes.
I see.
So So I had a technical background. Uh I um I've been working IT doing um um system administration for a large company um with um multiple um locations around Europe um um with you know SAP and lots of customers where you go and look at processes in the company and then optimize things for it which was uh interesting. Yes, of course. Um and uh

it paid well. Um, I had learned it, you know, it was I was I was up to a career there. And then, um, I had the offer to to switch and um, so I went to my parents as as as you do, right? And I said, um, so I've got this offer to work um, uh, at SIPOFT and uh, you know, do a product manager for games. And my parents said, why would you do that? Right? You've got a good paid job. You've got a career in front of you. It's all good, right? Wh why why
why are you going to a young company? it's, you know, it's all very insecure. Will it be making money next year? Who knows, right?
And, uh, but the decision was very easy for me. So, um, I said, "Of course, I'm going to do this, right?" And, um,
Mhm.
I went in there and, uh, uh, since then, not one year has been boring. Not one day has been boring. Every day is different. Every day has new challenges. There's nothing in creating games that is predictable. And, um, I think that is that is a great plus for for making

games. Um, it just doesn't get boring. Um,
I see. So, can can you paint a bit of a picture? What did a project manager do back then? Was it like people management or was it technical jobs? What was it like at the beginning?
It's it's like um wearing all hats at once. Um, so product managers are a company. Um, they they first thing is um they carry the responsibility for the strategy of the game. So they decide what is going to come into the game. Um how it's going to be made. They also carry the responsibility that the game runs as the online game, the service that it's um that it's reachable, that it it works. They uh back then they also did all the updates. We did the um protocol definitions. Um and we supervised the whole team working on the game. So
how the hell, sorry if I interrupted, but how the hell do you secure a job like that? Like is it's like we need somebody to manage this. Let's just bring in somebody who knows something roughly around.

Back then, yeah, back back then it was more like um do we think a person can, you know, is he going to be able to fulfill these things? Is he is he is he sharp? Can he can he switch between things quickly because that is one of the main feats you need is that you can switch between different topics very very quickly. And um do are you confident enough to to like tackle something that is bigger and larger than uh what your current knowledge is?
I see. How did how did they find you?
We hadn't known each other for for a while. We we went to the same school and um we knew each other a bit and um um I'd meet up with them from time to time and because I was working at a at a company and I had uh you know I was going to all these um other companies in Germany uh looking at their IT and consulting them. M
and they had never worked anywhere else.
Um so from time to time we would meet and they would tell me about the you know the company growth and how things are going and asking things like and you know do you think we should scale quicker? Um should we hire more people

and um so we talk about things like that and I I could give them advice that they had never got because they had never worked anywhere else.
So you have seen more companies from the inside than Yeah. Okay. That's that's valuable. Yeah.
Yeah. I see
and I think that's also what um made them interested and and when the position came up and they decided to hire people you know they they sort of me and went like okay um he he obviously knows processes he knows um he knows it which is not unimportant if you are doing an online game that you understand it
um um I I um I I hope I didn't say too many stupid things otherwise probably they wouldn't have asked me and um but but obviously it was like you know it was a complete new field for me as well. And I um um I started at zero with most of it. Um
um I was not a uh I'm not a learned programmer. Um I can program but um definitely not as good as a programmer, right? I have a I have an understanding of art, but I'm not an artist. So I'm

more generalist in many topics. Um and there's definitely uh tons of people that are a lot better in every field than me. I I think what um what makes this job and this role important is that you can speak with um everybody from the different um lines of craft and you understand their needs and you can formulate things in a way that they understand it because often if you have programmers talking with graphic artists um if if they're not technical enough um they just talk past each other and um you you need a you need a basic understanding of how every aspect of a game works. so that you can really collaborate properly.
Yeah.
And in bigger companies, that's what basically product managers or producers or people like that they they make sure that this happens um with specialists that are not very good in um the other topics in the game production line.
So your job is sort of to glue the

entire team together and
yes that that and and to give the direction, right? So um it's like a it's like a mix of a creative director um a producer and um and a technician.
Are there any fun stories from that time like what were those early times like for you? Um
there were there were a lot of very interesting things because I mean this was the first time I actually um worked in this industry you know I I was new there so um and and also in game uh creation and running a service and everything. So yeah, I made a lot of mistakes and so did the people on the team. So So one of the most important rules that we that we had for ourselves was it's always fine to to make a mistake. It's it's um it's it's necessary actually. The the important thing is you don't do it twice.
Um okay,
you shouldn't make the same mistake twice. Um you can have multiple other ones, right? But you shouldn't you shouldn't have the same one twice. And um so so one one thing that is uh really

dangerous in MMO RPGs is um it's called duping. It's something where players can uh basically use your protocol or the game or whatever um to um duplicate items in the game and uh with that they can um obviously create um wells in the game that they were not supposed to get um progress. And um
is this such a common problem that it has an official term or
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Is is there something other uh struggle with as well?
All all MMO RPGs um have this issue and all of them had it already in their histories.
Why is it doesn't sound like such a difficult problem? Can you explain why it's
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds it sounds like it's something that you should be able to to have under control, but uh it happens very easily um when you program um that you run into these issues. So um I'll give you an example from uh from TBIO or TBM that basically work the same. So um in uh in in these games it's like that that you have uh squares where

people run around. So um tiles where where the characters run around in the world
and uh you can place items onto the floor.
Mhm.
And the moment you place an item onto the floor, this item exists on the floor. Um so it was in your backpack before and then you put it onto the floor and now it is on the floor.
Yeah. Now I'll just give you a very very um easy example of something that could happen. Um so you take the item and you put it onto the floor and um while you put it onto the floor you send the command to the server that you are putting it on the floor again.
Right? So now two commands arrive at the server and say um place the item on the floor please.
And the server um says great I'll put an item on the floor. Great I'll put an item on the floor. Now, obviously, you should check this in the server. If the user has the item and it's gone and it's now on the floor, but um and there's hundreds of places like that where you can make mistakes. Um and oops. Um then you've got multiple items. Another very

easy one would be um you finish a quest and you go to the NPC and the NPC gives you reward item.
Mhm. Now you need a check in there that makes sure that you cannot repeatedly um go to this NPC and um give back the quest and get the re uh the reward item again and again and again.
Um and and uh this mistake is made very easily because um it's just a check that someone who's designing the quest forgets and then you got a duping bug. And those are the those are the nice ones still, right? Because they they're limited. So it gets more ugly if your storage duplicates or um things like that and um that creates a lot of damage and it creates a lot of manual work to fix because you obviously don't just want to reset everything for multiple days because it takes a while until you discover that people are abusing this. So what happens is someone discovers it
and the first thing he does is he checks if he can replicate it.
So he tries to do it again. Then he goes, "Oh wow, cool. This is working."

Awesome. Um, I'll create a second account.
That's the first thing I do.
Um, I move one valuable item over there and uh then I start duplicating it as right?
Um, and then I make a lot of money with that. And that's the first thing you do, but you don't tell anyone. And uh, so you can't see it basically. It's it goes under the radar because um, it doesn't hit the economy yet. Uh, everything's quite cool still.
Um, then he tells one or two trusted friends, right? She goes, "Hey, uh, got to tell you something. I've kept it for myself right now, but I can't anymore. It's just too good, right? You're a really good friend. You want the profit of it as well." They tell their guild, "Yeah, we won't tell anyone else because we can profit from it and we're going to have a great advantage with this."
But then it sort of spreads and um and at some stage there's an honest player usually that uh sends an email and says, "Hey, do you guys know
that something in your game is happening that shouldn't be happening?" Right? And

and back then you did not have tons of data that you could analyze, right? It was um there were log files and you would have to look into the log files and then really check in the log files if something's happening. And um fixing a problem that that was very expensive, very labor intensive.
Yeah, cuz you can't just roll back because that would hurt a lot of the other players.
Yes. The honest players all get hurt for um um a group of people that had fun. Um
and uh so um one of the most important things I learned was that you know so ultimately somebody did this commit that caused this problem. Um, so you can go into the repository, you can do a blame, and you'll find out who exactly it was, right? It's a very German thing to do is um,
first of all, find out who caused it, right? Um,
then fix it,
then fix it, right? Um, which which is actually a good thing to do because you um, this person might have um more memory about what he did in that part of code than other people, right? So, it's it's actually it's actually a um, it's a

good piece of vice to actually find out who caused it first. Then the the second rule is so there's the it's the 10 rules of debugging actually right um which which most programmers will be familiar with is you need to be able to understand what is happening otherwise you're not fixing the actual problem you're just fixing fixing symptoms and um you might not actually be fixing the cause of the problem. So you have to really understand what is causing the problem before you can fix it and that can take a while that you find out what the actual cause is. Then you need to um replicate it. Then you need to fix it and you need to test the fix and then you need to push it. And then you still got all the all this damage that you need to clean up by hand. So you have to open user files, you have to edit them which is um
errorless. You can make very easy copy paste mistakes and things like that there. It takes time. Um all these things right. Um so so what I learned back then is um and um I think that is uh uh especially if you work with teams um a very important lesson. you got this programmer, you know, it was his fault. He caused this problem. And usually he's

um um newer on the on the server side because um if you've done it a few times, you you know what to look for and um you're not prone to make this mistake anymore. But um so so someone who basically did this mistake the first time runs into it and you sit down, you can see all the servers are down. um you can show them how much money we're losing right now because the game is not running. No one can play, no one can pay, no one, you know, you have to compensate people. It's costing money. And uh so the first reaction is um people people get really anxious and worried, right? So they sit there and they go, "Oh my god, what have I done? Um I just did this small change. I didn't think that this was going to have big impact." Right? And uh that that's the point where we then tell them that um it's totally fine to make mistakes like this even if they cost money but we as a team now have to fix it together. That's the important part. Now uh you need to understand it had an impact and

that's important that you understand that what you did had an impact. Um if if someone else just cleans it up and um
then you do it again next weekend.
Exactly. Right. you're not going to learn very much from it because you don't understand the severity of this issue. Um, but once you've gone through this pain of cleaning it up, the next time you're going to sit down and you're going to go like, "Ooh, right. Um, I I really need to be careful when I handle items, when I do this, when I do that." Um, and it's nothing that can be taught uh beforehand. I can't go and say, "Hey, Jonas, um, you really need to be careful when you do item handling and depot handling."
And you go, "Yeah, sure, sure, sure. be careful, right? But um not until you've gone through that pain, you will actually realize what it means to be careful in these areas um on the server.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like the learning effect is only for that one developer. It's also like all of the other developers also see which
can help. Yes. Yes. Exactly. So, um there are a lot of very interesting

stories from that time. So, another one that uh uh that we had or is a general problem with online gaming is um we've been under attack since day one. Um so, um our servers are being attacked with DOS attacks. Um our um we have people that do social engineering with the with the data centers to gain access or physical access on the servers to steal code or program parts or things like that.
Holy crap.
Um there were really crazy stories around that. Um, so there there is an there's an um open tibia variant out there which goes back to a social engineering hack in a data center where someone managed to convince the data center that he is an employee of tipsoft and gained access on the server and then copied the binary and they used that binary to reverse engineer it and create open tb.
No way. So that's actually something you have to worry about when you make online games.
Yes.
Do you think this is a problem for online games in particular?

It makes it very complicated. The difference is between a single player game and an online game is the first thing is in an online game, you can't cheat as much. So in a single player game, you can cheat the heck out of everything, right? So So if you imagine you've got a first person game, you're just going to show the arms, the weapon, perhaps a foot, something like that, and the rest of the character is just not there.
Yeah. As soon as you have another person that can log in, he he can see you. So, so you can't cheat anymore. You can't have arms going longer and legs going longer and things like that to just, you know, it looks great in the single person game and you can look at it and it's all good, but if you look at from the outside, you go, "Oh my god, what's wrong with this character?"
You can look into every direction of the game. Um, you can run wherever you want to. People can pile on each other and reach areas that you didn't think they could reach. Um people will use the protocol to send things with um bots and um to gain uh to you know uh everything

they can automate and where they can get a little bit more power for themselves out of the system they'll do it.
I think I think the thing is that people do that with single player games and they do it with multiplayer games.
That's right. But with a single player game they just ruin the fun for themselves which is cool, right? Because they don't have to. they they could just play it and uh as it was sort and have that experience and they can also cheat and you know then win and say hey I beat the game because you know I I basically cheated but they're not ruining the fun for anyone else in an online game you ruin the fun for other people and um that's the problem there like that people go so far as to try and gain like physical access to the data centers and servers that's that's a bit more wild than I would have imagined for like a simple online game or something. It's
Yeah. Well, and also DOS attacks. So, they they um they attack the the data centers um uh until the data centers are offline. So, um we were once chucked out

of a data center after it had been offline for uh for a week or so. And the data center, which is really bad sign for a data center. So, um if a data center ever does that to you, that's a bad data center actually. Okay?
Because that means the data center can't protect um its customers um in the internet. and they kicked us out. Um, so we weren't allowed to run our service in the data center anymore.
You're too much trouble.
Exactly. Exactly. But I mean, what what does that tell other customers, right? So, um, it it it says exactly that, right? So, so I'm I'm just a good customer until um trouble comes or or there's something that's more difficult and then to just cancel my contract um which we have with him, right? um and and they just cancel it with actually no there's no reason and no legal reason but you you have to find solutions and so and and online games you know it's um they run non-stop it's 24 hours 7 days a week 365 days a year they run the whole time so um if you imagine how how much

um sort you have to put into the software it's not allowed to crash the game server is not allowed to crash it has to have performance it has to you know handle hundreds of servers and connections at the same time. The grade of programming knowledge to create something like that compared to um an application running on one device. Um it's a lot more complicated. Obviously, it's not rocket science. So, most of the parts are um you know, if you if you look at them, it's it's it's everyone is cooking with water. It's it's not like it's uh like a trade secret how to do these things.
It's just that it's a lot more things you have to do so that you can actually run a game online. the the whole infrastructure you need for it and the services you need around it to make it work. It's just complex. It's just a lot of things that you need.
All right, I think it's time to advance the story line a little bit.
So So you're here uh doing product management. The the company's growing. You're like a 20 plus people team at this point. You're you're working on mobile version like the the very very

old smartphones that
Exactly.
It's not smartphones. It's more actual mobile phones.
Symbion and Java phones. Yes. How does it go from there?
Right. So, we um we had always been working on new games and um in in very different genres as well. Um so so we always understood ourselves as a company that uh innovates and that tries to create something that is interesting and new and not just um copy something and create um the same thing again.
So that's one of the reasons there was never a um second MMO RPG or a TBR 2. There's also another very interesting reason why there's no TBR 2. So u there there's actually no real um MMO RPGs out there that proved that um creating a second part enlarges your community.
Um they actually have a very big risk of splitting their community between two games. So a part will remain with the old game that they love and a part will go to the new game and then now you've half your communities and moved them to

two two different games basically.
So
because Yeah. Yeah. Because people invest so much time into these games that it's very difficult to make the move to to the
Exactly. Yes. Yes. And and you know, obviously as a developer, you go like, "Yeah, we'll do everything better the second time around and it's going to be so much cooler and nicer, but it's not it's usually not what your audience really wants to have." So, so just imagine Blizzard would make a um a World World of Warcraft 2. The expectations you you can't meet them. It's it's not possible, right? So, so that's one of the reasons we never made a second part, but we were making other games and trying out things and there were really crazy things um that we did. Um but ultimately, uh they they they all failed. So, they didn't find a market out there. Um which you need to have an actual innovation. Um so, as long as your um your great idea doesn't find a market, it's not an innovation. It's just a good idea that failed. Um
Okay. So, how many products were you juggling then? So, so you had the the original Tibia and then the Tibia

mobile.
Exactly. And then we always had one new thing that we were working on for a long time and and the company was uh was still growing. So like the peak um the peak time for TBR user-wise was 2009 2010 and that's where all big MMO RPGs have their peak.
Um uh and since then they all go down in numbers which has various reasons. uh one is that uh the game companies understood how botting works and could differentiate between real players and bots and get rid of bots in games and things like that. Back then that was not possible.
So so that basically inflated numbers a bit.
Okay.
And uh but what all the companies also have in common is that um they they all monetized a lot better and that's not only because they added things to the games that players can buy. It's it's it's mainly because their audience turned older, right? So, a lot of people started this when when they were kids and now they've got jobs um and uh and and have money and you know they they

they still want to play this game but they don't have the amount of time anymore. So, so they're will to spend some money um to basically compete with other players as well. I think that is the the the most simple way you can explain freeto play um to to someone who doesn't know how the concept works, right? So when you're young, you have time and you you just throw in your time, but you don't have money. And
all the people that used to throw in their time now
Exactly. now have money.
Grown-ups, right? They're grown up people now and they have jobs and all these things. And uh um so so so
why why are there no new players? Oh, they are they're new players as well, but uh it's just um um compared to a single player title, um the big difference is that we have players that have been playing for decades.
So, um we actually have players that have been playing since the very beginning and they're still playing the game right now and it's nearly 30 years now.
Wow. And you have been continuously updating the game for 30 years

essentially.
When we open the game now, it's still it's still playable. It's still being updated.
Yes. And that's absolutely wild. Like, are there any other um MMO RPGs that have been up for that long or
No, we're we're currently the the oldest continuously operated MMO RPG out there. There are a few others that that were there's one that was older than us, but they had a break in between. And then you've got Ultimate Online, but they launched a little bit behind us. And then and then there's games like Runescape, but they're they're a bit uh they're a bit younger already, right? So, um, no, we're going to we're going to celebrate our 30th birthday soon with the game. And yes, that's crazy if you think about that. You've got a game that has been being played over three decades. And
wow,
a lot of people that come to the company now and join our company, they're younger than the game. So, the game existed before they were born. And you know, Exactly. If you if you
just sit there and you realize that uh

in in the interview, right? So, so people say like I was born
1999 and you go like oh cool yeah the game was there two years already then.
That's wild. So you were talking about your philosophy of um not making updates like you're not making Tibia 2, you're making
you'd rather make something new. So you're working on other projects on the side that don't really
the largest part of the company always worked on TB. I mean that's uh that's pretty clear, right? So um most of resources go in there.
Okay.
So just trying to future proof maybe get some extra.
Yeah. As a company you sort of sit there and you look at the numbers right and and you know no one would have dreamt that this goes the way it went and the the game still runs and is actually stronger now than it ever was after 30 years. um what what you know you sit there and you look at the numbers and you go like oh okay um we should definitely um have another game out there um so that we have a security line if something happens with the first one

and you know you just want that double safe net as an entrepreneur you don't want to um you don't want to feel if something goes wrong uh that's it and we have to um fire everyone and close the company down. Yeah. Um so so you're always going to work on um a second field, a second product, uh something that keeps the company alive over time. And uh so we also did that but we weren't very successful in it. And the um over the time we tried a lot of different things. So we tried bottom up approaches, we tried top down approaches, we tried um ideas from people, we tried different genres. Um there were a lot of things that we tried out in different and they're all called um um innovation processes in our company.
So we had multiple of these over the
Were you looking like for very wide selection of different products or was it only MMO online?
No, it was super wide. It had to be online. It had to be online. That was the only the only restriction there was.

And back in the time the the first idea was like we'll we'll have um multiple ideas um of people just people that post in ideas and and then we'll like uh value them and if there's something cool there we'll create a team and they'll just start making it. That was like the first idea. Um, and I mean to be honest, you know, there there was not much Siri about um game innovation back then. Um, when when we did these things, there was like a lot of stuff in production manufacturing like um uh companies that build physical products and how they innovate. And um so the the concept that you'll stumble over very quickly is um uh stage gate processes which is basically you have a gate um with certain rules and the idea has to um pass this gate um or it will get killed and
then there's a then there's a stage again and that's where they have to build something um or create something that is defined then it goes into a gate gets evaluated again by other people

and they then kill it and and it's always about killing it quickly, right? So, if you if you think about an idea and uh I mean I've looked at your videos and they're really great about how to find an idea
and um the the main idea is to um evaluate the critical part of your idea as quickly as possible and if it fails, you're happy that you didn't pursue it and you just go to the next thing to fail quickly.
I see. That's a very interesting way to describe it. It's like a a different frame but very similar in a way. I see.
Yes. Yes. Um but um uh now the the one thing is you do this with yourself or with a very small team. Um and the other thing is you're doing this with a company.
There's a lot of different um things in motion and um ideas and uh where people want to pull the direction of um of projects and um ideas and that makes it a lot more difficult um to have focus and to kill something that's not

working. That's why these gates then exist in bigger companies because um the people working on these things usually don't kill them. So you know they they won't they just won't kill it. They will just continue and continue and uh you need an external gate that basically looks at it and says we're sorry we're killing your baby. Right?
Um so most of our ideas were related about that and then there were different approaches of how the initial ideas sort of come up. So we had a pitch process uh where people would write a one page about the idea like a high concept.
Um then they had one where they built prototypes. They had uh three people had time to um create a prototype in 6 months that uh also didn't lead to really much. Um there was one game that was created out of a prototype. So they actually went in production and created a game. Um but that failed as well. Over the time there was a very long um process of um failed game development approaches and we we we sit and talk a

lot about why why why is this not working right? Why can't we create a new game?
Interesting. Okay.
Right. So you got a very successful game running um making a lot of money and you got a lot of people in the company building this game. And what we kind of realized is that we're it's a very different trade to continue a game and add features and to extend the game than to create something new. So basically when we hire people, we look for people that are very suitable for basically
finishing and adding features to our existing games. But we weren't specifically looking for people that are great at making a new game. So So that was one thing that we realized, right? So um we basically had to learn how to create games again um by actually making something that works properly. And it's not like um the the teams weren't, you know, the they could do it. it would just take long and and it was a hard battle and um they would concentrate on

a lot of technical issues and and not um concentrate on the game and the fun and these things
and so so fast forward to to how our new MMO RPG project came to life. I was sitting there with a with a friend from the company, a programmer and um I had this idea of a um zombie MMO in my head for for a long time already. Um, I was like doing a niche market research and looking for, you know, where could there be something interesting to go into and I wanted to create my my core idea was we should go back to what we're good at. We're always trying to make new games in new genres and and then we fail because of different reasons, right? Technical reasons, gameplay reasons, but the main reason is because we're we're basically creating a game uh in a genre that we have no idea in and we're not good at it. But we are really good at making an MMO RPG and running it. So why not create something and go back to the roots and create a hardcore PVP MMO RPG because we know how to do that. We know

the rules of that game. We know how how to do this. Yes, there's the technical part of actually creating a new modern version of that. Y
um but we have that challenge anyway with every game, but at least we know what we're building and um everyone speaks the same language in the team um because we've been doing that for years already. And then I had discovered that there are no zombie MMO RPGs. There's lots of zombie shooters. There's games that um um are single player. We just run and shoot and stuff like that, but there's no actual MMO RPG out there. And um shortly before the pandemic hit, I was talking to to my friend Tom and I was going like, "Hey, I'm I'm thinking of um you know uh starting that in my spare time and just building um like a like a proof of concept um for for this idea." And he went, "Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm totally in." Right. So we had this brilliant idea to um create an MMO RPG to to as a twoperson team and um me not

being a real programmer. Um so you know, advice for anyone out there. It's a great idea, do it. Um, it's it only worked because Tom was very dedicated. Um, the pandemic hit and we had lots of time. Um,
and it was uh no Netflix and instead just creating a game. Um, and that was fun, right? Uh, so my wife would watch telly and Netflix and I would sit at the computer and and build on the game and uh Tom as well and then we'd like meet and change things and talk about it. And the whole concept was um to talk as much as possible. Uh we had no design document. We only had things in our head and we talked them through until we both had the same understanding of what exactly we want to create and then we started and uh it took us about one and a half years and then we had a working prototype of the game where you could log in. There was um a whole city with zombies around it. Like the most essential core idea of the game was playable. And we showed that to the

other people at the company and they said, "Hey, this this idea is going somewhere. Don't you want to um do that in full-time at the company?" Now, that was a bit difficult because I was managing director um at that point.
So, your position changed from product manager to managing director, which honestly to me sounds
very similar.
Yes, it it is. It is actually it is actually not that unsimilar. It's um it's just in a big company obviously managing directors have a lot of things to do that have nothing to do with actual game development. There's uh there's a lot of um HR topics. There's a lot of um you know legal issues and things around the company um is very far away from actual game production.
Okay. Um what you do see what you do do is you oversee the strategies of the different teams and basically supervise that these things sort of mount up to um a company strategy. Okay.
Yeah. So
a more strategic position.
Exactly. very very suited and uh I had

switched there um about um so it's now 8 years 8 years since I became managing director at the company
and uh so I had to make time so that I could also lead a team um creating a new game. So um I'm I'm still managing director but I only do certain tasks um uh for that job part um which is um representing the company um uh outside um so I do industry events um and things like that politicians which is also part of the job. I'm also in um the board of the of the Bavarian um Association for Game Developers. Um so there there's a lot of um talking involved in that part. Um, but I actually operationally in the company I don't do anything as a managing director at the moment and instead I'm one of the lead product managers for the new MMO RPG but um how we started was um and and that is basically um the same story again as

with Tibia. So we had started this game in our um attics in this case um not in the basement um um but it was two people just creating something that they wanted to play themselves and said this is cool. This is the game that we want to make and um we think other players will like it too. Then we we brought it to the company and we both worked on it full-time but it was just us two. So we were then just sitting at the company spending eight hours and then doing stuff at home still. Right. And then um we hired our first employee in the team uh who was a programmer and he joined us and um then we worked with uh three people
basically uh hired specifically for the new game.
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So so we chose someone where we said this this person is going to help us and that's perhaps worth a little detour. So, I'm I'm a great fan of um finding the strengths and the weaknesses of the people on a team um and to know my own things that I

can do and that I can't do. And then if I look for someone to who's going to join my team, I don't just, you know, wait for the first person to shout and say, "Hi, I love your game. I want to work with you." Um no, we we specifically look um is he is he going to add something of value um uh to the team? Can he do something that we can't do or is he better than than I am? And hopefully he is. Everyone should be better than me um on the team. Um because I am a generalist, so everybody has to be better than me, right?
Some if someone's not better than me in in in in the field we're hiring him in, it's not going to work, right? M um so um we we really um pay a lot of attention to that um someone comes with a strength to the team and can solve something in the team that um we can't solve with our current resources. So it's not like you think we just need another programmer because progress is

too slow. We then look for someone who fits um a profile um that we tal about before and we say we need someone who can do that and who is good at doing this. So this guy was someone who um is really fast in implementing things.
You could say like a
a prototyping programmer.
Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Which is exactly what we needed in in that phase because the idea is to to create the core systems of the game um to test out if they are fun and if they are not fun to throw them away and then try again um with another idea. And um I if you're not willing to throw it away um you're not iterating. Um you're just you're stubborn,
I guess, right? And you don't want to be stubborn in game development. Uh so if you want to try out something and then realize, okay, this is not good enough, it's not working, you throw it away. And um if you if you have something that is planned out and down and then created and then it's there, there's a very big

reluctance and um uh to to not to not scrap it
because people spent a lot of time implementing it and uh they they don't feel happy when you then kill it and
right so um it it's uh in this phase especially it's great to have someone who who says no that's great it's it's a bit sloppy anyway it's fine right um It's it's not bad, right? It's just not it's just not um on the highest production level straight away and you would have to refactor and rework it later on. And that's cool, but you get on a lot faster. And um so um every time we hire someone, that's what we do. And um like the most important hire we had um that was in the company, we we got someone from another team uh to come over to help us with um the game design. And um that was because we had our core systems and you could see that they are fun, but they weren't deep enough. They weren't complex enough for an MMO RPG. They were too shallow. Um they only showed the um like the faint idea of

what the game was supposed to be. And um so we got someone we knew was better than us to do it. How do you test fun for or how do you evaluate your ideas for something like an MMO RPG? Because I I guess it's not like you can just put together a prototype in a week and then
test it for a couple of hours and then
Exactly. That's it. It took one and a half years to have a have it at that state, right? So it took one and a half years to have the whole technology so far that you can actually test it.
Wow.
Um that's crazy but okay. So just invest that time up front and then then you start optimizing start trying to make it more fun. Do you try to go through the entire progression system of the MMO every time or which parts of the game do you test?
Yeah. So, so you start with the core loops. So, I think it's it's that's very similar to every game actually. So, you need to you need to figure out that that what your player is going to do um 90% of the time. That has to be fun and um

you have to be willing to, you know, as soon as you start it, you say, I want more of this. And um I I if if you don't reach it with that core system then your game ultimately won't be sticky enough people won't like it and and you first you try yourself obviously so you implement it you try it out yourself and then you go like okay I I like it that's something already right and um then you show peers and the peers look at it and they'll give you feedback then you optimize you try it out again and now comes the really cool thing with um uh with online games we just put the game online. Um so we had a website and we just dumped the game there and uh some players found it through um trademark registrations that we did
and uh I can remember that quite well. I was lying in bed and um we had a discord server that we were using um with the name of the game with a website and everything and you could download the game and then just log in and play on the server basically. So um that's how we were working. We were like updating the server and uh just playing and

trying out the features of the as a p as a person, right? Mhm.
And so, um, I was lying in bed and, uh, um, and, uh, suddenly my phone starts dinging and dinging and dinging and, um, I'm getting lots and lots of Discord messages. So, I'm going, what's what's on here? Right. So, um, I go to Discord and, uh, there's this, um, people joining the Discord server, um, um, every like, you know, every 10 seconds someone's joining this this Discord server. So, I'm going like, ooh. um ran over to my PC um started uh logged into the game and there were 129 people in the game online running around and playing. Um so that's uh um for a lot of people I think that's that's scary but uh we we always wanted to develop the game that way um because um ultimately we're building the game for a community. So, it's more it's more building a community than building a game if you think about it actually because um on the long run, it's the community that's

going to keep the game alive. And so, the game it it has to be for them. It's not just for us. It's it's really we're building it for this community and we need their feedback so that we can make it better. And uh TBIO came to life that way. Um it had so few features when it came out and a lot of things came with collaboration with the community um with um you know bouncing ideas talking to people what do they want what don't they want and um and then building the things and putting them into the game and um so so our approach is very similar there and a lot of people are afraid because they want to present the perfect polished product to the customer and they go like we we can't ship right it's not possible we can't ship we can't release because uh we still need to add all these things and we need to podge this and this and that. And yes, that's true to a certain extent. There are people that do not like unfinished games and they don't understand it. Um it's the same as people that go into an empty flat and can't imagine how it could be

with furniture. Yeah. So, you go in and you go like, "This is awful. This place, this is a crap hole, right? Who could live here?" And other people go in and go like, "Wow, wow, so cool. I can imagine a bar in this corner and you know my gaming area here. This is going to be awesome, right? And you need these people. You need these people at the beginning of a game um when it's when it's created that way with a community because um these people fill out these blanks with ideas and pass them on. And this feedback is invaluable to create something that will actually find the market. If we just build this game for 5 to seven years and then release it with a big bang, I have no idea if anybody will like it. I just don't know. Right.
Mhm.
That's too dangerous in my opinion. It's it's not a good idea to do that. Um
and the feedback that you get from players, you know, it's everything. Yes, it's harsh. It's hard. Sometimes it hurts. Um
they are honest. you have to you have to have rules on how to um listen to your

players and how to value the feedback of one person versus groups versus people on your team. So, one of the rules we have is that just because someone is in our team and comes with feedback, it doesn't make his feedback more valuable than that of a player. He has the same status as one player.
Okay. That's that's crazy. Yeah, it's it's tough. It's tough to hold it through, right? It's it's not that easy obviously because they have access.
There are a lot more players than developers. So, you're like the the players have more say in this than we do on this.
Yes. Yes. But that's because um I mean ultimately we don't do exactly what the player wants because um I think it's the um it's the sinking in the box problem that you have there. So the player knows the systems that he has and he he he does not know what we can change and not change in the game more easily or more what's more difficult. So um play players will come with with um ideas but

what you really want to find out what their problem is and and that is true for every everything in the company as well. So a lot of people will come with a solution and what you the first thing I usually say is I I don't I don't care about your solution. I don't want to know what the solution is because I don't know if it is for what is the solution what's the problem right describe the problem and then we can find out if there are multiple good solutions for this problem and uh a lot of people in business they just want to push their solution it's not about finding the best solution for the problem it's they like this solution for whatever reason it can be legit right it's it's not it's not the issue but the right way to handle it is to find out what the problem is then to find out do we want to fix it or is it okay. It can be totally fine to have this problem and if we fix it what is the best solution and not just to settle with the first idea and um I remember when I was younger I I I learned this lesson by

force. So I came to the um to the founders and um I had a a good idea for a feature for the game and I said like this this is the idea. I think it's going to be great. Um, I think it's going to, you know, um, impact game. It's going to, uh, the players are going to love it. We're going to make more money with it. I think it's a really good idea. And, um, you know, one of them looked at me and he said, um, I don't think so. On what, on what basis is this the best idea to spend your time with? So, I went like, you know, we put time in it. We researched it. We, you know, we've got these, um, we checked all these parameters and everything. We think it's a really good idea. and he said, "Yeah, next time you come, you come with a list of 10 of 10 things and um you prove that uh this one is the best of those 10." Right. So
that's that's how we make games. Yeah. That's essentially our prototyping approach.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, it was a it was a it was an overly hard reaction to the actual thing. Um but it taught a valuable lesson and the lesson was that just because I like this idea

and I am convinced that this is the best solution for my problem did I really check did I really check is this the best solution or or was I just in love with it right
and and there's nothing wrong with being in love with something and and you know that a lot of good things derive from passion and a team that is passionate you will always feel it in the product that they had passion when they created it versus they had to do Um
but um you just sit there and uh the first thing you go like you know you're frustrated that's the first reaction obviously you go like but you know I'm convinced this is the best thing. So I sat down, I um sort off 10 other solutions for the problem that was there and uh um evaluated them you know like with how how long does it take to create them? Um programming time, design time, how high are the uh opportunities that we can have with it, you know, like a like a risk diagram and things like that to to then um find out that our first solution was in that thing also the

best. And now that was evaluated by multiple people and so on and so on, right? So it came out that yes, that was the first solution. So the first thought is, oh wow, this was all insane, right? Uh I spend all this time evaluating those those other things and now we're doing what I proposed anyway. We could have we could have shortened that, right? But the the the the true answer is and if you're honest to yourself, the answer is no. We shouldn't have. Um we should have evaluated the other things. Um it was the correct thing to call. we should have done it in the first place. We we shouldn't have just gone with our with our guts because that's not good enough. And and I think that is when designing and making a game and taking in player feedback,
you have the same thing there. So you have hundreds of opinions, hundreds of ideas, and uh those are only the loud people, right? So that's only people that are on your discord or will answer to a survey. Those are the only people that you're hearing from. So what is with the 90% of people that don't bother to talk to you but are playing your

game? How do you get feedback from them? And um the the best thing you that we can do or that that we do is uh we have uh two two tools to do that. So the one is we look at data.
Mhm.
So um we record uh data points um when players play and then um evaluate them and just look at the hard data. So
and just just so I get this straight. So you're essentially doing some version of what what I guess you'd call early access where you the the the new game is already essentially playable for the community.
Yes.
And at the moment it's closed. Yeah. It was very open at the beginning and then uh we closed it a while ago because we are planning to go early access on Steam and now the attraction of people interested in the game is is getting higher and higher from day to day. we can't accommodate them all because the uh we can't just run hundreds of servers now. Yeah, that's expensive and there's no money coming in. That doesn't make sense business-wise. So, we have three

servers around the world and we allow um uh a certain amount of players um uh to test the game now in a closed uh group and we invite new players to that group from everyone who's interested um um every six weeks.
Okay. And then you you collect data and feedback from the group and
that is how you make all of the important decisions about
Exactly. Yes. So we always back it with data. So you can you can imagine it this way. It's it's it's funnel optimization is what uh what it's called basically. So um when you uh when you start uh the game and you create a character um we we basically log an event that says this this account has created a character. Then um you enter the game world, then it's another event. This this account has entered the game world. Um you've talked to the first NPC, it's another event. And it goes on and on and on like that. So we can uh we can basically have a uh a graph uh where we can see where

we lose players in this line. And uh you also have heat maps where you can see where players die and uh where difficulty curves go up and down. And uh now the complicated part is interpreting that data. Mhm.
So the way to go is um that you have a ceases and you say um I think we are losing players here because of this reason right and then you have to prove it. So you need to make a change then publish that change and then watch what the next group of players how they react to that certain part if that's now better or worse. And you can do AB testing with different groups and things like that. But you basically test things on the data side and see if the majority of the planes choose A, B, C, D and if that performs better or worse. But that is only the data and the data only tells you a certain amount and you can be very wrong with your assumptions. Um so you always need to look at it in different angles. So it's not just enough to look at one figure that you've got like how many players reached this point
because I don't know why they stopped. I

have no idea. It's just uh guessing right and that is where surveys come in. So um you then have a survey and you really ask the people specifically so I know you stopped here why what was the reason that you stopped here and then I get a qualified answer and now I can have a better theory about what happened and I can propose a feature or a change in the game that will fix it.
That's very interesting because like this entire process is is so different from from how we make games. We we almost like we we finish almost the entire game before we give it to people and you you know do it almost the other way around where you're like okay here's a very barebones framework of how we want our game to look like and now we just give it to you and you tell us what to do with it almost
yes exactly
that's super interesting
I think that's the beauty of game development there is no right or wrong there's um there's hundreds of different approaches that you can take and um um all of them are valid basically it's

it's just with what you feel comfortable and what works well for you and uh and and then there are a few like um requirements for the game. So you've got a paid title. So um people need to decide to buy the game when they look at it in the app store. So they they like the idea and they're will to pay a certain amount of money in that moment and then they play the game. And if if they stop after one or two levels, um you will you will you might never know. It's just um they paid it, they bought it. You might see the next title if they if less people buy it perhaps or something like that, but um
um you actually don't know. Now, if your game is free, basically everyone is testing your game and I have to convince them that it's worth paying money.
So, it's it's it's the other way around, right? It's uh they there's no barrier to test the game. You just download it, start it, and play. And if you like what you see and you're invested in this and you say, "This is cool. I like it. I'm

going to support this." Then you might spend money on it, but you don't have to. So, um, there's a very, very big difference there. So, in in MMO RPGs, if players have to pay upfront for the game,
you're basically getting a selection of players that is um also willed to go through a lot of pain now in the game because they paid 50 bucks. So, if I pay 50 bucks for a game and I don't understand something somewhere, hell, I'm going to find out how this thing works, right? I'm going to ask people or I'm going to look up online. I paid 50 bucks. I'm not getting back, right? So, I'm going I'm going to find out how this works.
Yeah. Yeah. Quite different for free players. They're like, "Oh, I don't get it. Bye."
by Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Locked in. I didn't like the clouds. That's it. Right.
Yep. and and that makes um different approaches um necessary. So online games um being a service um it's about how do I get new people to join the game to

play the game and then eventually become someone who is will to pay for the game and and this process you have to monitor it so that you know that when you actually publish the game you've got a chance out there. It is not even certain. Even if you have good test results with your test groups and you then publish the game, it doesn't mean that you're going to be successful. It just is um it's a higher confidence level. Um
yeah,
because the the first people that are going to get your game are those that are in love with your game anyway,
right? It's the same with with a single player game. The people that buy it on day one, those are people that went like, "Hey, I I love this idea. It was on my wish list. Um cool. it's out. I'm going to buy it full price straight away. Right. And and um they play through the game and then they they say, "Awesome. I liked it. Five stars, sum up, whatever." Right.
And then you have people that go like, "What? $7.99? I'll wait until it's $4.99."
Yeah.
Yeah. Of course.
Um and then they buy it there, right? And then you have people that say, "What

one is too much for this crap?" Um there's other people that have games for free, right? Why should I pay something? And they will never pay for your game. And um that is where the idea of freeto play comes from is um yes you can have a game that um costs money but then you're closing it for everyone who is not willing to pay that €1 to access your game. They cannot play your game and they might pay later on um because they like it but they would never find out because they're not will to pay one at the beginning.
Yeah. This is basically the first essentially what you're doing with all of the other points in the game. You're like, how can we optimize this to have more people stick around is you're saying retention. Yes.
If you just have to pay €1 at the very beginning, then that's basically the one of the biggest drops in retention you can probably get.
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Because the there's research on that as well. So you can see how much people are will pay um at certain stages. It's the price elasticity. So if you if you do economics um you learn that very early. Um so um products have different um um

price points and people are willing to pay for certain things. So um you you could take an example you've got a cinema ticket and going to the cinema will cost you €15 and then you get 2 hours of entertainment in the cinema.
Now if they um up the price and uh let's say they just double it, right? So they say now it's €30 and that's what you need to pay. So you can go into the cinema and look at this. You'll have a lot of people that will say, "No, €30 for two hours of entertainment. No, no, that's not working for me." And they won't they won't buy it anymore. The other hand, you could you could lower the price. So, you could say it's five bucks,
right? Just go down five bucks for a ticket. Now, um now your whole your whole um cinema is booked out. Everyone goes into the cinema because they say, "This is awesome. This is cheap. I'm going to go to the cinema. This is great." So, there's more people there that want to have tickets than you that you actually have seats. That means you're losing money. It's it's very simple actually because um
um now every seat is taken and you you

could say now wow isn't this great right the cinema is booked out so so this is the maximum we can we can make but it's not
it's not it's not the maximum
is what you're getting at is that you can actually have an online game that is like a cinema that's too full full like with with too many free players or
well no the idea behind it is so so now let's say it's full and you've got people standing outside and they can't buy a ticket anymore right so they they can't come into the cinema and look at the movie. Um, and now people will say, "Okay, uh, but I would be willing to pay 10 bucks or 15 bucks or 30 bucks to get into the cinema now even though it's full."
Mhm.
Right. So, what you do is you regulate the price to to that amount, exactly that amount that every seat is sold, but there's no one waiting outside who's will, you know, there's no one waiting out there who's excluded. Now, this is a fixed price, right? So the idea behind freeto play is um now imagine your game. So how much does your game cost when you when you sell it?

I think thronefall is 12 bucks,
right? 12 bucks. So you'll have people that will say um Jonas, um I I would only give you one. I'll give you one bucks for this game. Now he can't buy it. He can't give you any money,
right? Not possible. There's another one who would say, "Hey, Jonas, I love your game. It's so cool. I will give you 50 bucks." He can't do that. He can only give you 12 bucks. And that is where the um uh idea of freeto play basically comes in. Every player can pay the amount that he wants to pay from zero to whatever. And that is how you the the the the ability and and the wish to pay for your game is now in the hand of the player. If he likes your game really a lot, he can give you more money. If he doesn't like it, he gives you zero. And that way you can make more money because you can sell your product um at different price ranges.
Yeah. I guess I have to give like maybe a small asterisk there that of course you can um this can also go into the manipulative side of things especially
yes
like especially if you do very very

heavy um datadriven design and you're like okay does this button need to be red or does it need to be purple so that people buy more things and
no it should it should obviously be a game and be fun right that's the um that's the core thing and um that's why we actually even build the game before we build the monetization system into the game because we just want to make sure the game is fun and if the game is fun, we'll find ways to monetize it.
And we also talk with the community
about what we're going to monetize and if they are cool with it. So,
okay.
It's it's something that we're not afraid of. We actually even asked for price points.
Now, that's interesting cuz um I guess you can't run a game like Tibia for 30 years with with like a super exploitative monetization model, right?
No. And and and also it's it's a moral thing as well, right? I mean um you you should have like a moral compass telling you this is okay and this is this is the red line we're not going to cross
and um there are obviously games out there and other companies that cross multiple lines um and and uh and push things and um do things that um you know

require regulation on law side to be stopped
and yeah it's the way it is right it's the way it is and you obviously need to know for yourself if that's something that you want to do or not and um you know it's not unlawful in that moment. Um, it's it's it's basically a gray area where legally they're allowed to do it, but um, it's not cool, right? And I don't want to play a game like that. And I think I think there are easy ways to have a fair a fair system to monetize your game that players are okay with and that are um, okay for the company and the economic needs that are behind it because running an online game is not cheap. That's uh, and and players understand that, right? Yeah, we've got servers that are running um and they need to be paid. We've got traffic. We have to pay for the traffic. It's not free. Um it's uh don't know if a lot of people know this, but um so if you have your internet flat rate at home, um traffic is included. Um it's just there. It's unlimited. But on the server side, that is not the case. Um you have to pay

for the traffic. It's not for free. And all that needs to be in consideration when you design and build an online game so that it has a chance in the market. you need to support a certain amount of players per resource that you have because it's expensive and if you have too few players that your server is supporting, it just won't work out. Um the economics won't add up at the end. Um you will make a loss and um that's um and players understand that you know they they they know how these things work and you can explain it to them. You can say look we have to pay for the service. We have to pay for the engineering team for the whole team creating the game and the updates and uh continuing the support for it. um that all costs money.
Yeah, it's
not for free. Um and they'll say yes, of course. Um charges, right? But um charge us here and not there. And um I think that is something that companies don't need to be afraid of um to talk with their communities. They often surprise us with um so we had a situation where we added a feature and we asked the

players first, is that okay? Um do you think this is a good idea or bad idea? And a lot of players said this is this is a good idea. But and then came the butt. It has to be expensive.
So, you know, it's the first thing you go like what? Yeah, they're saying make it expensive, right?
Why that, right? But the thing is that um often in online games, um it is like a protection fee around the service that prevents abuse of a service. And uh players will often say, "But make it expensive." So, um, people can't abuse it to an advantage and can only use it for the purpose it actually had.
Interesting. Yeah, I'm I'm I mean, we need to know what item it was now. Very interesting. Information gap was created.
So, one of one of these features is for instance, uh, TBR is a sharded game. So, there are multiple game servers um, uh, with own communities on them. And um we introduced a service um where you can

move your character from one server to another server.
Okay.
And um players want that to be expensive and there's a very good reason for it. So the reason is um so TBR is a PVP game uh where you can accumulate power in the game and you can use this power in the game towards other players.
Yeah. And um uh what what guilds would do is they would jump with their whole guild from one server to another server
and then dominate that server. And so if there's no price tag attached to it, they can just jump from one world to another and and do bad things basically. Um, so the the price tag um protects um uh all players from from an abusive behavior that you could be doing with that and limits it to I want to move there because my friends are there or for whatever other reason there is like I don't want to be on the server anymore because I've got a bad reputation there or whatever, right? There's enough other reasons you might want to move. But um

you can't use it to um create um situations that that are harmful for for a large part of the community that way.
Yeah. Okay. That's really funny that you run into a situation where it's like but make it expensive. Here's a cool idea, but please make it expensive.
That's um I guess to complete our little story arc with the tips of company history, can you um paint a rough picture of where are you now? like where's where where first of all like how's the new MMO you're developing called? How big is the team of people that's working on it now? And how does the rest of the company look like now?
Right. So the game is called Persist Online and um it's a zombie MMO RPG. So it's not a shooter, it's really an MMO RPG. And the team is now 14 people. So still very small. Now you say wow because it sounds big, right? But um
it's like a team within the team. So the
Yeah. Yeah. So the whole company is 110 and uh

I was like I I I always keep forgetting and then every time you tell me I'm surprised again.
Yes.
Oh god.
So the the whole company is in 10 and the the persist team is uh 14 people directly and then um graphic artists test people um I'd say another another five to six people that um also work on the project in addition. M
so um you could probably say it's roughly 20 people that work on the game but um if you look if you you know and that sounds a lot for for you now for instance so so you make games alone and and with one or two other people but um altogether if if we look at who are we competing with um I'm competing with um international big companies that create MMOs with um 700 people working on them over a period of seven years.
Yeah. Um so and and they have budgets and um expectations on their games that are in multi-million dollar regions. So

their games cost um multi-million dollars um three figures often and and they want them they all want them to be um billion dollar games, right? And and but that's the competition that we're up to. So um we're talking like um a funcom and you know even if June is now not an MMO RPG, it's it's more a survival game. But uh um that game was not cheap to make. Um there were multiple hundred peoples and studios um in different locations worldwide co-developing and working on this game.
Um
and um uh we we do not have that kind of resources at our company. Now we're not doing that. We're, you know, our numbers are public. Um everyone can look it up. So it's it's roughly €25 million um revenue and uh
uh around 10 million profit um that we make per year. It's not a small company. It's a big company, a successful company. And um
you know, a lot of indies will go like I I would love to be in your shoes and and yes, of course um we're very happy and we're very privileged to be in this

situation and and we know that, right? Um especially uh if you look at the industry um uh and the situation the industry is in we do not have external um investors we do not have a publisher um that there's we do not have a problem with interest rates going up and down and money being pulled out of the company and someone calling you know like you have to fire a certain amount of your people. It's it's it's all in our hands and that gives us freedom. It gives us things that most companies in this industry do not have. But on the other hand, we're just a small company. If you look at the global landscape and the companies building MMO RPGs are usually very big companies often 10-centent owned um so the the big Chinese mega corp um that owns like 30% of the gaming industry
um and and they have their fingers in a lot of online games worldwide and the companies related to it and and that is our competition right
and um so so from our perspective it's it's it's it's we're we're fighting

Goliath And uh we're the small guys here, right? And and obviously it's a it's a perspective thing, right? So smaller studios and and and studios that are in the in the struggle of uh finding financing for their games,
they'll go like, um it's awesome what you've got, right?
Yeah.
And it is, of course, it is, right? It's um it's as I said, it's a privilege to be in the situation. And um that's something that service games create for you because um you get revenue every day. Um it's not just uh one product, one sale. We sell every day and uh we can calculate because we know how much we're going to make after a very short time. We we can estimate how it's going to how the year is going to be. And uh
that gives us a lot of safety. We can hire uh and if we hire someone, we know that we can keep him for multiple years and there's not going to be an issue with with payment or things like that. We also have um a thing at our company where um every employee can use 20% of his time, that's essentially a day um to

create a new online game as he likes.
Okay. So you're you're you still have open doors for essentially new projects that you might want to take on.
Yes.
I think that's really cool.
Yes. So there's um 22 people or 25 people now. I think it's 25 at the moment. So, so roughly a quarter of the company is working on their own games um in this 20% basis and um every few months they um show the progress to the rest of the company. So there's like an event and then everyone has a it's like a um we have a big room called the tip loft um where you where there's a lot of space and uh they they have tables there and their computers and then they have a like it's like a little it's like a little show basically like a like a mini gamess com and uh um they have a little sign where they say what changed since the last version and then you can play test their games and give them feedback and tell them if you like things, don't like things and uh just look what they did. And then we have pizza and some drinks. And uh it's it's um it's

basically the um you have to show to the rest of the company what you've been working on. That's the idea behind it. And but uh there's no there's only a very small guidance on what the games have to be. So um
it has to be a living online game. That's what we call it. So there's uh the genre is fixed basically. Um it has to be an online game. You have to have an avatar that you run around in a world. um it has to be multiple hundred players possible but um other than that it's technology open game design open and the idea is that similar to how TBM persist came into existence if the people are working on a passion project that they believe in something good can come out
and uh the only people that can kill the project is that team
that's right but um the only
the company doesn't kill it
the company doesn't kill it but the company has the power to maybe bring it to the next level and be like
exactly the other way around. The company will only um allow a production

or or give the team more time to work on it if they are convinced that this is going in a direction that the company thinks is good.
So the you got it right. The the team can pitch to the to the bosses of the company to the managing directors. They can do a pitch and in there they will explain why they think they deserve more resources um to to create this game uh on a larger scale. And uh the the the answer can be um we don't think you're that far yet, right? Just just
go on. Um the answer can also be um yeah um but you're not getting a production team yet. Um but you can all work 40% on it now instead of 20%.
Okay. Mhm. Okay.
So it can be it can be steps in different directions. Um uh just uh uh based on the confidence that is there. But essentially what you're doing with uh persist I think does give you a lot of confidence that it's probably going to work because you're already getting so much feedback and data or how how's

the that project shaping out like how far along?
Um right now we're in pre-alpha. Um and pre-alpha means that uh most of the systems the most important systems are in place. Um they are not completely polished yet and the game's performance is not polished yet. And uh the look is not um completely um finished yet but the systems um and the whole focus is on game systems. So
whatever is implemented it's always the focus on gameplay and getting that right.
Um so what we do is um we have three different test groups um that we work with. Uh the first one has unlimited access. they can just play the whole time and that is important so that we get long-term uh feedback on the changes we are doing because these people also know the history of where things are coming from. The second group of people is uh the play test group. Um they can just sign up on the website and uh we randomly pick people and add them to the play test group and whenever we have a play test everyone from that group can

play the game
but for a limited time.
Okay. So it's usually 5 days. They play 5 days in one go. And um the play test then when that happens, that's that's a few hundred people playing. They they will they will then tell us um um if the uh multiplayer aspects of things are working, give us feedback if they like things and what they don't like and what they would change and those things. But then their time is over and they can't play anymore, right? And then we have a third group that we invite to the game via um marketing campaigns. So, we basically have an ad and we pretend the game is finished. We we don't tell them it is in a um in an early access.
We uh throw them into the game and we um we look um when we lose them.
They don't even know it's still
they can figure it out because it does say pre-alpha on multiple places. Um but uh you know, it's not like there's a big warning sign that says this this game is not finished. Um uh beware, right? Um but it uh they just download the game

and start playing and um we then look um how far they um stay in the game. I survey them and we look what we have to change to get that um that funnel of people to stay in the game and uh what what is still required before we can go into early access. So you test the whole thing. So So basically you test how much money are you spending for a player that will then stay after 30 days.
Okay. And how much does that one player cost after 30 days?
You either keep tuning the game till the equation works or you eventually kill the game.
Yes, that's essentially what happens in uh in in live service games. Yes. So if if you can't uh if the if that equation doesn't go up um you would be um you would be burning your acquisition money. So as we said earlier, right, um if if you launch a game uh nowadays, how many games launch on Steam? something like 12,000 a year. Um, it's a ridiculous
400 daily probably.
It's a ridiculous number. So, what

happens if you're if you haven't already got a community that can push you? You put out the game and uh uh basically nothing happens.
That's what most people will experience when they when they just put just put a game on there with no with no other related things around it. You have to be lucky if it's something else. Um, it can happen obviously, right? there there's always exceptions where where things suddenly skyrocket or something. But um for for the majority of games when they when they do that nothing will happen. Um it's the same if you put a website on the internet nothing will happen. No one will look at your website first of all basically nothing will happen. So so you need to find players and you need to make them aware of your game and there different possibilities for that. So on Steam you can obviously take part in festivals, you can have demos um uh these things. Um you can talk to curators with influencers and hope that they will you know talk about your game. You can um use ads uh to make people um

aware of your game and you can go to you can go to physical events and present your game there. So that there's lots of different things you can do and uh at the end you kind of need to think about which mix makes most sense for your game and is it going to pay off because uh none of the most of these things aren't for free. Yeah, there are few that are, but um they are also more luck driven. What's going to happen then? And and others are um uh they just cost money. And so if I go to Gamescom and I don't know like an indie boost will cost you 5,000 bucks, something like that. Uh how many wish lists are you going to get if your game is not ready yet? Or how many sales are you going to get from that? Right. And it could be cheaper to to have ads.
Interesting. I the most interesting thing about this whole rant of you there is once again how how different it is from my perspective cuz my perspective has as an indie game developer has slowly shifted to like any advertisement is basically not worth it compared to

the visibility that you can get directly from Steam. It's like there there are two things as an indie game de two sources of traffic that are relevant for indie game developers. one is just Steam and the other one is content creators on YouTube and Twitch and everything else essentially doesn't matter like at all.
So that's that's true for a paid title.
Um but that that's the big difference. So so Steam is um Steam is a platform that is driven by revenue. So uh games that perform well revenue-wise um will will become more traffic from the algorithm. And uh if uh you have a free-to-play title, you're not making revenue.
Mhm.
So the algorithm does not give you users.
But does Steam not get a percentage of your share from stuff you sell in the game?
Only if you sell something, right? Um uh over the Steam uh client. Um so it has to be in the Steam client. But now the the thing is that uh our game is in wish list right now, but um it's a

free-to-play title. So, um, Steam, um, only has you in the free-to-play carousel.
Um, that's the place where you are, and that is not the most visible place on the Steam platform.
That's also most of the events um, festivals or things that uh, Valve has um are connected uh to um to sales. So, uh, you gain visibility by um, reducing your price for 15% for the time of the festival. And that is how Valve will give you more traffic and traction. But if your game costs $0, you can't do that.
That's right. Do you think Steam is not that great of a platform for online services or what's your general take on that?
Yes. And it makes sense from their perspective. I mean, we could have a long talk about Steam being monopoly or not. Technically um um jurisdictionally speaking they are not um because it's they they do not uh hold the platform. So if you look at Apple or Google they

um they have Android and they have iOS and they gatekeep it and they have their store and you couldn't do anything else.
And obviously Valve with Steam is dominant on the PC market but there's also the Epic Game Store. There's GOG and anybody could open up a new store. Anybody could. Is it realistic? No. I mean, we can all see how Epic is struggling to compete and they have to invest a lot of money to compete. So, so Valve, the feeling they have a monopoly by law, it's probably not,
but it it doesn't change um a thing for the developers obviously and uh Valve takes a large chunk of the money and in my opinion the amount they take is not is not what they are offering anymore price-wise. If you look at where we are nowadays, it used to be okay in the beginning of the platform where the platform uh was at that time and how the market looked at that time. But if you look at um how the world works now, how

payment works now, how uh download works now, I mean uh Epic has a very good point in and they're very transparent about how much the store actually costs them. Um you can look it up because they'll tell you um the the whole operating the store is 6%. that's what they need to charge
to operate the store, the payments, the whole thing.
And um then they have a surplus which is I believe 5% on top or depending on what engine you use, right? That's their profit margin. So we're coming somewhere at 12 to 15% here and uh Valve takes double of that. So um their profit margin is near 25% of your game. And yes, they have the customers there, right? But on the other hand, um, Valve also, um, as all storeh holders try to do, takes the customer away from you. I'll give you a nice example.
Um, people can wishlist your game, right? So, people are on the on the B on the Steam site and they can press this

button and say, "Hey, I'm I'm interested in this game. I think this is cool. Um, inform me about it." You cannot talk with these people. You do not know who these customers are. you have no email address, Valve has it.
Yeah,
Valve restricts you on how you can communicate with these people and that is limited in this case to you release your game and they get a notification but there's no real other way that you can talk to your customers
and um
what you're talking about is sort of the concept of community ownership, right? You're
Yes.
And that's Apple does the same basically, right? So it even goes so far that if a customer um retreats from the payment he did, so he gives back the game or he chargebacks it. So he um actually um has a fraudulent action on his credit card for instance. You will never know.
Mhm.
Um they they will just block him and take away the game from him perhaps um or or not. We we we don't know. They they will not prevent him from buying another game from you,

which is something you might want to do, right? So basically someone bought your game, played it, and then charge backs it on its credit card. Um, so not only you get the money, but you actually even have to pay a a fee. Um, you actually even get a damage on it. Um, in addition, right? It's not it's not for free. So you pay the transaction fee and you also pay the chargeback fee, which is deducted from the money that Valve is paying out to you. That's just gone. You you just don't see it. It's um the payout just gets smaller.
Yeah, I see. I see those points. I guess the problem is that as you mentioned, all of the players are on Steam. So, as a developer,
you don't really have a you don't really have a choice. And also, I I guess if I could decide if I want to live in a world with or without Steam, I would still take the one with Steam.
I would definitely like a world with Steam as well, right? Um I love Steam as a um as a gamer as well. I'm I adopted it very early on and um I I I loved the whole concept behind it. Um on the other hand they do do things um that are um

contradicting European law and um there are multiple uh law cases against Valve in multiple countries around the world regarding these things. So so there are a few points where I also can understand it business-wise why these things happen right um but uh on other things um uh they they just they just are protecting their their profit margin u which is very very high as everyone knows. Valve is one of the most profitable companies in the world. um um if you look at how much money one employee is um making per year. But yeah, no, there's no way around um Steam um and that is reality um for for game creators. And it also has advantages obviously, right? Um uh if you make it on Steam, uh it can become enormous because there's so many players there that um if if only a percentage of them uh thinks your game is cool, um you're going to sell um hundred thousands of units. And um where else are you going to get that?

That's exactly what I was trying to say. That's um like in a in a universe without something like Steam's like all of my games would have done way way way way worse. So
yeah, and that makes it very difficult to be like uh you know the the share they're taking is unfair and so on. It's like yeah, I guess so, but I I'm I'll take it, you know.
Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean there's there's you know there's the the usual problem that you always have with a platform holder and that's um so so Valve also produces games themselves.
Um so so they're a competitor.
Yeah.
Um but Valve um can see more data about your game than you.
Yeah.
They know more about your game and how players are using it than you. And uh if you look back in the history um the the last games that um actually created themselves that was a long time ago. And what they were doing is they were they were buying mods and um other games and

uh and running them. And the the reason why they were so successful with it is um they had all the data.
They knew which mods were working. Um they could see which ones had good retention rates, which you know it's it's it's they had a very unfair um market advantage um with looking all at all of this data. And um uh just lately they um they had a game uh a new game and they were testing it and they had a secret Steam page. Can can you create a secret Steam page? Right. Can you have a 100,000 players playing your game before you even have a page that is visible?
Right. And and that is where you know those are things I do not like. Um they are taking advantage of their of their market situation. And that is what someone with a monopoly does. Um and that's not cool, right? And and I think they do need to be regulated and uh they need to abide to some laws and and rules of fairness that they will not uh uh do on their own and they need to be forced to it. But altogether Steam is a great

thing and it's it it has a reason. It is the number one and all the gamers are there including me, right? And you
Yeah, gamers are they're gamer friendly. That's essentially
Absolutely. Absolutely. And uh and also uh you know I'm also one of these people that wants to have all their games in in that one place. Um I I don't want to have another launcher and another and
nobody liked that area where every game had its own launcher.
Yes, exactly.
Um I guess the the concluding question to this whole topic is what what's your Steam strategy for for the new game? So, so it is going to be on Steam obviously as you know there's a we're collecting the wish list there and we're going to launch on Steam and we're going to go mostly all in on Steam. We will also be um on our own website where we will distribute it ourselves and later on we are also going to go on Epic Game Store but that's just like a completion thing. Um the the um numbers are so clearly in

favor with Steam. Epic is just so much less. Um but you know it's it's still it's still worth it. It's not a big effort to do it. Um so so why not? But um no it's it's Steam and um for Steam it's um so the next phase that we're what we're aiming at is that um currently all our play testing are via our website. So it's just um download the client and um play uh during that phase and everything is managed on our side. And the next thing I really want to do is I want to push the Steam client and use the Steam testing features and have uh tests over Steam itself um to try out things there. That's one of the next things I want to do that are Steam related. We implemented the SDK a long time ago already, but we haven't got any of the features in yet. So no achievements, no and all those things, right? We've built it in a way that um we don't force the players to choose which kind of login they will need. Um,
so you you can you can have an account and you can link it um to a steam login

or to an epic login or any other open authenticate login basically.
Oh, that's very nice
because there are some solutions out there um so for instance epic online services if you use that as a game developer which sounds great first
but it actually forces your customers to create an Epic account
um so that they can log in in Steam which if Yeah. Exactly. So, as a gamer, you go like, "Really?"
Yeah.
But I've got a Steam account, right? Right. Why do I need an Epic account so I can log in with my Steam account?
No. No. If you're logged into your Steam account, you just want to hit play and not log lo in.
Exactly. Exactly. Yes. So, so there are a few things there. Um, uh, and what will happen is, uh, at some phase we're going to switch to, um, early access with the game. And, uh, we're not totally sure how we're going to do that yet. We're we're talking with the players what would be a good thing. A lot of them are suggesting that we uh actually have found the packages to limit the amount of players that can access the game in first place.

Mhm.
And then at the end of early access to switch to freeto play completely. So, the idea behind that is that players can basically um buy a package like for 20 bucks or whatever. Um and that gives them access to the whole early access phase of the game, but you keep out the people that just want to peek in.
Yeah.
Uh look at it, perhaps give you a bad review or not or whatever, right? But are not really invested into the game. And that helps you to have a strong community that likes your game when you open it up for everybody.
Interesting. So, but that's basically you're not price skating it as a quick money grabs, but specifically to do the opposite to keep players out that you don't want in the game yet.
Once again, one of those uh weird scenarios where where players are like, "Please make it expensive."
Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And it's it's it's it's also that, you know, if you um what you get then is people that are more engaged with your game because um these people are willing to pay 20 bucks for a game that is still in

development. And uh that's what we're talking about in early access. I mean there are a lot of games that are highly polished. So if you look at Inshrouded when they went into early access that was production level ready. Um
um but uh our game won't be our game won't be at that polished state. Um it will be an early access title. Um it means um we will be um throwing out systems. Systems might be clunky still and so on. Um because we actually believe in that uh we have to do these steps together with the community to create something that is interesting and that is not for everybody right um and if that would be free in this phase people that are not invested into the game and the idea of collaborating in this phase they they um they they would not value what they see. They would be more angry and pissed that something is not working and you know other games are at that level so why not yours and these things right? So, um I think I think it's more important to to um gatekeep your community in this case. And um at

the end, you know, you know, you're not talking about big amounts of money um 20 bucks for a phase that you can play in a service game um for for half a year or a year and then afterwards that is completely reset when the launch happens. So um you don't lose that. um you get the same amount um of value on launch plus extras.
So what you're actually doing is you're you're buying into a early access phase with a starting advantage later on.
That's you're actually only buying access to the game. That's what you're doing.
Yeah. Okay. I see. Interesting. Sounds sounds like a reasonable plan.
Yeah. But we haven't decided on it yet. So there's a lot of discussions around that yet. Um um and but it's uh it's like the it's like the the proposal from the community goes into this direction so far and I I can see I can see why uh I understand the why. Um you know on the

other hand you you you limit the the game and the amount of people that can come in obviously um we talked about earlier right so there might be people that say I don't want to pay 20 bucks um
and there might also be people who pay 20 bucks and then are like oh this was not worth it.
Exactly. That can happen as well. Of course. Yeah, of course. Of course. Right. And um so there's a lot of expectation management that you need to do there. And I mean it's the same for you, right? Um um when you find the price point for your game um and you say how how much is it worth, right? How how much is throne worth? There's different ways to find that out and actually there is even a economic scientific way to um find that price point which is quite interesting. So we we were also with our pricing in the last 30 years you like it was more like a guts feeling and
we perhaps still look at currency exchange rates and inflation rates in different countries and um um you know how much how much are competitors charging um for a title. Um which is all

interesting but not really um a scientific method to to find your price point and what is your best price point. And um there's actually a technique where you can um survey people and um you can then find out from questions that you ask what the most likely price point is where people will be paying what they are willing to pay for your product and then you can set it and that will basically you know it's a demand and availability um issue when how much you're going to make on that price point. And
how is this method called exactly or where can we research it? I'll have to look it up. I'll send it to you. Um,
so but the general idea is that you survey people. Basically, the idea is a fancy version of just ask the people and then you do some
Yeah. Not not quite because it um um it includes um so so just asking that wouldn't work because people um people don't give you the uh they'd have to give you the correct answer. So you

would have to ask like stepwise, right? You would have to ask um 100 people and say would you be would you pay $5.99? Would you pay 10 euros? Would you pay 15? Would you pay 20 euros? And then you would get a curve, right? Where people would say yes, no, yes, no, whatever. Right?
Then you have to see where you have to multiply the number of people by the
price. And I mean it's it's a basic economics classes um where you have these things and um but but the technique is it does more than that. Um I I will I will look it up and send it to you.
Perfect. I'll I'll put a link somewhere. Exactly. Now that we've sort of um completed this main story arc, I would love to ask at least a couple of questions for maybe advice you would give to developers who want to make their own online games cuz I think that's that's certainly very interesting. I think a lot of developers are super interested in making online games. Uh honestly, myself included. So, I'm also pretty much asking for myself like Paul and I, we're looking into making an online game next. Let's say

you're you're a small indie team and you want to make an online game. Where where should you start or or what advice would you give in general?
Right. Um so first of all, it's it's probably a good idea that that is not your first game that you're trying to complete.
Um mainly because creating games is difficult. It's it's not an easy task to begin with anyway. And um a single player game is easier to create than a multiplayer game or an online game. And so the first thing that you create as a team should be something in a scope that you can manage that you can handle and that the knowledge of the team um it's appropriate. So um if you've never done network coding and looked at that at all um and then your first project is an online game most likely not the best idea. Um and I'd start with a u with a regular single player game that I can finish and um you know gather experience of how to actually build a game. But when you've done that and you say, "No,

no, we want to make an online game now, right? This is a this is a um something that we want to do. It's cool. Um and it's uh we're interested in it." First of all, there are multiple um concepts um for multiplayer and online games. The um most important um difference would be um is it a session based game or is it a persistent game? And uh that has very big implications on what you're building and how you're going to build it. I guess for us the the thought is that the the easiest way to get into it is to make a sessionbased co-op game cuz
right
that would probably limit the problems of cheating a little bit cuz it's like you're not at the very least not playing against other players.
Mhm. And then not having any persistent data between matches or only having the persistent data stored locally makes it so that we don't have to host any massive database or something.
Yeah, exactly. So, so that is also um a

very very um important consideration is um how much infrastructure does which solution require and um so as soon as you've got a persistent game you have a lot of advantages. The disadvantage is that you're hosting all the servers and um basically everyone is going to be playing on your servers and you need that um that monster infrastructure with everything around it so that you can host these players. The um advantage of session session based games is obviously um you can have like um uh two players just connecting with their clients,
right, and playing together. Um the disadvantage is there's no way of preventing them to cheat. Um there's um uh there's um there's also a big problem if that is the core of the game and the problem that you get is you need a meta progression over it. So people play for a long time, right? So that's how all um multiplayer games, session based games basically work. So yeah,
you have a core session that is uh

something where you do something cool like play Fortnite, right? you run around and shoot each other and then um you earn some kind of point and you can spend that in the progression that is that what you keep. So I earn something in the session and then I can spend it in my progression outside of that session in the meta game.
I mean you don't need that necessarily but I I guess 90% of games would do that so so that players stay interested for longer.
Now if if that is the core loop of the game and there is no other way to play the game you get the following problem. Um, so, um, you're Jonas and I'm me, right?
Uh, and you start the game and I start the game and you are, um, advanced in the game already. So, you are level 40, whatever, right? So, you're very advanced already. You have a high progression and perhaps a higher power level or whatever. At least you know the b the game better than me.
And I'm a new player and I'm starting the game. Now, what you need is matchmaking. So, uh, I need I'm looking for someone to play with cuz I do not

have friends. Um, I'm a I'm a poor guy. I have no friends. I I need someone to play with. So, you're now matchmaking me. Now, the more players you require for one session, the the worse this problem gets. So, uh, now it's just us two, right? You're looking and I am looking and we're looking at exactly the same time and we're both in Germany. That's good. So, we can now be matched. But you know the game much better than me. you're going to win this session against me unless it's co-op, right? Whatever. But um mo most of the games are more competitive. So there's a winner and a loser.
And um so this means I'm going to lose this session. You're going to win this session and and everybody knows it, right? So that matchmaking is not good. So um the matchmaking will be changed and you're going to look for a new player, right? Uh and now you have the problem. Um I I press the button and say start game and now there's a a timer running. It goes uh 10 seconds, 15 seconds, and it's still looking for another player. The problem is you always need another player now, exactly

now, who's also looking for a game. So, I can match these two people, and they need to be in the same region because otherwise it will not work with ping rates and things like that over the internet. So, and now they start the session. And now it depends how long is the session. So, you you'll see where I'm getting with the problem. Now, um let's say the session is an hour and you play this game for 1 hour. Now, these two people from your community are not available for matchmaking for 1 hour. So, anybody else who's now pressing the button and saying, "I'd like to play," there's two players less in the pool that are possible. So, you need a lot of people online at the same time looking for a match so that you can find someone to play with.
That that is the main issue with this type of game. And uh the shorter the session, the the the um the better it it it it gets for this. That's why a lot of these mobile games have 5 minute sessions. Yeah.
So if you look at the Supercell games, they're all limited in basically they have a forced end. And

that is because otherwise this pool it gets worse and worse the problem. So it segments even more with players higher levels and leagues and all these things and um
you need um a ton of people to make it fly and you need a ton of people to test it. So, just to test that um uh during a time period of 1 hour, everybody can find someone to make a match, you'll have to invite more than 10,000 people
so that
you can press a button and there's going to be one other person there
that will play with you.
Um yeah, and that showcases the problem a bit, right? So, um these games need to be big. they need to attract a lot of people at the same time and the the session times need to be short so that um the matchmaking queue works. It's obviously something different if you just have you know co-op. So you have a single player core and then you say
optionally I can play with a buddy. I can invite him then I'll just call him

and say hey turn on your PC log in now we're playing together.
I I guess there's the easiest way to start with online I would say.
Exactly. That's definitely the easiest way. Um, as soon as you go into the session thing, you have the problem that you need so so many players to make it work and testing is expensive and and the uh so the user acquisition also is expensive because you need so many players there. As wise, what happens is I press the button
and after one or two minutes I say no one here and I delete the game.
Mhm. Yeah.
That that's what's going to happen. People say it's dead. No one's playing.
Yeah. Matchmaking is very difficult and you need a lot of players to make it work.
Exactly. There's something I want to ask you and that is do you think intentionally going for the more difficult to make games is worth it in the way that you sort of have a natural mode because because it is so difficult there like there are less games with like really good matchmaking. There are less for example I I would also say
MMO RPGs are notoriously difficult to

make and a lot of developers are not brave enough to make them. Do you think there's also an advantage in the way that there are fewer of these games or
No,
no, no. There's still sadly there's still enough.
It's still a very it's highly competitive and uh and it's and it's still what happens is um so it's exponentially more um expensive to make um than than a single player game. Um, so it's not just uh that you add this. There's a lot more things you need to make sure are there and we're working um
uh for for for a real online game, right? Um so if you make this session based game or you make a persistent game world which is easier if you consider it. So a persistent game world um the game world is always running and all players lock into that world.
So you can play there alone while you're there
and everyone else can join you. the more the more fun, right? But you don't have

a matchmaking issue. Um that that's why um a persistent online game um it can run with few players.
Interesting. Mhm.
While a session based game, it always requires more players and the the problem multiplies um the more players you're going to have in one session. So one versus one easier, two versus two, it quadruples.
Mhm.
So um it's not linear. it makes it worse, a lot worse. And and so so those are the elemental differences already. Um um and you need to consider what you're going to do and how you're going to solve um the disadvantages that come with that decision um when you make the game. So we we did a lot of session based games that failed um and they usually failed because of that scaling issue because it is really difficult to um get the matchmaking working worldwide for a game like that
because you need gamers in every region and in every region you need a lot of

gamers so that they don't have to wait. you can do some tricks, right? So, you can add like bots if you don't find someone and um things like that. But ultimately, it's um it it comes with difficulties in that area. And um another thing where they have a disadvantage is so the uh to make the game secure um and prevent online cheating um in that game, it's it's much more difficult to solve the issue if you do not have a server that is in control. So in online gaming, what we always say is if you give the client out to your customer, you're giving it to the enemy, right? So the game is in the enemy's hand.
It's like everything that can be changed uh like
yes will be changed
will be changed like they're in full control of everything that happens on their machine. Yeah. And if you don't have a server and the protocol is basically that, you know, I'm sending if I hit you in the game or not and the client decides if it's true or not, I can send whatever I want.

Yeah.
And they will. They will. That's what's going to happen, right? So, um it's a lot more difficult to make sure that um there's no cheating in a session based game versus a server based game
because if if multiple clients are basically just connecting without a server with each other, right? So, it's it's just peer-to-peer based actually. It's very difficult to make sure there's no cheating there. And if a game is successful, they will cheat. Um
it it just will happen. It's it's it's basically a law. And um so so the main mindset is yes everything you give to the client uh um uh in the client is in the enemy's hand and it will be used um to to break the game and to abuse something in the game. The other thing is that when you start making a game like that you should think about the system architecture well before you start um coding. So, so um with a single player game, you can often just start

with a core loop for instance, right? So, you just start with something that you think is interesting and you're going to try it out and you can start playing. Now, for a multiplayer game, you need the basic infrastructure. You need to log in uh into the session or into the persistent game world. You need to be able to run around before you can implement the first feature of the call loop. M
so you have to build infrastructure before you can actually do something and uh that's what you have to start with that. So you have to start with uh I you can you can still prototype the core gameplay that you want in a single player gamy thing right and try out if it's fun before you do the expensive part but once you start building the game you have to start with um the basics that you can actually lock in into something and play with each other. Later you add it the more difficult it will be. So um you you have to start with that um basic technology and I think the the biggest mindset difference

is if you build a single player game um performance and anything that is happening it's limited to one person and one computer and um as soon as you have an online game this um this is not the case anymore. It it multiplies with scale. problems that you do not have in your code when you have one person, two p people, a few people playing. It changes when you have 100, 500 or a thousand people. Your code has to be efficient and you have to think in that way when you write it already. So you always have to think what will happen if if I put a number in there with 1 million.
Hi. Yeah. So what I get from all of this is that it is very very difficult to make online games.
Uh no, it's not. It's it's it's just a different it's a different task. And um as with um as with a single player game when when you start out um you you need to try out things. You need to practice first.
So the the first games that you made um

they were definitely different and and not as polished as your games are now. And that's because you know more about game development. You know more about programming languages and the engines and all those things that you're using. And uh the I'd say your games do not push the engine to its limit.
Um with an online game, you are often on the limit of technology
and you need to you need to push yourself there um to reach that bit. So
for instance, it's it's probably good idea to start with a top down game.
Um because the top down game it limits the performance issues you can have. Now, if you imagine you have a single player game, you are in total control of performance. There's no one else that can that can interfere because you can you can make sure that never more than um X units are on the screen, X effects are on the screen and so on. In an online game, let's say you have a

thousand players, they can all move to the same spot and use a spell with a graphical effect at the same time
and that will crash your server. And uh so those are these edge cases and these scale things that you need to think of while you do it.
Now if you play these kinds of games and um you build these kinds of games over over a long time you you you get this mindset. So in our team it's you know someone comes up with your idea um our first reaction is how can I break it right? It sounds destructive. Um and um I'm pretty sure that you do not think that way. So, um um if if you talk with colleagues about, you know, going to add this feature, you're probably going to be talking about the positive things that it could bring to the game. Online game is always what can I what can I destroy with this feature? What can I abuse with this feature, right?
Um because if it fails this test, it cannot be in the game. It's just not possible. I'll give you a very nice

example that's a very easy one. Okay? So, um, in online games, you can usually create a character, right? So, imagine you're playing an MMO RPG and you create your character and, um, the developer is really kind and he gives you he gives you a weapon and he gives you ammunition and he gives you a healing kit, right? You get that with character creation. It's for free. Okay. Now, in most of these games, you can create multiple characters. So what players will do is they will create a character, take the items out, put them in their inventory, delete the character, create a new character, and they'll just continue with that. And now if these things are worth something in the game, they can make a fortune. So all these items have to be you can't sell them, you can't trade them. If you destroy them, you won't get anything of worse for them. They are basically empty shells.
Mhm.
If that's not the case, the players will abuse it. you have to to think of all all of the exploits. I guess I I guess the question I was getting at is

if if it's so exponentially or if it's just more difficult to make online games and quite significantly so then why is it still worth it? Why why do so many people still do it? It's it's worth it because of um uh the reason why our company is thriving. And the reason is the regular um the regular rhythm for game development companies is um they go out, they talk with a publisher, the publisher, they pitch their idea for for a project, a game. The publisher will say um yeah, great idea, we'll fund it. Publishers only make sense if they fund a game. Otherwise, you do not need a publisher. So, if you have money to make your game, a publisher doesn't make sense. Now uh the publisher funds your game. Um you create the game. Uh the publisher publishes the game and sells it. Takes his share and gives you some money. Right? Now this has to be enough money so that your studio can create the next game. And that is where most studios break. So um imagine you create

a game and it will cost you 5 million bucks to create and it only sells for 9 million.
It's a success, right?
Yeah. No, it's not because your next game can now only cost four. And that that's the issue that you have. Um um you have to make um enough money to create the next game. And ideally, you have some money that you can put aside as well, right?
Yeah, I guess. And that is the situation that most of the other game studios are in is that um they cannot fund game development themselves. They need the money from the publisher. the publisher takes a big share and the payout is not enough to create the next title and um
so like the infinite funding loop. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. And that kills and that kills you as soon as one of your games does not perform as intended or overperform
which is easily happened and um
so so that is the issue. Now why why is the holy grail a service game then?

Because if you manage to create a service game, which is difficult, it's difficult to pull off. But if you manage it, first of all, there's a lot more money in it because um you're talking about years that you're getting money from that one title, right? So, when you publish a game, you'll have a spike in the first week of sale, perhaps 2 days, and then it goes sharp down. And then every time you have a sale on Steam, you'll get a little bump that goes up and down. But basically, it's a it's a dead line after that. And um you you're not making many sales. Um so um the most revenue you'll make on the title is in this first week.
That is correct. I am I can confirm,
right? And and and that is a big issue because um basically after two days, you know, if you're going to be bankrupt or not as a studio.
It's tough, right? So you've worked four years, 5 years on this game. and you put it out and after two days you know that you're not going to make enough money.

It's it's not going to pay off. Um or yes, it's going to pay off. It's going to make roughly that amount, but you're not going to make more money out of this title anymore. You can bring out a few DLCs, whatever, right? But it's not going to pay the money you need to pay your team and to create the next title. Now, with an online game, a service game, uh to be to be precise, if it works, you are getting money every day. M
every day somebody is paying and this money is coming to you as a company. So you have a cash flow every day and for years for years to come. So if
do you think this is something that can be realistically achieved by small indie teams today that they maybe start something and then grow into a bigger studio similar to what did?
Yes, definitely definitely. Um it's it's definitely possible. It's not it's not like it's um it's never been easier to create things like this, right? It's never been easier to create games. Um

there I mean uh even if you can't program, you can create games nowadays, right? I mean uh you can use chat GPT and whatever and and and uh and and vibe yourself to a game. It's it's possible now. And um it
is possible. Yeah.
If it's a good idea, it's it's not easy. It's frustrating as well. Yeah, you're not going to learn very much,
I guess. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely getting easier. That's right. So, so you you would obviously say that also applies to online games like for example, there are like third party solutions that try to build frameworks specifically for online games like Photon and
I'm not sure if you've heard of uh Spaceime DB is an interesting one that I also saw recently.
Yeah, it's it's it's an interesting idea. Um uh but uh you have to tailor your game to the tech. Yeah.
And um and I think this is the biggest difference to a single player game. Um the single player game um whatever you're going to do, it's just limited by the uh the performance prospects of the

engine. So the the engine will tell you, you know, this game idea that you're doing uh um is not going to work. Yeah. I think the biggest mistake people will do there is um too many features and a too expensive production. So basically aiming too high for what the team can do. So if you would have said thronefall um super realistic graphics you know HDRP realistic water flow across lighting uh everything has to be 3D modeled and animated that that game would have cost a lot lot more it would have been really expensive to make and but uh the team has to make a choice in their scope um what they can do themselves what they can manage and there's um no problem in making an online game with stylized graphics that you can create yourself easily. The performance is not an big issue there if you go top down, right?
Um you can handle a lot of things more easier, but you need to you need to choose your battles more carefully than

in a single player game.
Yeah. So I I guess the the game plan is to really dial down your scope on almost everything else because you already know that making something multiplayer is going to take up a lot a lot of your time.
Exactly. I guess the challenge then is to on top of that make a game because you have to reduce the scope down so much to even make it possible to make the game. The challenge is then to find something that engages player for players for a long time despite the scope
despite despite that you're scaling down on the scope. I mean the thing is that if it's successful you can always add on lot later because it's not over the the the production just starts then
um it's it's never ending right. So the uh there's also a lot of other things. So if you look at the performance, right? Um if you have a single player game, um you could create a a really nice 3D game running around and you know you can have cloth simulation on and and it looks awesome. It's it's lovely, isn't it? It's brilliant. But uh now you

have 100 players running around in front of you on the screen and all of them have cloth simulation on.
It's not going to work,
right? It just won't work. So the maximum is that your character has cl simulation on.
Um and that is one reason why a lot of online games look worse than single player games do because they have to push so much more technology-wise. Um but the player they don't care, right? They'll they're not going to sit there and say, "Hey, wow, it's because um you know because of these technological reasons." They'll just say it looks crap compared to
um and and that's fair. That's fine, right? And it's your job as a developer to find a solution for that issue, for that problem.
The indie way to solve this is to just stylize the heck out of
Exactly. And and and that is a very good idea. And that's what I meant, right? Um when when we started out creating Persist, we also sat down and you know um we said h how are we going to handle this? This is a persistent game world. This is very large. We want to create a

game where you can enter every building, every room. Everything is propped and there's cities in the game.
Yeah.
And it's 50 square kilometers.
Great idea. Two people.
So, how are you going to prop all of this right now? Um the the solution is that you do not have high resolution graphics because if I have a um a stylized look, um first of all, we can learn Blender so far that we can create these things ourselves. Um so even if there's not an artist there, I can create it myself and it's good enough. That's one. Uh number two, let's say I decorate a room. I put a bed in it. I put a shelf in it. Um uh I do not need many things in a stylized look to give the room an identity. Uh at the end, I can place one or two interesting objects and they will tell a story in the room. But if I do this in high definition, the room will look empty.
You will just come in and go like empty room, bottle here, book here, boring,

next room. Right? So you need to add more and more details which makes it more and more expensive. And I think one of the biggest mistakes people make general in game design or in game development is that they are blinded by AAA titles and they want to create that look and the engines allow you to do it. You can take an Unreal create a meta human. It looks awesome. It's great. And you got this rendered um real texture whatever um landscape that looks photo realistic. Great, you can run around and it looks like a AAA title in that moment, but you can't add anything because adding things to this system is so expensive that you will not be able to pay the cost as an indie team. And and uh uh as soon as you then leave Metahuman and have to create something outside of it, you know, your team won't have the capability of doing it because you've never done it and it's really difficult. Um it's it's um it's it's AAA level stuff. And the next thing, and I know that you're a big fan of that, your

game needs to stand out. There's so many games out there, and when people look at your game and they look at the screenshot, they're not allowed to say, "I don't know which game it is."
Yeah,
that's a really bad idea. So, if I use Metahuman for everything in my game, it's just another Unreal game and they all look the same. And I guess in particular for online games because um
yes
a lot of them are fantasy stylized. Yeah, they have a very specific look and that is also a reason why we decided to take another approach when we did Persist. Um so Persist has a a distinctive enough look that when you look at it it is you don't get an association with another game. um once you look at the screenshot you'll go like okay I can see zombies I can see it stylized but it has it has a mix of um mid poly and low poly mixed into into the game basically and uh we we make sure that it is not a screenshot that you'll get mixed up with any other game

there are so many more things I would like to ask you but I think at this point the solution is just to bring you back at some point cuz
and to not feature
exactly are there any final words from your side or anything you would like to shout out. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Um, it was really fun. It's always fun talking to you about games and uh it's the only thing that you can do in this craft is um to to constantly learn and to look at new things and how they work and to question yourself and your game and everything and that's how you make progress. for for people out there that are creating a game or or starting with game development or thinking of you know taking the next step there. I think what we talked about earlier is to to have clarity about if you're going to be this is going to be a hobby um or if this is um something where you say I want it to be a business and then treat it that way or if you're happy with it just being a hobby be a hobby right a great hobby there's nothing nicer than creating games and having fun with that but it's

a different thing making money with it and living of it and um there's a lot of downsides um in this business. It's a very fast business. It's a very competitive business. It's it's also a very friendly industry. Um I've I've never met any industry where people are so open to each other and uh you know there's no trade secrets or things like that. Actually, everyone talks about everything because
everyone also knows that at the end of the day uh you have to create the game yourself. There's a nice analogy that uh you know a project never wants to finish it. it it's uh it will always stand up against you and you can push that point further back, but it will always require that last push to finish it. And um
so so just do the push.
Hopefully this was uh entertaining and uh some useful advice or um ideas in there for for everyone listening. And if you want to um check out our game or um Jonas's games um which are great as

well.
Is there a Steam page for Persist already?
Uh yes, that's there already. And you can wishlist the game and you can also sign up for play tests.
That's awesome. There'll be that'll I guess that'll be the first link in the description then.
Awesome.
Um fantastic. Thanks so much again for for taking the time.
This was a game dev podcast with your host Jonas Tyroller and today with Beyamin Tokara from Tipsoft. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and I'll see you in the next