How To Make Games ALONE In 2025 — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 022

um okay Mr Thomas Salah welcome back to the podcast how you doing buddy I'm good I'm good awesome I'm really excited to talk to you because it's going to be kind of a therapy session because you're you seem to be such a chill solo game developer you've had really good success in the indie game industry and people have heard me rant and talk about how the indie game industry is I don't know or at least the game industry is struggling right now and you've sort of walked me off of the ledge in recent months just telling me about your thoughts about the indie game industry and so I'm I I I want to talk all about that in this podcast but first tell us a little bit about yourself and what you've done in your career all right I'm Thomas I'm Dutch uh I've been in the gamec for I don't know 25 going on 25 years doing all kinds of stuff because in the Netherlands we didn't have triaa so I've done everything up to AA a uh but including making games uh for SE

Sony interactive uh so we had a first party published VR title had a studio didn't enjoy that then I went solo made mods if people might know me from the Skyrim mods moonpath to elsewhere there's a lot of game deaths that have fun modding uh did that then I did uh some solo games best known as maybe the falconer in the US which was a series X launch title uh and just recently I launched bullwark Falconer Chronicles Which is my attempt at you know hacking together something that works on Steam and uh is a stable stable source of income success and enjoyable thing to work on it's like City Builder so seems to have worked so uh that's me wait what's that called it's so the city Builder is called what again bullwark okay so but it's part of the falconer Brin it's in the falconer units yeah we're going to talk about franchises and IPS yes yes I I cannot wait to talk about that for people that haven't seen it so imagine uh I think I started out at the same time it was

little bit before the tiny Glade team so come up in this second batch of people who were inspired by townscaper so it's a really casual City Builder but it's in an open world so it's like a 50x 50 kilm open world that has other people in it you can go to war with it it's like a sort of a a chill 4X game uh but with Organic City Builder you know aot townscaper so is it is it hitting the Cozy game no I [ __ ] hate cozy uh it's it's chill it's chill so it's it's I like relax game yeah I don't I I [ __ ] hate it's non micromanage so it's a Streamlight as you can get there's resources there's a bit of combat there's making units there's a modum of diplomacy there's all that uh but it's not intend to be deep just Grand you know so you're building these entire big cities but you know you're not managing the toilet paper at your barracks and [ __ ] like that it's it's it's casual it's like a chill Builder

but I don't like that cozy fbe why do I need to look at some Childish baby [ __ ] when I'm trying to relax I like stuff to be epic and full on and I want to build moreor then you want to build moreor but uh I don't want to have spent 52 hours reading a manual doing it so that's the that's sort of the the vibe it's it's weird it's a weird combination of stuff but I enjoy bashing stuff together and then confusing people so exactly okay so when it comes to I want to talk about Universe building as it pertains to indie game developers I want to talk about that in just a sec but before we do that can you tell us was it was it easy for you to become a full-time indie game developer by the way if you're like me and you always dreamt of making an indie game as a full-time job I have a free webinar below that goes into exactly how to make six figures with just a demo I was just like you for years I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game I've done this multiple times so

check it out below if you do want to go fulltime Indie and thanks for watching it it kind of it seems that way because you were part of the industry the AAA industry right no not the triple but but I had that so we did work for hire and Outsourcing all that uh I even worked for advertising and made web games and mobile games but um I think it's it's touches upon this topic I've seen where people cuz I'm a solo de so I work alone was a topic and nowadays if you're if you're on going on on Reddit R Game Dev it's all you know I'm a solo do I've been working on this game for 2 years and it's their first game uh and often they're disappointed at what happens uh so solo do has become a by word I am working on a game alone whereas for me it's an end stage uh and not even I say it's an end station but it's not even the best one cuz I got burned out from working in teams I don't think I'm could be manageable anymore or be a great manager so and then there's nothing else left

for me then to make games that's all I've ever done that's all I capable that's where my talent Lies by myself so that's an end of life story rather than you know I'm just starting out I I I just figured out Unity now I'm making my dream game that that's for me that's i' I've never had that for me it was this was the garbage and you know the the parachute uh or the garbage yeah so this is it this is what I ended up doing so it happened cuz I couldn't go on in the studio it's not a happy story burnout and when you're not happy in your life you get angry at stuff it's very recognizable and then it becomes hard to uh be manageable that's in the best way so there's all these stories about [ __ ] running Studios becoming dictators or abusing people I got out just before that but that would have been the end game so uh and and what happened I started I did some modding just just to get me through a burnout uh that was hyper successful made no money cuz modding was free um and then I

rolled into well I'll make an indie game I failed at making one first cuz you got to have your failures and then I made to Falconer and Microsoft gave me a little bit of money and it was just enough for me to go sit with my uh my partner mother of my children say I got a little bit of money I got us a year and a half um I want to do this but if it fails yeah we'll both you know we need to find an actual real world job you know work at McDonald's or whatever uh it wasn't that dire but Microsoft gave me some money so I knew there was going to be some success and that's how it rolled and then I just said bye to the studio and left with whatever I had how did you get money from Microsoft a lot of people listening right now are like what it's like it almost feels like impossible Everything's changed now we'll talk about later but we all know the industry last two years but back in the days so this only four years ago I know but it was so different back then it was so different yeah and there's these things still exist in a way so

there's still so there's different tiers of things you get so the top tier for Microsoft is a Game Pass deal so for Game Pass deal you get x00 thou or some people even got million plus deals for their game to be exclusive on Game Pass uh but so so the first thing you but that's the end game the but the first thing you can sell is exclusivity so Microsoft digs your game and they will want you to and release it only on their platform so this was big for a decade before uh the modern times is that you would sell that's where we got exclusive from you know uh it wasn't always just oh Microsoft this is a Microsoft Studio or Sony studio n they would just find this game say well okay we'll give you a lot of money to be exclusive to our platform for a period let's say a year or sometimes fully uh and then that's how you got oh it's only releasing on PlayStation and then suddenly a year later it would release on Xbox stuff like that or PC uh well so four years ago Microsoft did did that they would

offer such deals small deals but you could still release on Windows cuz Windows is a Microsoft platform people forget about that Microsoft is Windows so so they had this really generous deal where they'd offer you a modest amount of money uh for 6 months or a year exclusivity and you could still release on Steam 6 months later or right no right right off the bat yeah apple did the same for me by the way with apple arcade yeah yeah yeah if it doesn't bite they don't mind so uh and then you get and and the budgets for that I think I believe the I I don't know that but back then it was you know around 100,000 whatever us uh was the top I think for small Indies and it's that's not a huge amount for for Xbox it's uh so those that they would take some risks on that this has potential and basically I think it was exclusivity and they would the budget was actually allocated for you to be able to afford to Port it to uh Xbox right so uh I didn't use it to P

to Xbox and I don't think a lot of people did because you can do that for a lot less than 100 I use it to make finish the game did they know this yeah and but and and how did these deals happen you just meet someone from Microsoft I think that's the good thing about Mark they were around you know Sony or even apple or well I've met Apple people but Sony or even steam has never up until recently they weren't around at major events you couldn't find what had a talk at GDC but it's not like they were approachable now they have coffee setups and you can meet with them but back in the days uh Microsoft were the ones that would go to like something like a game connection and be able on the schedule from do you want to schedule a meeting with this senior person at Microsoft and they'd look at your game and you can have a discussion about uh what you want and it's the fun thing is for any deal in life which people when you're fresh um or naive you get oh your first inst to go to someone like Mark but what do you want uh but

that's not how it works you say well and I said I want to release my game only on platform and PC you know I don't want to have to do multiple porings cuz I'm by myself that's a lot of work so I'm looking for a home for this game to release on and attached to and Microsoft guy said but yeah we can be that let's let's see what happens yeah and then you go into this process of you know takes nearly takes a God awful time to get a contract and it has to go to corporate and stuff but that's that's a way in and that and then there's like an escalator of deals that can follow ending up with game pass but in the meantime I had a publisher and stuff like that uh but so so you don't stumble in you have to be at the right places this was a physical thing you know it was in San Francisco at game Connection in 1998 uh 2018 not 1998 I'm not so would you recommend people listening right now to go to these events and try and sign deals there or is it different now so so um uh uh they actually there's ways to so

nowadays you have the big Indie pitch and all those you have all these things and then they they require because these organizations have to rent a space there's like 100 bucks or something and and and big deals are there people are there to make deals people need games you're making games be there if you're not there you can't compete and it can also be virtually but sign up for your game to be shown a lot of this stuff is remote we don't need to physically be there it helps uh but yeah for certain part of the scene is part of the success if you're not part of the scene nobody can make a deal nobody get can find you sympathetic or say well I saw that game is really interesting it's really tickling me I want to help that person out that can only help if they get to know you yep so yeah being part of the scene did you have a demo to show them yeah what was that like uh well practically I think I had it running on a switch even because we didn't have steam deck so I brought a switch which always worked because I had one from the

old studio uh back borrow and steel uh I don't think that's allowed to be done but uh everybody does it uh so I had this I had this mobile demo of the game I had a trailer I made uh which wasn't released cuz back back then and there's still Publishers and parties like for games not to be released before you make a deal so they can handle the release I knew that uh it was a like a there was like one miss it's like proper vertical slice and it looked nice so you could fly around and shoot stuff and do a mission and land so they had the the game Loop cohesive if not unpolished and just one Mission okay and I shop that around and uh so people could play it I I I think there there we came from a period for the last 10 years where you could sell a pitch or a video or you could sell something that wasn't fully developed I I think those days are gone nowadays you need a vertical slice to sell anything uh and it needs to be playable nobody's

going to sign or give money on on paper even with the best betree so really what you're saying is just a really strong demo everything else is [ __ ] every you know you need a pitch deck but it's just pictures from your demo it a pitch deck is just you know your face who are you what's your uh uh credentials the you know the the elevator pit you know uh uh and then some screenshots showing some content of the game and how much content and then a planning that's it do these platforms do this anymore because I'm getting the impression that at least in 2024 and maybe 2025 it's harder to strike a deal with these with the platforms not Publishers but the platforms deal deals are gone for a little bit um they're making deals with other games for less money it's just money's gone for a little bit money got back and then know want deals um though I think that the the changes here are here to stay I think some of these deals are still around they're just at different places there's smaller deals

for less money in the end I think it was an exceptional period of growth for games industry where a lot of money got thrown around um it's not something you can count on I think a lot of studios and people sort of started to count I can get a Game Pass deal or I can get some some sort of deal and support I don't think you can count on it regardless who you are I don't think it's it's it's it's it's bonus money I don't think it's it's and I think a lot of people started to depend on it as as a solid Dependable part but it was Microsoft growing their business and at some point that's always going to end yep it's basically when you say that I I I imagine it's something like Microsoft being willing to burn cash Apple being willing to burn cash to to catch up and and get to the front of the line in this huge like it was a subscription service race everyone was trying to get to the top of the the sub Subscription Service race and now in

2024 it's almost like I don't even know what I don't know what the platforms want anymore do they want to start selling physical copies again do or they I think in a sense um but I I'm very pragmatic I in a sense I think there was a period where the big platforms like PlayStation or apple or Xbox they thought they could be running the market so they had to be in front with the newest games and the hottest games and they figured out like net that they thought Netflix because Netflix the market leader they always insatiable hunger for new content um and I figured out that hunger isn't there people are happy with games that are 6 months old or a year old uh and they still making the same money as they did when they announced all these big AAA games gotcha uh uh so they're seeing well okay we can get all these Indies for cheap or the Double A's we have our big flap ship titles they all failed to produce new

games as a surface hot tickets so um I think this is here to it's it's an organ I think they realize you can't beat steam or the places where Indies are or where games are being hits are being born are not console are not mobile uh they are in the organic places well basically steam uh and these hits then you can have them later and still have the benefit so I think that's sort of where we're at now that uh the thing is Consolidated it's cool down okay so we we're not going to have a Netflix for games uh we're going to have it but it's it's not you know uh it's like it's always been but right right it's not relying on new hits yeah and for me PCS and steam especially it's already one uh they can't compete so for for for Content creation if you fail on Steam there is no no survival if you fail on cont so it's not a problem as long as

you're Sur surviving on on on Steam and steam is a meritocracy it's flawed in many ways but it is a system you can survive in uh and whereas you have no control in on on consoles you are at the mercy of a curated and I I I think people like you and me I two years ago we were begging for a curated service so we can service and visibility and I think Val were right it's not going to happen and it's not your best interest cuz if you're not curated if you're not in a happy Fe you lose so a a surface that is a general open ocean and stuff bubbles up and that can be successful um is in the end more it's volatile and aggressive and but it is fairer and you can survive and if you do survive uh that's where Microsoft and Playstation will make the deals you know it's it's it's interesting it's like um steam is essentially a social media platform and

correct me if I'm wrong here I think you I think you have a better idea than I do but the way I see it is steam is something like a social media platform because it's algorithmic and it's your game can your game will almost certainly Thrive if you have a certain number of wish lists so it's something like it's something like YouTube or Twitter where it's like if you if you have a following you're going to sell your G okay so I I've been going around saying that the game industry will be like YouTube so I think YouTube is the better ology than say Facebook or CU it's not a so I don't think Ste I don't think Val wants it to be a social network because I've been begging for I would love a proper timeline for me instead of the [ __ ] blog you know the you know the [ __ ] to communicate with users is primitive on Steam uh or for someone like me and you that this is a huge disadvantage because we can't leverage our ability to create engaging contact or engage with users Beyond a [ __ ] Forum or or you know a blog post so it's it's outdated so but it's YouTube is a great analogy so if

you look at YouTube we've got triaa It's let's call it Hollywood so we have Hollywood that's AA a it's like a dip separate World they've got celebrities hundreds of millions they've got Marvel properties we all love and known for 50 years it's a separate world then there's YouTube and YouTube has several stages you have Mr Beast and people like that who have their own ecosystem with their own PR firms making literally billions or Millions uh and then there are several then there's an entire section of people who making you know got a few million subscribers they're making good money you know they might have their own PR agencies and they're making sponsor deals but sponsor deals for like 50,000 bucks not for 500 million uh but underneath that is a lot of people who don't make any money are just hobbyist well that's actually a perfect analogy for the games industry what we have we have hobbyist Indies and then we have double A or triple Indies um and YouTube Services them based on what they put in

because you can see people you know if you're not going to be professional on YouTube you're going to fail if you're not at twitch cor or whatever if you're not making the Networks you're there is a path to success if you don't follow the path it's very hard to be successful and yes there are random occasional viral hits that go boing uh but lots of people don't have to be that random ping they just work at it and grow their onions and then make a living so so that that is I think that's that's where we're at and that's what it's going to be um uh and I think for people need to realize that and that's uh when you're in Indie that also means how do you do that starts to change how you deal with Publishers and platforms because you're building your brand on your your real estate that should be your goal yeah so uh uh this I think it's a uh just don't build your bliss on other people's property and and and and steam is as close as you can can get to your own property whereas you know if you're in

Game Pass that's not your property you can't manage your Xbox page or your PlayStation page or even your Apple page Beyond some basic info this is not the place you own but on Steam I can hack it I can try you know I can put I don't have a timeline but I put up a Blog every week and I'll use it as a Blog uh I have forums I can integrate my Twitter and stuff it's my store uh and I can grow and connect all the products I have so in a sense YouTube and steam are related in how I think they should be approached and I think some of the interested cases are not necessarily people like me who aren't inl but are people like you or pirate software who are blending these spaces figuring out how personality and Renown can um can help you be also a successful Game Dev and vice versa um I think that's it's that is of this time so that is one of the strategies to survive I enjoy uh

watching and it's just you can see it happening in front of your eyes so what we've got essentially is it's it's hard to explain but basically it's something like audience ownership so steam allows you to build an audience that will will follow you and follow your work and so if you build the falconer you can then build another game on top of that audience and then sell to that audience again is that true yeah it's 100% audience ownership and for me the inspiration is not being a video celebrity or yeah but it's being a fantasy writer cuz they do the same thing you've bought the first three books from Game of Thrones the fourth one was unreadable uh it's too long but you're already invested and you hope the fifth one is great so you suck it up and buy the fourth one that is owning your audience so that's why 10 years ago or 20 years you buy a fantasy book and there be singular book oh he's got a new

book and then suddenly they started doing trilogies and now every fantasy order is do 12 pieces cuz that's where the money is that's how you survive you've owned your audience in you know a cycle of books uh I do that well with the franchise which that it's just a different thing it's just you're a franchise cuz you're uh uh you know you're content creator you're a cult personality in a way um uh so that's your brand my brand is is a detach for myself a little bit but I'm sort of hybridizing so it's part me I'm the author but it's the falconer universe and it has its own un uh audience that I bring with me so I think what the the all these other places that where you can get extra Mone figure out is that it's people like that to have their own audience who are interesting because they can tap into that audience and that's where you can start to make deals again you know I've I've kind of gone through a lot of different Paths of making money as a game devel developer I I think I've done almost all of them um and what I've

found is that if you want to take money from a publisher or you want to take money from a platform it's totally fine if you have no money and you got to do it I I think people should do it at least to get started and get into the industry right because you got to do something to go full-time I mean you you've got to go full-time to to to make a good game but but I love what you've done which is okay been there done that it's time to do my own thing and self fund and build my own Universe I I have a publisher but I self so I hybridized so I have a different type of deal but the first the falconer is done very conventionally because that money from Microsoft ran out and uh I needed people to help me uh but I I am moving towards full self-publishing that I think that's that's where the future lies so I am hybridized for buar is hybridized at the moment uh but sometimes you need you can't do everything by yourself but yeah

the Publishers in general I think the age of Publishers for in is sort of over because the money is not going to be there uh so that it'll be the same thing you will have Publishers who own their audience like devolver owns Their audience they have a very loyal audience and you're playing a devolver game not really a developer game so those those guys will be around but the Publishers that don't I don't think they can survive cuz the game is we're matured now you know we're competing with games 5 years or old we're Computing with competing you know Ubisoft is in trouble because they're competing against their own games yep so where does the money come from if Publishers are if Publishers are dead and I'm not I'm not sure if I agree with you I'm I'm I'm partly there but where where is the money going to come from but they're not going to be dead some of them is going to be still successful cuz there's people that need money but the let's put it like this the industry the amount of money that goes around for new games so

there's you know cuz we've given up half the industry to games as a surface like fortnite whatever they're taking half the money together with all games so people with Publishers with back cataloges will also survive you know Will Survive CU I still want to play Assassin's Creed 4 which is a decade old game but I haven't played it uh so so that'll all be there but for new games to be made the market the market will just be smaller the market will keep growing so the market will still be healthy but it's not as big as it has been cuz you're competing with all these things so if you're young and playing games yeah you're spending more money on what Battlefield and fortnite and what's left you'll try a uh any game once in a while but you're actually you you can only spend that money once so that's what the market that's what everybody's feeling we're all earning half of what we we're earning 4 years ago it's true uh and it's literally if you it's literally half uh and it means that was

actually the half we were sharing with the Publishers so when you're now a studio and when you can afford you looking at this game okay we're earning half or we can make half the game get half the marketing or you cut that out and uh make your own game and then it becomes an interesting proposition it's at some point say yeah what if I don't port to console what if I don't translate I just release on Steam and play the steam system and if it's a hit then I'll find a publisher to do all these other things you know Port it invest it do 26 languages all that [ __ ] make deals with Microsoft whatever and they can take their share cuz I already owning my you know my audience and my success and then they'll come uh so so I think that in that sense it's a different approach we're going the entire idea of sim shipping is always you know it's not yeah that's gone for me I I don't do that anymore I I tell Indies now when I ask is I I heard this story about a Polish

publisher um and apparently he's not a not a beloved publisher because whatever but they go around when when you pitch something say oh we'll give you 10K whatever to make a trailer um uh and then we'll put the trailer in the show so that cost them a little money if the trailer does more than 10,000 wish list in the first month we'll fund whatever you need it's all done we're going to do it if it doesn't there's no bread in it we're not funding it and NE neither should you keep keep continue working on it CU it's not going to be a success that is an extreme example and people go oh that's horrific and horrific I think no that's just the future that's where we're at now this is what every Indie who is serious about busit needs to internalize you need to check if your game is going to be successful and if if it's whatever way you go if it's not happening then you need to make another game or you reassess what you're doing uh cuz there's too many Indies that you know oh you know they think they can measure the

success at the end and then they figure out oh it's not a success and they're in trouble but that's the the Golden Goose is not making the game it's but figuring out if the game's going to make money and if the game's not going to make money you shouldn't work on it that is a brutal reality I think mobile game developers have more or less learned that lesson and thrived with it and there's no space there's not a lot of space for Indies so it's not it's not a cool future but this is what's going to happen uh and I mean you can still be an indie and successful on mobile but it's a lot harder there's a lot fewer successes off there but you got to you know this is the this is the jungle we're in now okay so I'm I'm trying to formulate a framework here for people listening because you know they might be thinking wow like this is really disorienting what am I supposed to do uh is the framework something like the okay number one the money is not like it the money is not there like it used to be when it comes to

Publishers now from what I've heard Publishers are not dead it's just that the money is not there like it used to be so a a half a million dollar deal from a publisher is going to turn into something like $100,000 right and you might and it might be a little bit more difficult to convince the publisher that you're trustworthy and that that you can make your first game profitable right if it's your second game or your third game it's going to be a lot easier to get a publishing deal for that kind of money granted you're going to get a better deal because the royalties will not be seen as big as they used to be meaning it's not going to be like a 50-50 share it'll be like 2080 or 3070 your favor so first question is is that true do you feel like Publishers are still there right now Publishers are still there and people are still making deals uh in the sub five I think s Carlos from Carlos from game Discovery said uh yeah deals from above a million are drying up for Indies or small but games that make there's not fewer

games that make around half a million net yeah yeah there is actually more there's quite the group of game studios that are making games that hit you know that hit half a million or a million Revenue you only end up with half a million gross or whatever still exist um the revenue for a publisher in you is only half a million from a million gross so that's a smaller margin but that's still half a million up for graphs how you share it and a publisher that's able to be efficient with their Mone sheet that can still survive so I I I don't think it's going well but it I I think for and you're talking about beginner developers I think beginner developers need to leave if you want a framework the framework is you build a strategy for your success that means instead of going oh I'm going to make my dream game and it's going to be a hit that doesn't exist sorry but what you can do is saying well I have nothing but I know to make games I'm going to make a great little game

and it's going to have and then it's going to do an above average success that's your first step then your second step is take that above average success make slightly bigger map have an above average success if you don't have an above average success figure out what you're doing wrong do it again then you make your fourth game and it's slightly bigger and somewhere around a certain rate could be your third your fth of your fifth you might start to make a little money that's the moment where another publisher might go hey this SC here's got this game it's got like 25,000 wish list we can scale that this is how it works in regular businesses they come on when you have a little success and say we can help you make your success 10 times as big we'll invest cuz you already have a little success if you go watch Dragons Den or whatever you call it Shark Tank that's always what it is it's people well we have a little success and this big G well if I put in a couple of million I can scale your success that's how business works so I think in the framework is to stop thinking in hits

hits are not hits happen if you have 10 you know one hits is when you can scale your success into a hit But first you need to have a success that can be scaled how do they know how do how do Indies know we we have this fantastically over platform on Steam you can release your game yourself you can release it on Twitch and you can see in the numbers am I doing or better than worse than someone else that's it's that simple so I'm by myself and and and yeah if you have no money you need to go you know you're in trouble but you can do this when you're in college when you have no kids you can live under a bridge it's it's horrific but this is how everybody starts their business you beg your aunt and uncle to help you out and then you scale and you prove that you're successful and it means that that that that you get experienced by doing it and you're iterating so it's like the the structure here is to make a a road or a wall you're building a house Brick by Brick every game is a brick your first brick is not going to deliver you the

house and I think it's that mentality that is the structure for success is say well your it's a strategy You're Building all these bricks and at some point you'll have a wall and the W the wall might support a roof and that's where you can ask someone in what is the house in this metaphor is the house a solid financially successful career I think the the house can be a pirate software part streamer part game def or Thomas brush or so the house be thas Salah that has a franchise he put all this energy in and the franchise starts to grow the the house can be your reputation where people say okay this death he just makes crazy [ __ ] original games they're small they look like but and then and you get small success and get bigger and bigger um um it is whatever is your skill or what it when you know what you're going for what you're discovering about yourself that you can do maybe you make great music you know it's a game with fantastic soundtracks uh and you skill from that whatever I know there's a thousand

ways a million ways to get there yes yes so the the the problem is is that a lot of people listening right now they're like I cannot find it they they they want to try and get some money they want to get some funding now while they're working on their demo while they're working on their game I know for me when I was working on my game uh my first game I had to figure out a way to quit my job like I just had to do it because there was no way I was going to finish that game as a hobbyist or a part-time developer and I had all these games that I had released like small little prototype games but I was ready to finally be funded right so in terms of funding in terms of funding and getting funded and going full-time is it that different from something like 2016 or 2015 like where you could still find a publisher and you you could still you could still work with a platform you could still do a Kickstarter yeah yeah

and I think of most of these things we're actually more kickstarters now yeah yeah I'm feeling that too and there so there's more kickstarters now they're all smaller amounts so so that's they're all like oh we're kickstarting for 50k or 30k but if you're by yourself 50k yeah s I'm sorry if you live in San Francisco you're [ __ ] uh but if you live in Colorado you might be fine for 100k uh you for two years uh uh it's I think the expectation people you know I want funding and then I'm going to be a startup you're not in a business of a startups of [ __ ] having coffee shops inside your business you're [ __ ] Game Dev you're like a musician it's going to be a crawl uh and you might get to a point where people pay for you to see you at a festival and [ __ ] is moderately okay uh but really if you think musicians are all rolling in it a very few are um so so I think people need to get that mind we're not in a that that

you are you are going to make if if you unless you become really smart and figure a strategy and work towards a strategy um you are going to be working for other people's money uh uh and that's that's uh cuz you're creative and you're not you know you're not suited for this business part but the if you can figure out a way to combine that and and and scale up and and and and and create your own audience that grows and that sticks with you uh then you you can you can work and get big successes and do all these things so the the way that I see that is everything that I I okay I'll speak for me everything that I've done in in terms of going full-time Indie and building a brand for myself I also partnered with other Publishers so just so everyone's aware you know I I've signed deals that are as small as $30,000 I've signed deals upwards of I can't I

can't say the exact numbers but over 250k in funding right all of these deals from what I'm hearing and from you and other game developers is those kind of numbers are still there it's it's more like these big $2 million deals that you're going to sign with Anna Perna I don't think those are there there anymore even Anapa is no longer there so I know well they started over yeah I think because game Publishers will figure out that if you want to make a game that makes 5 million which used to be an indie game could make that you know if she nowadays that has to be a business yeah that needs to be a a game with longevity or be a game as service or life or multiplayer component and you need to set it up as a business with support and then you can scale the business um that requires a lot of money uh and so I I think that's different from from the fact that what we all want is making games that fit our creativity

and skill and our you know artistic canvases for stories we want to tell etc etc that's not a business so so I think we've been I I am very cynical in that that period is gone uh but you can still make a living as an artist if you can game the system um I don't think it's it's I don't it's it's just a maturation of the market so I think we just need to let go of a lot of naivity and and there's a lot of people who had it really well let's be honest had it really well yeah I mean so did I we we we signed some deals uh me my studio I signed some deals with some platforms that I look back on those numbers and I'm like how the heck did that happen how it they were throwing out they were dude they were just drooling cash in 2020 and 2019 it's not that way anymore but I want to encourage everyone listening right now if you're if you want to I think kind of

what you're saying Thomas is if you're going to treat it like you're a writer almost like you're it's kind of like Stephen King okay he used to he would just pump out these books so quick like two a year three a year just bang bang bang bang pump out these Quick Books he'd do them fast and he would sign he would sign deals with these um book publishers and I think Carrie he signed Carrie for like 30 or 30,000 bucks back back in the 70s or 60s the reason I bring that up is is indie game developers everyone listening right now if you can make games quick if you can do it in six months to a year uh you can sign deals with Publishers and make 100K and use that money to go full-time totally possible you could go on a Kickstarter and raise 50,000 bucks to 100,000 bucks and make a small tight game with a very tight unique Loop and unique Graphics like Thomas your your art is very unique I think it's one of the primary reasons why your Universe sells it has a very beautiful unique look but the point is

is that indie game developers that are budget conscious small and they make small tight games I feel like that's the path forward for Indies right now which is small tight games that have a strong identity and if they want to sign a deal with a publisher and get 50k to go full-time that's totally possible cuz you can live on 50K for a year and finish a tight game and that game could make 300K which which is a that's a pretty good margin for the cost invested what do you think about that sort of framework um also so I think there's it mostly you're right I think you're right I think it's not the only way so that's one so the other way is to be uh build u a franchise from scratch and start you know I I like to say add to that don't throw away anything so I hate so I do like be fast and iterate and be because I do my games in two years that's my goal less than two years make big big visually stunning games uh not six seven

years CU that's just dumb um but um is to not throw away anything so if I I I sometime say kill game Jam culture so I think people need to be very careful and not confuse what you're saying with oh I need to game Jam something new every five months no uh the the the the fallacy with game Jam is that if I made something original uh and then uh it doesn't work I need to go back to the drawing board and make something else original but it's actually the the the way forward is you make something quick and then you analyze why it's working and not working and that doesn't mean you abandon what you've learned we say let's say you make a city Builder first city doesn't do great then oh now I'm going to make an FPS multiplayer and you lose all the lesson youve learned from mult from your city Builder so that's I think something people that's why I mean be strategical also in your development is that you recognize what you're doing what your strength are and that you build upon what you build so and that also increases the tools you have I am

using tools I made S 8 9 10 years ago in my latest games cuz and that's [ __ ] when what Unity does and but it's a separate sideline but the idea is you build upon the assets you don't throw away stuff so that's one part of it and the other part I think is to learn from that video story where people made a trade you don't need an entire game to gauge if your Project's going to be successful you and people sign may find this disingenuous but uh I work towards vertical slices and demos and that and then making sure people that can play that I had that evolving demo where people could fairly early play the game and you know and then you have to deal with people not understanding it's not finished or you know even Early Access I don't think Early Access I have my own reasons to dislike it but the concept of co-development co-creation is that you're flexible and people and you get validation for what you're doing uh so the validation I think you might spend two or three years on a game if you have the money and you have the confidence to

do it and the skills and experience but you need to do so based on validation bullwark my city Builder we released a trailer and it was in the future game show it did 25,000 uh uh uh wish list in like two days yep there was no demo there was no demo it was just an announce that was the announce wow where did you announce the trailer no that was the future game show which one of the I don't know and so it was it was just a 30- second clip in the future game show and it popped for people cuz she can come out of that with 5,000 wish list uh we did 25,000 the morning after was like 20,000 I went to we were at gamees score is this a real number yeah [ __ ] it's real number so but that's that's validation but it would have been great at 7 7500 in the first week or so then you know you can because I think that 10,000 in the first month is actually a good Target uh but then you're valid ated and that gave me the confidence okay I'll try to do it in two but could be in 3 years so I think

that's another part of the equation is validate early and if it's not coming cuz people that creativ we are so [ __ ] will keep you know pulling that dead horse because we put all our love and energy in it but for the money you can't change you can't turn a dirt into a hit doesn't you know it's that it's an urban legend uh you can't polish up that turd do you need to let go and move on and take from it if it's a you know if it's a city Builder or it's you learn and you you keep at it make a better City Builder it could be as simple as maybe the the the loop or the graphics or there's just not a hook there but you still you still have a system that you can build on top of right yes and that's so so people are so you know that I think this is all emotion if and I'm super emotional I I I don't you know I don't I can't live what I preach but I'm sure you know I do aspire to it but um

is that when you see your you don't want to hear the feedback you don't want to see that you're failing and people oh if I only add more narrative or oh if they could only see the third trailer or if they could only see the demo uh and you're putting you're putting you're you're ignoring the reality that if you're not succeeding you can you know that's the great thing at steam it will show you and tell you if you're succeeding so a game that starts off and oh no no we put up our trailer and we're still at a 100 wish list what am I doing wrong doesn't matter what you're doing yeah figure out what you're doing wrong but it's not working and it's not fixable so people are asking for advice how to fix it it's not fixable you need ask advice how do I should what should I do next time better what did I learn how so that's the I think and then you know once you do that steam can be predictable cuz it's algorithmic also means that if you hit something with 50,000 wish list by and large you will sell x amount you won't S sell zero and

there's a huge bandwidth based on how you do but uh there's lessons in it and I think the goal for Steam for Val is to make it more predictable uh uh and that is good for deaths it might be harder to to get better at it but that uh you can man dude that is that is so like it it's it's it's almost basic advice that most people should just know by default but I don't I don't think that they well we we did we didn't have to learn this for I think 15 years from the first from the inie death the movie all the way up to 2017 or something we or 2020 we didn't have to learn it because there wasn't enough of us to fill the demand and people were making ridiculous amounts of money and now all of that is gone there's more people to fill whatever demand so it's a competitive field and you need to start

applying so fairly basic business rules and that's like you've heard all this stuff before from anybody giving out business advice uh because it's basic business advice it's pretty basic yeah it's like you know prove prove the Prototype and before you try you scale it you know and scale up to a point that you deserve a funding deal that you've got the numbers that where a publisher and it's all going to be algorithmically every publisher of course they're going they're looking for the cut of point you don't have 50,000 wish list sorry you're not interesting that's the message people will get will get back because that's the amount we can expect you to do by yourself organically if you have a successful game and that number will change and if you can't reach it you're not ripe and that is a tough lesson for a lot of people uh but that means you okay uh uh you improve and those that improve will you know it's like a swim up River and reach uh the safe ground that's brilliant I love that well let's let's

wrap up here man my wife is my wife is calling me right now saying she needs me for for Daddy Duty um but that dude that is such good advice I think that's a perfect place to land the plane um we we my I I want my audience listening right now before we wrap up to number one click the link below to check out your games um you you're you're such a shining example of how to create a tiny like a diamond of a game it's just it's small but it's hyper it's it's tight and it's hyper valuable for the players and that that you had to prove right you had to prove that prototype and so that's that's what I want my audience to do is prove their prototypes and focus on making those prototypes um provable I think that's a really good place to valid validation and don't lie to yourself yeah that's that's that's and you'll be fine eventually man that's great thanks so much for for taking the time Thomas that

was really good man all right cheers by the way if you're like me and you always dreamt of making an indie game as a full-time job I have a free webinar below that goes into exactly how to make six figures with just a demo I was just like you for years I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game I've done this multiple times so check it out below if you do want to go full-time Indie and thanks for watching