Arguing With Chris Zukowski About "Friend Slop" And "Cheap Games" | Ep. #057

Okay, so 2024 and 2025, they were brutal years for the game industry and that includes Indies like you and like me. From layoffs to publishers pulling funding from projects and by the way, my own indie project had budget cuts. Honestly, it felt like indie dev it might be a thing of the past. But my buddy Chris Zukowski, and he's the best indie game marketing guru or expert that I can think of, he actually thinks we're in the middle of a golden age of indie games
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and he's got the data to back it up. I'll be honest, you're either going to hate this conversation or you're going to love this conversation. If you're old school like me and you like, I don't know, linear games, story games, highly polished games, this conversation might not be for you. I don't know. Let me know in the comments. This was a fascinating conversation nonetheless and it's not without its points of contention and flat-out disagreement. But this is why I love having conversations with [music] Chris. He's raw, he's real and he bases his opinions on data. In this chat, we'll talk about why you should be optimistic about indie

game development, what genres are blowing up today, why these games are working specifically in 2025 and 2026, whether you should make games in dead genres and what easy-to-make games are more profitable in 2025 and 2026. And we also talk about streaming and how it controls genres that are popular and why shooting for the moon as a game dev might actually be a huge mistake for Indies.
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And we end this conversation with kind of a debate, a little bit of an argument about why suffering as an indie game developer is perhaps not such a noble thing. Okay, so I was reading the optimistic view that indie games are in a golden age right now and you posted this November 4th. And it's so funny because the title implies that I should feel optimistic, but I'm going to be honest with you, I felt really sad reading this article. And the reason Can you guess the reason why I might I in particular me in particular might feel sad?

Uh let's hear it. I don't want to I don't want to make any presumptions. The last 4 years I have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on this big, you know, almost a double-A style indie game. Story driven, immersive sim, moody. It's it's um it's kind of the opposite of the kind of games you talk about in this article. So it was sad for me and it's a selfish it's a selfish sad because it's like obviously, I'm very happy for people for game developers right now because they can make these small games and kind of strike it rich. But it did make me sad in the sense that I don't know, like the four 4 years ago my my presumptions about the industry didn't hold up 4 years later. You know, things are different now in the sense that Well, go ahead. Why don't you tell me what's what what what kind of games are are what is the golden age right now? So here's the here's the basics of what the golden age is. There's a lot of doom and gloom in

the industry and I hear you. And then like a lot of people have gotten laid off and studios got too big because funding was too much money was thrown at people who weren't ready for that much money. And so there's been a contraction in the industry and games just got too big. They got too bloated indie games in my in my opinion. And uh the the the green shoots that I'm seeing and I I kind of I've been seeing it, but it didn't really coalesce until I started looking at what came from Next Fest. But basically, what's happened is small games that small teams can make very quickly. And what I call very quickly is kind of in the 4 months to 6 months time frame. Right. So there's lower risk, can go very viral on Steam and do very well on Steam and make people lots of money. Now, we're probably going to talk about friend slop. The term sounds terrible, but I actually think it's a it's a positive thing. Friend slop is just one thing, but it is a rare time when you can do

this. Like the last time this happened was Vampire Survivors, those Vampire Survivor likes. Mhm. Where hey, small teams could throw some assets together, make a good meta game and it was so fun. And that kind of I see it kind of crested and it's now a mature genre. Yeah.
But yes, there's friend slop, but simultaneously, I see about four or five or six other genres simultaneously doing the Vampire Survivor thing. It's not just friend slop. There's idle games, there's horror games, there's horror casino games, there's horror friend slop. There there's a couple other sub sub genres that we don't even have names for. There's all these little genres where you don't have to be a big name like Thomas. I'm sorry, Thomas.
[laughter]
You don't have to have a huge audience. You do have to be a creative game designer, but the risk is a lot lower and I think that's the biggest problem. The reason I I'm so I was pessimistic before is it was just like these big bloated games that took 4 years to make that were I

don't know, kind of doing okay, but then they would crash. In other words, like they wouldn't show up. And then so it took 4 years. It was like back in the old days when you had a film camera, you'd have to take a picture and then wait, send your your film in and wait a long time to see if it developed okay and went back and we're like, oh, that didn't turn out so well. That's what it used to be. But now you can do it in 6 months and 4 months. And what I saw were a lot of developers and I started digging into this. I found a lot of developers who were like, man, I needed a break from my 4-year project. Let's just time out on this 4-year project. I'll make a game in 6 months. We'll see how it does. Guess what? Those those 4-month quick games did so much better than the possible possibility of that 4-year game. A lot of devs didn't even go back to their 4-year game. They're like, well, we're rich now. We don't need to go back to that 4-year game. So that's kind of the the the sphere that I see this in and I see devs that are so happy now. That's the main thing when it comes down to it is creative art that's made by people who are enjoying their time. I'm not a

suffer for your art person. I I think that's I hate that. I like, hey, I'm having a good time. Let's make fun stuff. We're making video games. We're making toys for children and some adults. But let's have fun. [laughter] And so I see the golden age as a return to let's have freaking fun, guys. We are making video games, all right? So that's my optimistic take is
Well, fast games that are fun to make, people are making money off of them and it's it's just it's fun if you are willing for the challenge. Okay, I've got you. So and it all makes sense and this this isn't actually this isn't a surprise to me. Um last year around the same time and it didn't take a genius to sort of see that small games were becoming a thing. But last year in like December, I think it was, I did a video about how for my next game and also for game developers in general, um small games are kind of the way to do it. And the reason I brought that up in this previous video I did last year was

because yes, the trends and just seeing small games thrive, but also I'm one of those people that spends 4 years on a project and the grind is real, the burnout is real. Every year I'm looking older and older and older, like more more so than like I'm used to. I'm just like I'm I'm getting gray hairs, I'm getting exhausted and and I'm at the tail end right now of of Twisted Towers development and there are days I'll go without taking a shower, you know? There there will there will be conflict like with with me and my wife cuz my wife is like, please get this done. Get this game done. It's been 4 years, Thomas. And I'll say, okay, I'm going to get it done by January. And then I'll go to her like, you know, 2 3 weeks later and say, hey, by the way, I think we're going to need another 4 months, another 5 months. Cuz she's tired of exactly what you just said, which is this sort of suffering as an artist. She's tired of it because it takes a huge toll on me, right? And I'm

a dad and I got kids [clears throat] and I'm a husband and I'm a I'm a friend and all this stuff, it takes a toll. However, however, I love big story games. I like immersive horror games. And so it's hard for me, back to what I said originally when we started this podcast, it's hard for me to see this. It's a wonderful article. You did such a good job writing it. It's hard for me to be optimistic because for selfish reasons, I don't like these kinds of games. Do you know what I mean? Do you like these games? I do. I think my Here's my thought is I the if we go back, I I I I've made mobile games. I made mobile games a while ago. I made Xbox Live games. Um all through I like I've We used to download indie games before they were called indie games on our PC. We would just go to AOL and we'd search free games and there'd be free games. And the industry is the most fun, most

vibrant when it's indie. Like back in the day, indie meant, hey, I'm just throwing this stuff together. I don't care. The thing that's important is is this fun? Like the game had like four colors, but it was freaking fun. And you could just make these quick games that were personal. And I think when they're they're reworked and repolished and polished, you lose the humanity of the work. That's just my personal thing. And so I am so excited. So I see these periods several times like the early mobile. Like before it before everybody had a mobile phone, you could make a quick game, throw it on the app store and it would go viral and these were quick fun games and the you could feel the creator. Now, they were a little sloppy. You could see the seams, but I like the handmade look. I'm you know, DIY aesthetic. I I the lighter touch of a designer or a creator. I don't like

what they call in in fine art they call it a licked surface where it just looks licked. Like everything is so smooth. I don't like that look.
[laughter]
I got you. What I love here's what I love is people that are having fun both creators and developers and they don't have to have an existential crisis. They can have a shower. Maybe that's why your wife is unhappy. You're not
[laughter]
showering enough. I don't know. But I love these games cuz I think they're so fun and developers don't have to have an existential crisis to release a game and you can feel [clears throat] that fun in the game. And so that's why I'm like I love it. I These are fun games. These are fun games. Yeah. Why do you think this is somehow a trend now? I don't I don't quite understand. Actually, let's back up cuz I need a definition from you. You said earlier um these vampire survivor type games. We're saying small games, right? What what what is this genre? Like can you

describe it? Is it Is it gambling games? Is it friend slop games? Like what what is this genre you're talking about that [snorts] is exploding in popularity. Okay. I For the article, I called them grape conjunction games because and it's not a genre it's not one genre it's five six genres. And that's what's so amazing. It is not one genre and there's not a universal thing between all of them, okay? It's complex. And this is why I consider this like we we're in the middle of a golden age cuz all these genres are kind of popping off at the same time. I typically see this one genre. Like I used to see just vampire survivors did this. And again, now we're seeing five or six genres doing this simultaneously, okay? So I'll go through all the genres that I consider um these golden age genres that we're seeing. Okay, so the first one is friend slop. I think we're very familiar with it or you've heard whispers. I know a lot of devs are like oh we're making a friend slop game, too. Friend slop basically is co-op not multiplayer not

like servers and lobbies and Call of Duty where you have to dial in and you need a huge player base. They're just smaller games where you just need like four to five friends and they just join in and you're usually co-op or slightly competitive. They're not party games. A lot of people mistake this is like oh yeah like Mario Party. It's not Mario Party. They're usually cooperative and you usually have a single goal that you're all trying to achieve together. Like the the most popular one right now is Peak where it's like we're all trying to get to the top of a peak. And so you have all these things going on and they're a little jankier. Like you'll see stuff clipping through like textures clipping and arms are kind of wiggling around. That's one. And so [clears throat] those are there's several of the genre several games within that genre specifically friend slop. There's another one called idle games and idle games are like cookie clicker and that sort of thing. But that genre is so like effervescent right now. There's so many entries into it. So that's one where it's like people are

making clickers city builders clicker civilization clicker [laughter] black holes. There's all kinds of these incremental games. Is that also click holding by by Zavier Nelson Jr? Is that a similar game? Kind of. I I I still think there's possibility in that space of what click holding was kind of because I don't think there was enough clicking in the game ironically. But and this kind of goes to the next one which is horror. Horror genre is very good because I've seen a lot of genres they just take horror and they apply it to these other genres. Like the people who invented friend slop really are like lethal company Repo Phasmophobia. That I think that's how you say it. Where it was you you and your friends are in a haunted house together and you're trying to beat the baddie to get out of the haunted house. And so it was a co-op thing and I think a lot of people saw those co-op horror games and they're like why does it have to be horror? Let's do

let's make it friendly like a peak game or you know something like that. And so we've got those. And so what you'll see is also a lot of horror put on top of it. And so I think click holding started. I don't see too many horror incremental games but I totally could see if you're creative maybe you could repurpose some assets from twisted tower that you throw out make a
[laughter]
horror incremental free idea Thomas. Just put me in the credits that's all I care about. I don't want any money from that. The so there's a lot of options there. Another genre that is is kind of I consider in this is casino games where it sounds weird but typically grim dark casino games and there was a couple that just came out like one's called clover pit where you're like working on these slot machines and you're in this dungeon type of thing. There's another one called I think it's like slots and dice no it's dice and swords. I I'll don't go with me on we'll link it down below. But it's also a casino slot machine grim dark kind of fantasy RPG type of thing where it's a

lot more random and it's dice and all that kind of stuff slot machine type of thing to also do well. So you've got this kind of slot machine thing. Pure horror where it's just a one person thing going through it. You've got another one which are shop simulators. You know what there was supermarket simulator and that took off and then people just started like slopping that thing. You know you could get some store assets you do some stuff there. And um you make a store game. Well people are now doing horror shop simulators. There were two that popped off at Steam Next Fest. And there's just so much vibrance of so many genres that fans are like let's go. I want to try this. And so it's not just one [snorts] genre. And some of them are are quite counter that it's not the same audience. Like the friend slop is different than the casino horror or different from the incremental. But they're all I call the great conjunction genres because all these genres all of a sudden are coming together and they're they're made in a way that they can be made in like four to six months. So they're not

necessarily co-op or multiplayer or single player. It doesn't matter. Some are some aren't. Okay. Idle games are are solo. Solo games only idle. Horror games some horror games are solo and they do well. Some horror games are multiplayer and they do well. So it it's lots of genres. It's that's why I say it's a golden age. You have lots of choices of finding these genres that are doing well. So games like I'm looking at slots and daggers right now. Slots and daggers that's it. Yeah yeah yeah. That's from Freedom Planet. Freedom Planet was on the podcast I think it was six months ago and I didn't even know he was working on this when he was on the podcast. He didn't he didn't even shout it out which I thought in a weird way is admirable. Maybe he wasn't even started on it. It's [laughter] so fast. Yeah. That's seriously maybe he made it like in three months. I don't know. But yeah [snorts] slots and daggers is just I think it's just a solo game. Very positive. Uh 1,500 reviews

and that is in like a week. A week? That's unbelievable. I'm trying to figure out Chris. I'm trying to figure out like what is this what what is the great conjunction? It the best way I can describe it is like um Are these games like snacks? Do you do you know what I mean? Like they're they're small and they're sugary and they're or they're they're carby and they're tasty and they're flavorful. And they're nourishing.
[laughter]
Why why do you always make it so negative? WHAT'S WHAT WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO WITH THIS golden period is get into like lighten up. My God it's the golden age here Thomas. Let's lighten up. I'm trying. nourishing to hang out with friends to to be together. And no more of this solo by yourself locked playing these games that have been over polished. No we're fun effervescent games that you get to play with your friends. What's What's so bad about hanging with friends Thomas? Why do you hate hanging out with friends? No more OF THIS SOLO BY YOURSELF LOCKED playing

these games that have been over polished. Well, here's the thing is it's not necessarily multiplayer though is it? Right? So there that's why they're like Doritos. It's like I'm not saying maybe I am. Maybe I am. Maybe I am saying it's junk food. I don't know.
it's junk food. I might I might say it's junk food. And I'm not saying that's wrong cuz I just I just ate peanut butter cups like five minutes ago or 15 minutes ago. So
[clears throat]
I'm proud of you Thomas. So I just think that uh Like can we just call them snacks? Is that okay? Or like Is it Is it
think so because some of these idle games you look at the median play times and I know it's different because they're idle games. But some of these idle games have very long median play times. They're longer than other things other typical genres. Um I actually consider short linear games. I don't know. Look at twisted tower or something.

Those your median like I don't know how long your game's going to be what couple hours, right?
Five five or six. I The median play time of an idle game is like 10 hours. Like median. So these games
how how long does it take you? How long does it How long do you spend eating a steak versus eating a bag of chips in front of a TV? I don't I don't know.
[laughter]
I I mean here's the The reason I say that I'm trying to I'm trying to solidify solidify the metaphor because snacks are things that you just sit and you eat for an hour. You just have your hand in the bag and you just sort of munch. Whereas a a nice steak you're going to eat that in maybe 20 minutes 10 to 20 minutes, okay? I'm trying to solidify the metaphor to figure out what what what is what are the ingredients of these games? And also what is the goal of the game? Is the goal to sit and just munch for hours? Cuz that that might that might explain what you're saying. Which is these are games that you sit

and you just play for much longer than like a normal I don't know, double A or triple A story game. So you're just going to munch munch munch munch munch on this thing. Kind of are they addicting? Are these games addicting? No, they're I mean is friendship addicting? I don't know. Like [laughter] you consider friendship addicting? I mean here's the thing is like now some of these games will be a little simpler. A lot of the friend slop games and what they say is what this does is this this is why
[laughter]
I I don't want I want to make sure that this is positive here. People are always so negative. The thing that I've heard about friend slop is they keep the moment-to-moment interaction of the game play loop much simpler because they're facilitating fun. I think that that's great. I really do. Good. All right.
I I I'm converting to your new religion. The problem is though is I keep coming back to I'm trying to find what is the core of this because it's not all social. It's the only the only rhythm I can find in all of these games is that they were

made quickly. Is that the the the the main ingredient? They're they're quick games that are on the cheaper side? Yep, they're typically
five bucks. I haven't done the analysis yet. I haven't done the analysis. Because I'm when I was reading your article I was like trying to figure out what you said the great great conjunction. And and I'm like but what are is it it can't just be any game. It's cuz then that wouldn't make any sense. It but you've you've friend slop, idle, horror meta genre, simulation, rage gamers, auto battlers, and you said Vampire Survivors gen two. I'm trying to figure out Chris what are all of what what do these have in common other than they're just quick and dirty? I don't know. And here's here's my thought is they're kind of new genres a little bit. So for instance, I mean I mentioned this in the article. Vampire Survivors like I don't think you can do that as well. For like okay so if Vampire Survivors came out in 2021 I believe

and for the first year year and a half you could the genre was so exciting. EVERYBODY WAS LIKE OH VAMPIRE SURVIVORS. YOU COULD MAKE one very quickly. Like you could throw together some kind of cheap assets. It was fun. It didn't have to be so tight like the game play and you could throw it up but because everybody was so excited about the genre they didn't care. But what I've seen and I mentioned this in the article is nowadays which is almost four years later the games that are popping off in the Vampire Survivors likes are very polished. Like you can't do a quick three-month Vampire Survivors like anymore. You have to make it very deep or you have to take IP that is very popular. Like I just saw Warhammer announce they're making a Vampire Survivors like.
[laughter]
You have to have the Warhammer franchise, Hem Tam, uh there was one called a Deep Rock Galactic Survivor. Uh they had a big IP there but the Deep Rock IP. So that genre has now matured and you can't break in as easily. But what's happened

is there's just a flourishing of all these genres now the friend slop, the idle games where the fan base is like I want this now. I don't care what it looks like. I don't care. I want more of this. They're just like they're they're like beating the doors down like give me more uh idle games.
And so there's a lack of supply of idle games and so you can create small indies who don't have a lot of money or experience can create a smaller experience. And I imagine who knows. We don't know how long this is going to last. Four or five years from now the only idle games that will survive are the ones that are you know, year-long projects, high-end graphics, triple A quality everything. And it's more a maturity of genres. And I think the thing that connects these and what the article is about is that we are in a crazy period right now when there's five or six genres that are brand new and there's a very big audience that is like I don't care. Just give it to me. Okay.
sense? I think that makes sense. I think

I've got you. And here let me let me do one more. Let me just to kind of show you the flip side. Like Metroidvanias are and that's one of my favorite genres by the way is a mature genre. And so the only the only Metroidvania that can break through is if you're a Silk Song or you're an Ori and the Blind Forest where the quality and depth is so deep. If you don't have that quality and depth you're dead on arrival. Like I see a lot of indies make Metroidvanias but their quality and their depth is not up to Silk Song quality so everybody goes well you're not Silk Song. I don't care. I'm only playing Silk Song. And so that's where I think we are. It's a maturity of genre. It's nothing like inherent about this. Okay. In terms of the great conjunction to de- to define it it's something like pillaging a new genre as fast as you can. Why does it have to be [laughter] so negative? Why then isn't it like exploring a new genre or um

uh embracing a new genre? Why is it pill- why why why do you have to bring pillaging in? Because it's it's basically the idea would be find find the it's a gold rush. It's a gold rush. And so you're going to go in there and you are going to I'm not saying pillaging is wrong. In in in war like in war yeah I mean we probably shouldn't go and pillage people's villages.
Don't to the to the viewers don't pillage. Viewers [laughter] do not pillage. Do not pillage but this is something like a gold rush of saying okay we have these for some reason people it's something like new genres appear and indies indies are the ones who are maybe they're even they're they're the ones creating these genres, right? And so indies are the ones who go in and as quickly as they can they're the first to the gold rush and they release something as fast as possible. That so that's that's the trait I'm identifying number one. I don't I don't know if that's correct but that's kind of what I'm hearing. And

then number two, these games the priority is get them out quickly at a low price and also a low cost to the developer but also low price to the consumer and also fun is the priority. Kind of. And let me put let me You put gold rush you're always thinking about money Thomas. Let's think about the
[laughter]
Um I am an I I I actually have an art history minor. I studied art history and there were periods where a new genre emerged like uh the impressionists or something and this is where this new genre hit and there were a number of factors and I could list the factors that led to the impressionist era but you would have these artists and they were trying to define what is the genre? Why does this move Where is the limits of this movement? And you had like Courbet who said let's look at the city. The city and the flaneurs are where this is at. And then you had Manet and Monet

and they went out and they were like no it is the gardens. And then you had uh you know like Mary Cassatt and she was like no it's about the uh the women in the in in the home. That is where the impressionism needs to live. And so they were all exploring. And so the art that I see if we want to take this not crass gold rush mentality if we want to take an art mentality to this. We are in the dawn of a new genre. And you all watching get to define what are the edges of this genre. And so you get to push against this genre cuz it's it's the frontier. We don't know where this is going. We don't know where friend slop stops. We don't know where horror stops and you get to define it if you jump in now. Whereas a Metroidvania is pretty defined right now. The the genre is mature. We know what they are where they are. We are defining a genre right now several times over. And that is the optimistic non-crass gold rush mentality that we could have. So Thomas let's join in and define a new art form.

I will think about it. Um [laughter] So what I've written down here is that you you mentioned the word undefined. A genre or a game a type of game that it has undefined boundaries that is clearly popular. That's kind of what you're talking about here. It's it's a it's a it's a new genre that popped up that everyone's obsessed with and you you you rush in and you don't worry about polishing it. You just make it and get it out there, right? Exactly. Whereas I I found it funny you you you almost said divine instead of undefined. And I find that funny because Hollow Knight has Metroidvanias are they're so defined that they're divine. It's like it's almost impossible to make a Silk Song. You know and so it's almost like what's what's even the point? Now I have I want I want to give sort of a counter argument here. I've heard so for example I'm making a BioShock light type of game. I've heard people say cuz I've I've always said well why am I doing this to myself? I can't I can't make BioShock again.

What am I doing? I'm it's never going to live up to that game so why am I even doing this on a on a pencil thin budget? And I've heard people say well something like that hasn't come out in a while and so any people are just hungry for that kind of game. So do you think there is a pendulum where let's say it's been 20 years since a game like Silk Song has been released. 20 years down the road somebody releases something that's kind of like Silk Song. It's not as good but they release it anyway. Is there a gold rush there for old genres that are like dead? Yeah I there is and it's a it's a number of of factors there. So here's my thought is I almost think you could make a It's not going to be a gold rush. It's going to be it's riskier. Mhm. Everything's riskier by the way, folks. Let's just say like there's no sure bet. And the way I I look at these things when we say these genres and stuff, we're talking about calculated risk. Is this a coin flip where it's 50/50 or is it a roulette wheel where it's

what, 36 or 37 whether you got the double zero or the single zero style roulette wheel? Um some bets, like if you want to go the 30-year this genre is Yeah.
needs to be revived, that's the roulette wheel. Or it's really the lottery ticket where it's one in one million chance. Yeah. And Since you're all game designers, you know probability, right? Um it's And these are all things. So, what I see is like, okay, right now these grand conjunction genres that we've defined here are kind of like not It's not a coin flip. It's not 50/50. Mhm. It's just that your chances are much greater with these genres to forge a path forward and have them
[snorts and clears throat]
bear fruit. Um but what to your point about old genres, I almost think people could um do a decent career if you just went to the old EA genres and picked off an old EA game that EA has forgotten cuz those are really neat genres and build a game like that. I know a guy that's making a game it's it's based off the

Desert Strike series. I can't remember, I think it's Hot Pursuit is the game it's called. He's He's remaking uh the Desert Strike series and he's doing well with it. Um but how many Desert Strikes can the market support? I don't know. So, I do think there's a rebirth. Yeah. But again, that's that's risky. There's another game Somebody's remaking The Sims because EA has neglected The Sims and they're called um uh Paralives. Paralives are doing fantastic.
The game is called Paralives. All those genres they have I know you. the developers have really had to work hard to get there. Like I know the Hot Pursuit guy has been doing it for like three or four years, too. So, again, those are riskier. You're you're putting a bet on a roulette wheel which has a one in 36 chance of of landing on your number. So, it's riskier, but I do think that that's a thing. And that's what the point of this article is. Yes, that is totally valid to try and do that. And there are other genres like I was saying like other genres like um strategies, uh

these open world survival craft, those are still GREAT GENRES. I'M NOT I'm not saying that those aren't there. It's just right now, and this is why it's called the grand conjunction, is there's an opportunity where the games that are easier to make are also the games that people are going crazy for. And so, that conjunction of those two factors means that's like, folks, this might be a time to stretch your muscles, air open up the windows, let the house air out, and try this. And because it's stultifying stultifying to to work on these games for four years. Take a break. Thomas, take a shower, four months, use some of that thrown away Twisted Tower Friends Slop horror game.
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like overall, what you're saying is for some reason for some reason the games that are easiest to make are the most profitable right now. Right now. Right now. Why? Okay, I've talked to a couple

developers. I've been talking to some developers of these games and I was like, hey, you know, I for this piece, I interviewed dozens of developers who have made these games and are are doing this stuff. And I was talking to one guy and he was like, I think it's Roblox. So, Thomas, do you play Roblox with the kids and that kind of stuff?
No, we play Minecraft, but we'll probably play Roblox here in a bit. I play I play Minecraft, too. Uh I play it's good I think every designer, even if you don't have kids, don't be creepy about this, but should try out Roblox. [laughter] Um it is And And this is the theory that this other designer who did a very made a very popular game, he said Roblox is Friends Slop. It is amazing like the games are nuts and they're really interesting. Very interesting game ideas are being spawned in Roblox. And [clears throat] this guy's theory is either the audience is growing out of Roblox. So, I don't know what I don't know the demographics, but once you get

old enough, you kind of age out of Roblox. And he thinks that maybe there's a new generation arriving on Steam cuz Steam is constantly growing who grew up on Roblox and that's what they know. They played with their friends when they were like eight years old Roblox and they're aging out. They're now in high school, maybe college, and they're still looking for that. They don't want to hang out with a bunch of little kids on Roblox and so they're graduating, but they bring what they learned, which is a great way to hang out with your friends is digitally playing these little silly games. And now they're like they want something more mature. And so, we are supporting this next generation who's like, I want a mature way to hang out with friends. I don't want to hang out with eight-year-olds, but I still want to hang out with my friends digitally. And so, we're seeing a huge population influx of that.
Yeah. That is one theory that this one developer told me. And I I I think that's pretty valid. I don't know if that's the whole reason, but that's one theory. I think it's valid, dude. I think it's valid. I I guess you could call them Gen Z games. I don't know if that's true, but that sure seems like what's happening. And I know you don't like my crass

words for this, but I'm going to use the word TikTok as well. TikTok games. They're They're just instantly gratifying. They're social. Most of them are social. And the goal is for fun and laughs and or or some kind of quick emotional reaction. A salty, spicy, sugary reaction. And so, in my mind, it sure seems like that's what this is. TikTok games.
Like I mean, I don't know about your friends, but friendship is deeper. It's It's the fine steak. Friendship is the fine steak that you age over time, Thomas. It's not a sugary snack. It's not that Friendships go for years. And so, like if you look at the playtimes for one of the very first horror Friends Slops, which is Phasmophobia, what I did was in the research, I pulled the top 23 Friends Slop games and I looked at their concurrent user count. And Phasmophobia and Lethal Company have

very long times. In other words, like the the concurrent player count is very steady over time. And what I don't have deep I can't I can't tell you definitively, but I think a lot of people are playing that all the time. Like people are like, hey, every Thursday, let's go play Phasmophobia or let's play Lethal Company. And it's it's a long-term thing that a lot of people are doing. And so, I don't think this is TikTok because I know it seems from the outside. Anytime something's new, people are like, it's like TikTok. Yeah. I think that's a very shallow way of looking at something. Not to not to put it on you, but just because something's new, people are like, what's new? TikTok's new. What's something else that's new? Friends Slop games. Oh, Friends Slop is TikTok. No, um because I think that TikTok is very short form. It's not social. It's actually isolating. I think a lot of the isolation that we see in the Gen Z or whatever we call them, Gen Alpha, I don't remember. TikTok's isolating. It pulls you away from friends. Whereas games are bringing friends together and playing them together. So, I that it's

the anti-TikTok cuz TikTok's alienating. It's people just by themselves scrolling their phones or they're like they don't want to go out because they're just scrolling TikTok. Whereas games are these social games are bringing people together. So. Well, it's it's interesting. It's um games games encompass so many different art forms, but it also stretches outside of art forms. Games are sports. Games are activities. Games are ways to just hang out, you know? Uh but also often times games are like movies. Games are stories. Games are like they're like everything. And it's hard it's hard for me. Do you want to know why this is hard for me? Obviously, it's because I I've spent so much time on a big project. But it's also hard for me because admittedly I don't really like to hang out with people.
[laughter]
Maybe you need some Friends Slop. I know. I I guess I need to play Friends Slop.
Slop in your life, man. It The The idea of of And that's what

This is all really scary to me, to be completely honest with you, because I'm sitting here going, all this stuff is really popular right now and I I'm not engaged by it. And so, I'm like, wow. Am I about to get left behind? You know? And so, that brings me to my next question, which is what do developers like me do where story and atmosphere and polish and the art form, that's paramount to me. That's what I love the most. There's plenty of developers who are just sinking years of their lives into a project. You know, David Wehle is making um We Have a Shadow. What do developers like us do? And do we need to pivot? Well, one thing is I think David Wehle is very smart and he's doing the right game. Yeah.
Like I actually And here's the thing, Yeah.
talking about these games, people are like, Chris, you told us horror games were good. I'm still thinking they're good.
[laughter]
Yeah. All these these other genres, what I call crafty buildy strategy simulationy games, those are still

popular. I'm not saying those aren't popular anymore. Anytime I say, hey, we're in a golden age, you're like, well, you told us this last week. It's still true. That is still true. And I think David Wehle is a great example. That is That is the right type of game to make. That is a good genre. Yeah. And what I think David Wehle is a perfect example of what he's doing. So, if you've played We Have a Shadow, I think the demo is still live. I think that's a perfect One of the genres that are are really good right now, still good. Don't don't think it's bad anymore. Are these simulation games where you're kind of a blue-collar job, like cleaning something or power washing something or something like that. What David Wehle did
that that's a popular genre, but they only it's very shallow. And so, David Wele said, I'll take that genre that's very popular and I'll overlay a story, thematics, atmosphere. You see where I'm going with this Thomas? Mhm. And he said, I'm going to add on to that. And everybody was like, that is awesome. And so what I'd invite you to do, and this is where it's like I know you called it a gold rush and you're

concerned so much with money. I'm concerned with the art here, Thomas. And so when I see a new art form emerging like the Renaissance or the Impressionists or we could talk about the Dadaists if you'd like. When a new genre or art form is emerging, you are all free, everybody watching this, to redefine that genre. And I'd invite you, Thomas, what if you made a friend slot game that had that polish or told a story? Because like okay, I'd invite you to play Peak. There's this um this little toy called Bing Bong and it's in the thing and if you carry Bing Bong around and then you start noticing everywhere when you play this game, Bing Bong it's like Bing Bong Airlines and there's Bing Bong this and you start seeing this guy everywhere and people kind of craft this narrative of like what is Bing Bong? Why is it Bing Bong? And so I'd invite you, you can still use that environmental storytelling to tell a story. Like yeah, you're hanging out with friends but then friends are like,

wait, why is that written in blood on the wall that says go away, don't trust her. And then they start chatting about that and you build the story into the friend slot and this all of a sudden is like, oh my gosh, Thomas has redefined the genre. He has brought story, depth, polish to friend slot. This guy has redefined the genre. Mhm. And so that's what I I would say is like there is opportunity and what I'm saying with when these new genres are emerging, it is up to you all to define it. You might find that that's the place to go with this genre. And so I don't think you should um say the kids are all you know, it's like okay, well what is it? Can we push this direction? Let's see what happens if we take it this direction. And that's what I'd invite you to try. You know, I wonder if um the inexpensive nature of making these games, I wonder if that's going to go away pretty quick. Because I kind of like kind of like what you said earlier just now is that

once a genre sort of gets a foothold and everybody's making it, the ones that stand out are the polished ones. Kind of. Well, here's what I think it is. This is my theory just watching the Vampire Survivors things cuz I really like the Vampire Survivors genre and I was following it. It is folks, if you're interested in art like I am, I have an art history degree, it's fun to watch a medium evolve. Just like I loved watching like the how abstract expressionism evolved. Um I love to watch live how a genre evolves. And what I think it is is right now we're in the frothy period when people are trying everything. Like in Vampire Survivor likes, people were trying things like how the big question was, do you push the button to fire? That was like a major genre defining thing. There was a series of games that branched that it's like watching the evolution live. There's a whole series of games that branched where you could push buttons

and you did things. You either rolled or you shot and then there were other Vampire Survivors that no, Vampire Survivors is about not pushing buttons. You just walk. All you do is use one button and you walk around. And so the genre is kind of split that way and we could see who won. And so what I think is at this period when everybody's just throwing stuff at the wall, they don't they're just rapidly putting games out. We're trying to define where the genre is. And I don't say we cuz I'm not making the games, they are. Oh, okay, this is what friend slot is. It's it's this, this and this. And then the somebody comes in and they say, okay, that is what it is and they make a very polished version of what that is. They said, I think this works and we'll go there. And this is very similar to like how the iPod evolved. If you know anything about how iPod came about, everybody's making MP3 players. They all sucked but they were trying. It wasn't until Apple came in cuz Apple can polish everything. Apple doesn't actually innovate that much. They just they just make stuff very well. And so they just watched where MP3 players were going and they're

like, let's put our stamp on it and really make it. So that's one option is once somebody comes in and says, this is where the genre is, boom, I'm making the high polished version. That's a way that it could go. Does any of these genres, let's again, I'll list them out. Friend slot, idle incremental games, horror, simulation, rage games, auto battlers, battlers and Vampire Survivors. Do you know what I see as the common thread with all of these is they're really good for streaming. And it makes me wonder if streaming is controlling all of this. That streamers really have the key to virality. And it's the streamer's personality that's really carrying all of this. As opposed to the past, in the past when streamers weren't really a thing, it was the quality of the game and how it looked and how it looked in its box on the on the on the shelf at Walmart. I remember walking through Walmart at like

10 10 9 years old and I saw Alice Madness Returns and I was just like enamored. I just had to buy that game, right? I didn't cuz I don't think my parents would have let me but point being, there's a different way in which games are marketed to developers or to to to to gamers these days and and right now it's is Twitch, right? And people just streaming and laughing and having a blast with these games that don't necessarily have that beautiful front cover but instead make people have uh have really good conversations and and laugh with each other and hang out. I there again, one thing I I the internet is really bad about, people on the internet, is holding multiple ideas in your head at the same time. Yeah. Okay, let's change it. Yes, the golden age is still there. But there are still these deep complex games that and I I market a lot of different types of games. There are games that still do well with a screenshot and a trailer

and they do very well on TikTok ironically. And again, not the TikTokization. I just mean that there are games that you can market and that do very well. Yes. When somebody sees the trailer and somebody's like, that's the most beautiful game I've ever seen. And it's just through through trailers, through TikTok, through screenshots, there are games that can do very well. Um and they don't get much streamer coverage. Some of the games I'm thinking of I want to say it's called like Exo something. It's that it was a game where you were a little ball rolling over the mountains and then you turn into a disc that could fly and then it's Exo something. I forget what it's called. That's a beautiful game. Like it is so beautiful, so polished. It still does well. Like I would say that's a good game. Like if you can do that and pull that off, Yeah. do it. And that was sold on its visuals. Like you were saying like the equivalent of going to seeing a box cover and and seeing that stuff. Yeah, it's called Exo One, is that what you're talking about?
Exo One, that's it. You know what's

interesting about this is like just to riff off of that and then I'll let you continue. It's it did well. I I mean probably made over a million bucks. Let's see how much is this. So $17. So I think it made well over a million. It has 3,000 very positive reviews. I think that seems like well over a million, wouldn't you say? Uh in revenue. But that said, you look at this game versus like what do you call it again? The The Great Conjunction games. Those games when you look at the reviews, it's like 20,000, 100,000 reviews, you know? So they just explode. They have a they have a the virality is on a different planet. It is totally different than a game like Exo One. But here's the thing, folks. This is like it's not all about the money, Thomas. Here's the thing. You don't have to be the number one game. This is another thing that I hate about the internet. If it's not the number one game, it failed. No, like if you my my measure for success is can you keep making games sustainably? You don't have to like

mortgage your house or anything. Can you like have a nice middle income, raise a couple kids on it? Not millionaires. And I think if you are an artist and you can do very very good art like that, there's a living there just purely off of the visuals if it's decent enough game cuz you know, like like an Exo One or something like that. That is still viable. That again, we have to hold multiple things in our heads, folks. Yep. That is fully viable and also these friend slot, Great Conjunction games are also viable. There's and this is part of the reason I'm saying this is a golden age, folks. There are multiple paths forward. It's just you have to know who you are and go for it. And for those again, let me go back to it. If you have never made a game, you're thinking about it, look at the Great Conjunction games. It might not be your dream game but it's a first step into this place. Yeah.
And then as [clears throat] you mature, you can gravitate towards these more visually appealing games that are sold

on a trailer, a screenshot, going viral on social media and Reddit. Those type of games do well that way. So both are possible, Thomas. Well, I will say the path to the path to your dream game ends in hell. Uh
[laughter]
Thomas, you're so negative. I do do you realize I've been working 14 to 16 hour days? I'm exhausted and I I'm I'm 4 years into a this massive project. But I'm trying to give you some answers. I APPRECIATE IT. FRIEND SLOT GAME, THOMAS. It's better. I'm I'm even arguing with you because I'm the one who said all this last year. I cuz I was in the the thick of it last year, too, and I was like I I wasn't saying necessarily these kind of games. I was just saying keep it small. And I was talking to myself because I'm just exhausted. That said, yeah, like the the dream game I actually saw It's It's funny people are arguing about this. I don't I don't know if you saw this, but on Twitter people are arguing about how somebody posted and said make small games and

everyone got mad because it's like well, I've been working on my RPG for 5 years and it blew up and it did really well. And so there's there's people in both camps who get angry about this. Um but I think a a a pretty good rule of thumb is working on a game for 4 years is hell. It is not I mean for the most part for the most part and the main reason why is imagine if you were um playing a game of poker for 4 years and you're hoping and you're going to end up going all in anyway. That's how it feels. The stress is out out of this world because you're I I I think we've spent over half a million on this game and it's just constant constant constant worry and and anxiety. Is this thing going to pay off? Have you ever read the book um I've talked about it before, but it's called 10x is better than 2x? Have you heard of this book?

Yeah, I no. I've never read it. It's about shooting for the moon in any sort of venture. So whether it's making a game or or making a movie or writing a book or making an online course or a blog. It's about shooting for the moon and making the greatest thing ever. That's a better gamble than making something small that doesn't have very high margin. What are your thoughts on that? I I don't believe in that.
[laughter]
I don't believe in that at all. That's such a bro-y thing.
[laughter]
People love to see a
be bros here. We are and I'm trying to I'm I'm coming in for the hug. I'm being like your bro that's like chill out. Like here's a let me go for this thing. Like
[snorts]
this is what I don't This is why I love these great conjunction games versus this thing. And here's here's the history for for folks. The history of making a game for PC and indie games, you used to make flash games

and your hope was to get a sponsorship or through ad money to make like 10 to 20,000 dollars, okay? That was like people are like, that's the ceiling. That's my dream is 10 to 20 grand. So their ambitions [clears throat] scaled with that. They're like, okay, well, if if the max is 20,000, am I going to spend 4 years to make 20,000 dollars? No. They're like, okay, let's get some games out. If I make five games a year times 20,000, I'm making, you know, 100,000 dollars a year. And then all of a sudden this first golden age said, no, no, no, indie games could make like 10 million dollars. And then people are like, oh, okay, now my goal is 10 million. That was terrible. That was awful.
[laughter]
Because now everybody sees that as what is the goal. If everybody just kept and this is very hard to say. If everybody just kept thinking, yeah, I'm just going to keep making 20,000 dollars a year we'd be in much healthier place and this is like Zoli Berry Nelson Jr. who makes

the click holding game. That's his goal. He's just like, hey, I'm going to keep it humble. I'm not going to go for 10x. 2x is awesome and we'll keep going there. And and then you have a nice healthy [laughter] life. I just want you to have a healthy life. And so what happens is the reason is um games and you always have to get a publisher and stuff is cuz everybody wants to get that 10 million thing. And I'm like, chill the freak out everybody. Just chill out and go for 2x because you can do 2x faster and you're going to have a better life. Yeah. [laughter] Um that's the thing is and that's why I love this moment. And when you ask like, do you think this is good? I love this because these are the type of games a lot of these games won't do fantastic and when I chart it out, so I go to my blog and I chart it out all the recent Friendslip games. There are games you can't even see them on the chart, okay? They're like you you look in, you have to zoom in and there's like one little bump and it it doesn't even register. But this game made like multiple

hundreds of thousands of dollars. And if anybody just looks at this and has that red 10x 2x, they'd be like, look at that [ __ ] stupid game. It didn't even get any big. That is a total middle class income for this dude who made a game that showed up on the graph like this big. But everybody looks at the huge spike and says, oh, man, he didn't get up to that huge spike. He sucks. Yep. Enjoy your
[laughter]
life, folks. I want I'm trying to make this feel better for folks. I think I think that's great, man. I really do. And I was talking to David Whaley um about your article this morning and he he's he and I are both kind of burnt out and um now his game I know his game is going to 10x. It's pretty obvious. Um it is. Yeah, it will. But uh he he totally agreed at least in part. He didn't really have any disagreements, but he agreed in part with your article basically how that's kind of his goal is to is to just for this for the next game to just

take it easy and take a shower and just chill, you know? Now I do I do have this question. What do you think about starting at 1 1x and or 2x and then scaling to 10x in your career? Doesn't that make sense? Like if you can do 2x and then you can do 3x and then 4x. Like or should we constantly I I understand this isn't black and white, but like I just don't think developers should just keep pumping out small games. Uh or all of them should do that. Eventually some people are made to make big projects. Right? That have polish, that have depth and and complexity and they're they're 50, 60 dollar games. I Have you seen there's this documentary and I think it's called 20 feet from stardom. I think is what it's called. I think 10 10 I can't remember the distance. I think it's 20 feet from stardom, right?
Let's see here. Uh 20 feet from stardom. You got it. You got it. 2013. Nice.

And it's a documentary about the backup singers for rock stars. And they just follow these people. And I think they also do some session musicians. These people they interview one of the ladies who's a backup singer and she's driving a Mercedes and it's a nice Mercedes and she's she's good and she's like, nobody knows who I am. I'm not famous. I There's she but she has sung with the greatest rock stars on Earth. She's in so many albums like the most famous albums. She's like, yep, I'm on that album on that album. Nobody knows who she is and she is making a very good living. But nobody knows who she is and it's all about in a creative field those backup singers, the session musicians, those people are like the most happy people. And it's just like just be appreciate what it is and it's not all about the money and the 10x. It's about like appreciating the art and they appreciate the art. They're they participated in the greatest art, but they're like 20 feet back. Nobody knows who they are. Really, folks.

Watch that documentary. It's really good and it's really fun. Um but that's my philosophy is like who wants to be the number one?
[laughter]
So like why? That sounds so awful. And And the other thing, folks, these 2x 10x I I don't I It's probably about venture capital. That venture capital stuff is just it You have to understand the context of that. And those books are written for venture capitalists who want to make a billion dollars or something. They want to make a 10 100 million billion dollars. Who cares? Like there are going to be crazies that do that, but I think the best life is just like a nice humble one. It's not all about the money. It's about just like having a day-to-day mm living and it's it's wonderful and taking showers. That sounds amazing. You know, I think I think I can definitely um I've gleaned a lot from this conversation. I'm not sure I'm not sure where I've landed. Where I've landed is something like just so people know, I guess where my head

is. Making small games is not fun for a lot of people. Some people they want to they want to go big. And so if it if it all comes down to let's say game devs enjoying their lives again and not being miserable and and suffering through the grind there's part of me, man that wonders if I would be more miserable if I was making small games.
[snorts]
You know? There's part of me that I I we'll see, you know, but I feel I feel even though I'm exhausted and even though I feel as Bilbo says like butter to a butter scraped over too much bread, even though that's how I feel I'd rather do the Bilbo thing and go from the Hobbit the Shire all the way to Smaug or Frodo all the way to Mount Doom. That's what I would four five years. That's what I would rather do on a I guess

like a spiritual um uh what's what am I trying to say? It's more of a spiritual goal or like a personal goal than even a financial one. I'm happier doing the bigger thing. And I'm not saying it's better and I'm not saying it's more artistically uh pure. I think I'm just happier going bigger. We'll see cuz I might try a couple small games and see how it goes. But I I just I don't know if everybody has to make small games. Here's the thing that I think is like and this is generally like I don't think that I mean in the end we are making video games. These are fun things that bring joy to people's lives. Okay? And even if you have to make a game that you

didn't know about it is not like you're making banking software.
[laughter]
You could be making it's like oh my god, I don't get to eat this cake that I want. I have to make eat this pie that I don't want. Like you're still making video games and it is the most delicious thing the most fun thing in the world. It's not like I'm saying Thomas you have to go make banking something. Thomas you have to go shovel the trains. We are still making video games and I'm just asking you to make a slightly different toy than the toy that you like to make. It is still so fun. You're still making art. You're still watching people get smiles on their face and saying ooh we need to make more of this to make bigger smiles. You're still like doing all this fun stuff. And so when I hear devs say like well that's not my type of game. You are still making one of the most beautiful fun things in the world. It's the most

beautiful art form in the world and you still get to make it. I'm not asking you to make accounting software. I'm going to I'm going to adjust the metaphor here and then we'll close. To me it's like saying Thomas you've been making paintball guns for 10 years. This year we're going to make squirt guns. It is a big difference to me personally. It's like oh man I was so passionate about
[laughter]
Thomas what's going on over there? What is going on over there? You're still going to chase and run around and play and people get wet or they get paint on them. I I don't what what are you all right over there Thomas? You know I don't know. I don't I think I'm I am I think you need a break. OKAY, HERE'S HERE'S THE THING THOMAS. [laughter] THERE WAS ONE guy that I profiled and the people everybody I interviewed I interviewed a lot of people that were making all types of games. A lot of them

took a break. They stopped their game. They never went back by the way to their dream game. There were like several people that I interviewed they were like I'm working four years on this dream game and then they took a break and then they found success with one of these conjunction games. They were so happy. They were like so happy and you would think if I was asking them to throw away their dream hell game that they'd be like well no every single one of them was like this is the best thing. This is so fun. And you know what's you know what the fun is? I think people have a misplacement of what they were wanting to do. They think that making their dream game is what brings them happiness. What brings them happiness is people going this is so fun. I love what you're making. And when I see people who struggled for four years working on this game that didn't go anywhere and then they make this little silly game and it takes off. They are so happy. And one of the guys I profiled is guy that's making a game about a black hole I think it is. Have you interviewed that guy? Aeromous.

What's the game called? If you watch his YouTube he's he's been documenting him making games. You can just watch one of his original ones when he was making a game that wasn't very successful and his next one he made another game that's not successful and then you watch his latest ones when he made a game about a black hole which isn't released yet but it's getting tons of wishlists. You can just line up those YouTube's and push play at the same time and his mood is so happy for this black hole game and it's like what are we doing? Like step back. Like we get one life here. Yep. One life. Why why it's just like and this is a philosophical like it's what are we doing here? Like have fun. We who is this for? Who are we trying to please? Well I think I think devil's advocate man. I think it's You hell the devil what what is who am I talking to here?
[laughter]
YOU'RE BEING THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE. You say game dev is hell. I'm trying to

bring the light to y'all and this guy is bringing all the hell. Let's Thomas paint give me the hell. Well the hell the devil's advocate hell would be or the devil's advocate is people people doing the four year thing. They're trying to make a game that they want to play and that they've they've they there's this vision in their head of something they want to play. And sometimes that just takes a really long time to make. And so here's my thinking. And you're you're correct in that it's not one five one size fits all. There's there's a place for every kind of developer. I don't want people to leave this conversation and think that that making small games like feeding a black hole. It looks great. Looks cool. But that's not the end for a lot of developers. A lot of developers their job is to to to make the big game that's 60 bucks that has a high level of polish. And look to to make those games

it just requires an intense level of detail and and you do have to suffer and you do have to struggle. Um I I I am of the opinion that game devs expecting game devs expecting that it's always just going to be easy and it's just going to be I'm just going to make fun small games. I don't think that's a good way to think either. I think there is a balance that needs to be struck which is there is a there is a time and a place for grind. There is a time and a place for suffering as a developer of powering through. There's a time and a place for polish. But there's also a time and a place for quick iterative design and launching your game and just getting it out there. I think there's a time and a place for all of this and I think all you're pointing out is that the iterative stuff the quick stuff for some reason it's blowing up. So let's let's jump in and make these games and feel proud of it.

Is that kind of what you're saying? I am. I think you should fun people. Come on let's have some fun here. And what I'm saying is I think a lot of people who are artistically minded there's there's this world that from the outside you think artists are like I suffer for my art. This is this and if you watch that indie game the movie I hate that movie because it told people like oh oh okay to be an indie dev I have to go look I have to suffer and you have to cry and they just somehow like a little duckling who
[laughter]
on what their mother is they saw that video and like a little ducking duckling that imprinted on the first thing they saw they saw these people that are like I am SUFFERING FOR MY ART AND they're like oh that is what an artist is. And it is not. I'm trying I like I haven't I like I have seen lots of people making great stuff having fun and I just don't

think you have to think oh if I don't have this existential crisis and cry then I'm not making art. I think that
[clears throat]
that is a cliche that people who are new to thinking critically about art. Not everybody goes and reads art history. They think that that is what art is is this I'm suffering. That's not it. It's it's fun. It's it's being creative and suffering for your art is not a valor thing and that's that's what I don't agree with is I don't like that attitude of oh to make art I must have had to suffer. And I just do not think that that's the case and I think that's toxic. I think it's toxic for people to have that thing. I'm not saying great art can be made if somebody suffers but it just I I just don't think that those are necessary and I and I don't like that attitude that says like well if you didn't suffer you didn't you're not an artist. I just I

don't like that attitude and I think it's toxic. I just don't I don't think devs if you're watching this you've never made a game I just don't want you to have that. I don't want you to learn that lesson. That's what I'm trying to tell you. I think that's good man. I think that um one one caveat is that yeah and I love this conversation because we are coming at it from different angles. Just because you are suffering doesn't mean you're on the wrong path either. I think but here's my thought. Here's why here's why okay? Someone like Ken Levine who's been working 10 years on Judas. We'll see. We'll see how the game does. Okay? But like you don't you don't go 10 years without being miserable. It's going to happen. You're going to be miserable. And so it's just because you're miserable and just because you're grinding doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong. Now it I love what you said suffering does not mean valor. I agree with you there.

Just because you're suffering doesn't mean that you're an artist. I don't think they're correlated. Value or I'm sorry valor and suffering or a great game and suffering they're not correlated. But suffering can be an ingredient. It often is an ingredient to game developers. My my my thought with that is like I think devs who are new to this industry see that kind of attitude and they they mistakenly think that that is necessary. And so they pick up these behaviors. They they see these famous people who have done well and have suffered for their art and they think, "Oh, well, that's what I have to do." So then they they make these choices and they decide what they're going to work on based on this thing that is like you said has no correlation. They just believe, "Okay, well, that's a popular person and they suffered, so I guess I got to start

suffering for myself."
[laughter]
And so I think that that by by setting that as an example of, "Oh, this is art. If you don't suffer, I'm sorry, you're just not a true artist." And I think that that is a toxic thing that I don't like about indie games in the current state. And it is. And I'm not saying anybody in particular, but I just I see that from a lot of new impressionable devs and I don't like that [laughter] attitude. And I just want you all to know that you can have fun and still be making art no matter what. You know, in 2009 and 10 and then we'll wrap up here. In 2009 and 10 it was really cool like the hipster mentality or the skinny jean mentality. It was really cool to be like emotional and to be upset all the time. To be dark and to suffer, right? And talk about how you're you're suffering all the time. It was really popular. I mean, I grew up that was my high school years and so it was really cool to be that way. Pictures

of her didn't exist. What's that? I I got to see some pictures. Oh, dude. No, you don't. Um but that was a response I think that was a response to the previous generation saying like everything stoic all the time. And and and and and you work hard and you make money and that's what happens, right? And so it's this big response in in 2009 and 10 to lean into this like suffering for a craft, being artsy, being emotional, being moody. And I think the pendulum is swinging in a in I guess a totally different dimension or a different direction, which is um like you're saying, it's not it's not even part of the the equation. You don't have to suffer. You don't have to be miserable to make games. Um I think at bare minimum what you're saying is have fun and and make it a priority to at least try to to make a game sustainably with joy.

I think that's a really good message. Okay, Chris, thanks for coming on, man. Links in the description for What would you like? Anything you want. Um how to market a game.com/free is my newsletter where I post this stuff. Don't subscribe to my YouTube channel, it sucks. YouTube sucks. Um and then I'll link to the article down below. That way you can read it and see the full context. All righty. Thank you so much, Chris. That was a great conversation. Take it easy, man. I love it. I love you, Thomas. I love you, too. Cheers. Let's go out and go play some friend slot game sometime. [snorts] Let's go have some Doritos and hang out.