Challenges and Wins of Pausing the Game Industry with Collin Fogel | GduX.me

[Music] welcome welcome welcome to GDX and me so all these graphics any type of cool art that you guys seen have been coming from this man right here and a little small introduction Colin if you don't mind can you give us some insight of where you're from where you're at where you're heading just a little resume check it's just to give listeners and viewers out an introduction see if they haven't heard you on our podcast or any well you know really quick recap I mean I was in the game industry since 2000 and visual concepts which is now owned by 2k Marin was my first studio in the Bay Area ever since then I always knew that I wanted to kind of create my own comic book or

do my own thing at some point on my own property you know get to do my own art direction my own characters everything so I feel that after 18 years in the game industry I've decided to kind of take a break and work on a graphic novel which will definitely hopefully talk about a little bit more later but yeah I'm not quite sure what else I need to add in there I mean I did work on Bioshock 2 with you and after that I then worked on the Skylanders franchise for like five years so that was kind of a big thing and that was sort of where I ended it and I decided to take a break and move up to Bend Oregon no longer worried about commutes whatnot you know raise our new daughter that we just had two years ago so that's been a big life change yeah I'm not good but

yeah is there anything else maybe add in there I'm not quite sure wow this is actually a nice little tidbit for longtime listeners and people who have been at least following along our own story here be kind of nicely talk about because TK was my first official job in the industry and I think he came on like maybe uh maybe a couple months after I did or five months after I did but we it was like a project that was I one wouldn't say complete chaos but we definitely needed like some order and you came in to kind of lead our modeling team there to help out with that was uh so have you to kind of give some insight on how that worked I guess what was your impression going to the project like that not to expand it to to too much but kind of give like a little story there because I feel like when I first met you

- it was it was an eye-opener because the the modeling team was still pretty junior level outside of you coming on and you kind of clean house also it was also very small for a triple-a studio I was kind of shocked you know we had what four people five people but yeah for me it was definitely interesting learning experience because at that point when I was put in that kind of lead role I was just a yes-man I was so happy to you know be given that opportunity per usual I thought the people around me were also you know put through a rigorous interviewing process or because of their skills they were where they were but yeah definitely it was definitely a tough road man I mean I feel like yeah I think we had the modeling team happy after a little bit with you know or camaraderie of you know walks and you

know actually chatting a lot doing lunches a lot together everything and just being a really capable team but yeah unfortunately the rest wasn't around us to the back of us up at that point you know so that made life really hard yeah yeah it was my first experience of the political game that I was not at all aware at all because when you came on you had a lease like what seven years of experience before 2k or eight years yeah I think at that point I had ten years but I wasn't really ever involved in politics you know I was like most people where I was like okay I get paid to do this job and it wasn't until I got the more creative roles or titles that I realized like you need people around you that believe in creativity you know and are willing to let you guys kind of run

with it but yeah I don't want to get too much into that because yeah I think it'll turn into a big trash-talking session but uh I feel like at that point yeah I was just too young and I didn't know to push back I mean that was my one thing is when we were being given on insane deadlines and constantly being retold we're told to redo entire levels that took months to make just because of someone's one random opinion in a meeting it's like you learn as a leader manager that you need to push back and if nothing happens from that and yeah you're pretty much screwed yeah put it lightly you know so yeah you either got to get the money or hope there's something better on the horizon yeah and I don't want to go too deep into it because it's it's a deep hole I just want to paint a picture of where we were at least ah last time I worked with you at a physical location and kind of

like Glee link grazing pass a few more like games that you put out to where you are right now so at some point right which is the the focal point of this talk or this conversation is that you decided to hit a pause button and it sounds very casual when I say it but like it it's heart-wrenching because I myself gone through this little mental shift where just to kind of give you a little insight and then I'll definitely throw it back to you where I had to just just rethink what I'm used to like like a comfortable salary you know I put in my two weeks and then I get two weeks out of a paycheck out of it and somewhat reliable until you know get laid off or whatever at least a faux pas version of

reliability but there's some comfort into that but at some point like every developer wishes what you've done is like being able to you know I want to focus on other things I have enough comfortable income where I can do this and just make the move over to Oregon can you kind of talk about that pivotal moment where you were kind of stockpiling your cash making the decisions I shouldn't I like can you kind of walk us through that moment where to finally when you decided to go with it like what was going through your mind well once again I don't want to sound like I'm doing another big session but I think it reminded me once again a2k where I was at or at least the team I was with not not to Kay I mean we all know that teens change every couple of years people come go teams get laid off but you know I was at another studio where was just kind of the same thing it was a or not same thing but you know we had an art director who didn't care to

be there work on games we got as an environment concept artist you know 3d modeler builder world creator I was never invited to the game design meetings to even talk about the composition or what the theme of the levels would be so you know what I mean after a while you realize that you're back in that same pattern of just hey get a paycheck don't worry about making the best level the best product the best because it's just not going to happen you you can push push you could reach out for help you can ask we'd say I've been doing all this work you know I created the last two levels that were used our you know toy conventions or e3 and you still get no respect so I think for me at one point it just came down to that no respect and of course the typical

commute in the bay you know how it is it's just crazy rent everything so you got to look further and further away from your studios and I just needed a break to do my own thing I mean I've always wanted to do my own comic and if that means I can also own my own property and characters and just something that I can put on my portfolio that shows hey I'm capable of creating or directing you know concept in I mean I have my color palettes and I'll probably show some pages later but you know I got a very interesting color palette going with some of my stuff so yeah that was kind of my final move right there was I just knew the next couple of years were gonna be hell and our studio is either gonna go down well we were going to get nothing but you know typical trademark worked again instead of fun creative work and sure enough that has happened so I'm kind of

glad I left made to move it's giving me a lot of time to also hang with my kid but yeah we'll talk about that also later kazar when we talk about my daily schedule it's definitely not a nine-to-five you know five days a week it's all over the place right now so so yeah I mean aside from location because ever since I known you you've been in the Bay Area for a long time you're not originally from there but you spend a good amount of your career in the Bay Area all the way since Sega right all the way to to the point where you left to Oregon [Music] so how was that what was what was the attraction there like how why organ of all places well that's not really a game related like incident or anything that was just my wife and I were just trying to figure out where we wanted to move and I didn't really like any area around

the bay didn't want to move to Tahoe because that's not really a you know city a town anything and Northern California is a little too many small towns nothing really there so we found Bend Oregon and gosh it's this beautiful you know Mountain ski town with a river that runs through it we have lots of beer you know fest that go on and breweries in town and I mean it just seems like a nice more smaller town that I kind of need right now you know it's definitely sick of the traffic the commute and the Bay Area and it's just um yeah I wish I had a better answer to why we picked this town but you know yeah so I'm gonna run through a lot of your artwork well would you this interview but so the last time we talked you were going into your your hobby your

now your profession but you actually are one of the few developers that I know that have able to kind of balance two different skill set within the game industry you're 3d artists as well as an excellent 2d artists that you've kept up over the years I remember at least at 2k you were in the parking lot kind of inking inking your your pages during lunch breaks and stuff just to kind of uh you know just a mental shift in your workflow now how did you get into this business because that that other side of like enjoying how to do things like kind of restarting that network to is like a whole different skill to kind of keep up to make sure that is something viable for yourself uh yeah I

mean keep in mind when I got into the game industry I was a little shocked because I figured most artists knew how to draw a little bit because you know growing up I didn't have a computer or Photoshop anything it was all comic books you know I loved certain cartoons so you want to draw get creative and it was definitely I think when I finally got into the game industry and after all the interviewing and all we got looking for portfolio this and that I was kind of shocked I was like wow it seems like only 1020 percent of artists actually not a draw and 3d is just kind of a secondary you know creative tool but I've always preferred drawing because it keeps me I think creative it's any time I do a level or have to come up with something new especially at Skylanders which I loved I could really draw upon my color palettes and my just fun saturated colors uh my creativity of all my days back in the day with playing with Legos

and you know rebuilding constantly new stuff but um so yeah to me though also drawing comic books is a little more less stressful I mean we don't know in the 3d world that just changes so much technology is so crazy at times people just assume you know give the art timo a month and they'll be up and rolling from you know this new interior software to you know a another software we just bought like unreal or something which is you know great programs but it always takes time to learn to be efficient and with my art I feel like I can definitely just sit back and I don't want to say basic skills because it does take a lot of you know compositing and all sorts of I don't know random skills yeah we'll say but it's a lot less tech intensive than the game industry so right now it's

nice taking a little break from the tech part I'm sure any time I have to go back I mean we all know it just takes a a few months or a little bit of time to just pick up what that team is actually using and then luckily I have my well of creativity to draw from thanks to my drawing and everything and my constant coloring and whereas I feel other artists they might just you know know how to use a 3d program and look at an image and copy it but I do also love the fact that I will have more on my resume like I said I have videogames now I have thanks to you and a few other people at some you know apparel like shirts and stuff I've done logos or I got to do a beer logo for bare roots Brewing Company down there and what is it Irvine oh la la vista california I think it's down near San Diego and I got to do

fees to flip what is it uh yeah piece of flesh the new Wendy's DoD game I got to do some top-down Maps thanks to my buddy Alex Lopez who I also worked with that 2k visual concepts are in the early 2000s and now I'm gonna have you know eight issues with another comic printed by Antarctic Press so it's kind of a nice repertoire my portfolio you know resume whatever and it feels good so I'm hoping that in the future this will you know allow me to one day if I ever go back to maybe a big city or a job or something and I look better as a potential for art director creative direct or something rather than just you know in the seat artists so I don't think it'll everyone I don't think enough credit is due right there I mean like we can always tell a great 2d

artists through 3d at least I've noticed right how you can kind of bring over all those lessons in composition and color theory back into the 3d art and it just elevates the art form itself within a game environment you're talking about taking that step away from the industry to kind of better your skill because I think I me and you can both relate being in a game development cycle where it's three to five years or something we're kind of stuck yes there are some creative flexibility there but you're still working within a box most likely you're repeating the same techniques over and over to kind of get the asset out or level out or whatever there's very little time to really explore and experiment most of that is done yeah I think you can agree at the beginning of a game cycle but during it which is the big chunk of it 75 to 80

percent of the game is more about just repeating rinse and just putting it out there just to get things going so I would say most developers don't have that fast growth that we all would like to dedicate time to and and I think you and I just being in those circles now in a smaller development team that independent developers or smaller developers or at least shorter dev cycles have tremendous growth and in versatility and is able to just do pretty much a little bit of everything and when they bring it back into like a big studio they are like lightyears above other developers who are kind of used to this this cog like machine right so I don't know if you're there yet and you kind of talk about a little bit how

you kind of tampered with different projects like taking a break from hazel and working on that D&D game for your friend how was that like transition did you find yourself going back into that as like man resuming back to this workflow I feel like I mean you're getting used to it again but also like you probably feel pretty good - pretty strong right well yeah that was another one where I'm sure every artist can relate - is even when you know they contacted me they love my work you know after my buddy showed them my portfolio but they were still of course like ok but can you do top-down Maps you know cuz you know if you draw characters 3d whatever everybody wants to see what they're gonna probably get from you already on your website so I did have to do a little test which they did like but yeah it was definitely a tough transition

because I mean I knew I could do it but the timeline was very very short so I didn't get a be very creative with it it was pretty much you know here's a street here's a house here's your layout whereas if I had more time I would have loved to have gone in there and definitely you know added more of like a pond with some you know treasure trust around that or whatever more broken wood just more decorative you know scenes scene work so I mean it came down to like two days for one map and all in Photoshop top-down but it was awesome like I said cuz now I'm gonna get a big booklet with you know my work in its hopefully people are playing it my buddy Alex did an amazing job on the you know characters so it looks like people definitely know it's a quality you know product at least but um yeah it was tough because I did some major late

nights that's you know I pretty much have to watch my kid most of the day I mean we do have a babysitter from time to time but I used my nights to really get my art done and when the DMD came that's when I was literally staying up to like 3 or 4 a.m. in the morning and I know it's sleep 2 9 or 10 the next day and you know my kid would come back from the babysitter so yeah it's definitely being a crazy lifestyle right now I mean even with this comic that you see hazel right here I'll talk about the split book in a moment but um yeah it's just pretty much I live my nights doing all this I mean I try to sleep as much in the day and then from 8:00 to 9:00 at night hopefully 12 2 a.m. in the morning I try to pump this comic book out so when this is finally over at the end of the year which I'm hoping early January into December I can finally go

back to playing a few video games which I haven't done in a long time and go to bed early you know regular hours and focus more on hanging out with our kid and my wife of course but yeah so that was that was definitely a wrench because once I was done also with the DMD switching back into hazel took me a few days I mean you had to get back in the zone of penciling again and drawing I mean it's I mean like I've always said it's definitely scary seeing a blank sheet of paper and having to you know put quality work on it so that's all I have for that well I kind of want to ask you more about this because he took on a couple of challenges or new challenges all at once right yeah you're you have a newborn she's about two years old down but you kind of started this kind of new

path in Oregon lights it sounded like you kind of you kind of settled in Oregon and then had that baby right after the house because it happened pretty within the year right if I remember it correctly like pretty fast yes plan but it was obviously I mean it worked out perfectly so I mean we move my wife works from home thankfully right now I you know took time off which I think I mentioned in my last podcast I got to finally learn how to do home improvement which is cool so did tile work you know built fence redid my back deck paint you name all sorts of stuff so it was kind of also a multi growing experience I mean anything are related I am definitely still doing just in trying out different tools mediums and right now it's going to be my graphic novel and video games in 3d I'll always be there as soon because it's yeah I think it's pretty

easy to jump back in and pick it back up well it kind of to talk more about your schedules in how you balance that your you spend a good amount of your life right pretty much used to doing aside from your wife or I'm not doing your wife but I'm saying aside from spending time with their wife or spending time with family right you kind of had time to yourself to kind of focus on your craft so how was that man when now you have a newborn and other responsibilities that take a lot of your time and you're kind of talking about now you're kind of like a night owl to make sure that you put in the amount of dedication do you feel like although yes you have a lot more responsibilities how do you keep yourself competitive let's say to a colon Colin Fogle that isn't married or has a kid like how do you

still build up on your skills and do what everything that you want to do but without the time that you used to have I think this is a problem that most artists as they age encounter a lot and I kind of want to hear your thoughts about that man yeah yeah I don't really know what to say on that I mean I do know that you have because I don't know I mean maybe if you're single and you don't have what I have you might procrastinate a little more or maybe you won't it comes down to the drive I guess so I mean I still definitely beat your progress and they take a little time to myself but yeah it feels like definitely certain times especially when the kids not here it's like okay I have to make do with my limited time and just push forward but originally it was a lot easier and now that I'm you know at the what is it the point of no return where I do have a

publisher they do have set dates for me it does feel real I am now having to yeah just step up and use a lot of my night time every every time and just hope for the finish and it would be nice if I could work on a project but doesn't take over a year you know I mean video games takes a few years this comic has taken me a year and a half but if I did have a full week off eight-hour day I'm sure we've done a lot quicker so I don't really know how to say how I keep the edge over someone else though that might have all that free time I mean it's well let me kind of pay in my sample write like you know work studio or any type of settings that you're around other colleagues and stuff it's easy to kind of look over your shoulders like well you know I kind of started when he started before we should kind of end up at the same so you're constantly kind of being friendly

competition in friendly competition with your colleague too and that kind of helps you know some kind of improvement but like now that we're discovering and you've been doing this longer than I have just working in your office alone aside from maybe like browsing art station or something like that there is that lack of it's not motivation but like not I mean there is that freedom and comfort was like hey you know it's up to me if I want to finish this or not but you don't have that nagging feeling that your buddy is like kind of one upping you every time or every deadline or every stand up you know I mean I don't know if you ever thought about that or it affects you in any way you know it never has I've never been one of those people I think it's always just been do the best that I can and I feel like that's always worked out but I wonder if it's just because my style

from my comic book background has allowed me to kind of not feel like any game I work on anything I work on I can kind of adjust my style to fit that I guess but I don't know I think to me if just yeah it comes down to Drive and passion I mean it's it's like we I'm sure you've talked about this many times like you can have a studio full of a hundred people and you find out later on that maybe for those people are attempting to work on their own video games outside of work you know everybody else just goes home plays video games or does whatever so it definitely does come down to the individual with that drive and passion and like I said I right now have a driving passion to hopefully own something that can you know a product that can make me money or someone want to make toy off of or a video game or a movie or something so if the paycheck

though keeps you happy and you're ok with you know your apartment and your crazy commute even though you've been in the industry for 10 15 years that's great but I feel like this is maybe another option to get me what I want or where I need to go so well that's the big question do you have at least a set idea of what you want to do in five 10 years I mean I you're discovering like this new new industry which is the comic industry which I want to talk a bit about your your first major deal that you're working on right now but also that's like a different trajectory right within games we kind of like you made it through Leigh you made it as senior leave you know maybe come back as create director sure that but that's a different path from where you are right now in a different industry like what what is a you want it like a Marvel movie mate yeah let me go back really

quick to you know I feel like some people you know they get things handed to them like not everybody so I don't wanna make this a blanket state and I please forgive me but um you know you know I have kind of worked with you know an order director that can draw will say and so you and I both know no matter how hard we work we'll probably never get that because we need connections or you know that you know executive producer or whatever but I've noticed that there's a lot of comic book artists that get way more credibility and you know they're now getting scooped up by game companies to be there art director and whatnot and this and that so I'm also hoping that aside from create my own product you know a comic book everything it also just gets me exposure to people like that who might be like oh man we love this guy style he's obviously creative he can probably do medieval futuristic whatever he has

his own book published he's got a name out there let's bring him on as our creative director you know or something so I'm hoping kind of this opens avenues in all fields but I do hope obviously that I get more of a more of an opening the comic book industry cuz I would love to do a lot more conventions meet a lot more pros you know I've just always had a lot of idols I have never been able to meet I mean good luck go into a Comic Con and actually talking to any of these people and seeing how they do it you know what they do on their you know what their daily schedules like just watching them sketch or how they actually draw you know certain things compose so yeah and then from there of course you know I'm just hoping it snowballs I mean I think like everybody I hope to god one day ID 3 or something or even at a comic economy and I see someone dressed as hazel walking around you know I'd love to see a cosplayer or if I ever get

money I might try to Commission that if this comic book actually picks off you know picks up but yeah so it's yeah all about dry passion yeah well do you might kind of give me like a in the audience out there kind of like a peak of where the comic industry is right now because when you're talking about comic-con 2 it's kind of been like dominated by Hollywood right being with their press conferences and stuff is it more like people trying to get a movie deal now or a show deal is at the end game for a lot of comic artists you know I'm really not sure what everybody is out there believe it or not I mean I am oh god I mean like I said I don't even play video games anymore the last two years because I'm just spending on my free time trying to draw if I can but let's see here

well how did this comic deal come about like was it through networking like you mentioned before like because it seems like it's it's a tough tough industry to get into yeah it's definitely really tough I mean I think what gave me my biggest boost was when I first sent out my first pitch like a year ago and I heard back from Dark Horse within a week and that kind of gave me my boost like okay yes I think I have the quality work to make it so this is the right Avenue you know I mean it is a lot of time and you always sit there and second-guess your stock so if you're always like oh my god is all this time and effort worth it and then in a year nobody wants to publish it and then I'm screwed doing it myself I don't have the time when you do all this so I definitely needed to find a publisher and I'm fortunate with Dark Horse they just stopped I mean they want to you know work done with my script and

story in anyway long story short I am now luckily with Antarctic press down in Texas and yeah it just feels good knowing that something's going to get out there to the public you know I mean I'm not a promoter really can't really go to Comic Cons I mean they're definitely like you said being taken over by a lot of Hollywood movie stuff and actors and cosplayers and whatnot but still yeah just so yeah I don't really have a pulse on the comic industry quite yet I'm hoping once it's book comes out I'll get more of a better idea you know how it's going where I stand the end goal is to definitely make money back so if a studio does wind up buying it that's probably the best way if it doesn't sell as well you know in comic book form but I do see it as a gorgeous video

gamer movie that's for sure one day so we shall see mm-hmm well let's talk about hazel it's about to see its first print all right you were talking about it to me on a personal level but do you mind kind of sharing that piece of news as well [Music] yes so originally it was going to be a three-issue miniseries and luckily the editors down in an art press they have another very gorgeous great comic book called interstellar dust which is by CJ Hutt Hudson and Ben Flores and it's a it's more of a space comic book mine's more of a futuristic you know mine's definitely in New York in the future I wanted to do more of a special agent team that has to go you know into the sewers the depths so that's why they have these sort of gas you know helmets

that they can wear underwater and gas whatever poisonous locations but um and I mean it does have a little bit of that Japanese anime theme so if you noticed the bathing suit with a little bit of skin showing I originally wanted more but I got got to keep it a little you know realistic I guess but yeah so anyway in February is when it should be published in this you know double feature called off world even though my comics called hazel and theirs is called interstellar dust they're going to do a flip book and that way my three issues might be three issues they'll be in six issues now and then hopefully if it does well I'll get a director's cut three issue print afterward and if it does well I'm hoping I can find someone to actually do the combined graphic novel sex I think most people also like buying that worships in one book but yeah so that's how that's

gone so far I mean it's definitely I mean God just the unknown of him knowing if anybody would publish it was the scariest part like I said because I do feel quality work it's just yeah you got a hope you know they so many pitches and you got to hope you were the one thing I want to publish so that definitely feels good so I'm also definitely interested in now as you are kind of building this up and getting a lot of traction with your new career which is I think a lot of people when they hear about this is scariest look because you're basically starting a new industry when starting new connections and there might be some overlap thankfully we are all geeks that there are some connections out there to kind of help you kind of boost you through things but kind of taking that pause button I'm sure like we we talk

often enough and you I'm sure you talk to other friends that are still in the industry being able to step away from it for the last two years correct one yeah what kind of conversations is it three years it's been three now but um or maybe two and a half but yeah I think what kept me relevant is that I keep working on art I keep you know posting it because I am working on hazel I do feel that my art is you know improving you know every month that I work on it so I feel like that leaves the gates open you know I have a lot of ex co-workers I do contact me and offer me free you're not free job but offer me contract work or whatnot and I see that I'm still you know staying relevant and still working you know I haven't just fallen off and all my skills are going to waste and whatnot I'm still very well

driven and it's still attempting or at least this will be like my one shot probably for a while at doing like my own dream I mean I would love to do probably a video game as well but I just feel like that would just require me to have to have more people and a lot more time to do which I just can't so right now the comic book seems more feasible but um yeah don't don't get me wrong oh man every time I do see some video games I just want to jump back in and do some very you know fun creative work because I feel like yeah it's kind of lacking out there right now a lot of it's more that realistic and indie indie games where the cool styles are actually coming from so well I kind of want to ask you about how aside from kind of taking a step back but I'm still keeping contact with all your friends that value your skillset that it's something that I

don't feel a lot of game developers talk about when they kind of take their foot off the pedal when it comes to just just one upping themselves with the next big game right I think that's like a like a death cycle that can happen but I want you to kind of explain how the other aspects of your life being better like the the ability to kind of swatch your your daughter grow I mean the simple things like that I feel like I didn't really think about I mean I've been only at this for like five six months way shorter than you have but it was it was something that I dreamt about but not really fully appreciated as soon as I started to work from home and focus on my own thing where I was like holy crap like all this stuff I was missing out

and would have kept on missing out and disappearing life itself where gamedev is very demanding of your time in the office as we all know yeah I mean I feel like maybe I had been a little spoiled so I haven't really thought about too much about what I'm gonna see nowadays because I do know I mean I did enjoy going to work you know every company I had I always had a group of buddies or I'm the type where every hour so I had to get up and just go say hi or see you know what people were working on and what so I did enjoy kind of that aspect you know the camaraderie the chatting with other creative people right now I'm definitely more in my own element just you know in a beautiful area with my family but yeah I guess the whole 9:00 to 5:00 Monday through Friday aspect the

commute working with people that you know don't really have a vision at all and whatnot all that stress and everything is just kind of out of the way everything relies on me so I'm definitely a lot more picky ER and still a little hard on myself you know when I'm drawing and whatnot I I hope every page looks like gold even though it's not so I got a push on through but yeah definitely I mean it is a trip I mean it is awesome being able to have this time to yeah hang out with my kid that's that's true I mean most people had met they're like you're lucky you know I guess I don't really see a dad walking their kid around in the daytime that often you know and but yeah I mean life is still limited I mean it's still like work I guess I because I do have my comic but maybe when this is over it'll

definitely feel like I've escaped again for a little bit it is something that I picked up on where the day kind of just slips past much fashion and I realized because I think with the nine-to-five job I was kind of counting the seconds know where it felt a little longer but at the instant when we were I shifted to working for myself I was like oh my god it's already 5:00 p.m. I hear like I I think get through half the things I wanted to do like did you find yourself in those situations like the day just completely just escaped I mean I will say that time has been flying by that's for sure but yeah it's also because I'm hoping I make more progress on my book so I think that right now has me in a mental block we're I mean this has been a year-and-a-half project so I wish I could feel more freer like I said but it

still is Shh I mean I'm not right now thinking about vacations you know taking days off really going for you know even trips around Bend it's pretty much you know unfortunately every free minute I'm like okay I got a trip back on page eleven twelve thirteen and then at the color room so when I initially moved up here though it did feel very oh my gosh I can't explain the the feeling in my body mental everything it was just such a God relief amazing just yes I'm starting a new turn in my life you know moving to a more beautiful location you know everybody says the bay area is nice because all these you know people's you know probably are nicer but when you hit the highway and you start driving you realize that's not true yeah everybody's out for themselves so um but yeah it's

been a nice slow down there relaxing I'm gonna enjoy still doing a lot of fun yard work too and whatnot to break up my time when I hang with my kids so that's yeah getting more fresh air and whatnot both of our grandparents actually just moved up so that's amazing I haven't living near my parents in like 20 years now so this is gonna be a definite another term in the chapter so it's nice having them here yeah man like talking about that because that's something I didn't really I think everybody kind of thinks about and appreciate in some way it'd be nice to have family but until you have a little little clan of your own with a kid and life where you start to be like hey man I can't get enough of hanging out with my family or close friends how was that like conversation come about because you're your parents and your wife's parents aren't originally from Oregon

they just society that was a time shift that that allowed you know to spend more time with their grand mm children well yeah my parents are from you know Tucson that's where I live for God like six seven years before I went to you know Phoenix for college and then to the Bay Area but yeah I've always whatever I've gone back to visit yeah I've always been like oh my god this is so awesome hanging out do little walks of my family you know they obviously have usually dog you know dog or something and we still don't have a woman but yeah I just see my sister's to the kids everything and it just sucks when you work in a game industry or in a studio where you're you're given just certain dates I mean you know how it is they're like no we're in crunch mode so you can't go anywhere for six months and then that crunch turns to nine months to a year the year and a half and you're

just given a few days to maybe fly back to see your family and then you realize that certain people at your company leads or producers they don't care to travel or go anywhere so they expect everybody to be at the studio you know all year round so I guess yeah I mean also leaving gave me time to just think about that and spend some time with family and now that they're coming up here that's gonna be even better you know I'm hoping my sisters or whatnot maybe follow suit in time but I'd imagine it's better than living in Phoenix it probably helps them really selling them on and I'm sure because of all the visits it was not very convincing I think like most people yeah and they come up here they're like oh my gosh what a cute town you know it's almost I don't know whether to call it a city or town but it does have that nice small city or town by yeah we get all

four seasons up here you know I mean I know enjoy the Sun down in Cali but I also enjoyed seeing some rains and snow every so often and some color in the sunsets but yeah so what you're looking at right here on the screen too is just uh one of my first toothpaste breads just showing the team originally it was just gonna be hazel I wanted to feel more like a Batman style comic where she does solo missions and you know we have unique villains and whatnot and my writer um MLS reach or Matthew likes to cow one of my old buddies he decided to you know create a team that way we could have some character development with hazel so that's how we got Swan jinx and Chloe in here and I mean there's another

growing lesson for me is I used to just draw like one character now I have to draw multiple characters and panels and everything and that just another learning experience another skill added develop you know get that composition everything so where do you as a creative person that is especially starting oh because I relate comic artists there's a lot like a like a writer right you're you're sitting there at your desk you're kind of creating this whole world and your own head and putting down on paper which requires a lot of inspiration a lot of experiences to to be able to tell a good story hazel is something that you've had in your mind for a long time what has been the main inspiration from this you were talking about a little bin fluence from Batman and in other comics that you you love but this is a story that I for as long as I've known you've

been trying to tell in kind of put it on paper where did it come from well originally I did a you know more of a kid fantasy or what is it a medieval children style book it was called dark holidays and that was you know I did get an offer from eight entertainment back in the day I don't know if they're still around I mean now I'm wishing I had them published at but back in the day I was like no this is you know too little of money for my time up and and then on it but after pitching that around it just seemed like nobody was into you know medieval fantasy even though I know people love that so I'm just assuming the editors a you know these comic companies were like now so I switched to a more futuristic just I don't want to say typical comic but I was like alright I'll do you know modern futuristic version of a comic story and god it definitely took a while to evolve

because originally hazel was a guy I felt way more comfortable drawing you know men's proportions out of whack and I feel like with women it's I mean I still don't have it nailed down I mean every body type is different you know every type stomach area just got you know the shortness and length of a body it's also different and for women it's a lot harder to make it look nicer you know I mean I don't know if I want to say sexy or just you know aesthetically pleasing but with men you can exaggerate so anyway that was a big transition I did have one of my original writers at contracting me back in the day of James and Anne s that just suggested like oh maybe you should try a female so I wound up changing her to a female and the costume obviously looked god-awful for a while and then I went through so many

changes I initially tried inking its and in the end I realized just pencil anemic coloring was gonna be the best quickest way to go but one thing I do want to show at one point is just kind of my roughs just to show people like how crappy I know if you can see like my roughs are for my pages and then once it goes from like that that's when I eventually turn it you know do an actual comic page where you know looks very well done and colored but it's you know just so everybody knows the initial stage is usually just really really rough and loose just to give me an idea this usually it works good but sometimes I do have to spend more time going back to these because as we all know pre-production is QE which drove me wild about the game industry is

pre-production when the game industry seems to be the heylet's you know goof off and do whatever the hell we want and we'll figure it out during the actual you know process but it's great to figure it out all before you actually begin that journey and try to concept that as much as you can because it makes you want to read you less work later and I think that's something that a concept artists understands a lot better than other discipline because a writer or concept artists I keep always relating these two disciplines of being very similar because you kind of have to think of a world way before anybody else does that has the full details and explanation and branches all explained before anybody comes on board and I think a lot of other disciplines kind of take that for granted where when they kind of jump on they just figure as they

go which unless yeah go ahead sorry let's jump in really fast unless you have like we talked about maybe like an art director or art lead that will allow you to actually use some of your skills and your creative abilities because I mean I'm just saying that based on my past experiences where they're like nope we're gonna get you a concept and so that's where it's like okay I wish you guys would have spent time early on figuring this out instead of having no respect or trust in your art team to maybe come up with something cool you know so sorry I just wanted to add that in there yeah I mean the pipeline gets kind of card up I think this is where the frustration comes yeah it's not normal for games to take five years plus I think if everything was executed correctly it usually takes two three years I keep using this example in CIND memory death stranding I don't know

if you kept up with that game it's too Hideo Kojima game I know you're not quite a fan but it's his new game it's the guy behind Metal Gear hopefully I'm not oh yeah oh yeah right so Metal Gear is my favorite shows but basically his last game is about to be be release is something like he were everything to because it's a it's a game that took three years from concept to production and that is just unheard of in now day times with triple-a development from the time he announced it it was still in like concept stage and it only took him three years I've been pure execution yeah I'm sorry I haven't had my subscription to Game Informer a while and like I said my head's just been in a hole like working on this comic so I have not been following the game industry and whatnot yeah but that's awesome I mean that also

kind of reminds me of another issue I just bring this up really fast is I know that when people look for concept artists nowadays they're like oh you have to draw realistically you know I want the light I want the highlights I want it to look like I'm looking at a photo almost and I love that that artist which nobody really seems to bring up is he has a very loose sketchy style comic-book style but you know it's very stylized looks fantastic and they were able to go okay we can easily take this cool comic sketch and we'll give it to a 3d modeler that'll you know make it look realistic in our video game and so I kind of get it knowing sometimes when I come across Studios where they're like now we're looking for concept but you have to know how to draw realistic or something we're not looking for the creativity for what you you know you're bringing you just have to have that skill of copying a photo almost or something so kudos to him for still you

know being in charge and God trying I'm sure he's got the right people around him that he did it in three years oh yeah well a lot of it is uh that team in particular would work together for for many years and so when they formed the new studio he brought a lot of their his senior guys and was we're ready to kind of hit the ground running which is the essential part to any game development team where you kind of know how everyone works and just need that that high fidelity visual idea to execute so oh yeah the trust yeah but now that you're like mostly solo man like Hal D miss D miss clunking hits with other people such as myself I mean how was that process for you well no

that's a great point I mean I'm one of those were you know like we worked on XCOM I thought that was hilarious when the Australia team you know they seem to come up with all the cool fun creative stuff like they had the bus remember when we had the alien goo that would take over items and maybe you get hurt to move I member one day they messed around and they made a school bus that had you know tentacles at the bottom and was riding around and it was just funny that everybody thought that was the coolest thing and then our leads and people were just like oh yeah that's don't get that out of here whatever stop it's kind of interesting you know I'm one of those where it's like if I see something just cool and fun you know you probably want to put it in like I don't understand how some people thinker work but um so for me that wasn't really a big issue you know working with other artists I have ideas or anything it was only the people that would come with a really broad statement about something

and because of that the entire fun creative concept that was just you know caught up or even modeled is just thrown out the door that's where I kind of helped miss that you know if if I if I can one day on a company and you know someone mentions you know hey let's redo these four pages because you know I don't like this building this location that's where it's like okay I need to get you out of here you know or you're no longer a lot of these meetings if our time and effort and money is you know nothing to you I guess or when it comes to statements yeah yeah I mean that's something that I think is a growing pain and I kind of remind I want to remind anybody that's watching feel free to ask questions these are just my own curiosity I'll be sure to kind of ask Colin through there to through our twitch chat or wherever you guys are watching but feedback and

critiques is something that is a balance that I don't know I think some artists and some developers have a handle on things I myself is a high now that I feel like it comes with like well let me look at your resume first alright proceed with the feedback which it which is tough because it doesn't always work like that I mean you kind of come into environment with established leads or whatever and and so you kind of have to please and pick your battles a bit well I guess I guess that's why I hate making these blanketed statements because I know there's gotta be studios out there that do do it right you know they do have the right people but God you know the ones that I worked at or you know even with you and never felt that way definitely you know felt like anybody including like I always joked the

janitor could walk in and say oh you know this level looks a little weird and they'd be like you know the producer would look at you and be like alright let's get that on the schedule redo this level you know and it's like man can we yeah so yeah but I know there's gotta be any when I look at games by you know like the curious visions or whatever um okay what's that studio out of North Carolina which game it's not epic rip it saw me and Ratchet and Clank yeah yeah I like every they put out I'm always like wow they seem to just have it together you know I from concept to finish when I see their artwork it's just and you know who knows they could have a lot of interior stuff maybe they have people that have to work over hold you know barriers to make it you know look that good so you have the confident people working out by the note you know it could just be that they have the right people and you know you and I

unfortunately had fun mixed bag and it is sack is right now I do have one of my buddies working at a studio that has someone we worked with that's now a creative director and it just boggles my mind you know it's it's one of those this person can't even you know draw doesn't have any vision can't even get his vision across and but at the studio you know I hear that the producers and everybody is always like oh well you're the man and it's just because they got a name on their resume yeah yeah no it's true it's true it's there's a lot of factors that we don't control and I think one of the reasons why we get burnout is because of that we're you and

myself included many developers out there that are listening I think at the base level are pretty straight shooters it's like either it's good it's good or either it's bad it's bad let's work together but when it gets kind of messy is when you're climbing up the ladder and this is something get you know I've stressed many times throughout the years that have been podcasting and just sharing stories where there's so many different factors that you're gonna have to making the game is one aspect but playing the game to make the game is a different layer than most people I don't have any interest in and at some point my career that was probably well I learned really quickly when we were working together that was like a crash course about welcome to game but years after it was like probably my seven year mark and I don't know if it was similar to you were my seven year mark where I was like there's a certain

level of distance that got to keep away to not affect my life because you know I was bringing home the problems you know with my family and stuff and it was really affecting my whole day oh yeah I mean yeah that's a good point because like now that I've left it's allowed me to kind of calm down and mentally you know separate myself from that because I feel like yeah I was getting no joke a little bit of PTSD whatever you want to call from it where it's just like every day you're like oh my god I can't believe you know I know that in a month this person's gonna have us redo this and the next month because that person just doesn't know what they're doing and it eats away you know because you have to spend time you know your family is like weren't coming home and you're like oh my anyways so I feel like now taking this break it's given me time to realize like hey when I do go back to the game industry if I do and I'm a model or

whatever I'm not gonna get so emotionally involved or try to worry about making you know I mean like the passion it's like unfortunately now that passion is going to be cut in half I'm gonna become more of a worker if I am with a team that I can tell is willing to use my extra you know passionate skills and I will use it but otherwise I am NOT going to worry about you know like like you said playing the game and just get my paycheck work you know do my job and because I mean we worked at studios there were people like that that must have gone through what we went through because they literally put their foot down and they were like no even though we're in crunch I am one of the six people out of a hundred that's going home at five o'clock today and you know because I have a kid mm-hm and everybody else that doesn't have a kid hey you're screwed or even if you do but you're you know not going to push

back with you know higher-ups and hey pretty much screwed just working but um yeah so I feel like when I go back I will be like I said a lot more at peace with just the situation and where I'm at and hopefully got you go to of that era you [Music]