Being A Solo Dev Is Horrifying — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 003

All right, we are we are recording. Um, my name is Thomas Brush, guys. Most of you know that, but I make indie games for a living, and so does my buddy Bobby. Uh, Bobby, how you doing, man? You want to give us a quick intro of who you are, what you do. Hey there, Thomas. Thank you for inviting me to this podcast. I'm Bobby. I'm a full-time indie game developer, uh, the sole developer of Mirror Forge. I'm coming from Europe. I'm 30 years old. Uh and um I also worked as a 3D artist, freelance artist, digital marketeer, which are basically a skills that helped me to get here to being a full-time indie game developer. Awesome. That is definitely true for me as well in terms of like marketing like if I hadn't I was in marketing probably for three years before I did, you know, my own studio. And uh if I hadn't done that, I it would have been really hard to do what I'm doing now cuz half of my half of what I do is just marketing, right? I mean, I don't know about you, but Yeah, definitely. I agree because um as

far as I've seen from my experiences, uh besides game development, any other product you have in the world nowadays, uh you essentially require marketing. So, in order to to be seen by your customers and so on. And uh the same like you I also was like 3 years uh in companies doing digital marketing, SEO, content writing, email marketing and so on. And currently now I'm like 50% of the time doing the development of the game and the other 50% I'm doing the marketing. Yep, man. That's that's the way it goes. And guys, we're going to talk all about that. This is going to be a really really fun conversation. I told Bobby before we started this podcast, I was like, we're not going to have a problem having a conversation because he and I seem to connect. Um, and we probably also share a lot of similarities. So, we're just going to chat and we're going to talk about how he became a full-time game developer. That's what you guys want to know. Most of you, I think, want to know how the heck do you make a full-time living making indie games from your bedroom. Um, and so we're going to talk about that in this podcast. Bobby,

I'm going to run a quick intro really quickly and then I'll see you on the other side. Okay. Sure thing. [Music] By the way, guys, feel free to download my free 2D game kit below. It's totally free. It's my treat to you. I used this exact 2D game kit to make a game for PewDiePie in 14 days, and then I got to play it in front of his subscribers, which was really awesome. Um, so download that, use it however you want. It's my treat to you. Yeah. Okay. So, I'm looking at your game. Um, tell us a little bit about this game. It's freaking gorgeous. I'm honestly pretty jealous because I'm making a first-person shooter and it doesn't look like this. So, tell me a little bit about your studio and your game. Thank you, man. I mean, don't be jealous. You don't get these eye bags like I have like from working like on

smaller games. So, when I started working on M for I'm like working 18 to 20 hours. Even my friends uh started calling me workaholic basically. But hey, this is what I love to do, man. So, so yeah, Mirror Forge is um a first person psychological in a way survival horror game. Um on the Steam page, it says that it's Silent Hill and Stranger Things inspired, but mainly that's the aesthetic. Uh the story is completely different. So, when I started this game, uh this is my second like commercial game. Uh so, when I started this game, I took a little bit different approach in the first game. So the first thing uh I did when I uh thought about this game was the marketing. So uh what do I mean by that? I started doing research whether there are similar games, whether that is required on the market. Did several surveys with players in over a 100 Facebook groups. I asked them what would you like to see in a horror game. um did some research on some unique content for the story line because I

would I would love to be called storyteller not like developer artist. I love to tell the same way. Yeah. And um when I was doing the research for the horror of the game um I took a look like at the other games and movies and books and mainly nowadays I've noticed that a lot of horror games and movies and books have like uh either religious themes or they have like from Egypt or with Greek gods. And I wanted to have something completely different like something I might say realistic and Lovecraftian in a way. Uh because Locraft has this fear of the unknown and and stuff. Yeah. So I found on Google the Mesopotamian myths from the Sumerian civilization. I had no idea what that was and I did some digging and it turns out that it's the first civilization that ever popped up like in history. And they had these gods, these myths, the Anunnaki they're called. And these were like basically these are like conspiracy theories, but

I found them interesting for my game. like these are like uh they're also in the myths but they consider maybe aliens or something. So I said yeah this could be cool for my game. So that's how I started Mirror Forge. Basically doing uh research doing marketing uh research uh check for the SEO for example Mirror Forge was chosen by the community. I I had no name for my game and I uh did like some research on Google checked whether these names are available and if I write them on Google will they pop up on the first page. So, Mirror Forge was one of those names that was popping up first. I mean, there were no other results. So, I knew that if I use this name, it would be great and the community chose exactly that. And that's how I mean, I started like Mirror Forge. That is such a bizarre and genius way to come up with a game, you know? It's like I guess I mean, you're a I mean, you're a marketer. I mean, you you told me that you're into marketing uh at the beginning of this call, and that's that's a marketing tactic, which is I mean, correct me if I'm wrong

here. What you're saying is the community decided what the game was going to be, and they decided what the name was going to be, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, that's just brilliant. It's so smart. And the reason it's smart is because that audience is going to feel like it's their game and they're going to buy it, right? Yeah. That's the idea. I mean, they're engaging with the game. Even u at the moment uh I think I mean it's not not a secret but for the full game I have like these moments frozen in time and these are like uh figures of light of pe various people. So when something exploded I don't want to spoil too much when something exploded they got caught in space and time and I asked every single streamer to do a single line to to voice act like every single frozen moment in the game and this will be Steam achievements. So there are like currently so far there are like uh 30 streamers who voice acted besides the main actors of course. Hey, what's the biggest streamer you got? Uh so there was CG. He was he's doing

horror games. How many subs? Oh, I haven't checked honestly. I haven't. Surely you know like that's that's like your uh claim to fame. You get to say like this guy has 20 million subscribers and played my game. Yeah. Usually when I when I uh reach out to influencers, to streamers, I just do an Excel sheet or a Google doc sheet. And even for my first game, I uh reached out like uh to 400 and something uh content creators and streamers. And I was focusing on content creators who are playing games quite similar to mine, not just horror, basically first person horror, who love like maybe walking simulators in a way, maybe Outlast style horrors, so not shooters. So yeah, I did the research. I found those email addresses basically searching them on social media, searching their YouTube channel, checking them, checking like everywhere for their personal email address and to every single one of them I sent like an email uh introducing myself, telling a bit about the game and

of course a clickbait title. Man, that's brilliant. You're doing everything right. It's so it's I get a big grin on my face when g indie game developers are basically they're operating like a publisher. Um because publishers are doing all this grunt work. Like they should be doing all this grunt work. When you said 300 email addresses I was like this guy knows what he's doing because most indie game developers will be like well I sent 20 emails. And it's like well you're maybe 1% will respond. So if you want 1% you need to send 300 emails, right? I mean what was your response rate? Do do you have any idea of like not necessarily response rate but like you said 30 was it 30 streamers? Uh there were 400 streamers. There's 400 streamers sent uh I sent emails to 400. How many responded and said yes? Um, surprisingly there were over 50% who responded and I also sent 200 other

emails to uh personal mails of uh how do I say it of uh portals of uh journalists and so on and uh during the Steam next festival uh where the demo of Mirror Forge was uh a month later maybe 100 portals published Mirror Forge. So that was like a huge success. I didn't even You're killing it. Like I'm I'm so happy for you. So, uh I really want to know. I mean, I'm I'm sort of like anxious to know. How did you go full-time with this? Um is it done? Is it done yet? Yeah, I'm a full-time game developer at the moment. Uh the game uh is planned to be released like in September, September 30th. Okay. So, now I signed a deal with a publisher, Dread XP, and they they're going to publish the game. Spell Say that again. Say that publisher one more time. Who is that? The publisher is Dread XP. Dread XP. I've never heard of them. Are they uh a smaller publisher, big publisher that I just haven't heard of? Uh actually they are sister company of Dread Central in Hollywood. So they're

doing like uh they're publishing horror games, horror movies, horror news and so on. There's another game like coming out from them, the Morty Assistant. Probably you've heard about it. So there are several games which are coming out but I think as a publisher they they they came out like last year so they're pretty new but they they know what they're doing and uh when I spoke with them about the game and so on they already know what horror means like in games and how should they promote it and they have quite a big like audience so I thought it would be a great opportunity to work with them. Yeah, I've got them pulled up on screen right now. I don't know if you mind uh but I'm sort of want to show the audience the publisher. Um I I'm a big fan of publishers who are focused on a specific genre. Um the reason why and you could speak to this most likely better than me. The reason why is because they know they they have the contacts who know how to

sell these games, right? So, it's like who who do I reach out to at Xbox uh for a Game Pass deal? Uh who there who knows the horror market and who knows when they want to sell horror games with Game Pass, right? Um that's that's really really important. Now, there are publishers out there who do all of it, right? I'm not sure, maybe you could, you'd know better than me probably, but I feel like maybe like Tiny Build or Devolver, they kind of just they feel a little random right now. Um, but Dread XP generally what I'm looking at is horror, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, so regarding the the publishers, I received like six or seven emails from different publishers and, uh, you need to be very careful. I mean uh what I will speak about the publishers now basically I've learned from you Thomas I'm listening to your videos and so on. Uh I was very careful with the publishers. I did detailed research on every single publisher that

contacted me and I I I wanted to find a publisher that really understood my game, really understood my audience. So that's how I ended up with Dread XP and not the other publishers. So that was the main reason. uh even even with beginners and game developers who listen to this podcast. They need to be very careful when reaching out to publisher. Uh publisher is a great opportunity can provide you funding. It can help you like to find uh other uh members who who will help you with development and so on. But be very careful whether the that publisher sees you as uh another item in their collection or they see this game like yeah this is the next thing that we need. So that that was the the main reason why I chose Dread XP basically. Okay. So clarify there. Okay. I'm trying to I I think I know what you're saying, but I want to make sure my audience fully understands this. What does it mean to be another item on a publishers's list? What why is that a bad thing? And what should it be alternatively? So when I was doing the research for the publishers, I found out several

publishers who have different games in different genres and they were like when I asked around like on forums with other game developers, I realized that that several of these publishers were just asking for games to come in their collection and I felt like they will not focus enough of their time on my game so my game gets what what it deserves and reach out the right audience. And that's why I needed to find a publisher who understands like in my case the horror genre, the horror audience. So I I looked for something very specific and that's how I ended up with Dread XP. The moment they reached out to me, I checked their portfolio. I saw that they they have like horror games. They have horror audiences. They had a lot of followers and people who are commenting. Again, be careful with the followers on social media because some of these followers might be fake. So, you're going to have to check the comments, see whether they are engaging with the publisher. So, that's how I ended up with Dread XP. Basically, I was looking for a publisher that will publish a horror game and

knows the audience and what that audience likes. Okay, let me get your advice here. Um, so how does how does my audience know? How do I know when I'm just another item on a publishers's list? Okay, so just for clarity, if my audience doesn't understand what that means, it means that a publisher is publishing 20 games and it they're really looking for that one game that makes them $20 million. And the moment they get that game and your game is underperforming, they don't really push it. They don't really they'll they'll they'll do sale events, but it's not like they're they're going to prioritize that game's marketing. That's what I think of when I think of you're just on their list. You're just another item on their list. How do you know that that's not going to happen to you? How do you know that they're going to consider you and actually treat you like a person as

opposed to an item on a list? Well, that will mostly depend like from the experience of the other developers that work with them. So, I reached out to to most of them, talked with them, asked about it about the experience. Then I analyzed like uh their comments and replies with uh the the uh the members in their social in their uh social profiles. I saw how they replied uh what these people like uh whether they like horror and so on in my case. So in in a way if if the publisher is like uh one who is ambitious and when he reaches out to you he tells you his plan and you see the agreement and basically in uh it's my first time happening to to get an agreement from a publisher where I like 100% of it. So I liked everything in that deal. Uh and it was thoroughly covered like for marketing for finances and so on. So, uh, you need to check like basically everything before signing up anything with publisher. Okay, so that makes I that's such good

advice, which is reach out to the developers who are working with that publisher. Um, here's an even better signal that your publisher is going to treat you right if they tell you to do that. If they say, "Okay, you don't trust us. Reach out to our developers." And I do that when I'm when I'm talking to a publisher. I go reach out to my previous publishers and ask them how I am to work with. And that's a really good signal if your publisher well if they have a good track record, they'll be honest about it and say, "We have a good track record. Feel free to ask." Um, and both of the publishers I'm talking to, well, there's several, but a handful, but both of them that I'm the handful of them that I'm talking to now have asked that question to me. They're like, "Do you want to reach out to the other developers? Here's their email addresses." Um, so that's that's super helpful. Now, I do have a question for you. Um, you said when they sent you an agreement. Um, really quick, I want to clarify for my

audience who's curious. The way you go full-time with a publisher is they send you money. All right. So, I'm assuming that's what's happening with you. You're making some money from the publisher. Um, correct? Yeah, definitely. Okay. So my question to you is you said, "Well, you know, I I saw their agreement and it was just great and I didn't even have any questions. I just I loved the agreement." Can you give us You don't have to give us the details. I know I would definitely not want to do that to Dread XP. But what's a good deal? For me a good deal was uh when before I received the dread XP I I required first lab grant some funding so that I know that I will have at least uh to cover like a year and a half of my development time. So not to not do any other job and just focus on game development. And also in the deal, I wanted to have like uh uh localization on a dozen most popular languages on Steam. Uh uh like covering for uh voice acting. Then um uh QA teams

also in that deal. Uh what was else? Let me just check. I'm not really sure what I can say and what I can't say. So I know I know I can pro I I generally know what you shouldn't say. So I'll tell you if you're like whoa, don't say that. It's usually about the numbers specifically, but yeah, uh console, they're going to cover console. Covering console, and I put covering in quotes here because they're going to recoup that cost. Yeah. With your games, right? Yeah. And I know this uh so I can speak to to it for for me personally. And I haven't signed a deal yet. So for any of my games that I'm working on, but I can say what I'm looking for is I'm looking for an 8020 recoup. Minimum 8020. And I didn't know about this until recently, but an 8020 recoup would be something like you get 20% of the revenue regardless of if they've recouped their advance to you, their marketing, any of their fees that they've specified

in the contract. You get 20% right out of the gate after you launch your game. That's ideal. I I've signed deals in the past where it's 100% recoup. So, I'm not making any money for months until they recoup that cost. Um the second thing to to take note is um advanced payments. So a lot of a lot of publishers will do like a salary. They'll pay you monthly. Um that is great. It's just it feels like employment. It's literally for me it's just this icky feeling of employment. So what I try and negotiate for is either milestone payments which like small like two or three milestones or money upfront. Now, really quick side note for everybody who's curious. Do you want the money up front? Like most of you would probably raise your hand say, "Yeah, give me the money up front." Careful because if you don't use up that cash for business expenses by the end of the year, you're going to have to pay taxes on it. So by the next by January 1st, you're going to owe 30% of

whatever's left over in taxes. So it's good to be it's good to consider taxes. So, so those milestone payments are actually really, really helpful, but those are paid out after you sign a contract before you launch the game. Correct. So, my question to you is, is there anything about working with publishers that you want um my audience to be aware of? Not necessarily your publisher, but what are you nervous about with publishers? What kind of keeps you awake at night or would would keep you awake at night if you had signed a bad deal? Well, uh like I mentioned previously, uh there are all sorts of deals and uh even when you sign a deal with a publisher, you know that there will be deadlines. So, previously when I worked on previous games, I was like, "Yeah, I will take I will take some time, maybe take a take a break, but now you have deadlines and you you got to finish the game. They're paying the money. You got to finish the game." So, that's the hardest part. And sometimes has been know especially if you're a solo developer sometimes bugs

may occur issues and so on and you you get this stress that you have to get some things some builds probably by certain date so I'm not speaking only about the release date basically a publisher might tell you like by the end of next month I want to have a playable build like uh from this to this level and you need to go through like everything fix everything have it ready and sometimes it can be tough For example, at the moment I'm working like 16 to 18 hours because I have a deadline and I need to cover a lot of stuff. There are like four and a half hours of gameplay so far and I need to cover everything and see whether for example the levels are loading whether there are any issues and so on. Yeah, that's the hardest part. But uh on the contrary to what many indie developers think working with publisher is amazing. So do not be afraid to work with with a publisher. Just be careful. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree and I think I think the fail safe is talk to the developers. Talk to the developers that they're currently working with and

you'll know you'll know if they're worth it. Um, man, that's great. So, tell us a little bit about your production of this game. So, it sounds like you're the only person working on this game. Uh, yeah, I started working on it alone and like I mentioned, the only difference was um now I looked at it as a as a product. I didn't see it like this is my passion. This is my baby. I I see it as a product. It's not a game that I make for myself. I make for my target audience and what they love, what they like. Um, as opposed to my first game. Um, I think previously, sorry, uh, Thomas, you asked me like how did I become a full-time game developer. So, I'm going to tie that story to this one. Go for it. Go for it. Uh, so, uh, like eight years ago, I was a freelance 3D artist and I got like some clients over the internet, started working and learning 3D. I was working as a digital marketer in a company and then then we got with another developer uh to work on a game. It was also a horror game and this game I call uh my most successful failure. I will go uh a little bit into detail why I call it

like that. So my most successful failure is because the game was good. It was quite successful. We had a good story on launch day. We had like $11,000. That's launch day. And throughout the year he provided enough income for me like to cover all my expenses like four years after that. But the thing is um we had different mindsets with the other developer and that's the main reason like it's a scar in my past like that now I'm like uh very wary whether should I work with someone or not and that's why I went so deaf. Uh my idea was when I started game development I wanted to be an entrepreneur. So I wanted to do entrepreneurial stuff. I wanted to work what I love, do game development. I also did like when I when we got like some of the money uh I invested in shares uh just to have a backup plan and we had a lot of disagreements with the other developer and the game released only chapter one. So it provided enough income. It was

great but we never finished the game and then the studio split and I went on as a solo death but uh listening to a lot of amazing people like I don't know Robert Kiyosaki we have Arnold Schwarzenegger we have Tony Robbins we have Thomas Brush uh listening to to all of you guys listening to your advices uh what you say about entrepreneurship and game development I said I'm going to go full with it I I don't care what anyone else thinks. say no to the naysayers. Just uh learn everything. Don't be afraid. You're going to make it. And that's how I went. Like I started I took several marketing courses again. Took courses in programming and that's how I started Murforge basically. But Bobby, can you tell me really quick um what what the name of the game was that you only released one episode for? Uh it was called Alen Sharp. It's on Say that one more time. Uh it's called Alan Sharp. Allen Sharp. Yeah. Yeah. That's That's the first game

I It was under Mystic Studios. I mean, you can see my name. Oh, there it is. Okay, I found it on YouTube. Can I show it? Um, sure. Sure. I mean, I love how you were hesitant like maybe not. Yeah. Uh, the reason for this game, uh, you know what? What's the main reason why I don't want to show this game? Um, I worked on this game for six years and I worked hard but not smart. And that's the main problem. Every single thing you see in the game, like every model, every texture, everything I did by myself. I was like, "Nope, I'm going to stay away from marketplace. I'm going to stay from a bot assets. I'm just going to do everything myself." And that was my biggest mistake. I mean, it covered me like, like I mentioned, for three to four years, but I spent six years before like working every day on that game. And that's not something you want to do. I mean, if you're looking at it as a business. Correct. Very, very, very true. Um, I mean, I'm looking at this now. It looks great. Um, now that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good game, but it looks

great. I'm I'm pretty impressed, man. Pretty cool. Thank you, man. Yeah. So, yeah, you you just decided to work smarter. Now, the question is, what does that mean? What is working smarter? For me, working smarter was to change your mindset. That that's what helped me the most. Like, think like an entrepreneur. Plan your time, time management, money management. If you don't have the time to do some stuff, you can always hire some freelancer uh some other people who can help you with the project. Uh you can uh do not be afraid to use bot assets, but always be careful like whether they fit in your aesthetics of the game. You might do some tweaks in the textures or maybe the models and so on, but don't do everything by yourself. That's like a that's very hard and it's honestly for me it wasn't worth it. Okay. What are you using for management? Um, are you using any software for managing your project? Uh, I'm using Trello at the moment

because what is that? Say that again. Uh, that's Trello. Trello. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Trello is great. It's kind of ugly though. Um, it's not like the prettiest UI, I think, personally. So, we're looking at I think it's called ClickUp. ClickUp is is uh it's kind of like monday.com. It looks a lot like Monday. Um but dude, you're totally right. You're totally right about project management and money management. Um I'm reading a book right now called Profit First, and the first chapter just sort of outlines this story from the author. He had a multi-million dollar he sold multi-million dollar businesses. Um he built them and then would sell them. And basically he calls, this is so true with gamedev. He he calls his business a Frankenstein. Um basically it's a monster that you're creating and it's really exciting at first and you're just impressed. You're like, "Wow, it's alive." Like this is crazy. It's alive. But then suddenly you realize it's a

monster. It's a monster and it's eating up my cash. That's that's what I've noticed lately is like cash just gets eaten up so fast when you're especially when you're like at the tail end of production and you're just trying to get stuff done. And so you're totally right. You've got to be careful. You got to be very very careful. You've got to have a bird's eyee view of all of these um team members, of your freelancers, of your budget, of the money you're spending. It's tough. It's really tough. Yeah, I agree. Um, so that's why I said like I I I needed some plan B just in case. So like when we got like all the funding from the first game and uh I wasn't much of a person going out and spending too much money like previously and so I tried to pile up some cash to to become a full-time game developer. So I instead of like buying some expensive stuff, I don't know there there were some people for example when they get

their money and they're going to buy a jeep or I don't know a motorcycle, I decided like to I'm going to ask several people about investing in shares and so on. So like for a yearly dividend. So I'm going to do that just to have a backup plan to have the monthly income so I can continue working game development doing what I love. Yep. Well, that is some some wise wise advice. So, the next question is I I love asking this question. This is the last question for the podcast. I want to know how it feels. How does it feel to be a full-time game developer? Um, was this is this a dream come true? Were you planning on this? Are you stressed? Are you happy? Do you feel free? Do you feel imprisoned? How's it feel? It's definitely a dream come true because five years ago, I'm going to be completely honest. Is that okay? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Uh, five years ago or maybe four, not

really sure. When I listen to your podcast and your videos, Thomas, I said like, "This guy knows what he's doing. This guy u knows how to do games, knows how to do game business, and I'm going to listen, and hopefully I will become a full-time game dev one day." And since last year when I when I became a game dev and there was this day when I wake up, I'm not at work. I need to start like doing something creative, something that I love that fulfills me. And luckily, even my girlfriend and my friends, they all support me like with this dream. I mean, it's basically a dream come true. I can't say anything else. Yeah, it can be stressful. I'm working more than like than before. Before I worked like eight hours, now I'm working like 16 hours. But uh I'm doing what I love and I never never feel tired when I finish like a game development for the day. Yeah, I feel the same way. It's so funny. I I think I was talking to my brother and I said I would rather go down on a sinking ship as the captain

than go down on a sinking then than be successful and get to my destination with another captain. I, oddly enough, I feel more at peace on my own boat and going in my own destination, even if it's going to crash and burn. I don't know. And I think that's just an innate entrepreneurial like it's in my DNA. Do you feel that way? Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That's the entrepreneurial mindset. Yeah, it totally is. I It's a Guys, let us know in the comments below if you feel that way. Would you ra It's a fun little would you rather. Would you rather be your own boss and crash and burn or would you rather work with a successful boss? Um I think that's a really good a really good question uh to to wrap up the podcast for sure. Is Bobby is there anything else you want to talk about? Anything else you want to leave with the audience? I think we've covered everything. Uh I will just say like one more quote for everyone who

starts in the game development. Uh I think I've heard this quote from Arnold Schwarzenegger. It was everything's impossible until someone does it. But in fact, it was said by Bruce Wayne, the Batman. But it's true. Everything's impossible until someone does it. So do not be afraid to take those steps and always learn. Yeah. And even better, even better. It's clearly not impossible because people like you and me are are doing it. Um, and I was telling you before we started recording the podcast, and I like to be honest with my audience, a lot of times guys, I feel like a fraud and I feel like uh I'm leading people astray. Um, sometimes I wonder how like Tony Robbins, and I'm not comparing myself to Tony Robbins, but sometimes I wonder how does he struggle with like, yeah, like I'm I'm inspiring like all these people, but only 10% will succeed. Um, and I feel guilty a lot. Like I'm like, man, you know, I don't want to inspire people because some it like game dev's not for everybody. It's really hard and a lot of people will go down on

that sinking ship. They will go down and I know that, but it's so fun hearing you um your story because it's it doesn't feel impossible and and it it reminds me that it's totally possible. Like a lot of my subscribers are full-time game developers. Um, so it's just I Yeah, it's just encouraging to talk to you, Bobby. Um, so yeah, that's I think that's gonna wrap up the podcast. What do you think? Sure thing. Thank you for your time, Thomas. Thank you for for inviting me here. Yeah, Bobby, no problem. Guys, be sure to click the links below to check out Bobby's game. Bobby, do you have a YouTube channel you want me to share, too, or? Uh, yeah, I have a YouTube channel, though I do not post much. Uh, most of my devlogs currently go on on Red XP's YouTube channel. Absolutely. Okay. Okay. Well, I'll there's links below, guys. Bobby, give me those links after this call. Uh there's there's links below to support Bobby. Um and uh

be sure to subscribe, guys. Leave a like. Download that free 2D game kit below. And uh yeah, Bobby, dude, it's fun chatting, man. Thank you again. Have a great time. All right.