How He Sold 100,000 Copies of His Games… Completely Alone (w/ Michael Cosio) — Ep 65

You know that feeling when you start a solo indie game project and you're super excited um and then suddenly you watch days turn into weeks and then weeks [music] into months and then months turn into years and you're not done with it yet and you ultimately just burn out and you quit, right? And you never actually finish anything. Well, I've actually been there too many times. In fact, I typically spend five full years grinding on a single game before it ever sees the light of day on Steam. And the truth is, you [music] don't need years. You don't need piles of cash. You don't need a huge team to build your dream game and actually ship it on Steam. There's actually one simple trick that can explode your productivity. What's the trick to getting a game done quickly?
I don't know. I I guess I I mean I I guess the easiest [music] thing would would be like just
This hint is from my guest Michael Casio, and he used this exact trick to pump out five commercial indie titles. each one built in under a year completely alone. And now he earns a comfortable full-time salary as a solo

indie game dev. You've probably seen his retro grindhouse horror hits, Suffer the Night, Terret Oakart, [music] Fleshade Fear, plus his upcoming narrative banger, the skin stapler. I love [music] this game. I just played the demo. But here's what really blew me away. He makes some of the most disturbing games on Steam. but he turned out to be one of the most downto-earth, kind, and brutally honest developers [music] I've ever spoken to. If you're tired of starting games, burning out, never finishing them, I want to challenge you to listen to this entire podcast. It really will change your entire perspective [music] on GameDev. I'm recording now, but I wanted to let you know I love your vibe. [laughter]
Thanks, man.
I love that, too. It's It's great. you you're one of those game developers who you look exactly how I would expect you to look [laughter]
after right
it's not that you looked gr it's not that you look grindhouse it looks it looks like you listen to the music I think you listen to
Oh yeah definitely

yeah [laughter]
well that's that's really my first question for you is if you if you weren't a game developer
what career would you jump into if you could just snap your fingers I mean, before I I got my my uh degree in uh programming and stuff, I was a musician. [music] So, I mean, that's what that's what I always wanted to be, you know, but it's so hard to make a living as a musician these days, you know. So, it's not not really feasible unless like you get extremely lucky or something like that, you know. Well, that's the thing is I was I was thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about and I was thinking I I want to talk to him about alternate careers because when I play your games today I was playing Skin Stapler
and honestly dude it's a 10 out of 10. [clears throat] Thank you.
It really is. It's great. Um, and uh I was thinking if if if you were in an alternate

career, I wonder if you'd want to make films or or do music or something because
it's it's a game for sure, but it's
it's not really a game necessarily.
Right. Right. It's like a narrative story.
Yeah. Exactly.
And it got me thinking how it's almost like I'm curious what you think about this. It's almost like game development is like the last art form that the barrier of entry is kind of low and like you can actually get into and start making money.
And um that's because like if like if you wanted to make movies or get into music
um or write a book, it just seems like that's such a harder path,
right? Right.
Than game development. Do you have any thoughts on that?
No, I totally agree. I think just like because like uh you know how everything is just like so easy to get these days like when as far as movies you can find sites and where it's streaming for free. Same thing with music and everything like that. It's so harder to like

monetize things like that these days. But with um you know like video games, you know, you can still it's still much harder for people to like I mean technically people can still like rip a game and and play it you know directly from their computer as opposed to like Steam or something like that, you know, but it's much harder. Most people don't know how to do stuff like that. So, um, yeah, I would totally agree that like, uh, it's it's definitely a lot easier to to monetize like video games than it is other forms of media these days, just because everything is just so easy to get a hold of.
I know.
You know, uh, not directly from the creator and stuff like that.
Exactly. So, let's talk about your uh I'm going to jump right into your business model because um, and maybe you don't think about it as a business model. I don't know how you think about it, but it seems like it seems like you you have a very distinct style and brand and you don't veer from that. You don't go in any other directions. Can you tell

me a little bit about that? Is that true? Yeah, I mean I think the aesthetics of my games change because like uh like like some games will have like highfidelity kind of like modern looking graphics with like PBR textures and stuff like that and like high-res models and stuff. Um, and then I I did like a pixel art game too. And then of course like these my last two games have been like uh PlayStation one kind of style. But like the themes and uh the storytelling is definitely like rooted in a very specific genre that I love, which is like slasher horror, you know, '8s
like 90s style horror cuz that's what I grew up with. That's what I love. And it's just like I don't know. It's just so much fun for me to make, you know, and if I'm going to spend so much time of my life making something, you know, I might as well make something that I'm passionate about, right? As opposed to just trying to make something necessarily I think is going to be a a big money maker or something like that where my main focus is like how much like what kind of game can I make that's going to make me the most money the

fastest possible, you know? I I understand that. Um, and I've been lucky enough to like get to a point where my games have been making me enough money to make a like comfortable living off of, right? But like I'm not trying to chase like uh the the quick get get quick rich kind of like way of game development, you know. I rather tell stories that I want to tell and do things that I want to do and still make it profitable and still have like uh hopefully an audience for it, you know, which I think um I've been lucky enough to to build an audience through the amount of games I've released. So,
do you have to one of the things that the audience listening right now, what they're really interested in is they're they're thinking how how do I
make this a job and right and they they kind of want to have you ever made it, by the way, have you ever made a game on the side as a hobby and tried to finish it?
Um, not like a full-fledged game. Maybe like little like prototypes and concepts and stuff like that. you know,

if you had to make a game on the side, would it be hard for you to do
if I was focusing like on another project at the time?
Yeah. Or like you had a job or something, you know?
Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, definitely. Um, [laughter] for sure.
Just because like the the just like the way that I make games is like, you know, I'm like all in, you know? You know, so the idea of having to go work like a 9 to5 and then try to fit in like a few hours here and there.
Yeah.
I think would drive me crazy to be honest.
So, the the big question here I have about publishers is Do you have to rely on funding from publishers?
Generally speaking, I don't really ask for too much money up front. I ask for like a signing bonus pretty much, you know, and then I tell them I I tell them to use use all the money that you would give me for marketing, you know, to get like on Steam events or send me to like in person showcases and stuff like that. Like next uh [music] next month hopefully if everything goes according to plan, I'll be uh in Vegas for the level up showcase. which should be really cool.

So, Tainted Pact, which is your studio, that's just you, right?
Yes.
Okay. So, let's let's break this down. And it's related to your business model. Do you make games economically, [snorts] meaning it they're not that expensive to create?
I think so. Yeah. I try to keep my budgets between like 5 to 10,000 per game.
Um, within that scope. Yeah,
that's tiny. 5 to10. Well, let's talk about your salary, though. You don't have to tell me the numbers, but like that's part is you're going to also pay yourself, right? And living expenses.
Well, yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't I don't take that into account. I'm talking about just as far as money that goes directly to getting like uh stuff made like key art or like if I sometimes I outsource 3D models because like I'm trying to move I'm trying to move away from uh using um like assets. I mean, I I still use assets because like it's crazy to to be like, "Oh, yeah. I'm

going to model and make every little table and chair and everything." So, I still use assets for small things, but like key props or like character models. I want those all to be unique to my game, you know? I don't want my monster to be some store-bought monster that's on like the, you know, Fab store or something like that. I don't want my character models for my my characters in my games to be like uh Metahumans or something like that, you know? I want them to well if they are metahumans I want them to be like custom metahumans or something like that you know not the stuff that you can just get out of the box.
So that's that's totally true and I' I found that for my my own game as well I I focused heavily on paying somebody. His name is Bin Morrison Elliot.
He's a very talented uh humanoid artist. He does you know the humanoid stuff. But what he would do is he would take the the fabs or whatever you call them, you know, he he would get one from like let's say Real Illusions storefront and then he would take the base model and he would he would sculpt them using ZBrush

and edit them and make them look stylish, right?
Yeah.
Um and I found that I think probably I spent
had to have been like $15,000
and which it for what he delivered wasn't a ton of money. um for for Twisted Tower, right? Like all those models, I mean, they're like like a higher fidelity and they look great. I mean that was to get those kind of models within that kind of budgets. Really really good. Really really good.
Yeah. So I found that really really valuable. And I was I was streaming a game yesterday from one of my followers and the game was awesome. It was so good. And then a character finally shows up and it's like a classic like skimpy anime, you know, model that was probably 20 bucks and it just completely ruined the whole tone of the game.
Yeah.
You know, it just felt it felt cheap.
And so when it comes to the artwork that you're using in your game, cuz I'm I'm

playing Skin Stapler,
everything felt handmade, but you're saying that it wasn't. Well, in the sense that like some of the models were uh retextured, you know, like I don't use anything like straight out of the box rarely nowadays. Like if I use like a 3D model, I'll I'll take it into like um Substance Painter real fast and then I'll just make a custom texture for it, you know, just so that it's more unique to my game, you know? But I do a lot of I do a lot of 3D modeling myself, but like I'm more of like a hard surface guy. like I'm not really super good at like organic stuff like character modeling or a monster creation stuff like that. So, um but yeah, like I try to make all my assets if I do use assets, which I, you know, I don't really use too many, but I do like I said, like I'm not going to use I'm not going to make every chair and table and stuff like that, you know? Yeah. So, like, uh if I do use stuff, I just try to retexture it so that it looks more unique to my game or remodel it or adjust it and something like that in Maya. How do you how do you achieve

the lowfidelity look? Let's shift gears here and talk about the lowfidelity [snorts] grindhouse PSX look. What is what is the trick there?
So, uh obviously like using like a like a lower texture resolution. I try not to push anything past like 512 x 512 unless I'm using like an atlas that has like a bunch of models. Then I'll use like, you know, 1024 x 1024 or something like that. Um and then obviously like lower poly counts for you know a distinct look. And then like um in engine I use a lot which reduces the uh the color palette to a very specific palette that I like to use um which really kind of like pushes like the gradients of the colors
uh way back so that like the blacks like hit you like you go into black much quicker than you would like uh if you had like a nice you know gradient into like a like I don't know how to say it

but like a the color palette is smaller.
[laughter]
So, gives it it gives it like a more distinct look from like, you know, like the '9s.
Um, is this a is it a post-processing filter that is applied to it or
it's it's not a filter. It's like its own channel built into the post-processor like volume, you know, like you would have uh post-processing materials and then like the L is a very specific channel that is separate from that that you can drop in. That's like a It's like a Photoshop file
um where you kind of just lay out the color palette you want and then you you drop that in there and then it'll reduce all the colors to that specific palette, you know,
and then you can add post post-processing effects on top of that.
Yeah. Okay.
Which I do I use a couple of those, but I push them way back because like I'm not really about the whole like VHS filters and stuff like that. Um I like a little bit of graininess.
Yep.
But not a lot. just just a just like a a hair just to give it a little bit of the

stylization, you know? I don't really I really don't like having like an overused VHS filter or like a um noise filter or something like that that's really going to
like uh make the game look kind of like a like, you know, you're watching it on really bad bit rate or something like that.
I know. [laughter] I was um I was driving about an hour ago thinking about how what I wanted to talk to you about and that was one thing that I wanted to ask you.
Oh, really?
Yes.
Because I posted about this on Twitter and I said it's I said what did I say? I said it's I think it's time for everybody to stop using VHS filters for their PSX style games.
Right. Right. because it has an Instagram filter vi like a 2009 Instagram filter vibe to it.
Mhm.
It's it's it's trying to mimic the PlayStation aesthetic without without doing it correctly.
Mhm.
Um

is that kind of how you feel about it?
Yeah. I mean, like, uh, if you're going to have a bunch of high poly models and like uh, high-res textures and then just like throw like a pixelation effect or VHS filter on top of that, then yeah, that's just like a lazy way of doing it, you know?
Yeah.
But I look at it as a tool in the toolbox to get that aesthetic. But you also need to do the footwork of making the actual models and textures match that aesthetic as well, you know. And then you can bring in a little bit of post-processing filters to kind of like heighten the look a little bit. But even then, like I still don't think you should overdo it or have or if you're if you're going to have it, you know, at least have the option to turn it off.
Yeah.
Right. For players who because there's a lot of people who like distinctly don't like those filters. Yeah. you know, it gives them like a headache and stuff like that. So, if you have that on the whole game and there's no way to turn it off, then that's instantly going to like turn off a lot of people, I think, personally.

Well, speaking of turning people off, um your your whole aesthetic, the tone of your games is it's it is nauseating and it's [laughter] it is supposed to be and I love it so much. I love your sense of humor. Um,
thank you.
The sequences where they're eating the hot dogs.
Ah, yeah.
Is so funny to me. [laughter]
And it's not that you only had one animation. You made
five I won't I'm not even going to imitate it, but you had five different animations.
Yeah.
Because you wanted to lean so confidently and so hard into that decision. Mhm.
So, how do you do do you have you ever been making a game and you feel like you're not being honest and you feel you know that feeling where you're you're limiting yourself cuz you're maybe scared of what people will think of the game?

Absolutely.
Have you ever had that cuz you strike me as somebody who wouldn't and that you just do whatever and you don't care. I I distinctly remember having that feeling with my first published game
and um I made like a lot of creative decisions based upon that
and um you know it it got some bad reviews because of it you know I think you know and uh I made decisions that I thought were what people wanted and as opposed to what I thought was going to be cool or what I wanted to do and uh it ended up biting me in the ass because of it. So after that, I was just like, you know, I know what I want to make. I'm going to make that and uh if I get cancelled for it or something, [laughter] then then it is what it is, right?
Yeah.
Well, hey, can I ask you how did they what specifically were those decisions? And if you can't remember them, that's fine. Um
it was just like gameplay mechanics ideas like um trying to like you know I

used to think like oh okay well as opposed to just like trying to tell my story. Let me just try to like throw in like redundant puzzles here and stuff like that because I think it's going to um expand the game and people are going to want to play all these puzzles or this like extended combat scenario or mechanics or just adding more mechanics on top of more mechanics because I think the game needs more gameplay when I'm, you know, as opposed to just being like, hey, like this is my story. I want to tell it uh the way I want to tell it. If there's not like a crazy amount of gameplay, then you know, whatever. Yeah. Right. But, uh, as long as the story is good and people are laughing or people are getting scared, like that's that's those are the emotions that I really want to portray. like I'm not trying to um you know make like a Dark Souls game, [laughter] you know, or
there were several times in Skin Stapler that I was playing today where I personally would have got hung up on
if I were making the game and I would have I would have cross-cheed it with

like my audience. I would have double checked it during a play test. So, like the first one is um the skin stapler talking to you immediately and there's there's no mystery. There's a mystery around him, but like
he's the villain and he just talks to you
all the time at the very beginning of the game and the protagonist, the guy in the hot dog at the gas station, he's talking to the skin stapler as if the skin stapler doesn't scare him. Right. Right.
And that's a it's such an odd decision that you made. It's it's a [clears throat] great one because it it's so funny. The whole vibe is hilarious.
But that's one of those decisions where you go like as a developer and as a storyteller you might read a book about storytelling that says yet the the the the protagonist should act scared,
right,
around the skin stapler, but he doesn't.
Uh we shouldn't we shouldn't hear from the skin stapler right away. He should

be mysterious kind of like Jigsaw, right? And that's one of those decisions where I would have had uh analysis paralysis, right?
Yeah. Right.
You know what I mean?
Um but it seems like you kind of just
you just do whatever and you go with whatever feels right. Is that true?
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Um like one of my my big biggest like inspirations um it's like like I said like ' 80s slasher movies and 90s like campy horror movies. So, like just for like an example, I would think of like have you seen like Nightmare on Elm Street?
You know, like Freddy Krueger, right? Like
he's an example that I can point to of like uh, you know, this crazy looking character,
but like he talks with the, you know, the people that he's about to kill and there's like banter and stuff like that. And that just seems to me is is much more fun. Like I I'm so much more on board with that than like uh, you know, trying to be super serious. Well, another another really funny decision

that you made that I'm like, what is this guy on? And and we'll talk about what drugs you use in a sec, but um [laughter] but there's one section where and it's at the beginning of the demo where you just decided you decided that it was necessary for the detective and his boss to stop the conversation. And he basically
Oh, he eats the donuts. Yeah.
And he eats the donuts in a very sexual way.
Right. Right.
And I'm sitting here thinking about you. I'm thinking, what was he thinking that he felt like this was [laughter]
I don't know honestly like I don't even know what I was thinking. I was just like this this would be hilarious [laughter] if I just stopped mid-con conversation.
Yeah.
And this happened. And that's it just it was just born of that. Like I was just sitting there
and I was and it just hit me and I was like what if I just had him
eat these donuts in a very like suggestive manner out of nowhere and had

him like breathing and like I did all the voice acting for [laughter] for the
I'm sure you did.
Yeah.
So I was like um you know it's like it's just wanted to selfinsert myself a little bit like in a goofy manner you know didn't like I wanted the player to know like you know this isn't going to be like a super serious horror game right now. Well, every single thing is funny. Like the way the characters pop in and out of frame, they don't even open up the doors. They just appear at the door.
Um, that kind of stuff tells you what this game is, right? And when I say this game is a 10 out of 10,
it's not because of fidelity or it being high quality, even though in its own way it is high quality. It's that the game knows what it is. Right.
Right. and that to to to establish a voice to to have a voice and find your voice as a game developer and as a storyteller and to go, you know what, it's totally

fine. The character's just pop in and out of frame. I don't care. Or no, the mouths aren't going to move. Um that that or he's going to he's going to um eat the donuts very very sexually. that those are decisions that they are made because you know your own voice. And so that's I want to shift gears and talk about that. How did you discover your voice? When did you find out okay that's my voice. That's the kind of tone I want to strike. Um, probably like into my like second game, you know, cuz like my second second published game, I'd say uh like around 2024ish, you know, cuz like I mentioned, like my first published game, Suffer the Night, came out and um it got like the demo got a lot of traction and it did really good

and that's why I was able to get a publisher and everything like that, But um the second half of the game like I was still trying to figure out like what the heck am I what am I doing? Like this is all happening very fast and I've never I didn't really expect this to to take off like it did. And um I made a lot of mistakes along the way. I didn't know like I was still trying to make scary games to be scary back then, you know, as opposed to being like um what do I want to make, you know? Like I was just like how can I make a scary game as opposed to being like how can I make a game that I want to make, you know? And at the end of the day, I realized like going into my second game, which was like this pixel art horror game with a slasher vibe called Terra Oakart. Um, like I realized like I'm not a very serious person, you know, like I'm I'm always I'm always goofing. I always laughing and making jokes like uh you know, so like why do I want to try to make serious horror games? like, let me just make fun, goofy, occasionally spooky and scary horror games, you know,

because that just feels like so much more like me and who I am as a person and the kind of stuff that I would want to play and watch on like someone's stream or something like that, you know?
Yeah. So, you found your voice. It was Terra at Oakart or it was before that?
Terra Oakart. It's like
that was a 2D game. Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. cuz I was like um I was like I can just keep trying to like dive into these like 3D games. But I was like you know what I've always wanted to make a pixel art game and I love horror so I'm going to make a pixel art horror game and I just did it. I just I you know I didn't think about it. I was like this is what I'm going to do
and I just did it you know and then you know it turned out how I wanted it to
man. So how how long do these games take you to make? Um, it depends on the game, but I I usually try not to to make it more than a year. Most games usually take about six to eight months from start to finish.
Well, let me um let me ask you your

advice here. So, for some reason, the games that I make, they're always
they're always like five-year projects,
right?
And I don't know why I keep doing that. [laughter] And so my question to you is like what's the trick to getting a game done quickly besides late nights because I had plenty too and it
and somehow mine took five years. What's the trick?
I don't know. I I guess I mean I I guess the easiest thing would would be like just scope, right? Like everybody talks about scope and scope creep and everything like that, you know? But just trying to
like go into it initially with the idea of being like, okay, I want to make a small quick project and I want to keep this scope really tight
and um just stay within those pre-defined uh rails, you know, and and try not to deviate. And even if like a cool idea pops into my head or something like that for like a mechanic or something like that, um just try not to deviate too

much cuz it's uh so easy to just start adding stuff and adding stuff and adding stuff. If if somebody wants to to spend five years making a game, like I'm that's completely valid and totally fine.
But I don't want to though. I hate it.
Right. [laughter]
And I I'm looking if I if I were you or you know if I look I look I look at my own career and I'm like what am I doing? Like and and they're so expensive and they they take forever and it's so much. Dude, this is what I this is my main question for you. I always throw out about 50% of the game. So like let's say
Oh, really?
Yeah. I I throw out like we I always redo the levels twice. Like completely
I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out. I don't know what's wrong with me. [clears throat]
Is it just because maybe like your initial idea changes or like maybe you want to do things a different way or is it just because you're just not happy with it altogether and you just want to start from?
It's not that I'm not It's not that I'm

just unhappy with it. it's that it actually isn't good, you know? Like it's it the first level,
it could be just an experience thing,
but like always the first level, the first iteration of a level I throw out because it just sucks. It's not fun. It's it's almost as if the original idea wasn't good for a level or for a character or for a gameplay mechanic. It just wasn't good to begin with. And so it's always this guess and check process for me of like
really I have to build something to know if it sucks. I can't know if it's good until I build it.
Do you know what I mean?
I mean it sounds it sounds like you're probably a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to that kind of stuff, right? You know like
that's that's totally fine. Um, I mean, and and the way I do things is uh I don't really try to chase perfection necessarily. As long as like um the

story for me is strong and like uh I can get from point A to point B, you know, that I I I realize that not everything's going to be polished to the point where I want it to be, but I'm okay with I guess I don't know if this is the best phrase, but cutting corners a little bit, [laughter] you know, if I need to.
I love that phrase. That that's music to my ears. I'm I'm thinking about cutting a lot of corners for the next game. Um
the thing is though is I I think I hear I I talked to a lot of game developers who are like you who for some reason they're able to knock projects out quickly and they'll say stuff like that. They'll say, "Well, avoid feature creep and you know, perfection is the enemy of good." Or something like that, some phrase,
right? And I'm like, I I don't think you guys, the people people like you, know how lucky or like gifted you are at the ability to know which corners to cut.
Right.
It's one thing to cut corners. It's another thing to know which corners are

good to cut.
Right. Right. Right.
Do you know what I mean? Cuz like certain things you didn't cut the corners on, like music.
Right.
Right.
Mhm. Yeah. I write all my music for my games. What corners are you cutting in your games that you think are fine to cut? you know, things like like you mentioned earlier, like not having the mouse move on the character models, you know, or having characters pop in and out of frame as opposed to like having them fully animated and walking or opening a door and stuff like that, you know, just little things like that where I'm just like, okay, like that, okay, you know, people are playing the game like they're they're not going to stop and be like, "Oh man, did you see that how that animation of the character opening the door was like topnotch, dude?" Like, no, they're like, "Okay, what's going to happen next in the story?" Right? So like uh I you know obviously like I have major story beats in my games and those are what I focus on like those major story beats and I try to make those specific scenes look as good as I could possibly make them with my skill set.

And then everything [clears throat] from getting to those story beats is kind of like, okay, how can I save time to get to the next big part of the story, you know, and how can I cut corners to kind of like not get stuck up and try to make everything look and play the best it possibly can or especially with like animations because animations take forever, you know?
Your animations are good. Your other than characters popping in and out of frame, your animations are great. I mean, they're
I mean, [laughter] They're janky. They're janky for sure.
But like that that's another thing that that fascinates me about your work is that you've
you've you've moved into a style and an aesthetic that allows for cutting corners and cutting corners is an asset.
Mhm.
It's funny and great that the characterser's mouths don't move,
right? especially that there's a cop there's a female cop and when she's talking to you she's like this and she

just stares at you the whole time and her mouth's not moving at all and I just threw the I just laugh I just sat back and laughed how funny that was.
So it is
it is a feature
not a problem. It's a feature that you cut corners and you've you've picked a genre and an aesthetic that allows for that. Whereas a lot of indie game developers listening right now, they they choose an aesthetic that necessitates fidelity in almost every aspect of the game.
Yeah. Perfection. Yeah.
Yeah. Otherwise, like imagine if imagine if Flesh made Fear looked like, you know, Grand Theft Auto
RE9 or something like that.
Yeah. And then all of a sudden characters are popping in and out, then it would be a problem.
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I totally agree. like if if uh especially as a as a indie developer like trying to put out like a like a AAA looking game and stuff like that is I don't know man cuz like once you start getting at that graphic level like

everything's got to match that, right?
Yeah.
You know, the animation's got to match that. Um you know, the dialogue, the music, uh the the UI, like everything's got to look at that level. And you know the a moment that it doesn't the illusion starts cracking and breaking you know and next thing you know it's like uh your your game gets bad reviews you know.
Yep. And that is I think that is what separates a true artist from someone who wants to be an artist. A true heart artist knows how to take three colors and turn it into a masterpiece. Right.
Right. And you're taking lowfidelity models, really bad textures, and you're turning it into something gorgeous.
Right. Right.
That is art. Like that is art. You know, all your voice is just spilling out of this game.
Yeah. Thank you.

Especially skin stapler. I will say though, you're talk you you mentioned earlier. I'm going to push back on something you said cuz I'm trying to get I'm trying to get to the heart of how your brain works because a lot of game developers I talk to like you sometimes it feels like you're like it just it just works. You just make you make games and you don't really know how talented you are. For example, you [clears throat] said earlier, you said, "Yeah, I just do really simple mechanics and I like I stick to a simple set of mechanics and I don't let feature creep come in."
And I'm But I played I played Skin Stapler and there's like 20 different things mechanics going on.
Yeah.
Like you make hot dogs,
you know, you have dialogue, you have uh cutscenes, uh you're switching character models, which is crazy. I don't know how you did that so efficiently. Um, that demo is dense with mechanics. Um, so I don't know if that was like you might see it

differently than I see it cuz it feels very complicated.
I think a lot of it is just stuff that I've done before, you know. So, it's like I get to a point where um, you know, like uh especially with like first person stuff where I've made quite a few games like that now. So, it all just feels really quick and easy for me to make these days as opposed to like if it was the first time doing it, you know?
Yeah.
Um, but even like those mechanics you're talking about, like they're pretty simple. Like if you break them down to like their core, it's just like a simple interaction or pressing a button or like a QTE, which all just comes back down to like, you know, boolean code essentially, right? True, false, true, false, true, false. Like
just doing simple checks like that. But, uh, it just has the appearance of different mechanics. Right.
Well, you know, what do you think about Friends Slop and and these stats like games and and casino type games and have you played any of these? Cuz they're very different than your games. Your

games are linear story games, you know.
Um, it's it's like a kind of a lovehate thing for me to be honest. Um, like I've played a few where I've had like a lot of fun with my friends and I can see the appeal of that just like having fun with your friends and like that, having a good time. But at the same time, like uh I don't know. I don't think it was some it would be something I would ever want to make just because uh I don't know. I like telling stories, man. You know, like I just I like that's just like what I like to do, you know? and and making a game completely with the idea of like trying to cash in on like a trend or a fad or whatever that's going around at the time. Um, it's just not my vibe. Like I totally get it. Like if that's what you want to do and like you want to make money and you want to be as successful as you possibly can as quickly as possibly can. So you're looking for trends and you're looking for what's hot and you're like, "Okay,

I'm going to make that. I'm gonna keep making that and and hopefully um you know I'll get lucky and my game will take off and I'll make a bunch of money and it'll be great. Um but that's just not me. That's just not my vibe. That's just not something um I want to do. So, like I don't necessarily hate uh developers or the games themselves that come out like that unless they're like really um like blatantly like a cash grab, then I'll be like, "Oh, you know, kind of just,
you know, stick my nose up to him and snub him a little bit, you know." U
but like uh I think in most cases I'm just like, you know, whatever. I'm I'm in my own lane doing my own thing. So, um, and I'm happy doing it, you know. So, I don't really try not to, uh, get caught up in too much drama between,
yeah,
developers and stuff like that. And
I, uh, I agree. I, I, I love telling stories, too, man. That's, that's, I live for that. And it's kind of what we

were talking about at the beginning of the podcast where I would choose any career where I get to tell a story. As long as I get to tell a story, that's that's it. You know, whether it's
it is. I I I think about I think about story a lot. What is it about there? There's a whole question why human beings love story,
right?
But there's also a question of why do I and why do you why do we have to tell a story? What is that? Like it's it is for me it is like my other than being a dad. I have three kids.
Being a great dad, a great husband. My goal is to tell stories and I I'm unhappy if I don't do it and I will do anything possible to ensure that I can keep telling stories and get paid to do it.
Exactly the same way I feel.
Yeah. I don't know. It's like it's it's maybe it's because like that's it's the way we communicated before we even had language, you know, it's like with cave

drawings and paintings and stuff like that, you know, trying to express uh either visually or or you know, with sounds and stuff like that, like the stories of our ancestors or people who came before us, you know, and that's just evolved over time into telling more elaborate uh you know, escapism stories where there's like you know, you go outside your life and imagine yourself in this other world as a different character doing things that you you know that you've always wanted to do or living out some crazy fantasy or something like that and it's just it takes you out of that like mundane um 9 to5 existence that we all you know live in right so I think storytelling allows us to escape from all that and just uh even for a little while you know pretend to be something else or be somewhere else, you know?
Dude, that's that's a great way to put it. And I I think about like, okay,

let's think about one of my favorite slasher films. It's not a slasher film, but it's a John Carpenter film. I love The Thing. I think it's an incredible
It's my favorite movie. It's my absolute favorite movie.
Yes, it is. And when I think about that movie, it it's almost like um you know how people will treat like a religious text or like the constitution is like it's almost otherworldly. It's got this mythos where you don't mess with it. You don't touch it. Um the same is true with movies like The Thing,
right?
It's got this divine spirit that's embedded in it now.
And it's more it's more real than reality. Do you know what I mean by that?
It's got more. It got And so I think about story as like
sometimes I wonder and David Lynch is one of my favorite directors and he talks a lot about how
I'm sure I'm sure you've seen some David Lynch movies. Maybe not.
Of course. Of course. He talks about ideas as if they're things that are already there

and stories that they already exist in the ether and your job is to to pull it out from the ether and find it and and craft it into something that
people can see. [gasps] And [snorts] I do wonder if that's true to a degree like that that that stories even even like flesh made fear, right? Or the skin stapler that that story has existed for eternity and you found it,
you know, and it's more real than you are because it existed before you were real.
And and I know that sounds really like like ethereal and spiritual, but
I think sometimes we live as if that's true. um the way that we treat stories and the way we obsess about them and when a new trailer comes out for a movie, it's like the greatest thing ever and we obsess about it, we think about it and we care so much about it. Like when Game of Thrones season 8 just completely pissed people off,
right?
That was a funny phenomenon. It was like
nothing could piss people off more than that story,

right?
You know, and you wonder why is that? It's interesting to think about because it's like uh like where do these ideas come from? They just like pop in your head one day, right? It's like where does that where did that that thought even come, right? It's like so it does make you kind of like question um like I I am like uh I believe in God but like I wouldn't say that like I'm a super religious person but like you know um even though like I have like the serenity prayer tattooed on my arm but that's because like uh my my family has issues with uh in the past with addiction and stuff like that. So, um it's very personal to me, but uh uh the idea of like a higher power and stuff like that is something that um just something that's bigger than yourself, right? Uh and spirituality and stuff like that. I definitely do have um some thoughts on that and I definitely uh do kind of like lend like lean more into that kind of stuff. So, I do agree like where where does that stuff come

from? It's interesting to think about and like in general like you know uh like the like do these these ideas do do they exist? I mean do they exist before us? Do they exist after us? Like what's going to what's going to pop into my head tomorrow? I don't know. [laughter]
I know. And I think that people like you are born. You have like a tether.
You're born with like a tether to some weird dimension
and it some pool of creativity or something like that.
Something like that. Like kind of like Hellraiser where it's like the door the dimension opens up and it's like oh that's what I was tethered to the whole time.
It's [snorts] like
all these games you're making. I wonder if we were to pull back the layer. Are you tethered to hell? And there's some like some connection to hell that that makes you think and tick the way you think? Like I was thinking about, sorry to keep ranting here, but I was playing the gas station level and I was

thinking, does he
does he feel that way when he goes in a gas station? Does the gas station feel that way for you when you walk into that environment? Do you see the world that way?
It's a question for you,
right? Um I think at some points in my life definitely. Yeah. Um I do try to like pull in a little bit of like life experience into some stuff I've made. Like I said, I think overall I do agree that I do kind of have like a darker side to myself, you know, that uh I pull my ideas from
and like I don't know why I have these thoughts and the the way I feel the way I do. I mean, obviously, um, like it's not like any kind of like violent tendencies or anything like that, but like I just love gore and horror and like uh just dark things like that. I've always been just drawn to them. I don't know why. I just

uh that's just stuff I like it. And maybe it comes back to uh having some kind of like tether to to like hell or something like that, right? Um I don't know. It's it's just it's such a thing to think about like uh
yeah like I don't know I just don't it's just I [laughter] just it all just feels so natural to me that's just the way I am. just like who I am, you know, like I don't know.
I can't really put my feet. In a way, you're incredibly lucky that that you have that voice inside of you and it's seemingly always been there, you know, because now you can capitalize on that voice, you know, and turn it into
I think I've always been a creative person because like even before
um you know, the game tip, like I was, you know, doing music um and I just always have this this like yearning, I guess you could say, to to be creat creative to create stuff to to put stuff out in the world. And uh finding game

development was kind of just like like finding my calling, you know, because you get to explore so many different facets of creativity
and game development, not just like one aspect.
Um like with music where you're just making music, right? Like with game dev, I get to make music. I get to make models. I get to make stories. I get to to program, you know, I get to do I get to do all these things that just make that just is like outpouring of my creative uh self, you know, and I'm just putting so much work and thought and and care into my my games and it just feels so fulfilling to me that like uh I'm at a point in my life where I just feel happy all the time because I just have that I just have that fulfillment, right? you know, like that where everybody's looking for everybody's looking for that thing in their life that,
you know, is kind of like their calling, I guess. And um I just feel lucky that I found something that I
You feel like you found your calling and

that's it.
Yeah, I I do. I I love making games. I could see myself doing this, you know, for the rest of my life, whether it be like hardcore into like the actual development side of things or um getting to a point where I can just take a step back and maybe like manage a small team of people
and just like focus on the storytelling aspects of it and not so much the technical side of things.
As long as like I'm getting to be part of that creative process, it's just like it's amazing and I love it, you know? I couldn't see myself doing anything else at this point in my life. What are some um if you had a son? Do you have kids?
I don't. I know. I wish. I always wanted to have kids. I just haven't.
It's the greatest thing ever. It's very difficult.
I bet. I bet.
Yeah. It's awesome. So, if you had a son, I asked this to a lot of my developers. If you had a son and he was like uh 11 years old right now and he was like, "Dad, I want to be a solo game developer." M
and you had to give him some kind of

road map or blueprint to get there,
right?
Cuz you you did it somehow. You did it. You've been a solo developer and these games, you've released so many games that are paying your bills, which is just so cool. Congratulations. That's a dream come true.
How did you do that? What's what's the blueprint? And this is for people listening. I want them to get some kind of idea from an actual seasoned solo game developer doing what they dream of. My hope is that you can give them some kind of blueprint, something that they can follow to get where you've gotten. Do you have anything?
Yeah. I mean, I always like any I I get asked from other developers all the time like um like where to start, you know, and I always try to tell them to start with small free projects, you know, obviously you need to learn the technical aspects of game development. um you know anywhere and you you can find all kinds of resources like even stuff that you've put out you know there's great resources on learning how to actually make a game but once you've

learned how to make a game and you can actually get to the point where you can ship a product um you know I always try to tell people start small start just get some get some free games out there get people playing your game like you know uh it may you may want to just jump in and try to make money right away and sell your game and stuff like that. But the approach I took was I made like two or three free games and I just put them out in the world for people to play to get my name out there and establish myself as a as a game developer. And then it wasn't even until like uh Suffer the Night that my first published game where I actually charged for a game. And at that point, I had already built even if it was a tiny audience, it was still an audience. And then that just kept growing with each game and growing and growing. So just being consistent uh with your output on on games, starting small with free games to build an audience. Then once people trust you and know that you're not just trying to make it some cheap asset flip game or your games are broken and you can't even

play them. Once you've established that trust with players, then they'll keep coming back and buying your next game and buying your next game and your audience will continue to grow and then you can start making a living off your games, you know. But I guess the most important thing is like just making sure that your games um work first and foremost.
Yes, it is true. They they've got to be optimized and bug free. That's that matters much for review. It's like far as a technical aspect of things like that's probably the most important is being able to finish your game from start to finish without it crashing and stuff like that.
Absolutely.
But also
just trying, like I said, just, you know, consider putting out some free games and just trying to get people to play them because there so competitive these days. There's so many developers entering the market um and everybody just wants to get to the end part right away where they're making money and they're successful, right? But the problem is is that you have no audience

yet, right? You need to build that audience. And sometimes people get lucky and they just get successful right out the door. I mean, there are exceptions to everything, but I've always lived my life by the rule as opposed to the exception, you know? So, that's right.
I like to I like to uh not put all my eggs in one basket, right? And kind of just
be consistent. Consistency is is I think the most important thing in life and everything that you do, right? just being consistent with your your work schedule, consistent with your health, you know, consistent with uh you know, your happiness and and and trying to make sure that you're setting aside time to be happy and stuff like that. Just you know, every aspect of life. Yeah, just be consistent.
I think um I think I knew you were consistent by the way you communicated with me about scheduling this podcast. You said um I'm willing to do it. You said, "I'm willing to do it after work hours." And it was it was uh as if you were saying you took your work hours so

seriously working on your game. [laughter] You're like, "I'll do a podcast, but I'm not going to interrupt my work schedule." So I app I do appreciate it, by the way.
But I knew right then I was like, "Oh, he's serious about this."
Yeah. Yeah. like I' I've tried to, you know, because um like I said after after the Flesh Made Fear game, like the the amount of late nights that I poured into and stuff like that and just totally kind of like burning my schedule to the ground to get that game out in time. I was like, "Okay, I'm not doing that again." Like I need to be more consistent with about my work hours and like treat this like an actual job as far as like when I'm working and when to stop working and do something else and make sure that my, you know, I'm taking care of myself, you know. [laughter]
Yeah.
Yeah. Uh that's indicated by the bench press behind you. Um I love that. I love that. Well, let's open up Unity if if you have some time here, man. Do we have some time or is it Unity or is it Unreal? Uh
I use Unreal. Oh man, it looks so bad without

lighting. And [laughter]
I hope I hope you know what I mean by that. Um yeah, it's just lighting is so important, you know. Um
yeah, so you know, I always work in on on lit mode when I'm like working, you know, engine just because,
you know, it's saves on resources.
But like this is a so this is a level in the game that isn't in the demo. Um it's actually like a little bit of a cold open. And you can see like where I was talking about like trying to cut corners like the this whole section of the game takes place in this apartment, right? And uh you never go outside this apartment. So there's no reason to have an actual apartment building, right? I just have,
you know, the inside the interior modeled and then that's it, right?
Yep.
Um
is your game built on a grid?
No, it's not. Okay. It's just you're just throwing in the assets and feeling it out.
Yeah, just throwing the assets. Um I use

like a lot of uh I do use the grid system to um you know, like if I'm using like a module set, you know, something.
Yes.
You know, like uh like this floor, you know, if I turn on
then I can drag and kind of just snap everything to where it needs to be, you know.
But generally, I just I just drag stuff in and and start creating, you know? It's like a It's like a canvas, right? You know,
right?
Um and then Okie dokie.
So, your your scenes are very small. Um they're not super complicated or sprawling. Correct.
Yeah. I mean, I can I can open up a different map that's a little bit more uh see like this one maybe. Then I I do a lot of level streaming too, you know. So um you know like this is a more extensive like city scene right where the demo tech what you mean by level streaming because that is not a thing in Unity.
Maybe I'm wrong.
So you see you you see this section down

here. So like uh the exterior you're you go up here and then you teleport down here when you enter the building, right? But like I'm not using I'm not using any of this stuff while you're in while you're outside the building. So,
I cut everything up into different sections. So, I have my persistent level right here, right?
And then, um, I have these sub levels that load in and load out. As you can see, like when it's turned off, all the stuff is is unloaded visually just to save on resources. So, I I did this a lot um in uh Flesh Made Fear um because there was so many different buildings that needed interiors modeled and everything like that. and having all that stuff rendered in real time
um was just like eating up the frame rate. So, uh level streaming is essentially it's like everything is loaded up front, but then you can toggle the visibility and the rendering off and on. So, you know, I just use like simple trigger boxes.
So, when like a player overlaps with that trigger box or interacts with the

door, it'll toggle the visibility of that section of the level on and off
and I can control that.
That's so cool. That's That's good to know. Um, [clears throat] can we see this this in part because I want to talk about this bowling alley. Can we hit play and see inside of this?
Sure. I think there's like a little cut scene that plays out first. Uh,
okay.
Let me see if I can disable it first.
Okay. Yeah. I want my audience to be able to see how beautiful it looks with all of the post-processing and the lighting and [snorts]
but I want to talk about
Sure. Sure. cuz actually uh that has stuff that's relative to the
spoilers.
Yeah, I don't want to. There you go. [laughter] This trim testing mode on it.
Oh man, I don't understand blueprints at all. I
It's a great system. I like it. Um I'm [clears throat] sure it's great. [gasps]
Yeah. Oh, this looks so good, dude. I

love it so much. Okay, so let me ask you a question as we explore this and and go inside. What era were you born in and where where did you grow up if you don't mind me asking because related to this?
Yeah. So, I was born uh in the late 80s. So, I'm like a '9s child for sure.
Um
and I spent most of my childhood in Los Angeles.
Okay.
I'd say I'd say probably like
maybe like 80%
just
Yeah. I'm I'm uh I'm August 1990. So I think you and I are probably similar age.
Yeah. 88. I think maybe I'm a little bit older than you. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I look at the carpeted walls and the carpeted ceilings of your bowling alley.
Um
Oh, yeah. You can hit it.
And yeah, let's go inside. And I saw that and I immediately thought, yeah, this guy grew up in the '9s because

that's that that carpet. Oh man, I get so much nostalgia looking at that.
Right. Right. Same here. Same mirror all the way.
And when it's on the ceilings, that's so authentic to the era. Like [laughter] And it's on the walls, too.
The whole thing was just the same carpet. Yeah.
And I just thought you did so well aesthetically here with with this scene. I was just like, I have to talk to this guy when I saw this scene. Um, so these go ahead. Oh, so I was just going to say like that's, you know, that's what I grew up in. So it was I'm definitely like pulling from like my memories when I'm doing
like this this era of uh you know, I guess interior design or like level design. like everything is coming from my my direct experiences as as a kid growing up in the 90s and going to arcades, going to VHS stores, you know, uh playing the classic console games and stuff like that on PlayStation and N64, Dreamcast. Like it's it's all my

childhood, you know? So like making this kind of game is like right up my alley because it just feels uh like me, you know? It's like this is this is what I was playing when I was a kid. So this is like something I can definitely recreate authentically. You know
what um can we take a look at your assets? So like can you give us some examples of custom assets versus assets you flipped?
Sure. Sure. Sure. So um I for like an example uh as like a like a asset that I just like imported or you could say flip as like these little trash piles and stuff like that, you know. I think this is from like a like a debris pack that I found on like itch or something like that, you know.
So, you can see like the the texture style is is definitely different. Like the floor texture I made and then this is like somebody else's like picture bashed texture like they just took a picture and threw it on there or something like that. Um,

uh, as far as like custom assets, obviously like you know these cabinets and stuff like that. This character model.
Oh, the character model is custom, like fully custom.
Yeah. Yeah. So, look at the character models. Um,
yeah, I'd love to. That's it. I'm surprised you went with the character models being the ones that are custom. I mean, the results speak for themselves. They look very unique, but it is difficult to do, you know.
Yeah. So, so some of the some of the character models, like I said, I outsource to I work with a guy named Fay and he helps me with um character models. Uh he has a great job like uh this is like a example of one of the custom models that he made. Um
yeah,
he also did uh there's a lot of goth girls in my games [laughter] specifically.
Great. uh just because it really fits the aesthetic I think you know that the vibe I'm going
you know
kind of like
can we zoom into the poly count I want to see kind of how how low fidelity this

actually is
yeah we can turn on wire frame
so the faces have a higher focus fidelity um that's great dude it's so beautiful
those are the kind of images that tend to go viral on Twitter I don't know if you've experienced that where
whenever you show like Yeah, whenever you show like a really high like a a not a what what's the word? A correctly done PSX aesthetic. It always does really well on Twitter.
Oh, that's great.
I love that.
Yes. So, are we doing are we using normal maps at all and or is it just all just all base color?
Yep. I love that. Yeah, that's another aspect of the, you know, the design process when making this kind of game is like um, you know, like the PlayStation one and like the N64, like they didn't have normal maps. They didn't have um, roughness maps, uh, ambient occlusion, stuff like that. It was all just base color with hand painted textures and

stuff like that, you know.
Yep.
And we can take a look at the skin stapler if you want.
Sure. Sure. Let's do it. So many so many models for characters. This is crazy.
Yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch. Um, [clears throat] so this is his masked version.
Oh gosh, dude. That's great.
You know,
Oh, I love that. Did you come up with the concept?
Yeah. So, [laughter] the whole idea with the skin staber um came from so like everybody who voice acts in my games, they're all streamers that have played my games in the past that I've kind of just like became friends with over time.
Yeah.
Um and I was hanging out in one of their streams one night. Uh it was actually uh Blair, which is the character in the demo. Let me pull up her model real fast. Um so this is actually modeled after her. This is what she looks like in real life. all the

all the all the female characters and even Hexi are modeled after their actual streamer
uh counterparts in real life who voiced them. Um so this is what she looks like. Anyways, I was hanging out in her stream and they were talking about like nerve stapling or something like that uh relative to uh some kind of like medical thing. I don't remember what it was exactly, but I was like nerve stapling is crazy sounding. And I was like what if what if there was a killer who did that with skin? And I was like,
and I put that in the chat and I was like, I'm going to make a game called the skin stabler. And then that's literally just what I did.
I love that. [laughter]
I didn't even think about it any more than that.
She definitely gets to be in the game then if she's the impetus of the idea.
Oh, definitely.
Are her tattoos correct?
Uh, for the most part. Um, [laughter] obviously, uh, not like 100% authentic. Um, but like I try to get as close as possible, you know,
you know, it's it's not a um, [snorts] you know, like you've done pixel art as

well, 2D pixel art. 2D pixel art is not as easy as it looks. And um, properly properly unwrapping a low fidelity model and using pixel art as its textures, it's it's no small feat, right? It's pretty pretty difficult to do, especially era appropriate. Um, would you say that it's pretty straightforward and pretty easy or would you say it's it requires some uh I know you didn't do the actual models but
um as far as pixel art goes or for the 3D models?
Yeah. Yeah, it well I guess let me reframe my question. Is capturing this PlayStation aesthetic would you say that it's an easy thing to do and to do it correctly?
Um Not initially. No. I think to get it to look right was definitely like a trial and error process.
Okay.
Um but like at this point like I understand the process and how how to

make things look and stuff like that.
Okay.
So it's much easier.
Look at his eyehadow. That's hilarious.
Yeah. [laughter] The streamer uh who's this is modeled after, he actually used this section of the of the texture file and made an emo out of it. [laughter] because it looks so it looks so funny.
Yeah. Oh, dude. And that's a brilliant marketing [clears throat] tactic because I know these streamers are going to play the game.
Um
Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
Which I'm not saying that was your reasoning. I'm sure you're just friends with them, but that's so cool.
Yeah. I mean, it's uh it's cool because um honestly, I love working with these streamers because they're very passionate about indie horror. you know, they play hidey horror games all day every day. It's like they it's like their lives, you know, how how they make their living and stuff like that, you know.
So, bringing them in to do do voice acting is actually much more uh

uh passionate, I guess you could say, uh than than hiring like just a traditional voice actor who just kind of looks at it as a job and then does the job and then moves on to the next thing, you know? Uh, which is like I'm not trying to like bash voice actors.
I'm just saying for my
for for like my personal uh my my my games is like it's so much nicer to bring people in who are part of the community. Not only that, like it brings us all together as a community, you know, because we all get to to be part of this creative process of making a game together. Um, yeah. You know, even if they're just doing some voice lines for the game, it still, you know, allows them to be part of the creative pro process and a lot of them want to be part of the creative process. they just don't have the the tool set to do anything or to make games themselves, right? So, it's like,
yeah,
um allowing them to to come in and be part of it.
Well, it's very it's very communal and very human
and I uh I think it's like the opposite of what's going on right now with AI
and a lot of the and look, a lot of

Friends slop games are great and a lot of stats like games are great, but I do see games like this where you've built this wonderfully unique universe
and you've you've you've gotten a community involved in the game and I see that and I'm like that is so special and so human like that's what makes humans so exciting [snorts]
is they can create this whole universe from their mind and um it's just different it's different than a lot of the slop we see now and some of the slop is good slop but this is not slop this is handcrafted crafted uh singular singular-minded [clears throat] and that's a special thing and and we don't see a lot of it. So,
right. Yeah, I feel very similar. Um, it's it's definitely uh I I don't know how to put it, but like it's it's fulfilling to just have a group of people that um you know share

the same kind of values and passions that you do, you know, and just being able to to uh make something with them is it's really nice.
Yeah, [laughter] it is. I had um [clears throat] I I had the absolute honor and and privilege to have Jack Septic Eye do voice acting for one of my games. I had
That's so awesome.
It was so cool. Game Grumps did voice acting and then PewDiePie did voice acting somehow.
That's amazing.
He did he did voice acting in um my first game, this one right here, Pinstripe. Um and he did voice acting in that game. how I don't even know how that happened. I can't remember what happened. I haven't heard from him since. But [laughter]
I mean, it's it's it's really cool though, right? Like it's just, you know,
it's so cool to just have that like in your calling card and just being
just being able to communicate with

people like that are at that kind of level.
It's crazy.
It's it's just really it's really cool.
Okie dokie. Well, Mr. Michael, thank you so much for Michael. How do I say your last name, by the way?
Kosio.
Okay, I'm going to say something that could be offensive. I don't know if it is. I don't know what's allowed anymore. What What's your heritage?
Um I guess like Italian and like uh
Austrian, I guess.
Okay, that's so cool. I was just curious um what where Casio came from comes from. I have found, and again, I don't know if this is offensive or not. I'm just gonna say it though. I have found that people who have a have roots outside of America tend to like darker art forms,
right?
I don't know why. Um I when I would go and and play test my games, cuz my games are kind of dark, too. Whenever I would play test, it was always people outside

of American heritage, like if you know what I mean.
Yeah. that were always like um a lot of a lot of Hispanic cultures love my games and I can't figure it out like the Gothic tones
and I'm curious if that's even a conversation because I I might even just cut this part but like I'm curious if that's a conversation
maybe it's just like American culture like everybody's so um caught up with like I don't know like I never grew up with like the rap culture or
um like the pop culture and stuff like Yeah. Um but you know,
I never lie. I never cared for that stuff.
Yeah. Like the vast majority of Americans like that's what they're into, you know. It's just not really um a thing as much maybe outside of America, you know? So people maybe
lean more towards uh different styles and are at least more open to it.
Yeah.
Maybe like in and here in America everything's just kind of like shoved in your face.
Yeah.
Uh very specific styles and aesthetics and stuff like that. Maybe I don't know

overseas. Um, I love Have you seen Del Toro's Frankenstein?
Yeah, it was really good.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's really really good.
So good. And I think I think he draws a lot of his inspiration
from his heritage, right?
Um, and I just wonder what is that, you know? It's like why is it that and I totally know what you mean by like like when I grew up in high school my friends were either listening to rap or like where I live it's always country cuz I live in the east coast of South [clears throat] Carolina country pop
country poppy country
and um rap and then the movies are always like hey have you seen Transformers and I'm like no no I [laughter] haven't talked about
yeah yeah totally
yeah I'm watching Like cuz my thing when I was in high school is I loved might Shyamalan movies. I loved like The Village and uh I loved the the these like arty films and arty games, you

know? That's why I loved Bioshock and and I'm trying to make a kind of an homage to Bioshock.
I was going to say like uh you know, your game seems very like uh Bio Bioshocked, which is really cool. Like
I I love that. I love I love I love dusty, gritty, old things.
Um [clears throat] whether it's movies or Bioshock has that that that flavor and your games have that flavor.
Like uh what's that style? It's called um art deco.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's art deco. Yeah.
Or your games are like I feel like I like games that I feel like I got transported into
not the present,
you know, into the past. And there's something be I like to be able to smell games as well. I don't know if you you know what I mean by that, but like
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. When I play Skin Stapler, I can smell those hot dogs.
You can definitely smell the skin stapler [laughter] for sure.
That's right.
All that trash and grime everywhere. There's very like if you've been to a big city and like you like even like the

steam coming out from the the low res uh you know JPEG uh sewer grates with the the steam coming out. Like if you've been to a city, you know what that smells like, right? [clears throat]
That's right. That's right. And I can smell your games before I even hit play, man. I'm just like, "Oh, it gets installed on my machine and I'm like, why do I smell old carpet and burnt popcorn,
right? [laughter]
All right, Michael, thanks for hanging out, man. That was so fun." Um,
yeah,
I'm going to leave you, man.
Yeah, absolutely. It was a lot of fun. I'll leave a link in the description for um Skin Stapler. Is Is that the one you want or would you would you rather have something else? I I think that's probably I mean we talked about that game a lot and uh it's my upcoming game so probably best to promote that one.
Cool.
I do I really appreciate it, man. It was a great talk. Like uh you're a really awesome dude and like uh you know your your whole
uh background with the religion and and everything like that. I totally respect that and how how like you wear that on your sleeve and everything like that because I know a lot of people like

they're they're kind of scared to to like you know be open about religion just because there's so many people out here in the world that are just like anti-Christian or
you know um
well you would think in general you know
you you know what's funny is I would think you would be but that's I have found that it is that it is usually the people who at bare minimum believe in God or have some sort of spiritual bone in their body. And I think we all do, but like who who've embraced a spiritual bone. Those are the people who tend to make really good horror.
I don't know why.
The Catholics make really good horror. Um the Catholics make awesome horror. Uh in particular, The Exorcist, which is one of the greatest greatest movies of all time. I love that.
I think maybe because we like like we understand morale a little bit more than like somebody who's like an atheist or something like that who just It's not necessarily like that.
Sure. I think so. It's not necessarily they we understand morality. It's that

we're required every Sunday as children to dig into the mechanics of morality,
right?
And like the way I grew up, man, it was like Sunday Sunday morning, I still go to church, but like Sunday morning is church and then Friday nights we sing hymns. The four me and my four brothers sing hymns around the the the the um dining room, right? and then and then talk about morality and ethics and philosophy. And
some people would say, "Wow, that's really traumatic." I'm like, "No, it was amazing. It was like a Socratic seminar every every Sunday night." Um,
yeah.
So, that that pours into my it pours into my work like this game here.
Um, and then also Never Song. It pours in and I'm sure that I'm sure that your your culture or however you were raised is pouring into your games, you know?
Right. Like my dad um like I mentioned before, we were dealing with a lot of like uh like I like I said, I have the serenity tattoo.

That is so cool. I love the red.
It's a bold move, dude.
Right. Um but you know [laughter] it means it means a lot to me cuz like uh you know like addiction was a big part of my family but like growing up in like um Alcoholics Anonymous or like Annie and stuff like that just like a lot of people would assume that's like a very traumatic thing. Some of the nicest and most loving people that I've, you know, grown uh like relationships with and connections with have been people in those rooms that have, you know, been through some real crazy things in their life, but like just giving themselves over not necessarily to like a Christian God, but just a higher power in general. Because a lot of people that go to like AA and NA, they don't necessarily buy into
like the idea of of Christianity
or anything like that, but the whole ideas behind um what is written in and like the the alcoholic anonymous book is like uh you know giving yourself over to a higher power
regardless of whatever that is. Um it's

just taking yourself out out of the equation and realizing that you're not in control, you know, right?
Yep. those ideas [clears throat] carry over.
Absolutely they do. Um and I think that um [snorts] one one of the reasons why I'm pretty open about it is that I like to close doors that I don't want open anyway. So for example,
anybody and this isn't me trying to diss anybody or anything like that. I just know that in the game world, the video game world or in the let's say fil because I eventually want to get into the film world. Uh, I don't want to I don't want to do any business partnerships or relationships with people who would be offended that I would say something like that about my faith or something.
It's not that I want I it's not that I only want to work with people who believe the same thing. That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that I like to shut the doors with people who would be offended by something,
right? Like you just because someone doesn't just because someone doesn't have the same religion to you doesn't

mean like they can't respect what you have or what you believe. But if someone's offended by it and they're like, I hate that you put that in your bio, then I'm like, well, then I'm glad I did so that I don't ever have to potentially do business.
Totally.
And I see that with your work where it's like
you're going to put very phallic hot dog scenarios in your games.
And it's like, okay, well, I'm never going to work with certain publishers who would hate that, and I don't want to work with them anyway. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah.
So, in a way, you're burning bridges. Yeah, that's exactly the word filter. And so that's why I'm always saying like to to people watching this channel, I'm like, embrace your voice and say something. Say something because uh especially with AI because AI is the distillation of all voices into this boring average.
Right?
Now's the time to say something spicy and say it well. People always say I they they go, I hate how games are get have politics in them or religion in them. And I'm like, that's the whole

point. The whole point is to say something and just because you don't like it doesn't mean that the artist didn't at least say something honestly. Right.
Right. Right.
Um so that's why I'm kind of open about things, you know.
Yeah. It's it's a great way to live to be honest. It's a great way to live.
Yeah, I agree.
Well, dude, good luck with your move to Vegas. Um
that's incredible.
It just makes complete sense that you would live in Vegas. You're just [laughter] I don't know. It's like
you're And by the way,
[laughter]
That's right.
Yeah. Right.
Um, have you played A Cat Named Mojave?
Uh, I haven't played it, but I've watched a few people play it. It's an absolutely absurd game. [laughter]
It's got a very It's so absurd. It's got a very similar flare to your games and so
I played it yesterday on a stream and I was just having a ball. Um,
yeah, it's it's out there. It's really good. Yeah, but it's got it's got that I don't know, western Nevada flare, kind

of like Breaking Bad type flare. So, that's why I brought it up because I was thinking about Vegas. Um,
yeah,
I'm not sure if that's a good segue. Anyway, I'll let you go here, man. Um, let's stay connected on Discord, obviously, and maybe I'll have you on another time and keep you posted on
For sure. for your game.