Why Demos are so critical with Tomas Sala

You can't fake your way to success. I think that's that's honestly uh uh with the Falconer that didn't have that looked great, but was really an artsy niche 1990s style controlled stick flyer, which was a dead genre and was dead for a reason. I don't Yeah, early access is I I I don't think it's for indies. Let's put it like that. For small time indies like me, it's not it's not a survivable situation.
I 100% agree with you. Splattercat was huge and Raptor was huge and there's I think someone called the the civil engineer who who's a civil engineer and he plays builder games and then refuse the bridges. Those are multi-million subscriber content creators. Uh those are do they'll do like five 6,000 wish lists. I've been banned from all the major gaming Reddits for self self-promoting.

[Music] Hi, I'm the internet's Chris Sucowski. That was Thomas Salah, a brilliant designer for games of independent variety. Now, I interviewed game developers every year as part of my inside conference. And I'm going to present to you a full interview with Thomas in just a moment. But if you're interested in more interviews with more game developers, I invite you to purchase the inside conference full pack, which I'm linking down below. It's on sale now for the summer sale that I'm running. I also have many courses such as my wish list invisibility class on the deepest discounts you're going to find all year. So, I hope you enjoy this conference, this little preview that you can kind of wet your appetite with. I trust that you're going to enjoy it and I hope that you take a look at some of the other offerings. Thank you. I am uh Thomas I make uh games. I'm a what say solo dev. I don't know that's a malleable term but uh I have been making

games by myself for the last six years. First was the Falconer, which was an Xbox Series X launch title, if that's a claim to fame. And I just a month ago released Bullwark Falconer Chronicles, which is a citybuer. Uh before that, I've been a modder, applied game developer. I even made gamification for corporations. I've done a lot of weird stuff. Made PSVR uh uh stuff for Sony even. Uh but now I'm a solo indie dev. The reason I wanted to talk to you Thomas was um you when you launched Bull Work Falconer Chronicles you used an a method that I talked about I actually talked about it earlier in this conference when I did like a thing uh you know one of my talks was about kind of the new Steam meta and what you did was you basically built an evolving demo for your game and it was the the the the center of the marketing was based around this demo. So can you kind of describe how how your marketing scheme worked? What happened there? Well, um that it

was a response to that things went uh well the falconer did really well on console but really fared poorly on Steam due to a variety of reasons including myself but including you know timing and stuff. Um and I wanted to one of the things I want I want to do a lot more user testing. So there was this discussion we're going to do early access or whatever. Um uh and I had a long thought about it and I wanted something that's uh I a bunch of reasons, but I wanted something that's low stress cuz I'm by myself, that's low impact. Um and that didn't have, you know, when you do early access, there's a lot of, you know, you you get reviewed, you get user reviews, you get commercial reviews. It's like a launch. I didn't, you know, I just I just wanted to [ __ ] around and build up a community and, you know, get I make weird experimental games, so I don't make Manor llords. I I that's amazing. I I make weird [ __ ] Uh so for me it was

quite important to get uh some sort of uh user testing going on and I thought well I can do a demo. I didn't do that before and I'll just fiddle with the demo for a year, you know, see what happens. Uh, and keep updating it because I did that at the relaunch of Falconer and I had a a past in modding which on Steam had a really lovely community back in 2012 for Skyrim. I did some mods that had millions of users uh millions of downloads back then and people come in and there'll be like this vibe of co-creation where you go, "Oh, can you do this? can you do that? And it was really positive and fun. I thought, oh wow, that's I really want to get back to that. So I thought maybe if I don't ask money. So I thought if you have a really bare analysis is let's not have money in this equation, let's people just play it. Uh and then we'll have a you know um we don't have any entitlement there. Uh and so that's that that was the source of

let's do a demo and just evol and then you slap a name on it because you got to market it somehow. Uh, so we did and then literally I think we first did an an a fairly conventional big show like the future game show with a trailer that did really well. I think you know that's what you have to do nowadays. If you don't hit, you know, I heard some Polish guy said if you don't get 10,000 wish lists within a month of your trailer, you're you shouldn't do anything. So it did like double that. It did 25,000 wish lists in a week from the Future Game Show. said, "Okay, the game has there's a life to it." Uh, and then about four months later, five months later in January, we just uploaded demo during Builderfest or, you know, Builder Bash, whatever it's called, and started doing it and sort of rolled by itself and marketed it cuz uh, you got to really make clear to people that this is the thing you want and you want people to interact. And, uh, I think it it did it for about eight months.

And and you and how that was eight months that you uploaded the demo until you launched the game, right?
No, no, no. So I I did what? So that's it started in January, then updated, updated, updated. The idea was to do it for the end of the to like uh Q4. Uh then my dad passed away, got a little sidetracked, crashed the next fest, things started uh and I had to take a break. And that that then it became a more or less conventional demo. And at some point in August, I said, "Okay, we need to stop it because there's a little a bunch of how do you call it one of things that happened is you're getting very stuck with the frontloading. How do you call it the on boarding of the game because the advantage is you get lots of new users like every day people that 80,000 people play that demo. they'd come in, play it, uh, and comment about the tutorial, the controls, and so that got a lot of focus, but you still need to make a game, and I wasn't in the best of shed. So, okay, this is where it's

run its course. Uh, give me some space to just deliver the final content. Uh, so I think in in total, it ran from January to August.
January to August. Well, that's about eight months, right?
It's about eight months. Uh,
and you kept it up the entire time, right?
It was off when I was on holiday when I was on holiday and we with so we I wired productions the publisher. So we sort of figured it out. So maybe we should take it I can't remember if we did take it off for a couple of weeks ahead of next fest and stuff. You start to, you know, play with the dial, see what works. But mostly it was just up and it it worked when it was up. When it was off, people would forgot it. You'd flatline. We were talking about this. Whenever you do anything on Steam, it will always flatline. I remember people coming in my Discord sometimes with their own games. Oh no, it launched and I got a wish list and or you know and now it's flatlined. Is that normal? Yeah, it's normal. It'll and it will flare up again. Uh but when the evolving demo was up, it would always sort of chugging along. Uh um so

that was nice. So, and as long as the moment I stopped updating it is the moment it started to flatline. So that's
Wow. And and how where do you think that came from? Like where where did the wish list and people come from? I mean, did you
I Okay, so the the first big one came from just the announcement. So that was 25,000 wish list. Um and then we did a bunch of smaller shows uh and and everything just did a bunch and of course the demo was there quite a lot of people. So Sparcat did a small video on it. He did two videos on it. Uh uh so a lot of the big builder streamers tried it out. Oh wow, it's super weird but interesting and that just every time it got quite a lot of wish list because people could go and play it and wishlist it or and you know there's maybe that even the secondary be you have a demo that's being evolved and people every streamer got the message every content creator and and that built a lot of confidence with people go oh that's

quite interesting they're actually building these guys here talking about it. Um uh so it's it just you know you get all these little plateaus and it it just worked uh more or less up to next fest which when life got in the way but uh uh yeah it just it's little steam train.
So what happened when you uh what when did you do Steam Nextfest? Sorry. So we did so uh uh so we did next fest uh in June because we got some uh we got some indications that would be good even though it was off the meta as it were. It was too soon. Um and then my dad had passed and then the mix failed in LA. I was stuck in LA a week before NextFest or two weeks in that period. There was no other marketing opportunities. uh and it sort of crashed out and then we just made a call. Okay, just let's just do do it. It's what happened and it was okay but it didn't

it should have shined or it should have you know fulfilled its potential up until then. Um uh and it it didn't and I wasn't there to manage it and do all the updates the weeks before it and stuff like that. Uh, so it did okay, but it's, you know, it's dangling somewhere at the bottom of the top 50. Uh, when even back then it had like 50,000 wish lists. So it was, it's the classic mistake. You shouldn't do even if steam says we're going to feature you in the trailer and stuff like that. That means nothing. Just do it the three months ahead of that because that's what we thought we, you know, we discussed. Well, we never had Steam me. We we want to feature your game. you go, "Yeah, but it's not meaningful." Uh, yeah, it's nice. It's nice. It's not to work toward towards Steam, but it doesn't move the needle. Um, unless you're like the first five games they stream. Uh, then it can, but I I in general, just stick to the [ __ ] meta and do it really short

before launch. So, that
next test before you release. Yeah.
Yeah. So, that was a mistake. So I think we lost quite a lot of momentum there and then yeah like I said my dad died and I said okay we need to pause it some sort and then update slowed and then so it had a really good I' followed four months where it was just going [ __ ] well sorry for swearing
don't worry we're all adults here so
we're all that wellness that that was post Steam NextFest or that four months
that was all before NextFest so after next we little added wish list but that was mostly classical marketing you know events interviews big content creators digging the game uh the demo got up and down but it was used like a regular demo uh as I wasn't developing the demo it say just a regular demo and just building the rest of the game
yeah did you see the same people come back over and over in your community

every time you'd update that demo say oh I love the new update
uh some do it's a weird case so for some people that it there's people that comment. So, oh, I have 150 hours in the demo. Uh, we had people like that say that like after launch where we publish that might want to, you know, close down the demo. Uh, so it we have the people it has it's not a I don't want to make I have special weird opinions about not wanting to make grindy long games. So, it's it's it's a nice unique 10-hour go build whatever you want. There's going some content. So, uh, but some people, yeah, they went crazy. We even made a trailer out of one of the users that made like an a ridiculous he had a bug and if someone sent me a save file, I'll ask send me your save file so I can look at what's bugging out. And I'll load it up in Unity. It was like my fresh 4090 RTX was crashing on what this guy had made. It was like, okay, I need to make trailer out this. This is ridic. So someone had literally Minecraft the entire world. Uh so yeah, people went

crazy. So that's that that's nice. And um I think the other thing that happens is people like the authenticity. I think the Baldersgate guy was tweeting this a couple of days which was the you know the discord of the day. Uh this um the people like talking to developers and not to marketeers.
So from the evolving demo people know and it's gone bad a couple of times when they would ask me something on the steam forums. I I still always answer unless I'm away then someone from the Polish will go but I will always answer the question which is tiring which sometimes gets a bit testy but mostly is really friendly and people just appreciate it.
Yeah.
They get crankier when you don't respond because they think they can just yell into the void but when you're there like hey I'm still here. They're like oh I better look look my best.
Well I've had some people go oh yeah well I don't like the game but you're really inspirational. Which is okay. I'll take that as a win. Uh so it's uh and it's I don't know. I like

interacting with I want to get back to a sort of a positive and that's very hard to do on Steam because there's no the tools aren't there to do positive community building. Uh but they're on Discord, but you know, I've seen it happen on Steam. Uh because it's a motivator and keeps you sane and it cushions uh negative blows or releases or whatever.
Yeah. So when when you launched, how did it go? Like what was the you know sales? I mean we don't have to mention what happened. Was it good?
Yeah, it was good. It was good. It's it's it launched uh because this is so so it had a the game always had a really high follower to wish list ratio or low. So a lot more followers compared to the wish list. So like less than one in n like it started off during the evolving demo it was one in seven. So uh so seven followers for every wish list I guess or no the reverse. So a really positive uh high amount of followers and it still has uh a lot of followers. Um

just for folks at home who don't know typically we say or I my math is 10 10 to one. So I just take the follow count multiply by 10 you typically get that.
But that is really good and and my theory on something like that is
you you were doing so many updates followers get notifications when you do things that aren't
Yes. sales or wish list just news and so I bet your communication style frequent updates then people like I better follow this game I want to get the latest that's my my
I think it's part that I think people also like to follow games that are very active uh you don't the problem is you don't get a lot of feedback in Steam if it's good or right so you post post a blog and you get nothing you get 50 likes that's it so there's the tools aren't there to do it uh but so I don't know exactly but the follower it was always one in eight one in nine at launch because of that more but it started really low and I heard someone said one in 15 is the norm now because it's you know with Tik Tok wish list and so it's dropped a bit um

so uh the the launch itself the cool you know the only thing I can say nowadays you can look up on game analytic and just do all the sales predictions and it beat that with double digits uh for the amount of wish list it had uh for the amount of followers you know which is the public number uh so it did really Well, you know, it's always nice if something goes stratospheric, but you know, that's apparently not the type of games I make. So, it's found its audience and uh um it's done enough sales that, you know, I can work on it for this year, maybe even next year, uh and just expect keep it evolving because I I like doing that. Um uh so it's it's been a really good launch. It's a it's it's sitting at 80% uh 81% like uh it's going to end somewhere in between, right? 79, but people like it for its weirdness and and the people that like it absolutely adore it. So, it's it's it's I always make contentious stuff where you go, "Oh, the controls are weird. This not." But what it's done, it's done brilliantly. And the evolving demo is it's delivered a very I would

say boringly predictable launch
which is which is
Yeah. Because I mean what a lot of people think is okay you spent a year or so marketing pre you know before you launched you had a demo where you put up a lot of content a lot of people assume oh that means people are going to burn out on the game they're going to get tired of it. Do you think that was the case?
I think I I think uh I think we that we left the demo on just to be honest so that people could try it because it's experimental. See if it fit. uh because you know I don't want I I want to focus on that community because that's long term rather than get everybody in and pissing over it who might have think that the game is something it's not. Uh so that honest communication really was a high so that might have drained some burned out some people who otherwise would have bought it and not refunded it. Um but uh uh

I I I think it on the whole it's it's uh it it surely it we've you could you would always say what it should have we should have done more or not do the demo or quit the demo but uh no I think it's done good. It's it's it's it's literally the prediction plus 20%. It's like okay I'll do that is what you get.
Yeah. And just to clarify, just to clarify, I don't know if everybody caught it, you left the demo up even after you launched. Like
it's still up.
Still up. Like
it's still
even I will recommend demo superfan here will say, "Hey, hey, pull the demo the week of or two weeks before." No, no, no. You just went all out and just said,
"We went all out." Yeah. Yeah. Because we did the evolving. It's now part of the, you know, you have to be, you can't [ __ ] around and then, oh, now we're going to do the the sort of opportunistic marketing and remove it. Um, no, it's up and people still play it and it's still, you know, it did a lot. It's it it didn't double, but they got a

lot of wish list after in the launch week. So, a bunch just up and then because people said, "Oh, you'll make 60,000 extra wish lists in the week of release." And I got, "No, no, you only have 110. It's not going to." And it happened. It's like It just materialized.
You launched with 110 wish list and you got another
I think it's it's now 170 or something. Oh, and it it launched at 120 115 because it went so quickly when when is this law uh but it was just going up. So it added 50 I think solidly after and then 30 before or something. Um, uh, but it's it's, uh, I think the the thing I'm most proud of or the most that gives me joy is that it's all being a very solid graph. And I've seen so many games launch where, you know, oh, we have a lot of wish list and they're so hung up about that number. Uh, uh, and then they launch and it doesn't sell. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't reach a velocity. It doesn't lead, you know, you don't end, you don't leave the launch week

with 500 user reviews, but with 50. that you see them happen. And I thought that I think my going in I wanted to have that slow machine where you go, you know, like if you really simmer and cook it, yeah, slow cook it, uh that you'll have a more dependable launch. Uh I think I think that worked.
Why Why do you think so? Because what what I see sometimes are those games launch and 5% of their wish list convert. Why what's your theory as to why some of these games have lower conversion rates? I have no I I have no idea what the uh I don't I I don't follow all the conversion rates uh uh uh but uh uh definitely above that uh I think some there's a number somewhere that says 75 in the first I don't know anyway uh it I think it did very good that you know hours people spend in the game so it's like six hour median or something which is pretty good for an indie game. Um I don't why don't some people

I think there nowadays you you have you know people talking about Tik Tok wish lists where you have just you just go viral and then people just like the game and they're not invested in the game. Um uh I think I think that's and then you sort of misassume that that's going to convert really well or that uh sometimes it does because you have three 300,000 wish lists. your steam visibility is going to be fantastic. Uh so sometimes it does but you know I I I'm not a racing horse in that sense. I'm you know I work and then I work at it and then did better than the third game. Maybe it will do better even but uh I don't know I that is I have I there's been a lot of surprises this year of games that failed to lift off. Um I I people are just
Here's my theory. This is this is my theory.
Yeah. Yeah. I want to hear your
Tik Tok wish list. Okay. So, some games look amazing like on Tik Tok. You look at them, you're like, "Wow, that's

amazing, but then a lot of those times those devs don't make it live. They don't put their game live like a demo or something." And so people imagine how you play the game and how good it would feel,
but they if they don't do a demo, then people are like, "Okay." And then when it launches, they didn't get enough feedback. And so it looked pretty, but when you actually put your hands on it, you're like, "Ah, this game's not as good as it looked." and that converts and that news spreads really fast. Whereas I think you whatever you did marketing wise was fine but because you had a live demo people could play and be like yeah I trust this now. This is exactly what I see and what it looks like is how it plays.
Well there's no surprise.
Yeah. Well the the surprise I had was we had a lot of comments about tutorials and still do because it's I don't like making tutorials so that's a weakness I've identified. Um but also the controls are weird. Uh I it's a minimalist game. There's no buttons and [ __ ] on the game. Uh that was a huge problem during the evolving demo. We I mean I worked at it, iterated it, smooth

everything out as far as possible. Uh and turned out not to be a major issue at launch. So either it worked that was ironed out. Um and I I think the point I want to make is actually proves your point is the critique I now get is there's not enough game after that. So the long game of the game isn't deep enough or people want people just want more content. They always want more uh because the beginning of the game is so wow this is fantastic. So that is a disadvantage doing a lot of demo because like I said you get frontloaded. You get obsessed with the early part of the game. If I'm really cynical, that's the part that sells. Uh uh because the falconer had a great end game and a shitty early game and that doesn't sell because people want to be mesmerized and then they'll wait and now we can do like an evol making an evolving game. Uh but mostly I think it's it's it's uh it does work that way. When you put something live, people will play it and they will find the the good and the bad of it. in

the in the end, you can't fake your way to success. I think that's that's honestly uh uh with the Falconer that didn't have them that looked great, but was really an artsy niche 1990s style controlled stick flyer, which was a dead genre and was dead for a reason. Uh a demo would have exposed that earlier. Uh whereas Bullwark is exactly what it set out to be. It's an experimental organic builder that's unlike anything you've seen. Thus, it's also confusing. This is also weird, but it is genuinely and that gets genuinely gets people excited. Uh I
I think those builders people just want the builders. They're they're they're willing to put up with a lot of stuff if you allow them to have this like city like that guy that built Minecraft basically.
Yeah. and and people people want uh well it's um I think the the the full the fun thing about bull work I think the best

thing about it if you were if you see someone struggle at it because you boot up the game and the controls are weird or they don't and I don't it's a it's you have to you know I've just said just discover what the game works and you see people discover and stumble you still go no no build it there you're you're just not seeing it it's a great title to look at it's making people go oh I would build on that mountain Why aren't you building on that? So, it's like Minecraft and people go, "Oh," and then they go out and buy it
because they saw someone struggle. I I go to Fuse and I see streamers. No, this isn't for me. People go, "Oh, no, we should have done this and that." Then, you know, you've got an interesting title on that side. Um
that that is so ingenious. That's why I think these builder sandbox style games do so well because it's not like, "Oh, I saw the story. I saw the end boss. Okay, I know what it is." You can play it mentally and then you want to go play it yourself.
Yeah. And what what I have the mechanics are hooked and and I can see the flow of it of launch and then people burn out of your game of little bite because it's

it's not a AAA game with 100 people making content. Uh but they'll come back and every time I now make an update or better people go I'll do an announcement. Hey people, uh, I'm doing this closed beta for the new updates that's coming in next week or something and and I'll be and people won't have and there's like a 100 likes like you okay people are just waiting it's okay I'm not you know I'm done with bull work for a little bit but definitely coming back when so it's it's got a uh it's nice and and you proved it this makes me sleep at night you know it's like okay this we got this many wish lists the steam machine said it will do this much sale we beat that uh uh which is significant uh but it's doing it you know the machine works and I've never seen that happen uh and it means the stuff you do or some carless it all works you know if you if if you get the numbers and if you get the the slow wish list rather than the the cheap wish list you will sell and you'll be you know you'll be in new and trending for a week

and this is why I I think the demo is best because there's no hiding with a demo like you can fake your way onto TikTok a little bit like it looks good but it plays bad or you could be funny on Twitter Twitter and get likes and stuff like that. But with a demo, when you market with a demo front and center,
there's no faking it. It's like, here's the game. Try it. And and it's, like I said, it's a it's a literal steam engine. So, it will chug along and do what it needs to do. And if it doesn't, it won't, and you'll know. So, it's also like a canary in the coal mine if it's if your demo isn't rolling. Um, and you need to give it, like I said, you need to give it a kickstart somewhere. You need to do some classical marketing where you get a kickstart and then
and you just to interrupt your your kickstart was at future games show
future game show I think it's 20 I don't know 2021 or something or 20 I it's all blur but uh a few years ago and we did a 50-second uh trailer announcement trailer looks

really good good voiceovers and it did 20 it literally I woke up and I said 20,000 wish lists I I went to the publisher. Is that normal? No, that's not normal. Uh so that that's uh that then that was I think back in the days when shows could still deliver that on a 50-second trailer. Uh that was good. So I I'm also a strong believer if you know make a trailer, put it out, um if it doesn't run, you should re-evaluate where you're at.
It's it's all pretty brutal.
Yeah. But it's it's it's uh
one question just to roll back a little bit. You mentioned the demo and the tutorial was awful in the beginning. And this is a a common complaint people have with the demo centered approach where they say, "Oh man, if I put out a demo, I'm going to and it sucks. That's it. My game's dead." Um what happened? Like did did you see any difference when you had

this demo with a terrible tutorial versus not anything like that? Oh, people would come in. It's it's it's a psychological thing. So, people would come in and and say, "Oh, no, your tutorial sucks. Your control sucks. It's horrific." Uh, even get into get abusive about it. It took me a while to get my head around it. If you get that, that's also a positive. Not that people trash it, but if they're sort of getting, you know, if you get a comment, I want to love this game. That's also a good comment because that's a frustration you can they asking you to take away the frustration. Uh so there's all kinds of bumps and uh but I I think on it's all cheap advice but it comes out does it look good? You know the demo that's quite important at least look really it needs because people will initially go oh I I want the fantasy this game is selling me and you try it and then get stuck but they still want that fantasy. So that that is if you don't have that

then they'll just go oh this they won't even comment because it sucks and it will give you whatever leave they'll leave the little you know uh rude uh [ __ ] comments on your Steam forum you know where it's one word uh but if if you get this five pages I've played the game and these are my thoughts about it that's interesting you know that's that's you need to work with that and talk to those people and it's a learning process I thought I was good at it I got the bigger is it but there were a few times where I go I don't know if I can deal with this because people are so rude but you just have to go it's not
and you fixed it though you fixed a lot of things that they
so much and then there's stuff I didn't do but like you know the thunder stuff is the camera is fixed to towers you build because you're rotating that is frustrating a lot of people because they wanted the WD camera you know they wanted their muscle memory and at post after post muscle memory I have muscle memory I thought I'll just make some fake because it won't work. I'll just make a little movement on the WD keys of

the camera. Just not far enough to [ __ ] up my geometric system, but and all the complaints went away like snow cuz people had they could push the button and something happened they recognized even though it wasn't useful, they were happier. So there's a lot you can fix by listening to people. Um, and I I think if I had the energy and and had done it for longer and and and maybe made a second demo for the late game, uh, uh, that made would have made the game even better. I'm basically doing that post launch where I'm just taking all the feedback and improving the game. Uh, but that might have been something in if I'm do it again, I'll I I might multip like do different cohorts where you have, okay, this is cohort. This month we're just doing uh on boarding and then in two months we're going to do you get a pre-made city and we're going to just do uh you know the strategy stuff. See if it's deep enough and stuff like that.
Amazing. Um just to back up a little bit

um you got your start in modding. You mentioned that you got million.
What's it what's it like modding? I think that is such a secret way into this to get good. Well, I do you know that a lot of so I was I had a this was in the days when I was still with a studio the studio that's doing moonlight peak this uh bats farming cute game that's got like hundreds of thousands of wishes that I founded that studio I still we did work for hire so we were work I I think 2012 might have started up our first PlayStation VR game for Sony and stuff like that so I was working as a dev and creative lead and stuff and not liking the response so I I'd be frustrated at night go modding. Turns out a lot of modders are are game devs that get frustrated and then at night let's see if we can [ __ ] up this Bethesa game. I I found some of the most popular modders for Skyrim. I was modding Skyrim were all gaming professionals. Uh they were just having fun and doing stuff

flexible in a way without teams and scrum and stuff. So, I did modding is is very interesting because there's uh especially if you I so the moon path to Elsewhere was like the jungle mod for Skyrim like the first one. It's still one of the even though it's a weird meshed again I make weird [ __ ] I thought I looked at Skyrim I'll make a jungle I can do that and then I made a desert and stuck a story in it. Um modding is interesting because you it's very fragmented communities so you have to be in many places at once. Uh, and there's a lot of history that if you don't respect the fact that it's free, and this was in the time where Bethesda announced its paid modding thing, that got the pitchforks out and stuff, and things got a little bit nasty. Um, uh, so it's it it I think the community itself was fantastic and uh it the workshop on Steam, so the where you mod for Skyrim actually has a a timeline

forum. So it has a forum where the comments roll down,
okay,
uh, continuously. You go to a workshop mod and the the comments for that are different than the regular forums and that works so much better because hateful comments get away. It's just a timeline like every social media on earth. So you can actually have social media level of engagement. can't post pictures which is but it's if if I've ever talked to someone felt can can you please transparent that forum rolling down very simple timelineesque form to games so we can have a rolling discussion and have hey I just woke up what are we doing today actually let us engage with gamers in the place that they're gaming and not the the forums it's such a frustration uh uh for the stuff like I do is to to use the what they now present as forums which is actually
terrible terrible. What gameplay design

lessons did you learn while modding?
Uh oh no. What gameplay design? Jesus Christ. Uh I think modding is experimenting. It's just having fun. Uh, and it it taught me that you get into best flows if you're just if you make tools where you can [ __ ] throw [ __ ] together, you know? Uh, that's what the Skyrim tools were. Just, oh, I'll make this and then, oh, I'll put some it's it's it looks very complex, but it's actually quite an elegant the the what's it called? The creation engine Betheesta has. Uh, and you can make stuff really really fast. Uh uh and I figured out I like making so I spent years after that making my own pipeline in Unity. That's why they like me on the side. Uh so I can make stuff really fast. So bullwark which is a it's a doing well whatever it took two years

to make. Uh so it's it's you know that's that's uh that's nice. So I like speed. So modding showed me that.
Wow. Wow. Yeah. I think I think more designers I' I've got a blog in the works. It's I keep saying that I'm going to do it, but it's all about all these people who have hit games now that kind of started in modding and it's I I just think it's so underrated and I think more devs it's rather than building some game that takes you like six years and it's your first game,
hit the mods, go mod something. I think it's so much smarter. It it's it's in well I've seen mods commercial mods that would made more back in the day if I had like not as you know I did a mod for scar I think over all the [ __ ] platform it did millions of downloads it did like nearly a million on Steam it did two million then people started translating it it it you know there's like if you type in moon path to elsewhere in Skyrim Nexus you get 500 mods that took all the arts or made the

fixed version or because I don't do it anymore. People are still updating it. The S SE Xbox special edition version of it's it's it's insane community that just will take what you do and you just need to give it to them and then they'll do new stuff. Uh uh it's it's I I don't know how you monetize that. Perhaps you shouldn't.
I No, don't. I I think it's just it's like college. You're learning. It's like you're learning in college and you don't make much during college. So it
it's but it's also learning. It's it's also what I said it's sort of in a sense not entitled which is a problem with when you put money into a system. Uh uh does you have an honest relationship with your audience which in in I honestly believe one of the survival path is to be a performer as a developer. You know do the pirate software thing is is going to be more and more common. Uh but that's actually

the same thing that's the balders gate you know publishing director said is you know be it have an authentic relationship with your audience uh that is the you know you have to create an audience but uh that is I think that's a secret source as well you know and modding has that you know a lot of what you're doing where you put something up you change it you build this demo live in front of everybody this sounds a lot like early access why didn't you just do early access I I still ask myself that to be honest. So I don't have a lot of confidence in I I think early access intimidates me because you're asking for money. So that creates a certain uh u well it's also it's not how do you call it? It's not how do you consequent free let's let let me put it like that. I don't know what I said at the GDC talk but for me mostly it is if you [ __ ] up your early access you'll get punished and it'll be a permanent you know the user re user reviews remain the you know IGN will

review it if you're lucky and that will remain and that is your stigma so that's one major and now looking back I can say okay so for a dinky small indie game by you know experimental citybuer um what's the best outcome to have the best launch period, you know, have the most so you have the biggest longtail and then solve your issues or do an early access that's always also going to give you slightly less exposure because it's just one of the early accesses and we'll revisit it when it's done, but then it's already had some exposure. So you're for me it's smearing out the exposure and visibility you're going to get over your early access period and then you get a second launch which is nice. Uh but the first one is already your launch. So if you [ __ ] up and I'm afraid to [ __ ] up. I wanted something that's safe. Uh so and a demo is fairly safe. You know, I I now someone asked me as a

maybe even do like an itio demo first where you polish it up and then bring it to Steam uh with the lessons you've learned. So go from one fairly safe sandbox to the next to the next before you launch and then you keep validating it. So and I did the early access I think if it's launched now it's done quite well. So it's not a major hit but it's it's definitely up there. So it wasn't new and trending for a week. uh and it would pop back up and it's like wow it's still uh uh it's in there you know fighting the millennia which launched on the same day it was it's was sort of fun that wouldn't have happened with an early access uh uh and then then you would have a title that would have sold moderately well and I know what happens when you sell moderately or below moderate you go into the [ __ ] bucket in the Steam algorithm and even though they say it never happens you can't fight your way out of that you can only fight from a position of strength and you know improve your numbers if you

have a base where Steve says I will give you daily deals and opportunities and visibility because you sold. So I I think in hindsight I think early access is very dangerous. It's great for manor lords or where you can say ah we you know we're still building it but if you have 3 million wish list you can afford to lose 500,000 from people to go
you can do whatever the [ __ ] you want and I think if it had 300,000 wish list I might be in inclined to do early access because then you could still lose a third and be top of that week uh or you know get the visibility but if you launch it around 100 150,000 wish list which sounds weird because five two years ago So that would be the high mark. That's now the low mark for commercial success. But being at the low mark, you don't take any risks and and and and early access is a risk. Um
I I agree with you. I think I know you're it sounds like you're kind of like second thinking yourself like, "Oh man, maybe I don't think I don't think I think you did the right move. You just

you never know these things. You just never know."
Yeah, I think so. I think I think um when you see all these predictive data tools that now exist, you can go into game analytic and get a prediction about your game sales for the first month. Uh and I know now how to do it, but it's reasonably accurate. And if you beat it, you can go, okay, we're in the system. Then you can go into the revenue projector for a year and you go, okay, it gives you data to the data becomes a uh foundation, not a guess, you know, because I've matched the data. Now I know the data is so I know okay can we this and we can look at other people how did they go from the multiplier from the first year from the first month and increase it over the first year uh and and people say oh but people think I've had one person ask why did you go in early access if you've got a road map where other people go no yeah we're just doing customer support you bought something and it's getting expanded uh you know it's just going to get bigger and better uh and they'll come back and uh it keeps you a live. Uh, it's a lot

of work, but it's it's uh I think Yeah.
Well, what you can do now, I mean, yes, it's a lot of work, but every time you do a major update, you can go to Steam and say, "Hey, we like a weekend deal or a daily deal. We've got a whole new world or new campaign or something." And they'll they'll give you that featuring. You get tons of money exposure.
I hope so. I think that's that's the next exciting thing when the first update rolls around. We can see that there's some of that already. So, I can't confidentiality. Uh but uh we'll see how it does. You know, that's my next exciting thing. How how re-engaged is a big is a is the next big sale is the next update going to be uh because we can bring it's all and I'm doing a lot of I'm doing them really rather fast. So the first one is coming next week. So that's six months or seven months after release first big content update. Um
awesome.
It's I don't know. We'll see. But that's, you know, I I like that because it's up to me because I make stuff. That's my job. And by making stuff, I

can improve my odds rather than uh, you know, handing it to some gods of, you know, let's try early access. No, no, this we're in a solid place. We're just going to work hard and then it's going to make some money.
Yeah. I And I think to to people who are watching this and and wondering like, should I do early access? I I say before you make the big decision, do the demo. Like because a lot of people I hear do early access because they say like, "Oh, I want to I want to find out if my game's good. I think if I release into early access, I can get that feedback." Don't do that. You can get
access is not for It's not for feedback. It's not
It's feedback's bad. Your sales are going to be bad. Well, and I I think also the expectation for early access is it's the you need well, okay, I have a road map, but you need an entire team of people managing the early access where you go whereas a demo I I always say I'm a cockroach. I I now feel like a cockroach on Steam. I've got my little demo. I'm [ __ ] around. I'm not

particularly fond of all the rules like going early access or, you know, I just I get to do what I want. Uh that's a really good place to be. You know, you're nimble and nothing sticks. Uh well, now it does because we launched, but uh it's it's I don't Yeah, early access is I I I I don't think it's for indies. Let's put it like that. For smalltime indies like me, it's not it's not a survivable situation.
I 100% agree with you. I I totally agree. And I I think it's so smart to be solo smalltime indie cockroach mode. It's so good. I'm gonna I'm gonna pop over and do a couple questions from the Q&A from the community here. So, um, the first one, and I had this question, too, and I meant to ask this. Ashan asks, "How how did you limit the demo? Like, how did you what features did you cut from the demo so you didn't give away the whole game?"
Oh, well, I actually gave to May too much. I think in hindsight, a little bit too much. We did the someone that the

producer at Wired said, "Well, this how Manor Lords does it. You don't have a save button." and there's a limit to what you can build. So that's pretty good. Uh so we just did that. There's no save button in the demo and at the moment it's 13, but for most of the evolving demo you can make 50 towers which is actually can make quite impressive stuff. Uh and that meant that streamers could actually you know spend one or two hours in game and building out stuff. Beyond that most of the content I made I just chucked in to get some incidental. So, and and the the theory was the how do you call it? The minmaxers, the people that would spend, you know, mining your demo for more play time, um they're either ambassadors or they're going to buy the game. You know, uh if you're going to spend 150 hours in in in a demo, um and you don't buy it, I'm sure some people burned out, but you'll come back when I do some deals. I'm not updating the demo now. So, I'm not adding all the new content to the demo.

So the demo is now 13 towers. Uh you can't save uh and it's just it now people complain, oh there's only a few hours of content in there or you know I go. Yeah. Okay. Uh but you can try out if the controls work and then you can look at screenshots. Okay. Can make that.
So uh everybody listening one thing everybody listening the demo is still live even though the game's for sale. Try it out. See how see still live. Uh um we it's not live on console because there's the console paths from the the the funnel from the demo to the is not great on both PlayStation and Xbox. So you just basically have two separate products that are competing for visibility. So there we decided not to do the demo. Plus the support for two pathways on console is horrific and I'm just one person. But on Steam, yeah, the funnel is let that and people uh you can see it sort of stabilizing and it's it's also nice for me if you make experimental games and you buy yourself I always have to I did that in the talk

uh safeguard your psychological sanity. Uh so for me the demo is also a a guard wall to keep the people that really don't like the game out of user reviews out of my community you know the people oh this is [ __ ] this is not how I build a game is supposed to be uh they get to try and demo and go to buy this and that that keeps everything nice and positive you know and like I said my number one critique now from there's not enough game uh there's quite a lot of game uh uh and more is coming. I can deal with that. That's fine.
Speaking of not enough game, um this is one of the next questions is that first five minutes you got to hook them. What did you add design-wise in that first beginning to to make them want to keep playing?
Well, I haven't. So, what have the first demo I had? So, there's a flying around and exploration mode where you discover new stuff and do a little bit of

fighting and stuff. And then there's the building mode, which is the meat of the game. Uh, but logically, you start off in the air and pick a spot where you start building. So, that was the first demo. Uh, that had a really weird long average play times. Uh, so people had like an hour and a half in the demo just [ __ ] around, flying around. Uh, that apparently works great in a demo because people just like exploring, but it's not great as an onboarding mechanism. So, for at some point I switched where you start on the ground with some pre-built like the classic tutorial. Uh you some pre-built buildings and then you get shown how to make something cool and then you get to fly around and build on other islands. Um but that that's locked out. A lot of people thought, oh, this is incredibly locked. Uh so that then become a problem. I need to force. But so there's this I don't know if I might have should have left it flying around cuz the the play time dropped to you

know 45 minutes after that. Um but there is I haven't figured that one out. But there's something with giving too much freedom gives you also a false sense of what people are doing because there's just going to be a few people that going to fly around for 10 hours and look at stuff.
Uh and that's going to offset all your data. Uh or freedom is good. I I haven't figured that out. But that was an interesting thing I saw where uh once you start limiting stuff, people think the limit is the game.
Uh uh which is sort of okay. Uh yeah, that's I haven't I don't have a I haven't analyzed down to what the result of what what you know I I couldn't AB test that. Uh
just just to back up real quick, you said in your uh when you were talking about the demo, so it dropped the medium play time dropped to 45 minutes.
Yeah. No, the average, which is even weird, average was like hour and a half. So medium is all is the the you know the longer where they filter out the

5-second gamers. So that uh No, but it was the average. So it was already it's still quite high. But uh yeah, it dropped when I changed the tutorial from being a completely free tutorial. So [ __ ] around and you know [ __ ] around and find out to something which was more guided because people were getting confused. So what happened is that some people would come in and complain I don't know understand what I'm doing it's just flying I don't understand but the data was telling me lots of people are flying around for a really long time or not flying around or building and doing stuff in the freedom that it offers. Uh so I chose to to lock it down. So, they first show you how to build and then show you how to fly, which from a game design perspective makes sense and it left fewer confused people, but I might have lost some people. Then again, 80,000 people played the [ __ ] demo, so I don't think I lost a lot of people from that. Um,
yeah.
Uh, so it's it's um Yeah. Well, I think I mean part of that is like I've done the analysis that you can go to how tomarketame.combenchmarks

everybody on the call um and where I track you know how how are typical numbers for various things and one of the things is demo median play time not average people always look at the average it's the median I find that above 25 minutes is a good sign and this just you know wish lists are great but I like to look at all the data to see whether this game's on target to do well or not and Thomas Like you had 20,000 wish lists when you launched the trailer. You have 45 minute median play time. You got up to 100 plus thousand wish lists. All those are signs that something good is going to happen. It's not just one metric. It's all of them together. And you had so many that were just like hot.
I Well, I think it's never been hot. Well, I think because it dropped
You're hot. Thomas, you're hot. You did it.
I did. Well, it's very solid. So I think if I hadn't had the personal issues and done it longer we but and you know that's something I've now feel I have

enough base that I can remedy this and you know uh uh if you play this game in a year it's people will revisit it because it's that weird game and you can't find the fantasy that I think that's the thing I'm you can still I think in a year you still go on Steam and not being find a game that does what Bullwark does you know uh because it's just weird and It's it's hard to replicate. So it's it's that's a fun place to be at. So yeah, so it's but metrics wise, I think a lot of those things, yeah, if you if you have a lot of things going and it's it's it's about the solidity and you know, just cooking it up slowly and seeing it add and add and add, uh that's that for me is is the outcome. Um if you go
Well, go ahead. So what was that?
No, no, no. Okay, so speaking of slow cooking, Alex here has a question. Um, he's wanting to build a demo live before

going to early access. Very similar to you. When you uploaded a new version, how did you market that new demo version? How did you tell the world, hey, we've got a new version. It does this then this.
Oh, at at some point because I work I'd make I still make mistakes. So launch day, I'd made a mistake, updated the version, and the achievements was [ __ ] And I did another one five minutes later which people got and then I'll do him a little message. [ __ ] got updated. [ __ ] I made a mistake. And that's how I did it. And if I just It's just me. At some point you're tired. Oh, I made an update. You play it. Oh my god. It's no reving. Okay, fix it. Update again. Sorry, folks. [ __ ] got updated. This is what I did wrong. Uh, you need to do this and that to fix it, whatever. Um, I think even though I you complain about Steam for just use it as a social medium, you know, just put a sticker thing and you have all these different updates messages. Uh, the big ones the publisher did with marketing. But in the end, the funniest one was just me, hey, there's another update. I I do keep a change list like a to have fun. Uh, let me know if anything

bugs out because this is a big one. So that's
Did you Where did you post those updates? Was that on the Steam forums or an update like
Oh, always an update. Always an update. I I stopped doing it on the forum because it's the forum is for talking to people and people just don't read the forum as a form of entertainment. But if you you do you have the small major updates, you have these different grades of updates. Uh and I think a regular update uh I I try to sort of respect because you don't want to piss off Valve and know mess up their system. Uh so not do the major updates every week. Uh but if I did something major, I'd use that. If it's just a daily update, that would be a small update at the the Friday update, which you know where you collected a lot of stuff was a regular update. So that would get another item on the front page of the Steam. Uh and then I'd stuck some some and then regularly I'd stuck some okay this is a change. by the way, I'm working on this cool new battleship and stick some

screenshots in there and people would get, you know, that that'd be fun because people see see you thinking about it. Um, and and then then they could see it a couple of days later. Oh, I stuck this in. Awesome. I've got I'm gonna I'm gonna preview a question and then give a warning because Joshua asks, you know, he released a tech demo and it's kind of not doing so great and he wants to know how to update it. Uh, one thing I didn't know, Josh, and and if you could do this, Joshua, did you when you say tech demo, do you mean you launched an early access? Could you pop this question the answer in your in the Q&A tab? Are you saying you launched a Q a early access demo or did you launch just a demo? What when you say release, what do you mean? Because that'll really change the answer. So, I'm not Don't answer that yet, Thomas, because I want to find out what Josh what he means by like a release, a tech demo release because I think he's kind of stuck like he released the demo and it didn't do as well as he thought. So, I I'll get there in a second. Um, what about Benjamin

asks about modding? Uh, does can you mod bull work?
Um, you you someone modded it already. They did they do Unity. you can open up really easily and change the code apparently. I didn't know that till someone did it in the Discord. Oh no, I locked the cheat sheet. Oh, someone came, did you really put all the demo logs behind one boolean? And I go, yes. And is it this one? Yes. Okay. [ __ ] So people would uh hack the game really fast. Um I think uh we didn't do the workshop yet. It's it's expensive. So I I am a oneman stop but I can't do porting cuz I I get uh like I make the joke there's not not enough writin in the world for someone like me. So I can if I'm focused I can have a lot of fun making games for hours and hours but give me an 80page manual for Microsoft or Xbox or PlayStation how to you know do the achievements and I'll get bored out of my skull. So I have to hire someone to do the porting and I'll have

to hire someone to do the workshop integrations because it's SDK work and API work and playing by the rules and stuff. So it's not fun. Um that is in fact it's expensive but it's also I want to do it well and that would require rewriting quite a lot of the game. So it's been an ongoing discussion. Um uh it would add a lot. It would be one of those things that would might, you know, where one day you go, "Oh, you can multiply just the community just by adding mods." Uh, I I'm just one man, so I first want to do all everything I want to do with the game and then we'll see where the ship ends and and and and if modding is part of that conversation. It's not super ridiculously hard, but um I I want like I said, the game is perfect for doing a Star Wars conversion, but then I need to change how the art is made in the game or you know, sort of all the file names need to make sense and stuff. And again, that's boring work. Uh and it will take me a couple of months, which I don't have at the moment. So, no, but I'd want it to

be
awesome. Um we didn't talk too much. I mean, the future games show where you upload a trailer worked really well. The demo worked really well. What about like social media, PR, press releases, all that kind of stuff. Did any of that stuff take off?
Yeah, it would really I I think W production is has a really solid uh marketing. Uh and you can see that even now with the pickup on, you know, the update is coming. It's um I I think that's all went exceptionally well. Also, compliments to them. Uh, it got into some of the shows. It didn't get into some of the shows. It's how it goes. Uh, was there anything that stood out? I don't think there was anything after the future game. Like that's why I think your announce is your major beat. You know your announc announced demo and launch and everything else is just happy accidents where you know the stars align

and well splatter was huge and raptor was huge and there's I think someone called the civil engineer who who's a civil engineer and he plays builder games and then reviews the bridges. Those are multi-million subscriber content creators. Uh those are do they'll do like five six thousand wish lists when the demo is sometimes but they'll do like three it's like uh the splatter cat video it's still get cuz I'd made a post with people uh cuz I talked to splatter cat explaining so where you know uh how the controls and what uh you know uh and then put my link to my own YouTube channel and still farming people subscribing to my own YouTube channel from splatter gets v uh because it's got 300,000. It's one of this most popular videos from the last months and it's still growing, you know, and I I I've see all this you can see the press debate about, you know, oh, we're going to do guides. So, you can see it in action. A video on

a major content creator will keep providing you wish lists and people because you people will read it because it's entertainment whereas a review a preview it just it's on the front page of I don't know GameSar whatever and then it fades away nobody ever reads it. Um in that sense I think yeah content creators [ __ ] yeah
those YouTube videos last forever. I still get views from a video I made from I was on Jonas Tyroller's channel like three years ago and I still get views from him on that stuff. It it's people say, "Oh, I just saw you on Jonas." I was like that was like four, three, four years ago that I was on there. So yeah, it's so hot.
The the forum is that's why you know I work with Unity love what I do because it's an army of one. that's their bestselling, you know, sells Unity's licenses, I guess. So, they have me up on their well, not last year when we had the troubles. Uh uh but they had me and

I I'm happily do that cuz it's content that's up there. So, and people say, "Oh, no, no, that's in how do you call indie dev marketing to other editor that doesn't work." Um it it for me it's been very successful to be a developers developer because that translates to how you're perceived by the platforms and by other journalists. So it's it's just not a channel. Uh but YouTube in general people just find you. No, I think YouTube is uh I read it not so much. I don't think I've been banned from all the major gaming Reddit for self self-promoting.
So I I gave up. I would it's not it's just it's entertaining to read but it's not a meaningful platform. Tik Tok I have a life. I have kids. [ __ ] it. So I'm on Twitter and uh that's all I do. I do Twitter and uh uh YouTube and I comment on everything I find. That's people tell me not to do that because psychological damage, but I'll talk to

anybody. I'll explain anybody. If they trash my game, I'll come in. I do I'm actually looking at that. I'm actually fixing that. Did you try this and that? And then someone else will come. Yeah, I played it. I thought it was fantastic. So, bam, thread saved. Uh, that is so much work, but I think as a developer, you're the only one that can do it. Uh, you got to do it yourself or your team has to do it.
Great. Great. And did you say that you got covered by Splattercap two times or a couple streamers playing games? He he covered a demo at the builder fest was quite intrigued with what he saw and then he covered uh fairly recently uh with the big stream uh and he said wow this is one of the most unique builder games I've ever played uh and because he's a very smart so he played it and he said and and and he played it for quite a long time I think and he would go in and he he he's exploring how it works uh and then that works with a game that's weird and but He's smart. She go after a

while. I said he gets amazed with the game. Says, you know, there's no other way this could have been than this cuz he understands design.
Yeah.
And that that's fantastic. And it looks great. So, it sells itself. Uh so, it's a weird game to to to see on YouTube. It's good. It's photogenic, I guess.
It's a beautiful game. It's a beautiful game. And you did all the art. Amazing stuff. So, uh I think that's it. I don't want to keep you any longer, but tell people how do they follow you? Uh how do they buy your game? All that sort of thing.
Um I I am on uh I'm at Falconerdev on Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn, Thomas. I'm Where am I? Uh I'm on Discord. There's f just Falconer Discord. You get one of those uh you know uh invite stuff. I'm there all the time. Uh beyond that, that's it. Play my game and I'm on Steam. Uh, someone is saying something about his creator page. I did make my

creator page, but the system is [ __ ] So, it's flipping between my publisher actually put everything in my name, but it's it's uh when you transfer it, it steam that part of Steam is not right in the head. Um, uh, sadly,
don't yell at them, folks, for the creator page link issue. It's a hard thing to do. Yeah, it's it's I don't know, but it works on the Falconer page. Yeah. So, it used to work and then we transferred ownership and now it doesn't work and it's like it's a creator page. It's like doesn't have a timeline. Valve, give me a timeline.
Thank you so much, Thomas. It is so awesome demo. You're you are doing the meta exactly right. So, way to be on way to be on it. So,
you have to fail to succeed, I guess. So, uh,
you're too modest. You're too modest. All right, I'll talk to you all later. See you guys. Have a good day. [Music]