Ubisoft is Falling Hard | 355

[Music] welcome to another episode of Game Dev un chain the number one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host Brandon fam and with me it's that time of the month Ray gram how you doing Ray what's up how you doing I'm here I'm here all right if you guys haven't read the title yes this is the round table news where you get the latest and greatest gain Dev news from the latest and greatest game devs all right as always these are opinions of our own do not try the sue us all right or lease Ray or come at me dog all right going into [Music] it all right R uh so it's been a while actually a lot of happened but let's kind of Benjamin Button this and work from the latest

it's been like a month and a half uh an old flame all right we're talking about Ubisoft oh wow straight out of the gate I mean you starting with that that's kind of crazy I'm going to start with that there's a lot to cover right I mean Star Wars Outlaws I myself was kind of looking forward to that game and it kind of fell completely flat um there was a lot of controversy uh surrounding the the the main character if you're on social media you're you see like the voice actor who is beautiful and then the game character who is not as beautiful let's just keep it like wait say it nicely Star Wars Outlaws Star Wars Outlaws all right I will say some people will say fugly but I will say not as good right but like the gameplay itself at the core at the end of the day it was buggy as [ __ ] I saw actually a meme today where they

were showing Assassin's Creed the um black flag from 2014 AI system where the guy was hiding in the brushes and the the the AI character was like straight up like stop hiding in the brushes I see you you know this straight up and then they in a side by-side comparison with 2024 Star Wars Outlaws it was like straight up Solid Snake right when you're hiding the bushes within two seconds they were like like confused and and and so these are the type of books that unfortunately have become synonymous with triple a gaming day one patch whatever right it's like what is going on how did we go backwards with something that they seem to have figured out 10 years ago with the same exact franchise right oh well similar FR at all my bad my bad my bad I'm skipping ah head to the Yas part of this talk right say so I go to I'm going

Outlaw wise it's a different team complely different team different team I think it was even done in a different engine Black Flag was done in um in Anvil if I remember correctly and I think Outlaws is using snow drop right this is the division team or the studio that delivered well no no not even like snow drop engine is engine that they use all across all across um Ubisoft these days and so like maybe some folks that worked on the division is have helped out on it but but but in some cases it's a completely new team just here's the engine here's the snow drop engine go and make your game with it you know that's how Ubisoft has always worked right like these these teams work at silos with with with um branches of the engine and they make you know they did that there's multiple branches of anvil that have made multiple different Assassin's Creed games and other games um there's the led the Le not the I guess it was called

lead the lead engine which was used for a SPL Splinter Cell right so so you know that's just how they work right um and so yeah like some feature from a million years ago didn't make it into Star Wars Outlaws yeah of course because you know the realities they're one they're not using the same code and two the realities of development you know you're just trying to you're just trying to get that game to work at all you know what I mean right so yeah yeah I mean I well the the troubling thing was that yeah you know at least for this year when Ubisoft kind of kind of laid out what the uh Outlook was going to look like right they only had two major games as kind of like the tent pole and I would say they had a very successful um what what do they call them they they like their own kind of e3 show right um oh

Ubisoft look forward or whatever so they they basically had uh Star War Outlaws which was awesome I I thought it was the demo looked great no you didn't like it okay you saw you smelled the [ __ ] from the beginning yeah like it was like what they you know what they initially showed was like you know a canned thing to show at these these trade shows right super when they yeah but and then when they did like they did like a walkthrough thing like a little bit later I was kind of like you know like in this day and age you're going to make a good-look game right like Graphics wise it's going to look pretty decent um but then what I saw was just the same old thing in in the Star Wars skin you know pretty rapper yeah yeah yeah and so I was just like I don't know I don't know I was I was tempted to buy it um numerous times like yeah I'll like check it out I know some people working on it and stuff but um but overall I was just like it just looked very meh to me it's the formula the formula it's it's you know it's a

formula that they that they follow you know yeah and and this just didn't look inspiring to me but of course it is the name Star Wars on it so you know Star Wars Star Wars is having a rough decade like it it's not having a good last 10 years unless you have respa Disney you think Disney thinks them I think Disney is having some trouble trying to make these uh movie projects uh show projects uh and then Outlaws was supposed to kind of help right with The Branding and I think out of all the major brandings uh Star Wars is definitely having a hard time like even Marvel had a dip right sure right in terms of the movies but like there were some good movies in that post end game I mean you're talking about Spiderman you're talking about uh when you say hard time you're just

talking about less than Stellar quality Affairs reception yeah yeah but what what I interpret that as is like I I think Disney is still counting the money same way I think all the people that are compling they definitely made going no matter what they're like oh it's Star Wars I'm going to go watch or it's Star Wars I'm going to maybe plug into Disney plus let me give Disney their Disney plus mnny and let me watch this thing from front to back and then say it's garbage yeah like you know no they have they have a it's a strong IP like it's super uh redeemable let's say that there's never the flame will never go out like there's always going to be hope right a new hope that it actually won't be [ __ ] right let's just say that uh yeah sure but uh like even what was I doing um so the games the show uh this latest game is definitely a fail

um but I was watching Dune right I watched Dune recently Dune 2 Dune two that was part two part two right and I was like man this is what I mean I know Star Wars was originally inspired by Dune right the books but like in terms of like the cinema right obviously has been quite updated versus the original I was like this is what Star Wars should have went in this direction right I mean they kind of went with that with Rogue one even the TV show The Serious one was like oh man that that I like the dark underbelly world of Star Wars but the movies it's like so I guess Disney s like everything's super saturated it's definitely aimed at which is fine always to kids right but like it's fine but yeah wants to make money it's fine but Dune 2 made me realize like man Star Wars is such a rich Universe they can do so many great things to it and dune 2 was like wow

this is what it should have been like the the latest movie franchise it should have went in this direction I got to watch it I got to watch I haven't watched part two yet it's super it's it really is completes the first movie like in my opinion and it just it's such a simple story that they're telling but it's so effective in in in the setting in in establishing the people um like there's like obviously lately there's been like this movement like oh you can't tell a story without a you know watching a whole 13-hour show or whatever right but then Dune 2 kind of made me realize like this is why you love movies you just like the challenge of condensing that story in three hours in a sitting there's a there's an art form to that it's the same thing as like oh you got to you got to read Game of Thrones 3,000 Pages uh versus just reading a poem right there's something poetic about the movie art form it's like it's there's a reason why it's like condensing this kind of two three-hour art form uh uh window but and dune part two kind

of made me kind of realize that again like this is a non- marel movie and it feels super epic right I was like man it kind of brings me back to Like Gladiator uh you know those that era type of movies not Gladiator to I don't I don't know what to think about glad I hope it does well but like I'm not I don't have my hopes about that man it looks it's like why does danzel sound the same like back in ancient what's going on here that's Z has the same in every movie you at least try you know no no but um you know nobody I I am a huge Gladiator fan yeah and even I was like I was like yo these IM dope I was like these images look dope though the art it's really Scott yeah it's he's Baseline rley Scott yeah looks dope right but then I was like I was not sitting around here saying I need to see a eight or two there's there's no reason

no reason for it there's two there's two Emperors now right the Twins and it totally like took you know back like kind of like Back to the Future formula where they just replace yeah no no no no no no no there was no need for that no need yeah but you know it's one of those things where it's like it's a ridle Scott film where he can have hit or misses right but there's a baseline of quality always and it's like ah you got to give it a chance but yeah outlaw completely I mean they officially said that it was a huge disappointment right financially um it did not do well in terms of sell expectations at all um there's uh go ahead no I I was Greening yeah yeah yeah and and this kind of followed I think the last time we talked about Concord like falling flat on its face and shortly after it totally did I mean I think this is worth mentioning just kind of kind of like an update right I

know you know the listeners out there are holding on to their computers and and tablets like waiting for us to say something right for this past month and a half or whatever yeah but yeah Concord is so bad that they actually are refunding people right uh I haven't seen that happen for years I mean what was the last time that happened to a game where they went on sale for two weeks and then like you know what Mar bad it's happened it's happened before but I don't think it's ever happened that fast I I have to say it's like EA game probably right yeah it was it was there was I've seen it happen before and I think that's the right way to approach things if you're just going to go straight back to the drawing board you know it helps with the branding son yeah yeah well that's what I expect right I expect that to go straight back to the drawing board and because they didn't necessarily say oh we're just going to closeup shop you know it seemed like they were just going to try to take another swing at it right that's that's at least what it s like dur CO's at

least 34 of the shop there's no way there's no way I mean I think they uh the creative director of that game got demoted pretty hard that guy's never going to see a whiteboard ever again oh Lord so you can't fail that hard uh but then uh yeah the the main thing that I was disappointed I mean it's games right super hard to make we all understand but the response from the devs was so disappointing uh what do you mean well you know the devs um from the moment they showed the uh early uh preview right people were saying like the character designs whack all this stuff what's going on right and they're like oh just wait to see man just wait and see you know don't don't don't count us down I was like what what you think are we in a movie like what you what's going on that's not the

that's not disappointing at all right I think like when you're making something you got to have faith and believe in the vision that you're you're trying to make right yes you can listen to the community yes you can work alongside the community and and craft the game to what they want right but also sometimes you also have to be like this is what we want to do you know what I mean um and so like and and and I'm a firm believer as as I think anybody with any sort of Scruples should be is that you shouldn't judge things until they're done um to be judged right so um so like all of those things there I don't find it disappointing right because they had a they had a vision that they wanted to execute on right and then here come a bunch of yahoos and let's be real let's just be real right like yeah working working with the community is great and and you should do that as a game developer half of those no sorry 99% of those opinions are garbage and and invalid and just some nonsense that you

shouldn't listen to right and then there's like 1% of it that you're like oh yeah that's a dope idea or that's something that you could grow right um maybe there's different ways you could communicate that feeling and and just make people feel like you're listening to them right right but time you gotta sometimes you got to just deliver on your vision that you have you know what I mean having a vision and sticking to it there is something respectful about that but the me you know there was like insults being thrown from the dev like you don't know what you're talking about like straight up saying you're an idiot or being blocked right and I get well I'll block if if you that's the other thing about this right yeah you could have a you could disagree you could have you could have um opinions about things but if this was getting blocked on Twitter if this is Twitter we all know Twitter's at the Bastion of intelligence and and uh and niess right it's just pure toxic behavior and nonsense on

there and if you're especially if you're in the middle of shipping and crunching to finish a game the last thing you want is some DMS from yahoos on Twitter yeah talking talking out the side of their neck and talking Reckless yeah you you gonna get blocked 100% you're gonna get blocked we start talking crazy like you know I agree with you the general kind of response and feeling right but maybe I'll say this Concord is maybe not the hill the die yeah I let me get some stats let throw some stats right so they spent $200 million on that game before Sony took over right there 400 million yeah and then Sony saw the state of the game and it's like there's no way we can ship this as of now it's not ready and they spent another $200 million after purchasing the studio that is an insane amount of fail right uh well oh hold on if okay if the game was successful everybody be like oh you only spent 400

million yeah that that is like one in a trillion of an IP yeah game I will never bet on that that is a bad stock to bet on yeah everybody everybody flops it flops everybody's like you spent 400 million man Destiny 500 million like like there's so many games out here especially at this at this level amount of money is eye watering right and so um too shocked that that and especially the length of time that it's been it was in development I'm not shocked at all that they that they were just lown well I I I don't I'm I'm I'm I'm sharing this message mostly because nobody should be shocked that it it faed miserably there were so many corpses in its path of development before shipping it's like Sony saw it and it's like what is this what do we in our mind on and they doubled down and

they doubled down right that that is insane right it's like because by that point it was like not just a year in development it's not something that you went off and you showed me a prototype they were talking about two plus or even three years or four years I looked at uh in development of that game something like that yeah it was pretty long right 4 years and 200 million and you're looking at this and they like you know what I'm not sure how I feel about this and then someone turned to each other and like hey let's buy this studio and spend 200 like what is going on you know at that table to like but you know you it was so many games got passed up because of that right I wouldn't I would I would say that because during that time when everybody was buying up everything it was everything everything was getting bought like everything money was free remember I looked at it all the time I listen man four years ago if I

could have a time machine I was like just make some [ __ ] up because that was a time it was a money grabbing time because that was the type of thinking it's like we have spent 200 million on this have seen nothing let's spend 200 million more right and then you know on the road to delivery it was like just bad reception all the way you know like we talk about you know the game the the the players didn't get a good game everybody hated the game the devs didn't listen and and they had a bad time and now the game's no longer being sold right but like no like I I think few people have mentioned there is somebody at Sony at son's acquisition uh acquisition emerger team that messed up and it's feeling terrible feeling terrible that should be that guy's gone dude he's living in a band down the river dude talking about yeah whoever that is is having a bad time you

know what I mean so yeah that account manager definitely uh completely failed to this job right yeah um but you know just to kind of give that closure since nobody's talking about Concord anymore um the funny thing after that release is I saw a bunch on LinkedIn and uh of artist art directors right I guess there's a lot of out of work art directors on LinkedIn now spending the time just to get those clicks I was like oh this is this is what Concord should if if correcting this you know they were doing paintovers of the character design uh would have been way better uh more successful yeah I I saw that yeah yeah so there was a threat going on and of course people from that team was like hey man I don't think this is really toxic you this is you know these are people's lives that you're kind of just pointing out which is true kind of true but like again an

artist is able to like that's what we do right we can modify mod you know you know give lessons and it is a fail it's like come on guys like we can't the same person no the same person that did that actually amended the post right and was like look yeah I understand blah blah you know and and added more context and more Nuance right um and that's the thing right you just got think thoughtful right you could do all of that it's the difference between like somebody gives you some art to critique or turning in some work to you or whatever and you look at it you're like this is [ __ ] and you just throw back in their face or do you guide them through how to make it better in with more with a more nuanced touch right like I think that's the same difference right um on the internet and you made me pay 400 million no no you also have to take into account too like the the amount of toxicity yeah that like from all

different Corners that got piled on to that game right and so like you're getting piled on from like G from The Gamers saying woke this and Dei that and you're getting jumped on from people that say your [ __ ] is garbage and you get the game's failing you don't know if you're going to have a job tomorrow and then Here Comes somebody else in your profession like [ __ ] on it right so so like you have to take all that into account right and how how do you go about critiquing it given all of that other nonsense around it right um again uh social media is not the place for nuance and and thoughtful discourse is just not yeah right you know well let's kind of take at least the lessons based on facts right yeah from the past year I guess with those two games especially all right which which had kind of like bad reception before the game release right I talk Community sure

but like let's just say critical critically ill received right before the pre-release right and let's predict what the next sassin Creed will be like right uh I'll go first so the next Assassin's Creed is I initially I was super excited about it right it was taking place in feudo Japan I'm a hug I'm a huge fan of tenu right I love why that franchise right so I thought Assassin's Creed ninjas Earth why on Earth did you think an Assassin's Creed gab in Japan would be anything like Chu I don't understand like you're assassinating people and you're a [ __ ] ninja what has Ubisoft done to give you any sort of confidence hey man some of I I I like some of those Assassin's Creed

games I haven't played every single one some of and exactly exactly that that the pirate one I still want to play I haven't gotten it the American Revolution I am tired but I you know they I I do like the fact that they decided not to release it every year and give it some breathing room right but anyways initially right and I think everybody was on the same page it's like oh yeah assassin's K Japan I can't wait and then uh the biggest problem right now is the the Yas player right but then even besides that fiction I think gameplay-wise it's going to start having the same similar issues that we're seeing with Star Wars Outlaws um I think a lot of the problems maybe partly is contributing to why it's got delayed to February of next year right it was supposed to release soon already right this year well it's going to release like closer to the end of this year like Christmas you know

Christmas no February no it got pushed back February I know because and that's what is has that's well that's one other thing that has helped Ubisoft stock go into the gutter but yeah yeah well that's another yeah not doing great a whole other thing yeah so unfortunately I think this game is going to fail right and I I I'm saying unfortunately because there's going to be a lot of developers again beginning of the year I mean if not already from The Outlaws team right this is not tracking well for Assassin's Creed right so I think with a big company like Ubisoft announcing another huge round of layoff is like it's delaying again this recovery status of the industry uh unfortunately okay so hold on hold on

it's gonna fail I don't think that's any doubt that it's going to probably going to fail right and and they're giving it more time to cook because they looking at it and they're like look when we come we can't just be pushing out games that are half half ass they have to be on point in this day and age given all the things that we have to compete with right um but then when it comes to like one of the traits Ubisoft has had for a long time um which makes it a pretty decent place to work for over over time was that you know they never laid anybody off sure never sure even when games flopped you know never and they had they had rosters of people on the bench they had many games development they could rotate people around um and part of that's because you know the government the government money hits nice right like developers are way cheaper when the when the government's paying for some of their salaries and so it's a lot of help yeah yeah it's a lot of help on the bottom line um but they did have a

layoff during this recent bottom out of things it was kind of quiet or it wasn't really very I didn't hear loud noises about it but but but it happened right and for the first time in years like like they don't lay anybody off in an industry that's notorious for people being laid off after projects and things like that right and so now with the with this latest delay right if anybody gets laid off if there's any sort of cut back at you at Ubisoft this go around it's going to have nothing to do oh maybe very maybe some but it but it's not the main factor of why layoffs need to happen right um the stock pric is in the [ __ ] they they did they just had their fiscal year report and and they they cut back on their guidance because they're pushing uh assassin's into next year um there's

investors that invest in the company that want the gimo brothers out they those are the original Founders right yeah yeah um they said that publicly like a couple months ago and that started the slide on the stock price add to that add to that the fact that every game every game to come out with it is a Formula right it's legitimately a formula that they just keep trying to repeat over and over again no no real new ideas nothing really interesting right and you pile you pile all those factors on top of one another the stock price is like $20 and it used to be I think it's down like 600% over the year it's something crazy right so like they're hurting for all sorts of different reasons and so if the game flops which which like it's going to flop like the game's going to flop right but I I don't want people running around saying oh the game flopped and now Ubisoft is no more it's all the game's fault it no this company's been

in trouble for the whole year right and and it has not looked pretty for them oh I take that back it it's at $10 now right um year year to date year to date they're down 55% um you know over the last year 6 66% down five years 83% down like they're having a horrible few years right and and there's investors inside that want that want change in leadership and their games are uninteresting to put it nicely right yeah so like so like they're they're they're hurting they're hurting big time you know and and if they're here if they're if it's still the same company next year I'll be surprised I think people getting laid off as the is the least of ubisoft's worries right now so you so the government a their past profit whatever is enough you think to

take these major flops um they Tak they've Tak many major flops over over the years there games they've made that flops like numerous times right but I think now it's worse because of the the the last Ubisoft game before Star Wars it's been years hasn't it no like well there's always just dance and there's PR some Rayman game I can't I don't even know what the last game they came out with was um probably a division game or something or Tom Clancy game or I don't know let me look that I'm because it's one of those things where it's kind of like um it's kind of like almost Xbox it's like when was the last big Xbox game right what beond good and evil Avatar oh yeah sure Avatar yeah see that was a big game I think was actually a

little more X defant flopped um how did Avatar do actually I think the last oh Prince of Prince of CR was good uher yeah but those are the small games like I'm talking about the big like crazy games Assassin's Creed Mirage you know yeah they're having a tough time the crew the crew settlers like I would love to kind of say yes it's the brothers or whatever right it's the old guards that is failing to adapt to today's standards yeah yeah but like I'm I'm not always it's funny how I shifted over the years I think everyone's at fault right I don't think the devs are always clear of conscious right I mean it used to be like oh it's just the leads right right but like works do you know how they make games M St I no I don't but I have to

assume there are designers outside of the studio heads right no so how does it go explain to me break it down breing it down yeah yeah you design your game you have your hot shot you come up with your little game ideas um it goes to a and this is why all the games are the same it goes to a game design committee and they give you feedback they give you feedback on your game and the things that you should add to your game and things like that right and they all suggest the same [ __ ] right and then you go come back and you could take you could take um the advice or not but of course these are the same dudes that are signing the green light checks and and making sure that the team gets funded so you going to do what they say right and then the same patterns emerge in all the games and that's why all the games are the same right because it's a very it's a very focused lens that everything gets passed through right um and like and that's

just how it works there you know I see and um so it is how it works yeah which is like one of the one of the cool things about that is there's a lot of companies you work for where the the executives or the SE Suite or the guys at the very top have not not L they have no idea what you're doing or they have no idea what a game is or no idea what makes a game fun or no game ideas at all right where like like those those dudes play and are passionate about games right do they just play their own games is what they don't anybody but but you you see you see the same the same patterns emerging you know and then there was a time you know there was a time where the band dat was every game has to be you know games as a service on online and all that stuff and and and so there was that that phase where everything was the same that way too um does these things are mandated if you want to get your game greenlighted you know and the fact

that these smaller games like Prince of Prince of Persia the Lost crown or like even like ex defiant and skull and bones like I'm surprised those are those are like those are like high exceptions yeah I will get credit ex defant had a very surprising uh reception like a lot of people I I remember kind of skimming through that uh the numbers were coming back really great like that team I know it's been long in development but to get into that space like Call of Duty space with anything it's super tough but they kind of were able to uh make a name for themsel a bit um there were things about it that people were really uh receiving very well um you don't know well I will say exify out of all the thing that we talked about the Star Wars this Yas thing any of Assassin's Creed um Avatar right exify out of that

crowd had very has more positive I think Avatar had more positive reception than like exify everybody was like what is this like yeah I don't know anybody that was like oh man that X to F I'm hyp I I was seeing like streamers and people like actually kind of like what maybe I'm I'm fogging it up because it's been a while yeah let me look I'm surprised it's still running you know it's a mixbag and I think the other part of okay so let me read this real quick it had uh initial success had a remarkable start uh breaking Ubisoft records by reaching 1 million unique users incredibly quickly after its launch this suggests strong initial entrance to positive reception from The Gaming Community positioning as a potential Contender see that's what I heard I critical reception according to reviews like a IGN gains fundamentals for G but struggles with blah play

sentiment you know uh social media celebrating genuine skill progression all this so there was yeah so I am remembering right there was like a genuine like celebration one like fastest 1 million from for a new franchise basically right I mean that I don't I don't remember anything about Avatar saying anything about anything dude people say look like it looked gorgeous right it looks really it did look gorgeous of course and I I have to say Ubisoft makes open world games that look good right but like the game systems have been failing like you said designed by committee uh literally uh is not working out and I think there's I think there's also been kind of like a a leeching of talent you know people have moved on to other things people moved on to different teams and and it's just hard to keep that core team together yeah I see so like all the

great talents are being spread too thin yeah well I mean it's sad to hear that it's uh surely going to be a bad game but I think that's going to be a final nail something man I don't think it's gonna be business usual yeah I'm pretty certain that it's not going to be I think some hits will fall after that game release and suck like there's no way that Ubisoft is like oh all right let's try again there's going to be some layoffs there has to be two big games like that failing uh right after another is I mean and we're talking about the delay dude I I'm looking up the date original release date was in November a month from now November to February which is the new release date that's not much man we're talking about like three weeks with all the Christmases and holidays and new year you're not talking you're not making anything think you think there's a Christmas for that I'm just saying you've done this enough I'm I'm saying even with crunch uh reluctantly you're not going to get a

nod of like creativity you know that's going to turn the you're talking about bug fixing at that point you're not designing anything the game's not ho ho horrible Christmas yeah it's just about fixing bugs at that point and trying to make it so that you're not falling through the world right you're not doing anything uh really you think so there's no design or anything they're going to be doing that's going to change the game around yeah there's no way you think somebody somebody's somebody's going to be like yo I got an idea I I hope so you know cool if we just make [ __ ] T you dude what else you want it's so hard dude no man it's Assassin game you can sneak up on people people want tens you dude let's make T I think that that IP like I've played a lot of those games and like and I've enjoyed them Valla was the last one I played on V's good man Vahala that's why I mean Bal is one that I wanted I think I actually bought it that's the

one I bought and Black Flag Black Flag is good right those to I heard a lot of good things how about the American Revolution one was that okay that's what I didn't play like like after bajala I was like I'm good guys thank you well it is f impressive that they kept that Assassin's Creed franchise and pumped so many games out in terms of quantity like I don't think anybody else was able to do that with open world games like that right um but like you said there is a tiredness there is a yeah man a slowness with the game design no especially now no right now there's so much games there's so much people competing for gamers attention right yeah and like and you just have to come with something different and fresh right and a lot of

these a lot of these annual franchises that are going to make a ton of money just because of the marketing and and their name behind them um but the stakes are so high you know and and and every year it's expected to do way better numbers than the year before it um and then you just look at you're like oh man this is the same thing man this is the same thing um and like with with the next Assassin's Creed they're like oh how can we switch it up oh you're two different play Styles and two different characters and and I'm just like you know I really don't care you know so I'm just tired I need something different like you know Activision black Black Ops 6 is about to come out and I'm like like why should I care you know yeah yeah what games just to kind of provide some context have you been finding yourself either genre or franchise what what is those games that

you're into now that you're still revisiting or you discovered recently this I'm a nerd man I'm playing all the forx turnbas strategy games like Millennia ARA history on told just came out yeah playing all those games you know because it's just a big it's a big time sync but it's that's what I find interesting yeah I'm dying anyway yeah but yeah okay well that's a good context playing I want to try out Space Marines all right uh I keep hearing like it's a scii epic I've been I've been hearing good things about it but even then I'm like ah I don't know man I don't know I've also been playing a satisfactory again another another like strategy game or like a resource management game and you're like you're you're like it's kind of like all those Survival Games you

start with nothing and then next thing you know you're building cars and like rocket ships and stuff um and then like factories with the with a conveyor belt producing different items and Mining materials and all that kind of stuff that's cool is it multiplayer yeah you can totally play that multiplayer yeah right so like it's those kind of games that I'm like okay using my brain some strategy right if you're going to come with just the some whack stuff I've already seen before I I a really with it you know yeah there's just so many I think that's why also I think that's why everybody's holding up Wukong is like some shining example right but I think that's why a lot of people resonated with it because it was just like it something it was something different you know well the mythology is definitely something different um I I look at it I'm just so amazed at the Polish to be honest like

uh I didn't have to download some crazy day one patch or anything but it I I haven't ran into any bugs to have that many boss fights epic boss fights and not have any crazy lag or falling through the world or something that just completely stopped me from playing uh that is quite an achievement for a team that is a quarter right even probably less that uh like a god of war team right um also about it like that game like looks presents itself as being very epic yeah but it's it's very focused super focused for sure yeah and and and that's how like they're able to fool you into thinking it's like some big Grand thing um and it's just really well executed right um and really focused on what the game's about you know yeah it it kind of made me um kind of go back like I have a call

back to the Batman games right because the Batman games before the Batman games it was a weird period of a lot of unpolished buggy games right but when you play the Batman game I remember that moment oh this like back into PS2 era or PS3 era game where it's super polished everyone's thought out and it's like the first time too where Batman 2 and de Patman 3 of that series was like [ __ ] you we're not starting over you don't have them need as a character you have everything that you had in the last game we're going to do more like what what are we going to do that's crazy like like Sil Reaver I played that right and Sil Reaver had that every game you're like suddenly like I lost all my Powers I must regain I was like why I spent so much time getting this but Batman was still I think is the only game that builds off of its previous games and you don't have to start over that's pretty that just takes a whole level of game design it really forces the game designers to like push

themselves to make it more right and that's why I feel with Wukong it's like it's not trying to cheat that formula right it's just like just building up your character you're looking forward to the boss fights it frustrates you but there's a formula to the boss fight it isn't random like difficulty right there's a strategy to beating him each and everyone and it's just like man and it's the grinding actually is fun and I haven't been as I found I found Wukong like way easier than any demon souls or yeah it's approachable yeah I I haven't been too much in the Demon Souls games I haven't played it as much right so to me this is like a good introduction to those type of games because I I I have Elden ring and I heard it's like the hardest game ever made right I was like yeah I would have go I would have go that far cuz I think Elder ring is even easier than some of the early demon souls and Dark Souls games but but Wukong is like way

easier than all those games right right I say that and some people are like what you mean right but like it's it's true like it's it's way way easier well I look forward now I'm introduced to that genra stuff where like all right now I gotta really check this out if this is how it's like but yeah I'm with you man like in terms of games there's just so much to pick from and uh you know Wukong it's it's it is a great game but like what it means to to the Game Dev Community is a in Gaming Community is a little bit it's pretty impactful because we're going in this direction right like Ubisoft is going like bigger crazier right more expensive and tremendous flop right speaking to basically the last two years of the game industry is like these games everyone's being laid off right I it's like this is the direction that we keep on going that's the problem and

then something like wukan comes out that is more Focus still a big budget but way lesser than 400 million right it's not 400 million uh I think they made 400 million day one right that's what I'm talking about uh but uh and and and it's coming from a Chinese company where the Chinese industry is known for just making mobile games because that's that's where the money is and Triple A is a waste of time they but like now it's re making them rethink things it's like oh well I I don't know if I don't know if Wukong by itself made because they because when they made when they were went set up to make Wukong they were told that they were told why are you making why you doing this make a mobile game and which they were yeah no and they did make mobile games in order to get money to make this right um so but but um but yeah and I I think people we we ignore um like we talk about AAA and flops and spending all this money but there are small games that start

small build community work alongside the community work in Early Access for years satisfactory being one of those games that was in Early Access for for a long time yeah um and and building up Bas on community feedback and things like that right and and and these are way more sustainable ways of making games right but it's because these things are not games that suck air out of the room but they're games that are profitable or or or allow their developers to continue making video games right like um Hades too and like there's so many examples of like just really sticking to your community and building and and not going crazy and and then we but then when all these big budget triaa games and the bottom falls out and and they're not doing anything interesting but we've said that triaa games haven't really been doing anything interesting for a long time we've been saying this for a while we've been saying for a while that the teams were getting too big we're saying for a while that they're spending too much money right um but then it was

like but look it's working so like what you what the hell you talking about you know and now and it's just now that chickens are coming home to roost you know and they're like oh like is this really the right way and I think what's I think what's going to happen is I think a lot of the Triple A tripa games what's going to end up happen you're going to get less of them and they're really going to honk Honker down and the budgets will even blow up more right because they're like oh no we got to make sure that this is the one right we're going to focus we're not going to make five different games at the same time we're going to make sure this is the one that knock your socks off and make all the money right um I I I feel like I feel like people can react that way to it which will be like a really bad um outcome in my opinion right yeah I will say this and to kind of put an aster to what you just said right I I I think it's just the Western triaa games that have been failing

miserably right we always kind of champion Nintendo but like you're seeing a lot of success with cap not SRE enx s enx you know they never are satisfied with any money that they ever made like we made we sold 13 million copies and I'm like Capcom like Capcom had Street Fighter no not to street fight all the remakes for uh Resident Evil uh any games that they made so this is how the remak I will say this right so I'm I'll look this up I'll quote it correctly right but um but they are during this two years of like Panic layoffs massive layoff mostly with Western Studios I would say almost all of them right Capcom not only did not they didn't lay anyone off they have raised the base salary of everybody in their company because of such a great year and this the the the the the CEO even commented saying like we want to keep our team together this is how we

build great games by keeping the core team together recognizing that and uh we want to reward them you know because we did have a great year and uh we want to raise the standards right and this is what a fantastic and then that's why this past couple years in contrast has been such a great success for Easter game development uh industry right because uh on the backs of the Capcom and all you know Nintendo's always doing their thing they they're they're fine right but then you have this like blossoming um company out of woom at for the Triple A Space at least right um that that that just happened at you know in the summer right we we're seeing like this total opposite this polar opposite effect that's happening where uh the triple AC and the other side of the world is doing amazing things right um and a

lot of it's probably what you're saying right they they are their their team size is usually quite smaller right uh game design if anything right they they just recently obviously uh caught up with Graphics I feel like there was like kind of like a dead period with Japanese companies where they couldn't figure out how to make their game look as good as the Western campones right lately they've they've definitely gotten there with all these dark souls and Wukong it's like all right now they're like at a point where we don't care as much right in terms of graphical Fidelity of ruining the game but their game designers are freaking have always been awesome and it's really shining through uh even with all these remakes yes it's like Resident Evil remakes right but it's selling a lot because I think a lot of gamers are wanting that high production value right uh but without

the shitty game design which is what we've been getting with the Western stuff it's just falling flat man like I was making fun of at the beginning of this how you know your character hiding the sh shrubs come on man at a certain point what are we doing like this is like you don't need pretty Graphics to test that [ __ ] out you know it's like this is not working like stop updating the characters let's figure this out right but that that's the stuff that I think why gamers are really leaning to the communities uh building with the Indie developers the Eastern games right the W call and all these uh Japanese games because they are a real focus on game systems Nintendo you know imagine Nintendo releasing anything like Star Wars Outlaw right where like someone would get killed you know during pre-production yeah I don't I don't even think they're even capable I know but like there's a smell test that or

standard in pre-production where they don't go too far off the ranch when the game design isn't there right and they've always done that right on that other side of the ocean but Western games are like really deprioritize game design uh and and really highlight all this graphical bells and whistle because most of that money let's be honest $400 million is never towards the game design Department right it's always everything else is the B the [ __ ] no no no you say everything else just say what it is it's it's to you guys to me it's to you guys the environment team is 100 people man we got got else to somebody somebody yeah somebody was saw a presentation or something about Tekken the the latest Tekken 8 and like and the cost of a of a Tekken character and like those numbers

are bananas and it's because of you you want good-looking guys or what what do you want yeah because artist right taking like two months want to see the veins and the muscles popping when you get punched yeah like come on man um so yeah that's what it is right because when you're when you're in the arms race yeah you know making that content is just is getting crazy and crazier and that's why every body so hyped on the AI right yeah because they're like oh man can I reduce this content creation cost you know can I can I get rid of some of y'all you know people are Juiced about that because it's the hugest cost is it is the hugest cost but I'm I'm I'm I think it is the wrong Focus because no matter it's not people are looking obiously yeah it's like it's like yeah you can make this Ai and shorter but you know how it is with if it takes a short amount to make something I'm going to make a thousand of it and it's going to end up being longer in the end right

which is the problem with artists and I I'm speaking from an artist perspective is like we need a muzzle on these guys it's like it's getting ridiculous uh because it it's taking uh it's a distraction at this point and I hope a lot of these reset this reset that we're going through right now uh Studio Founders or investors are finally looking at this like hey maybe we don't need that many pixel dude uh maybe not not not as much polygons let's what is the game again like let's ask the right questions I hope this is part of that because I we've seen that though we've seen that we've seen that in the Indie space why because well the Indies have less money right and so they got to be smarter with how they use their money like we've seen it already we know what it is but then when you're like hey I want to make a big Blockbuster thing and I like there's no middle ground anymore right there's no like hey give me $5 million to make a

cool game right it's like five million that seems kind of low um and or if you're like hey give me 100,000 they're like 100,000 that's cheap here you go go go make your dreams right but five million oh what are you really making though yeah but then it's so then it's like oh I have to jump from 100K to now I have to like oh I'm going to make the next $400 million epic right and then it has and then there's a certain expectation for how it looks there's a certain expectation for how much you spend on Art and how how how those pretty pixels look you know what I mean um it's it's it's an arms race you know and especially at that level you can't say hey I want to I want to charge $60 or $70 for this game I'm going to take three years and it's not going to be uh photo realistic you know and and super crazy looking right you you just you just can't right or you just takeing or you taking a huge gamble if you do yeah well I I hope

um I hope we don't go that direction any further man if if this is not the time if people are looking at AI like oh now I can make more art it's like no dude but that's why they're so hyped that's why they're so hyped it's like make because I think we're hitting that that maximum limit for like how crazy we could get like with the time that we have and it's like okay now it's time to like how do we optimize the hell out of that yeah well making things look good I hate to say this man it's way easier now than ever right but making a good game is it though I think it's a lot easier than making a good game that actually uh yeah well nobody really knows really nobody really knows what yeah that's more of an enigma that's more uh you know creativity in my opinion right yeah um and that is what the Western games have been struggling with in my op you know and uh thankfully the Indie guys are

finding a pathway to keep the game industry sustainable in my opinion but uh everyone else oh my God it's gotten worse it has gotten worse $400 million for Concord dude I look at that game it's like why like why where how you know what I mean it looks good but $400 million good dude I like n man you know people have to eat right get people gotta get paid even though even though you're even though straight up criminals D you still getting paid that game I think was seven years in development right yeah it was like eight years yeah something like that oh my god dude what the [ __ ] I hope some some guys are are driving in with their Lamborghinis man being sad about their one day notice or something I was like well at least I have still my Lambo because if you're just eight years just

you know driving in with a Honda Odyssey right I was like where did that money go like come on there's you know there's a lot of reasons I'm sure there's a lot of reasons where you know if you know knew what was going on behind the scenes you'd be like ah I see you know yeah well it would be interesting to I know that story haven't ended I mean we haven't officially seen any crazy in layoffs from that studio in result of that game which is which is kind of bizarre man for to for to to to to announc the refund that quickly and you know you would expect like oh we got to size down quickly after it was no it was I think it was they cut it off really quickly so that they didn't spend any more money on it you know what I mean people are still there service are not cheap right and and and and it's clear I think that they're going to reboot it I think it's obvious that they're like we we have to have another shot at it and reboot it and now

they're just being quiet about it I'm just surprised no one got laid off so I'm doing some quick Math Man hey I'm no mathematician but I am Asian but like eight years 400 million dude that's that's a that's a cost of 4.2 million a month right if that team is still intact it's possible 4 million a month still like that's why I'm surprised that I haven't heard like oh at least on link I mean they're own by it's owned by Sony man Sony ain't happy about that 4.2 million well I'm sure no I'm sure they're not happy about it but but I'm sure they're like okay they that there shuffling things around tax right off there's an hourglass ticking away and they're like all right like what's up right I'm sure that's what's happening right now I'm sure yeah but I'm I'm looking with the magnifying glass I'm looking at that team like we keep all of them everyone it's like I'm looking at Concord I'm looking at the team I was like everybody it's like even that guy what did he do

let like get rid of that guy uh well Sony funny enough I um just to end it real quick just this one last comment I do feel like Sony have been bulletproof but have been kind of hitting a few misses and it's it's creating a trend uh you know the last of us two never happening yeah for many reasons that was a big thing right uh the Bungie guys um being supposed to be like this MP God that they were counseling all these projects all right I'm gonna say something that that no one's saying right so Bungie we know by now right was overspending had this like crazy news buy out you know overly priced themselves and Sony got a bad deal out of it sort of right because it they

haven't been able to produce anything but like a destiny expansion however they had this expertise in M multiplayer right for whatever reason they think they do right and then Sony's using them to kind of games be this committee right to to to kind of like uh pivot Sony into a multiplayer space that they never before right and since then publicly at least right Last of Us two or Last of Us multiplayer didn't amount to anything right and then we have this concour so you have to think right the bunge deal happened for like five years so far they are hell divers 2 by the way hell divers 2 I see hell ders 2 you know why I felt like Sony and Bungie had nothing to do with it they were all like oh wow this is surprising and it was good right so they can't give that credit to them right but I will say right the eyes ofar was definitely

on Concord you know the [ __ ] of the you know bungi was playing testing out that and saying yeah this good it was awesome all right Feb Fe back right so they were handholding that project to failure right let's be real that's all it happened right they were focusing on that project and they said that was thumbs up ready to go so what does that no no what is that no I think Sony Tred reach out into games as of service in general yeah was a mistake yeah period that's it that that's the answer well it's definitely a mistake now yeah no no but that's the answer right like it's it was just like they're following a trend yeah which is almost always bad idea um because you're following a trend you should be instead telling people where the new trend is at right um and so they're following a trend and they got to build up Studios they got to acquire people and it's just not their wheelhouse like their

wheelhouses those single player experien narrative yeah and and I think what it really shows more than anything is that they're like we we have to show growth here we have to grow here because they're hitting up that's why you all these Sony games are now coming to PC right because they're like yeah like we're the Kings over here run this but we need there's other platforms where we can grow onto and so they want to grow onto PC acquired nixes that does all the PC ports for all the all the PlayStation titles right and then and then this whole games is a service thing um you know some bean counter did the math and the projections and they're like to the Moon baby grow you know we're going to the Moon if all this works out and it just didn't work out you know and and and it's why because one of the things is it's not their strong suit it's not their it's not their bag you know and there's probably some friction with

bringing on Bungie and other people like you know it's just it's just it's I think everybody was just overextended you know and that's and you end up that's where you end up yeah well let's let's let's quickly explain right the the the the value of this overextension right just just a quick math right walk with me no the potential value is enormous and so then you're you're in a you're in a time when money is free everybody's investing investing for the future taking huge risks everybody's doing this right you're you're one of your competitors is is going to the supermarket and buying everything up out of there and you looking around going oh no what am I what am I gonna do right what else a bunch of what else you been doing clear clearly a vision of like this is a SE segment of game that we we don't dabble in very much and like let's let's

go into that realm because the potential upside is huge right it's a it's a risk right yeah but it's a it's a calculated one but it's a risk but again like I said it's also following they're kind of following a trend which kind of tells you you're like ah I don't know if this going to work out for you you know what I mean um where their where their strengths are is in that single those single player experiences right yeah so I'm I'm interested to see how are they going to correct this misstep right quickly go over the numbers real quick right so they bought bung for 3.6 billion you're not going to make the money back dude they're not going to make the money back they haven't shown anything Microsoft not going to make the money back for how much they pay for activition exactly right but let's just stick with Sony right now uh we know Concord we know Concord cost him $400 million in development but they had to buy outright firewalk Studios from probably mon ERS all right so and if they were $200 million for that game you know the the

value of that company was probably more than that so they paid more than 200 million at this point maybe close to even twice 800 million to a bill maybe for the studio and Conquer so far right and you add on to uh uh well yeah just those two deals right um that is a lot of money that uh uh haven't amounted to anything in the last five years right and uh it's just insane to me that more heads haven't fallen from the multiplayer life service department at Sony that's that's a lot of money man um because even even Microsoft buying Activision Blizzard right which is still trying to close Clos right but immediately after is a close by

now is it officially I think it's officially but even at like they bought you know a ridic for a ridiculous amount right um but like you know they saw Call of Duty doing Call of Duty numbers right afterwards right so Sony doesn't haven't seen any of that right there's no like redeeming path that they've been able to capitalize on for spending basically almost $5 billion trying going down this Venture right so I I feel that alone they're already looking down this dark tunnel and like continuously digging this deeper hole right I I feel like their trajectory is actually kind of worse in in terms of at least this multiplayer space than Microsoft with their acquisition you know Microsoft is having a hard time too but but they have [ __ ] Call of Duty

you know what I mean it's like you know the number one right multiplayer game ever right and they have [ __ ] blizzard right it's like they're so they have these opportunities obviously right they think so yeah but there's nothing Sony Online is there anything Sony Online that you're excited about like Marathon like what else do they have hell divers three maybe like what is it I mean hell dver is cool I mean is great I mean yeah you know I still don't understand why they don't make a so Socom or or a siphon filter siphon filter yeah uh what else um uh kill zone right well I know why they're not making Killzone I still think Killzone will be dope with today's no but but but I know why they're not making killone okay because they're working Horizon Yeah well

yeah like someone actually commented on that in our last thing saying that you know as gain devs right we should be more in support of original IPS and teams coming in with new ideas and uh instead of like trying to like oh well they should make SoCal or things that have been proven right I was like ah you know at a certain point right uh if you're failing so hard you're just trying to find LEL ground again I think the reason why we mentioned those is because the time between them is is sufficient enough where you're like oh yeah like another one of those is no problem but like to next right now Black Ops 6 is about to come out and next year will'll be some other Call of Duty nonsense next year it's a little different I don't need another Call of Duty like I just don't don't period right so so it's just different right um yeah do I want them to make a completely new IP yeah sure I want that

too um yeah it's not going to happen all right well that concludes uh to this week's uh round table hopefully next time when we talk we can celebrate success right people think I you know like ranting all the time I don't man I like talking about how Studios do well too right it's just that there there are successes and I I talked Wukong I love games like that you know you talk about all these like strategy games that there is like a Resurgence uh in a lot of these strategy games uh even MMO and stuff like people are liking to spend quality time uh more than just a quantity of like different games coming out every week so um you know just stop failing so hard right and then we can talk about that it's not it's not my fault uh so the next time we talk uh hopefully we have better news um there's

so much we didn't even talk about like I still didn't dig into the meta stuff I know they had their announcement they have like their glasses and stuff maybe we'll save it next time um but have a good night as always you can find rayon X even though he hates it uh myself as as well if you want to add to the conversation leave the comments below see you guys later [Music] [Music]