Put a Face on It: The Aesthetics of Cute

[Music] hi everyone uh today I'll be talking to you about cuteness and why it's important so let's start off with myself uh my name is Jenny and I also go by qor on Twitter uh I recently graduated from the NYU game center with a BFA and game design and I've been making games for around 3 years at this point uh so here are some of the cute games I've made Slam City oracles is a commission game that I worked with uh I worked on with Jane Fred off for No Quarter in 2014 it's a game where you and a friend slam around and tear down this Colorful World filled with all these weird and silly objects it's inspired by a mix of punk rock Riot girl and bouncy physics so try to create as much chaos as possible and have fun with that uh I also helped make this game called Stellar smooch with ap Thompson who also helped me a lot with this talk so make sure go follow them on

Twitter at Bed tedris uh Stellar smooch is a game about kissing and loneliness and it got into the igf in 2014 we also made a cool alt control version which we showed at the wild rumpus that year as well you and a friend have to simultaneously squeeze this big red yoga ball at the correct time to get the space propes to collide with each other the year after AP and I teamed up again and we went on to create beg glitched beg glitched is a game about insecurity in our computers and ourselves and though it may look cute and silly it's actually much more difficult than it seems It's currently out on Steam and about to get an iOS release so if you're interested in checking it out definitely go buy it and give us our money uh so while I was working on beitch I also took this prototyping class taught by Bennett FY where I made a game a week based on a specific prompt so here are some of the prototypes that came out of that class the theme for

this one was 10 seconds so morning makeup Madness is a game where you have 10 seconds to do your makeup uh it's a personal game and it's drawn from my own experience of waking up super late and not having enough time to get ready uh wobble yoga is another prototype I made in that class uh the theme for this one was shapeshift it was actually a ludum dare theme and I decided to make this quop likee game where you have to contort this noodly limbed Avatar through this series of like really challenging yoga post and this game is also based off of my own personal experience so anyway I'm currently working on a personal game about dieting called consume me and it's focused on this specific time period in my life where I just wasn't super happy with the way I looked and with my body uh even though the subject matter is quite dark I intentionally decided to use this cute and silly aesthetic for the game which I'll go into more detail later uh so I just told you about the games I worked

on here are some cute games that I like to play so Animal Crossing is a game where you go fishing catch bugs and pay off your loans in order to acquire more debt from Tom Nook the cute and adorable raccoon in the game uh Neco atum is another cute game on my list uh leave out food for these cats and they'll give you sardines which you can use to buy additional food and toys for them later on it's a game with pretty limited interaction but I kept playing this one because I just wanted to collect all the cute cats uh three this is another one that I really like it's this tiny puzzle game about matching numbers and the design is really minimal but brilliant and I think the cute faces on the tiles are just really charming and kind of add a lot to the look and feel of like the entire game uh Poore is a game where you want to Stack as many baby chicks onto this plate of food and make sure they don't topple over uh you just want to try to make the biggest structure possible and finally uh survive mola Moola is this game uh that you can get off your on your phone uh you're raising

this Sunfish and it's your job to make this mola mola grow as big as possible but it's actually a game that's kind of dark because you have to kill your mola mola in order to make progress in the game so you have to like unlock every single death method ranging from like choking on every single type of food to dying on every Adventure that your mola goes on anyway so those are just some of the C games I love to play but the thing is in general we have a tendency to dismiss cuteness uh we associate cuteness with being childish and immature but today uh I want to present a case for cuteness so using my work as primary examples I will show you how cuteness can attract disarm and engage and you're basically making a mistake when you underestimate it so my first point is cuteness grabs our attention many of the cute games I showed to you earlier are you know all really quite Charming there's something about them

that makes them feel really friendly and approachable so I want to use Stellar smooch as my main example to show you how cuteness is attention grabbing so the way you play this game is uh you uh so you tap the screen to release and make the space probes smooch each other and the game is short it's roughly 24 levels and there's this lovely poem which AP wrote that acts as part of the level select so before the game looked like this it looked like this actually it really looked like this uh this is the Prototype that AP made in a week with their pixel art uh but uh so anyway this is the version uh the first iteration of art after I joined the project and we kept this visual style in for like a really long time and even though there is like nothing inherently wrong with the art uh I felt like there was something missing about it you know the art didn't look terrible but it also didn't feel really you know special

maybe boring is the right word to describe it um and even though I swapped out the pixel art with this new you know this new visual style uh it fundamentally didn't change the tone of the game so the game still retained this very serious tone and I mean just look at the title this is the original title of selller smooch DSE and metal are just memories of an Embrace which is like a line from the poem and the game just lacked uh any sort of humor so when I was staring so like I was staring at this particular screen for a really long time and just trying to figure out how to make the art better than it currently was which is challenging because you know how do you take something that isn't really all that bad in the first place and make it better and so I just drew faces over the planets and I know that sounds kind of like a silly answer but once I added faces to them there was something that felt right about the decision

by the way uh I think it kind of relates to these images on the screen so I don't know if anyone has heard of the term parolia but examples of this phenomenon include perceiving a face within an in inanimate objects so you know we see ourselves and everything and this is just one of the ways that cuteness can grab our attention so with that in mind I basically started from scratch all over again I began developing a new color palette for the game and then I went on to add these little little faces to the Blobs of color which would later become uh the faces of the planets and I just kept iterating on it and trying out different Expressions I wanted to give the planets their own personalities and finally I ended up with these five planets I experimented with adding detail to them but decided against that decision in the end because I felt like embracing a more minimal look made the game more elegant so I took away the excess detail limited the color palette to only six colors and ended up with these five

planets that are the current ones in the game and something I realized in hindsight is that by adding faces to the planets I took these elements that were originally part of the environment of the game and made them into characters by incorporating emotional states to the planets the impact of winning or losing a level felt much more significant and the game actually responded to your actions it allowed for more expressive and interesting solutions to other design problems we had for example this is just one of the problems that we were challenged with uh adding faces to the planets helped resolve this one issue where basically uh in the old version this piece of like ugly UI text would drop down from the top of the screen whenever you lost and it would give you the option of trying the level again or going back to the main menu and I really disliked this because I felt like it looked incredibly jarring and was like very clunky uh as a solution to this

problem so now when you lose the planets will start crying and then like a restart button will fade into the corner of the screen oops however when you win the planets whoops okay yeah so when you win the planets will smooch along and it's just like very clear uh to indicate whether or not you won or lost and I just felt like this ultimately was just like a much more intuitive and elegant solution because it just reduced all these elements that previously had been on the screen and really focused on the parts of the game that mattered uh yeah so you know the game shifted from being something completely serious and kind of boring and lacking any sort of humor uh to something cuter and more simple and with like a lot more character and I just want to quickly uh talk about this process um from understanding Comics which is this book by Scott McLoud it's

uh basically I'd like to say the process that took place here is a form of amplification through simplification and um basically what it is is uh like here's an illustration so you know to your left you see uh like a very realistic photograph of a man but then like with each uh depiction as you're moving towards the right it gets more simple and the image becomes more abstract and it's like interesting a question uh you know this image of like two dots aligned in a circle uh still resembles a face and it's just like as acceptable to us uh as the image uh of like the very realistically drawn man so when we abstract an image through this process of cartooning you know we're Illuminating a lot of details and we're just focusing on the ones that really do matter uh it's like basically taking uh the meaning that we want to get across and amplify in

it so in Cellar smooch by adding these faces to the planets and making them cuter it just allowed me to focus my attention to the most important parts of the game and as a result it gave me the opportunity to just remove a lot of like this unnecessary detail left over from the previous art style so don't underestimate the importance of adding a face to something and making it cuter so however the thing is cuteness isn't always about being friendly and approachable it can also act as a mask to hide darker motives so in Animal Crossing one of the first things you do is take a loan out from Tom Nook because you need to have a house in the game and you need the loan to pay for it so the game starts off by putting you into debt to this cute little guy but the thing is even after you pay off this loan Tom Nook will always continue to take your money away from you and he will always continue to put you into debt and acquire more and more property he's kind of a little sinister that sort of way

like underneath this cute cuddly face lurks this more you know darker intent and another example maybe like a more clear example is uh of cuteness acting as a mask for something far more Sinister is flowey from undertale you know he's one of the first major characters that you meet in the game and he appears to be super friendly and cute and Charming however it's quickly revealed that flowey is actually incredibly evil uh he provides an introduction to the mechanics of encounters by sharing these friendliness pellets which are actually harmful bullets so you know flow is just another character that under that operates under this facade of friendliness whenever he drops theg of cuteness he often calls the protagonist an idiot which brings me to the main example of this point uh in beglitched Cut cuteness acts as a mask and disarms people's initial expectations of the game specifically in terms of the game's mechanics many people take one look at

the game and underestimate the difficulty of it they think it might be easy PC to play it little do they know it's actually a lot more harder than its pastel exterior might suggest the cute aesthetic also masks the insecurity that the enemy hackers each possess so each of the each of these enemies have their own insecurities which caus them to lash out at the glitch witch so examples of this include the squid being worried about his skills becoming irrelevant and becoming washed up the ape uh feeling frustrated at his inability to copy or ape the techniques of the glitch witch and the bear trying to compensate for his lack of hacking skills by purchasing the most powerful technology however cuteness does not necessarily have to hide dark and evil motives it isn't always just about masking insecurity cuteness can be a form of rise in Rebellion by subverting people's expectations so the rise of cuteness in Japan emerged

in the 1970s as part of this new writing style many teenage girls began to write latly with mechanical pencils and these girls would write in big rounded characters and add these little pictures to their writings such as heart Stars emoticon faces these pictures would be randomly inserted and make it really difficult to read so in many of these cases uh their teachers could no longer uh read their students handwriting and the handwriting style was banned in many schools however during the 1980s this new cute writing style was adopted by magazines and comics and even put onto packaging and advertising this form of cute handwriting which once was banned in schools has kind of led to this rise of cuteness in Japanese culture and speaking of cuteness in Japanese culture is anyone familiar with the latest Sano character uh so her name is ago and she's a 25-year-old red panda working working as an office associate in the

accounting department of a highly respected trading company however she's constantly taken advantage of and bothered by her boss and co-workers she has to deal with getting much of the grunt work shoveled onto her and there's this darker side to this seemingly cute character so when a greto gets fed up of everything she goes and screams death metal karaoke after work so that was kind of my final example for cuteness acting as a mask for something much more darker and more Sinister ageta lets us or has added Dimension to her personality you know she's not only cute but she's also tough and it doesn't let it definitely lets us see how cuteness is flexible because it lets us look at how we can use this initial appearance of friendliness and charm to take people's expectations uh and subvert them in regards to what's lying beneath the surface even with be glitched it's a game that's telling you not to underestimate it based off it looks and I think that's pretty

cool so my third point is cuteness gives us room to experiment so didn't always look this way even though it's a game about hacking it doesn't really share the same aesthetic as most games that are traditionally cyberpunk when you think of cyberpunk maybe the first thing that pops into your mind are green dark dystopias and uh Ultra evil villains which is what the original art of the game looked like yeah so here's the original prototype that AP made it was dark green and kind of serious and that tone also reflected in the gameplay as well when I joined the project I kept this secret Tumblr which I would use to later help develop my aesthetic for be glitched I'd reblog images that I found you know attractive and cute and it kind of embodied a certain sort of mood that I was going for and at the same time I was also really drawn to these pastel color palettes and like this girly pink

look I also found these super cute versions of old computer UI I loved how people created these really girly and cute interfaces something about the playfulness of the sort of imagery spoke to my inner 10-year-old who loves Holo Kitty and tamagachi it wasn't just cute it felt nostalgic in a way to me that green cyberpunk dystopias did not however this cute doesn't really work for actual computer interfaces like think about click clippy uh it's kind of annoying and intrusive and gets in what in the way of you know what you're actually trying to do so I think this cute aesthetic really only works for games because games are their own aesthetic universes having to compete with a space in a space where everything else is at once is uh where you really want to assert this actual visual difference so that's how I started iterating on the game game one of the first things I did was swap out all the

colors and develop a new color palette by the way I didn't really know how to do pixel art before joining the project so it didn't look very good at first uh but I continued to iterate more and more and I just you know redid the thing over and over again and eventually the assets began to look better and the visual style began to uh be more cohesive and clear to me um and and yeah it just like took a lot of trial and effort I remember staring at the same colors and feeling like I was going crazy looking at this some days I wanted to RI my eyeballs out but eventually after about a million iterations I finally arrived with something that we both liked and I'm really proud of the end result sure I felt like this process took a lot of hard work and dedication and being critical about uh you know my own art but being able to do something experimental in the first place and carry it out through completion is just like this incredibly invaluable

experience to me and in a way uh being able to experiment like this not being afraid to make mistakes and try out weird stuff has bled into my other work as well so here are just some of the prototypes with my design uh that has been really driven visually morning makeup Madness started out as something I doodled in Photoshop and then I found out that incorporating this drawing mechanic that uh players could you know like do creative stuff with is like a really cool way to let players be expressive with their work so um after I like made all these assets I just brought them in unity and then uh added some constraints with code like a countdown and some colliders that would generate a score wobble yoga is another uh visually driven game so I wanted to learn about hinges that week in joints uh in unity so I kind of made this like little floppy toy and then I added some more constraints uh like very simple

ones like adding a meter to the bottom of the screen and having poses that you needed to match here's a two-player game where one player is the octopus and the other player is the hand with the fork and it later evolved into this prototype which is a a single player game basically the player controls my hand and depending on the food that you're holding my head will react differently to it so I'll Chase on healthy foods and avoid healthy foods yeah so I'm not really the first person to do this there are so many games out there that approach design with visuals first or at least place an equal if not more important emphasis on the visual aesthetic so H Hokum by Ricky hagget and Richard hog is one example Monument Valley by us two wrestling with emotions by team laser beam nog by co-op mode and uh anything made

by sock Pub uh so we mentioned how cuteness grabs our attention and how it can act as a mask to disarm our expectations and how it gives us room to experiment now I want to bring you to my final Point cuteness connects us it's inherently relatable I want to quickly talk to you about s uh Sano again so I don't know if anyone else is familiar with this uh character but his name is Gama and he's a lazy egg always with this face of Despair and kind of locking in spunk and gyama is hard to motivate and has this extremely negative and deist attitude on his official Twitter account he writes I don't really feel like tweeting every day it's such a bother I'll do it because the hups tell me to do it but I know I'm going to be eaten in the end but here's the thing Gama is super

relatable everyone loves him despite his lazy demeanor and his negative outlook on life I want to quickly bring your attention to a couple of games that share similarities to Gama's appeal uh there are more and more creators right now creating weird and personal and really intimate stuff but I'm just going to mention two creators that have personally inspired my work a lot so the first one is Nina Freeman who is a huge role model for me she's maybe the reason why I started making personal games in the first place because I saw and played her work and it opened my eyes to the possibility of making really deeply personable personal and vulnerable stuff she recently released Kimmy um for Humble Bundle and I think uh the steam release uh is going to come soon so definitely check it out when it comes out uh you may also know her other game Syble which she released like over a year ago and um cibil is an autobiographic game uh where you play as 19-year-old uh

you play as a 19-year-old girl um who has met this guy online and falls in love with him basically and you know her relationship with him is UN is revealed through this MMO that they play together and I think this game does a great job of tying in this cute and relatable aesthetic to deliver this super personal narrative and help players situate themselves in Nina's point of view another one of her games that I think really showcases his point of cute being relatable and personable is how do you do it you're this little girl whose mom steps out of the house and you're curious about sex so you try to get an idea of what that's like by playing with dolls and I think so many of us have done that as children and I really like this game because I think it puts uh it celebrates teenage girls and their sexual agency and it's finally this game which gives women a sense of autonomy without without having to relate their selfworth to what a man thinks of them I

think it does a really great job using this cute visual aesthetic and these goofy playful mechanics uh that just help get the point across and this aesthetic just really resonated with me both as a designer and as a player another developer who I really like a lot is Lee Leia Shan Felder you might have heard her uh heard this game she made with Peter Lou for The Connect called perfect woman and the main mechanic here is body bending so you start as a fetus in your mother's womb and you perform in front of a connect to mimic various poses that appear on screen uh to act out this character it also uses these super Goofy and bright visuals to poke fun and lighten this more serious subject matter allowing us to engage and maybe think about what it means to be a woman in this Society Leia also made this game called o the goal is simple you have to have as sex with have sex with as many men

before you get married and the structure has a lot to say about the sexual constraints uh that women find themselves in you know it does such a great job intertwining game mechanics and narrative and the cuteness comes across here with this sense of humor which effectively allows us to deliver these more serious topics all these games that I just mentioned are games that use this cute aesthetic to get across these deeply personal and intimate subjects anyway let's talk about consume me uh like I mentioned before it's a personal game about my experience of dieting it's still currently a work in progress and mostly made up of prototypes that demonstrate the kinds of mechanics I'd like to incorporate into the game in some of these prototypes the player must fit pieces of food Tetris style in a plate to hit a calorie Target count or put the Avatar through strenous workout routines and show the protagonist's distress as she tries on a

crop top by making you feel obsessed with calories looking at Food strangely and mechanically and fret over losing weight consumi puts the player into the mind of the Dieter these prototypes explore a three-way dynamic between the player the character in the game and the fact that the character is based off of me the author what does it mean to push and prod the character into certain eating behaviors when the player doesn't get full control of the character's thoughts in internal state I know the game looks really cute and silly especially for such a dark subject matter however the game didn't always have this goofy looking aesthetic it actually started out a lot more serious okay so the next couple things I'm going to show here may be triggering to some people with body image issues and eating disorders so I'd suggest looking away or prepare yourself so this is actually uh I guess like the basis for my game back in high school I was really not happy with the way I look so I decided to go on a diet I found myself obsessively fixating on

calorie counts and exercising so here are pages from my notebook where I did these things little by little I began to see progress but it wasn't enough for me because I was doing these incredibly unhealthy habits you know these behaviors that uh eventually slowed down my weight loss so I just kept on increasing my efforts to doing something more drastic I started like going on these really weird and extreme diets like the 2 468 diet where I would end up cycling 200 400 600 800 calories and I definitely couldn't keep this up because it wasn't sustainable so in order for me to reach my goal uh or this is how I thought I could reach my goal I started developing this set of rules for myself to strictly follow I would make myself write everything down that I ate I would never allow myself to eat more than 1,000 calories a day some of these rules were really kind of messed up and ridiculous like never eat anything you don't know the calorie count of or wait

at least 3 hours before sleeping in your last meal I didn't know but I guess I felt like I could control my destiny with these rules I wanted to meet my weight goals so badly that I would do anything even create you know like these ridiculous constraints up in my head which you know kind of sounds like a game and at my worst point I would end up looking at these like very dark and depressing images that I would use as motivation to help me lose weight and this is actually this athetic that I was considering about uh considering using for my game so here were some mockup here were some images I mocked up before I started prototyping like as concept art and yeah I was really thinking of exploring this darker tone and mood however I think what prevented me from actually choosing this visual style is that I think there's a lot more Nuance to dieting than just this depressing aspect which took place in my life dieting is awkward and strange it's

empowering sometimes horrible sometimes and we need a conversation with nuance and honesty about it so I want to place the powerful feelings of self-consciousness and anxiety front and center with this discomforting undercurrent of humor is it okay to play or have fun with someone else's pain by giving you permission to poke fun at my own suffering these mechanics attempt to bring humor and vulnerability to this serious and uncomfortable subject matter so yeah I hope I've uh in these past 30 minutes I've shown you how to make uh I I've shown you that you're making a mistake when you undervalue what cuteness can do uh which brings me to the end of my talk and just to quickly sum everything up uh you know cuteness can be sometimes dismissed as childish and not really taken super seriously but you know it grabs our attention it can act as a mask to hide darker motives um it gives us room to experiment and it connects us because

it's relatable and personable which leads me to say that cuteness is actually pretty valuable anyway I hope I've convinced you that cuteness is in fact incredibly powerful and not something we should overlook or undervalue there's a lot of potential to exploring design which Embraces cuteness whether it be through mechanics or through the visual style of a game adopting cuteness not only allows us to be attention grabbing and disarming but also encourages us to empathize relate and Care thank [Applause] [Applause] you it's good want question H either way should I do question does anyone have any

questions I can't yeah hey um on your big list of your like your teenage list you had one I think like far from the top that said uh May was like record everything you eat stay motivated and don't tell MH what is not telling wait sorry could you repeat that question one more time um like one of the lists said uh oh stay motivated and don't tell right and what does that mean uh well because I never actually uh you know lost enough weight to be like qualified as like anorexic I never felt like I was qualified as being sick and I felt like I was just it was like a really shameful thing to be obsessed with and care so that's why I was like I don't want to tell anyone about it that's what my mind told me

do you have any examples of games that you think could have done a lot better if they had a cute aesthetic and missed out um H I don't want to like say horrible things about other games like non cute Aesthetics I guess uh I don't know I can't I I don't know I feel like I can't answer that right now yeah um you seem to be really natural at uh finding an expressing cuteness do you have any suggestions for those of us who uh might not be so well- inclined I think uh you should definitely um just like consume cuteness and like look at it around you and I would would definitely recommend like having a tumbler and just reblogging

stuff that you like and keeping a folder on your desktop that you know you just add images to that's what I do a lot to help develop my aesthtic and I think that anyone can do that thanks yeah hi I'm really B fan of your work um do you have any advice for people that are not necessarily represented within the games industry that don't have a lot of access to like games education for like tools that they could use to tell more about themselves personal games like to make personal games um I would definitely suggest uh using twine first of all because I think that's a great tool especially if we don't have a lot of uh background knowledge in programming um I think like my advice when it comes to this stuff is like go to game jams and meet people and collaborate with them and also be sure to finish small projects so um don't make something that's like really huge and is just start small and like finish

the game and just keep doing that over and over again and you know uh be weird about it and don't be afraid to like talk about vulnerable stuff thank you yeah hi thank you for your presentation um I was really curious about the relationship between visual Aesthetics and mechanics and I wanted to ask if you thought there was such a thing as a cute mechanic a a what mechanic a cute game mechanic a cute game mechanic um I feel like some of the games that I uh talked about like perfect woman um and how do you do it have these goofy silly mechanics which I personally find cute um so I would say yeah like games that I guess emphasize like physics maybe uh like looseness wobbliness I find really cute and charming and that can be developed uh using VIs first and I think the other aspect of that is there a

physicality about that sort of like messiness in those game mechanics which is interesting as well cuz that seems to be common across the games you were citing great thank you Hi how are you thank you for your talk it was very adorable thank you um I wanted to ask you uh someone said outside that you have like a YouTube channel or did I missar that or like you do a show is that true um I really wanted to do YouTube for a long time so there's probably a channel out there that I uploaded videos to um but I don't really have an official one right now would it be possible for you to reshare your contact information if you did that did you do that I missed the beginning CU there's a yeah I can definitely do that really fast okay and then uh my last thing was would it be okay if I answered somebody else's question the person who asked about how to emphas how if they don't feel inclined on cuteness sure okay um my other suggestion for that would be find somebody who really likes likes cuteness hi I really like

cuteness that's a good yeah that's a good suggestion if you really want more cuteness in your game find somebody who emphasizes it and asks them for help so thank you nice to meet you of course hi I really like your talk I mean people keep saying that so I have to say it now um but it's also true um where do you personally I guess cute and Charming kind of go hand in hand but where do you kind of draw the line between them because there are games that are Charming but aren't cute and there's games that are cute but are not Charming so I think uh the way I'd like to like I'd like to draw the line uh with like cute having this aspect of silliness and goofiness and you know doing something kind of like dumb maybe and being able to laugh at that so yeah so it's kind of like self like finding the humor in yourself yeah yeah I think that definitely ties into it cool thank you

yeah I think oh hey oh um so I am I kind of interpret what you're saying is U cuteness is something that allows us to address ourselves without neglecting ourselves uhhuh um and I was wondering how you think that this kind of like personal game making that you're going seem to be going for with uh some of your recent projects yeah fits into the scope of what people like an anthropy saying about like stepping in people's shoes and the likes of that um is your question like how does my game making uh or the games that I've made fit into this like overall uh I guess like uh like all these games that are being made about personal and intimate subjects like that yeah I mean I think that like people need to create uh like keep making them and I it's a hard thing to do because they're not like

really marketable or it's like really hard for that to happen and I mean I guess like my personal feeling about that is like like we just need to keep making more of this and not be afraid to like charge for our work and like uh ask to be paid for this hard work that we do you know but I think like at at the same time it's like equally challenging because like when you you know charge for a game then like significantly fewer people are going to play it and buy it and I guess like the way I'm approaching this right now is like I I don't know right now I just kind of see myself like making these really short cute things that uh draw people's attention and can be played very quickly and I think that's like a good way of like uh sharing your personal experience by making it like very uh like visually focused so people like YouTubers and you know streamers can play it uh but yeah those are my

thoughts on that thanks everyone for all your questions but unfortunately we have to move on to the next speaker so thank you everyone thanks Jenny thank you