Music as Gameplay: The 'Lullaby of Life' Journey with Francisco Lara Sikorski | 344

hey guys a quick message before we start this week's episode I want to share some details I know there was like a for longtime listeners out there it was a bit of a uh break that I took and uh going through some personal challenges family related stuff but as well as like physical challenges uh I actually tore my Meniscus uh and was basically in Mobile for uh a few weeks up to month I'm still actually recovering from that and so I I needed to kind of concentrate on other things at the same time I just uh mentally was getting exhausted um you know focusing on uh actually pretty exciting things at the same time uh more details on that but my company godic is finally you know discovering uh and developing our own IP uh this is actually a a very uh fun per

period for uh our company and we were able to kind of focus on uh delivering something for GDC demo uh for game developer conference that we went to San Francisco got some very interesting talks uh with uh potential Publishers that were still engage with uh I think when time is right I definitely want to share with you guys uh and actually get your guys thoughts other than that um you know finally backlogging these EP episodes uh so that you they're going to be more routinely released uh on Tuesdays uh 600 a.m. Pacific time so for those hammering and wanting to find answers in this uh difficult period for game developers out there I'm back right I also want to share like a huge uh move uh for for those that are interested to go into our Discord you know I'm thinking of

starting to live stream uh a lot of these episodes so for those who who want an early preview or the kind of uh keyword of the Year Early Access uh completely free uh go ahead and join our Discord Channel and so that you can participate and watch and be part of the show uh essentially uh in our Discord uh also my primary output for anything beyond the Tuesday episodes has been on X uh as well as Instagram so Instagram will primarily uh focus on kind of like my fitness uh and Recovery that I'm undergoing uh if you want to understand or learn what I've been going through uh this is actually a great time to go on Instagram follow gain of Unchained uh

without the e so gain of unchain u n c h a i n d uh to to kind of follow my journey on recovery and maybe pick up a few things on on Fitness uh that will help kind of bulletproof your your body so that you don't have to go through what I go through on an XX uh or formerly known as Twitter I share a lot of my opinions on current topics as well as post clips and and episodes uh and as usual you know YouTube is a good resource for for for full episode uh with video for those who are just listeners uh as well as short clips the show is running on uh on pure passion so if you want to help if you want to contribute uh become a subscriber on Spotify that is a great way to kind of

support the show as well as uh be a part of the show uh with extra perks behind the scenes look uh to to uh the show itself but also uh extended interviews with the guests uh of each episode all right let's go right into the episode [Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev onchain the number one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host Brandon fam and with me a special guest Francisco Laura sakori or Paco yeah hi hi Brandon nice to be here nice to meet you man uh this is the part of the podcast where I ask our guest which is yourself to introduce yourself to the listeners and Audi out there

where you been where you at where you heading sure sure so uh I am I am I am Mexican I was born here in Mexico uh and my background it's in in marketing and advertising I love I love you know advertising and and all those kind of visual things but live has you know moved me to the video game scene because I've I've I've enjoyed games since I was little and then some of the brands that I used to work for they said hey can we do some games on web so by 2010 I started doing uh some web games flash games in that time uh and yeah that's you know that's how things have been shifting me to the you know the today that we are uh you know launching lolab of live that it's a PC and console game so very excited to see how this journey from web games to mobile now all

the way to to steam and PC fantastic uh just kind of digging into the the the development team themsel uh so how big is your team currently for for shipping the scam so the the full team we are around 16 177 uh but to the you know the part of the team that worked on laai was around five or six uh because we do have a a other projects but we tend to have our projects with a team of around six it's so is this through a lot of um a background of just developing many games you guys found like that number five to six to create a new IP to create a new project is usually like the great good number uh yeah I I I feel so we as an indie developer you know it's it's it's easier to manage the team and and

you know the process when we're not a lot of people in it because when you have more people it's it's more you know the communication it's it's difficult and sometimes it's it's harder to lose control so just having like one or two per per area of the you know of the project it's easiest I think that the the the biggest part of it has to be always development right to have two or three developers and then one or two artists and and the producer and all that so yeah I think that six it's a it's a good number so in the past you guys have obviously uh you were mentioning you know the Journey of your your team to eventually uh developing L life going through mobile now PC and that that expansion like what are the key differences developing for a smaller platform to a bigger uh like for console and and for Steam and things like that yeah it's a very good question because

yes it is very diffic you know it's very different and there's different challenges there um I decided to start with um with mobile because that's something more manageable you know when you start uh since we we we used to do a lot of Flash and then was that was easy to change into you know a video game to a game because Flash websites were like a little bit interactive and all that so to migrate to flash games was it was something that came very easy uh and then to transition to mobile then has a challenges right to you know all this uh preparing everything for the stores and if you have something to you know sell in the in the games or in a purchases advertising and all that and then when you shift to to PC or or to you know to this consult oh man that's you know that's a bigger kind of challenge where you need need to have a

lot of things to consider and right now like uh just reflecting on on the pH of quality assurance you know all the Bucks and the different things that you may encounter and you know that the possible users can May encounter with the game it it is it is a big challenge so so I believe that the the the path that we took from smaller kind of games and experience to bigger ones has been the best way to goh uh before we dive into the project itself I would love to kind of get more insight because the the mobile market the console Market uh has always been at least for developers right I always kind of share with our listeners out there that it really feels like it's two different developers a lot of times there's not a lot of cross pollination like in terms of like people jumping from console to mobile mobile to console it's changing but the you most of the time it's like a separate Lane

right um I wonder like over the years you know with your uh origination from The Flash to the mobile market how has the mobile market evolved uh because we're starting to see a lot of AAA going into the mobile market like pubg or war zone and and a lot of times I feel like the kind of failing to see what the mobile market is about you're sitting there waiting for like 20 minutes to download something and you still haven't played it's like what's going on so I would love to kind of get your Insight about what's going on there with more uh of these other uh developers getting to that space and how it's changing yeah yeah you know that that that's a very good uh you know reflection to me because yes mobile and PC or console were very different and were very far apart some some time back you know some years ago but now you know that that

that bridge has has been changing and I remember that when we started doing mobile you know all this uh as you said you know this triaa kind of games were just for PC or you know specific consoles um and for mobile was just this market with the uh you know this casual players right and maybe uh candy crush kind of things right that you just you know have people with smaller set and all that but you know that it has been changing a lot and now it's it's difficult to to to consider what is mobile and what is you know PC or console because you you see even more games are bigger and better produced and with better graphics on on on mobile because you have the capability you know and hardware and then you go to to consoles like switch

when when you compare it you know a switch to a maybe an iPhone 15 or Samsung 24 whatever and in Hardware it's even better sometimes right on on those on those mobiles so so the bridge between hardware and and the time you spend on the different devices has been changing and it gives you a better opportunity to either have more casual stuff going to you know to to to consoles like I I love playing like Puzzles and I have the steam deck so I play a monument value on Steam deck right and and Monument value started in in in in Mobile right and then you have these big games are are also in Mobile because mobile can process and they can they can handle this type of game so so I believe that it's a good challenge now that you can have this very in-depth games with a lot of visuals on mobile and the sessions are longer and you can stay there but also you can bring more

casual games to to PC and that's kind of the way we we we tend to be as a studio that we we attend to this Market where where this casual gamers and more um how can I say cozy kind of of players and want to spend their time also on the PC or on the console the uh for loli Life music is a big central theme to the game uh would you mind kind of talking about what inspired that idea sure yeah you know I I I started and this is just to give you a little bit of of background when I when I thought about making games the main idea for me was to tell a story in in an experience right and having this experience I love I love movies I love you know branding as I said and and TV shows and all that

but with games we have this interaction and this way of letting people decide which way they can go right and what they want to do and and we and and of course Sound and Music is a very important part of it right so so for the Lola of Life what we wanted is we wanted to make the sound and in integral part of the experience of the game so the mechanics and the way you experience the game depend on of course the sound that you're making and the combination of notes that you're you're you're doing for the puzzles to so you can progress on it so since the very the very beginning of the of the idea of the game we were in talks with this composer and we we talked about how the music will react on on what the things you do on the game and and we have you know the soundtrack but if if you hear the soundtrack and you and you try to hear

the the same music in the game you will see that the the game or the music reflects how you're evolving inside the game so that's something that we we believe was very an ingal part of it and actually the the the way this the music is is is done it it evolves through the levels so we have we have uh seven levels in the game but the the music from the first level is very different from the seventh level do you mind kind of diving a little deeper about the the process to design the music and sound effects it being such part of the game yeah yeah yeah so so the game is B it's puzzle based right and and how you solve the puzzles is a combination of of sound uh timing and and and where you're located right so you have this this character called Bumbo that's this Catalyst of life and he has this different Companions and

and you need to click or or interact you know with the different elements in a specific way with with the sounds so the main idea of the game and the core of the game is the beginning of Life and the creation of life in the universe right so that's kind of the the the the main idea the question is how did life you know came to be in the universe um so this kind of was our answer so we think that maybe you know life came through a bunch of chain reactions of things and those chain reactions started with the sound waves right that's the sound waves that you make so so these sounds you know are different from one another so we have percussion sounds we have you know this string based sounds and we have this air based sounds so with this combination of

things then you can evolve the you know it evolves on the music but it also evolves on the kind of puzzles that you need to solve it being such an integral part of the game itself how um how did you ensure that it was a functional part of the game play I mean in terms of Designing like how how did you guys go about brainstorming each of these levels to Future the progression of the the music complexity I guess uh as well as the player interaction with the with music yeah that that was a challenge you know uh Brandon yeah you're you're you're touching some some specific details that it was challenging because it's not just making sound and just you know it doesn't matter we wanted to to balance the game and and you know and the mechanics that that you can you can see how the way you you you click on the sound it makes it makes sense you know

that you hear them and and they're they're harmonious but also uh it it it becomes more challenging because you get more notes so let's say like we're in an instrument maybe there's an instrument that has one two notes and then it starts getting difficult like piano or something like that it has a lot an organ right it has a lot of notes so that's kind of the way we we wanted to to see the game right let's start with something that has just one note and it it helps you understand a little bit of oh okay with this note I can do this and I can I can do that and then oh there's another note here okay what what how they interact with each other and how you know the pacing of waiting from one note to another it helps on unlocking some of the things so yes it was a lot of trial and error and and what we wanted is to create an a a very curated experience because all the levels are are you know are are handmade you know

very Precision made and and it it involved a lot of of timing and evolution and and you know making tweaks and changes on that so it feels more how can I say like yeah balance and fluid right well music for you obviously is a big part it sounds like of your life your being your personality uh I'm not as well versed I'm sure but you know growing up I played instruments went through music programs myself right uh you may or may not be aware you know but school programs nowadays are more and more or less and less having the Arts especially music programs like if I compare myself to my my children's experience with music being part of their school program it's almost non-existent it's becoming extracurricular activity which is uh for

obvious reasons it's a shame because to me it was a big part of my life Middle School part of High School uh just being around those types of people right uh but also just enjoying what I feel what you guys are doing an expression of Life uh in in in in its core value right of being a person uh I would love to kind of just hear kind of your thoughts about you know how things are changing at least for that like the impact of Music itself being a part of like what you know with designing a game and how you you guys are seeing players are interacting with your game and seeing the thrill of music and uh correlating with life itself what what are children missing nowadays or young adults missing without this this way of how we thought about our perspective of Life uh yeah we experience yeah yeah I totally agree

Brandon you know it's it's times have been changing and certain abilities or or how can I say Lo yeah or or or things that there were like a must to learn before have shifted right so now it's more you know on this digital devices and how you use technology better right and how you are more aware what information is real or what's not so you you need have this different things now and these different tool sets and the problem is that it's you to in order to make space for that you need to take something off right in the curriculum and and those things sometimes are art and some extracurricular as they as as you know as it's planned but I believe and and and and we we've seen it with this game because there's an Insight here that's very important is that when we started testing the the game uh we

saw that a lot of kids love the game and they stay on the game and they don't need an explanation any any explanation about how to play the game and and and and go through the game and it helps them on reconnecting on this kind of different uh abilities that they have in their core right and uh and we we believe you know as a studio and because this is something that came up as as as as as a team that you know having this elements as sound and and because the game is a very good combination we try to have a very good combination of sound but also a lot of visuals right so a lot of elements evolve and change through the game and we wanted to reflect that and and and we've seen that kids are the ones that connect a lot of that they they say oh yeah you know it's okay this makes sense I need to click here and then go here and do this kind of you know of this of this um movements and

and that helps them on the way they they you know they try to to relate to that so I I do believe that that music and and and and not even music you know the the play on something that gives you a little of a Mastery like a an instrument or or a tool or maybe a craft it's something that it's important to reconnect with Alo with all your body right because sometimes now you just focus on maybe your eyes and your mind and but you need to reconnect with you know all your parts of the of the of your body to to be how could I say like yeah more connected to to your to to to everything right yeah I don't know if it makes sense no it totally makes sense like I think uh like children or or anyone who who's approaching I I think that's why interactive medium is so great with everything especially educational

purposes like it keeps kids engaged I mean I think you probably seen this but there's so many times where uh these like kind of uh experiments you know they have a kid planted in front of a TV and it's like 30 minutes of like educational information and then they did and you just see the kids like squirming around for those two hours right and then they put like Star Wars on and they just sit still for an hour like games have like in a way of like uh extending Beyond just the movie Medium right their interaction allows children to participate right in in with the educational platform and it could be very much the the the Savior for for for all these extracurricular activities being cut from schools right it's like games might be our way of like trying to bring it back and that's the one thing uh that really stood out when when seeing your guys's game um thank

you uh in terms of the development process uh for La life how how how did it differ from the other projects your your team has worked on before so we we we tend to be a very a very how can I say like um oriented on things create something that we like right so things that we we enjoy doing as an indie of course an indie developer we have the opportunity right to say yeah we wanted to work on this and we don't want to work on that so uh we we tend to always participate on game jams you know these events where you have 48 hours to create an idea of a of a game yeah and we've participated several times and in in a specific year uh we participated as a team and the the concept because they always give you 48 hours and just a concept yeah they just throw word there and with that word you can go whatever you want and that year

the concept was waves right so game Jam concept concept waves and and that was the beginning of Lula of life right so we we we started in a game Jam something that came very quick us to quickly to us say okay we have waves what is waves we we you know we can go to the ocean you can go to different things and we say okay sound waves right and then sound turnning what can you do with sound and as as you as you as you as you've seen uh we believe that sound is very important to everything so so sound so okay sound waves you can create live with sound because it's it's energy and it's and it's this vibration of things right that's kind of the concept how it started and then it evolved to the first you know iterations of of the game on how this sound wve started to bring life to different things and uh and then it got more you know

more more how can I say a mix between um a lot of you know things are yes uh uh like like chemistry or physics but also metaphysics and energy so this game is like a combination of the different aspects of we as a team that we believe you know in in in science yes but we also believe in the ontap things that we don't know and this you know in this energy that we can't see so so it's it's a mix of those things you know in this game so it's kind of a weird way of how we evolve the idea of something that waves into something that we create life with with chemistry and physics but also with energy and things that we don't see right what uh what tools or technology you guys use that was crucial in making the game did you guys experiment with uh new tools that you haven't used before in the project to make it possible or you guys relied on more things that have

been tried and true and and and and was more about execution yeah yeah yeah yeah so yeah we we try to do both both of those things we we work always with unity Unity has been our tool for several years now uh so we feel confident on that tool so the base that you know the basis of the game is unity and and uh but what we did do is we create specific tools for for the like the the way we um um interact with sound so we wanted to create the sound and sound was very important so as you progress on certain parts of the game and you select different things the the sound is it's it's it it reacts to that right when we started it wasn't very common now now we see several games that react on if you're you know if you're in danger or if you're in a in a more Pacific area of whatever the music it tends to change but we wanted to make a

combination of different uh parts of the same song that change so the way a normal game is done is that okay we have this track that is for the you know the normal part of the game and when then we change to this track when it's like danger right and then we change to this track when it's it's happy part right and we didn't want to take that approach so we created a tool where where the the the the sound or the music gets it's divided by different parts of it and then we uh you know we we we turn on and off different parts of the same song so that or we changed some of them so it is the same base song but it changed the tone and the ambience of it so that was kind of the one of the tools that we explored on the game for uh a while like there was a good stretch especially in the '90s early 2000s right Rhythm base games were huge I mean everybody played guitar here

everyone played rock band right and then you know for a little while it it stopped but now we're starting to see a Resurgence with I guess fortnite Festival fortnite concerts you know especially when they bought harmonics that probably did a big boost and we're we're we're I I beginning to see more and more people uh getting back to to being interested in these not exactly uh not sure how people feel about peripherals anymore right yeah but people are asking for this I think uh like especially fortnite Festival people are playing with their mouse and keyboard like hey are you guys G to start shipping out guitars again uh people are are asking for it so I would love to kind of get your Insight on on that um sector uh that you guys are in with rhythm based music uh you guys are more music targeted right no referals but like along that that theme of Music

based games yeah I think that you know I think that as you're saying you know that type of game is is is trending it's starting to Trend a little bit more it it does help that this kind of big Brands and these big games like as fortnite and all that you know they they're bringing that back and they're integrating that but I think that that's something that it's very familiar and common on this type of of of games and and and experiences because sound has been very is it always has been important you know to everything right so music is a very important industry and and and sound is what makes the difference of a lot of stuff right you you don't experience the the things the same way without sound or without sound effects and when when you have them uh that's why you know movies in space they put sounds in explosions and something like that when there isn't any sound right but you need to hear it right um so we we are not a very we know as a

studio we don't tend to be a rhythm based uh kind of game Studio but we do believe that sound and music it's a core value of of a game right it's not something that oh we did this game and then we just you know bought some tracks and put it on and all that um we don't have the budget you know maybe to have this Orchestra you know do all the the things that we want wanted but I'm a very big fan of of Christopher Nolan you know and this his movies like Inception or Interstellar and all those movies even open Heimer you know the latest one that if we if we try to see like who are the key players of a movie like open Heimer or Inception or whatever sound or music is one of them and and I I'm I'm I'm reaching here on the limb saying not not even music sometimes but the sound effects right and the sound mixing so so

we do tend to have games that sound mixing and sound effects are very important to it yes sometimes like this game puzzle and we wanted to have this Rhythm based puzzles but for the other projects it might not be something Rhythm based but sound will be a very important part of it you know uh so being an IND developer um there's always Challen Alles to the beginning process right the concept process uh can be challenging but fun but the the the one that is usually still mysterious even when like experienced team like yourself went through it many times it's the funding part finding a publisher self-publishing how was that this time uh did you guys end up going with the publisher did you guys consider self-publishing what options were you guys looking at that stage do you guys with went with a familiar partner from

before uh so yeah you you know you touched a very delicate Point funding it's and this year you know last year and this year has been the topic you know of the industry you know getting funds and a lot of Indies have been having problems with that and all that um so let me tell you a little bit about the story of this game this game has been evolving so we had this idea of a game and we some concept of it and did a prototype and then it it got picked by Apple arcade right so we were fortunate enough to partner with apple in in in their program in apple arcade so we had an we had a a version of of the L of Life there and it stay there and we we learn a lot with you know what with the users there and all that and then when we when we finished the the exclusivity with them we decided that we wanted to um evolve the game better visuals better

experience on some of the of the mechanics and and a little bit longer uh uh levels and and um puzzles and all that so we we we started doing that with some uh budget that we had but uh we were looking for you of course funds to board and to you know take to other places the game and we were fortunate enough to find mid West and we didn't know about them before but it was luckily that their motto is you know great games come from anywhere and we are in a part of the world that sometimes it's hard to get financed right and some to get get support uh Mexico is very you know it's it's it's you know it's side by side to the US but the conditions on how we get support or funding are very different right with um uh so it's hard to get funding here and finding partners that believe on and you know on this markets

like us and and and and that games come from different parts of the world it made us you know have a good partner with them and and yes we did partner with them to to publish this and to put it but it was also good that we already had a very strong product that that was you know uh already tested and we could you know uh bring to other platforms and try to have a very good success also right what are the like hottest topic now with game developers from All Size from Indie to triaa is the idea of uh Early Access right for for you guys you kind of got your Early Access by releasing it on Apple arcade uh and I would love to kind of dive deeper into the user feedback but let me finish my question like this idea that um a lot of games are more and more open to uh involving uh players uh to their Road of version 1.0 right um before uh for

many listeners it it they probably know but companies were kind of in charge of hiring their own QA Department right just hiring a number of people to test their game 247 but now it's becoming more and more open to the just number one true fans essentially like early adopters to to be constantly there with the Developers and essentially be a part of the game they enjoy but also be a part of uh telling the developers what they enjoy or why they don't enjoy it right so uh you kind of talked a bit about that process uh after releasing it on the App Store uh can you kind of di a little deep like what kind of user testing feedback that you got what tools did you guys use for that was it like more from uh integrated uh review system or or with with iOS right uh how exactly

did you guys get that feedback and what kind of feedbacks were you guys getting to to adjust for for this version of laabi Life yeah sure sure uh yeah yeah I totally agree with you you know times have been changing a lot and uh and Early Access is is it's something that it's more open to and people are uh you know take they they take this in a very uh you know positive kind of way uh I think that it it changed because a lot of people were mad about you know launches that didn't feel complete I know that one of those you know one of the biggest ones I can remember is cyber Punk right and and said well there's this big huge expectations of this game I have me even I had very huge spectations of the game and it's launched and you feel like what's going on right what's going on here here right and and if we shift just the mindset and

say well we have this big big game you know and and people understand you know that games take a lot of time and you know it's a long period of time to for build to build that and a lot of money so if you just shift the way that you sell that idea and say well this isn't the finished product this is an early access but I want you to give me to help me make it the best possible project then that shift of mind it's it it totally makes a you know a big change on on how people see it right and I see that that early access has been gaining attraction because of that you know it's we have this idea of this big game that has a lot of stuff in it and we need you to help make it better and as you said you know where people are engaged with the game they're open to give you suggestions and and help you improve it and even they they help you find more bucks and more things that break the game that you could ever find you know

um and and for us you know for us now specifically for the LA of life and this journey that we had from Apple uh Apple arcade to where we are right now yes it did help us as you said as an early access you know because we had a specific uh uh uh amount of people that were on the platform that gave us feedback on the game the way that we received that on that specifically was on on on on review based yeah it was review based you know hey I had problem this or they they contact us directly on on our contact platform and say well I have problems with this or I make want to change make these changes and that's where we learned you know about that a lot of kids enjoy the game right and there there were even parents that that they were contacting now saying hey you know my kid love it and he's learning a lot on different things like you know be be more on on on how to use the

controller and all that kind of things but it help also helped us on on involving the the user experience so it did helped us in Early Access we didn't we didn't do it like that but yes I believe that right now if we see it as as you know as a step back on that it did help having that first you know iteration in in applearcade that helped us as an early access stage to have a better product right now that we're launching MH for uh developers out there um like one of the biggest things among many things right you kind of mentioned it before uh last year this year is probably the toughest period for any game developer from all over the world doesn't matter where you're at it's like I've never seen it like this where month after

month there seems to be like this endless amount of layoffs game developers back into the market uh there's just seems to be like an impossible uh uh unbalance of of of people who are finding jobs and the jobs that are available and uh even if somehow we are able to to kind of find all these jobs again like um it it seems to be a real challenge like what is your just as a developer as a fan of the industry a fan of games what are your thoughts about what's going on right now um just you know your overall perspective yeah yeah I feel you Brandon you know I feel you because I'm you know I'm in one of the receiving ends here you know part of the being part of the of the uh you know um team and leaders of a team you know that has you know in

this industry has been tough uh before we had more projects and you know we had some uh possibilities of investment that didn't closed last year and that you know that that didn't help a lot and we had we have been struggling but my take on this is this is very this is more this is my personal opinion is that the industry grew and grew and grew you know a lot and it got more expensive each time yeah I I I believe that this is this is a reflection of what happened also with companies like like uh you know Facebook or or now meta right and Microsoft and Amazon and all that that they grew so much and they paid each time more and more because they were competing because the the you know the the the artists or the developers it's you it's hard to find the good ones right so how you compete with well with

money right but then you you turn this industry to a very a very uh uh expensive industry right and I feel that that that that happened a little bit also in this you know in games you know you you you're trying to get the best team possible how do you do that you well you you you pay more or you give more incentives or so so your company becomes a more expensive Ive company you so you need to earn earn more and the problem is that the profits and the way you know the they how you are uh you know um maybe growing on the earnings are not the same reflection as before because you have more expenses and you're you're fighting with more competition It's a combination a lot of stuff so my guess is that that most of these big companies or you know and this big layoffs that we're seeing is just it's just a restri structure because they're too expensive now right so they

need to change the way they they conduct business to be more profitable again and then yes it will it's it's it's it's it's I think that it's it's making two things yes a lot of people are are without jobs but they're creating new type of opportunities with Indies maybe and new Partnerships but also try to have a an industry that it's more based on on quality and not just you know all all I'll give you the most I can on on money and not on the the idea of the project that we're creating I don't know if that makes sense Brandon yeah totally makes sense I I think I I mentioned it many times um to the listeners out there that I I felt like there were a couple of things I mean we just the result of this past two years was directly you know uh tied to the previous two years the co right so I I totally agree there was

like definitely an inflation of salaries and uh like um and the remote work is disruptive and it's hard for me to say that because you know I feel remote work does amazing things for a lot of developers I mean it helped um kind of keep uh developers not have to move to like these very expensive hubs essentially right because you know these game companies are in concentrated areas at least in America and uh they're usually around very expensive cities uh and uh at that time you know before covid uh the salaries you know game Game Dev salaries are are nothing like Tech salaries right but we're like we're going to the same you know uh lunch area and dinners we live in the same area right um but remote definitely helps with that uh being you

know allowing you to live wherever you want uh near family and friends have that support system so in case things happen you don't have to uproot your family which is what I personally went through I moved so many times uh chasing uh really good jobs I mean that's usually how it works right you know you want the really good job you got to move there um and a lot of times it's still the same problems it's like game industry can be rich Ry uh you know one day they need you the next day they don't uh and then you're stuck in a very expensive city right um so I I think in that way it solved that problem however with remote it it presented new problems it's like yeah what are the good workers versus the bad workers you know and I I hate to say it but not I think a majority are bad workers remotely it's just how do you manage your time uh you know how do you divide uh from family and work right you're

essentially in the same room some people were working out at a living room it's like that's not going to work it's like so yeah so it forced a lot of it was a disruption and uh we saw the results of that I think um game games were being delayed games were not being shipped on time schedules were being pushed back uh middle managers uh getting worse at middle managing like I you know during that period we record a lot of episodes and I was hearing stories like people were monitoring slack like those little um when when the the light goes from Idol to Green yet but like producers were instructed to as soon as that that that light doesn't go goes to idle during core hours immediately penalize or like reprimand that work for stepping away from the computer but you know obviously that's a bad way to go about it but there was at the very core of it

a problem where people weren't working uh eight hours a day let's say right uh and so I I think you know all those problems hit a Breaking Point and um and it's the the the the sucky uh issue with that is like all you know it's not like the game companies or game industry um went down like we're we're more profitable this year and last year I mean what's sad is that as soon as like Microsoft like lays off 10,000 people right like two weeks later they're like record-breaking year you know uh so we keep seeing that and they just say you know a lot of companies unfortunately use this as an excuse to uh just get rid of people that they were planning to get rid of two years from now but it was a perfect time to do it because right uh you know uh it's not going to be as public or bad press right because

everyone's doing it so I felt like a lot of companies and in combination a lot of different factors use this period as an excuse to get rid of people uh based on various things it's like I I don't like how he looks at me right this is perfect time to do it uh yeah things like that it's a perfect time to get rid of that guy um without you know any backlash so I I completely agree with you um it is a restructuring um it sucks but I I do feel that it was one of those necessary things like Co was it got silly uh it got too ridiculous with the growth that we had people hiring uh at ridiculous salaries and it's like we're not making that much more money guys it's like right yeah to justify that and yeah in that period it was hard to to hire people because it was uh even though there was uh because Talent was the commodity it was a it was a sellers market right as in like the

workers are all super they know their worth they're like I'm super important I can work from home all these companies are coming after me so when we were hiring people for my company you know we had like these ridiculous salary demands I was like uh I don't think so it's like what you twoyear experience you want this much it's like you know so it became a problem as as at least from from my perspective as a as a leader uh hiring for my company so I saw like this is not going to last essentially because it wasn't 50/50 there was there was no compromise um but it was great to kind of hear your side of things because you know um uh I was kind of like in my bubble over here in primarily California but you know I have a lot of friends in the states and it was kind of hearing things like that but to kind of hear yeah all over the world it's kind of having

similar issues yeah totally is a problem uh the game industry has always been growing um you know we talked about the mobile market the PC market for L by life and how now it's like the bridge is easier you know uh for for for either to kind of uh transfer Port over right um where do you see uh and maybe this kind of touch on like future technology but like I guess the Apple vision is still testing right it hasn't really you know of an Apper product right compared to other app product it's it's kind of failing right now pretty big time right yeah I feel the same way yeah yeah I would love to kind of hear your thoughts about you know uh in terms of um technology for games right is it going to the same a little while or you think something else is going to pop

along to become another Port option essentially you know I I I feel I feel that it will happen as you just said something very important you know and a qu a few questions back about this Rhythm based games right that people don't there's there's yeah there's a niche of people that want the you know the guitar back yeah but most of us won't buy it right it's you know having another guitar that I just use it for this game or this you know instrument that it's just for this thing it's it's it's more space more you know money more you know it's difficult and I feel the same way about BR in general you know in gaming you know uh there have been a lot of people that say Hey you want to explore VR Gaming and there's some maybe there's some funds for VR Gaming and there are some opportunities for VR Gaming me myself I I I I haven't you know w wrapped around on the idea of yes let's explore that because I believe

that it's it's not mature yet and it's very risky and and you depend on on a lot of peripherals you know as you said you know a lot of things that are very expensive that are not very practical and you know it's not the best experience in my opinion right now you know I think that the way to go the way that I see it is that it it will continue the way it is but it it might change on on that it it passes a little bit more you know this games that are more available maybe on on tablets and you know this team deck and Legion go and all those kind of things are are going to I I believe that will continue trending because that's kind of a little bit more approachable for my side for my taste you know it's uh because if you want if you if you think about it you know if you are going a plane or you going to go someplace else it's easier

to bring a you know a steam deck or whatever than you know the Apple vision and just for a bunch of you know three four games and we the other things you can do a bunch of things right so yeah I'm not I'm not too Keen you know on the future on the near future you know of VR kind of gaming but yes on the bridge of Mobile on on you know more and more AAA will be more mobile mobile let's say that right not let's not just say on on on smartphones but on devices that are feel more mobile now yeah yeah I am a huge fan of the steam deck I have one myself I I I was the one of the first one that bought one of the first people that bought that finally got a dock for it so I can connect my TV in it to make it like a basically a switch but uh I'm always surprised how valve I mean they're doing well still with it but they don't really push the

advertising I was like man this should be everyone should have a steam deck if you have a steam Library you should have a steam deck I have like games for 15 years that is building still and just what other system has that except if you yeah what other system has that anymore like uh even if you get a Xbox game pass uh Game Pass or Playstation pass I mean those are cloud based games those aren't yours right once it's once you stop the Sur it's gone the steam is the only thing left that saves like a digital library of your games yeah uh but they don't adti they don't push it it's there if you want it yeah it's weird but it's it's funny you know I think that's the way of valve I I believe that they have so much opportunities that they they don't push it beyond that yeah and I'm just because I'm a fan of Bob and you know Steam and all the what they're doing and the steam deck but I feel the

same way as you Brandon you know that oh they can be they can be doing so much more right but maybe they're just they they don't want to make so much noise maybe they they have I don't know you know I don't know but they're doing very well they're doing very well and maybe that's why they don't they don't overdo it yeah they don't underd deliver you know uh they're just it's like their philosophy with Counter Strike counter was here 20 years ago it's still here yeah yeah yeah totally it's like you can still play it and it looks great Counter Strike 2 looks freaking awesome um I do have one last question for you and this is more for the uh aspiring developers out there uh what advice do you have for those uh that are interested to integrate like unique themes uh like music into their own games um for for those who are interested yeah yeah that's that's a very question so I I my my main my

main my main advice that I always try to give to you know aspiring developers is that I believe that we as developers we always or most of us most of us that we are you know on the trenches and we're making the games we started by Passion right not business side we do it because of passion you know I love this game I I remember when I was is playing Mario 64 and I want to make that experience to new players whatever right and so you start with passion and the problem is that your passion then it turns into oh I have to be a b kind of guy or you know treat some other things and and my advice is always to embrace that part right Embrace that you need to level your passion with your you know with the business savvy and when being professional and and to B bance that or to or to get or to have you know like

these Partners in your studio that have this different uh approaches uh because that will leave you more time to explore on this passion that you have right so if it sound like us with with lay of life we we took our time on okay let's explore the sound let's do this let's explore how did the universe started and why is this you know the the periodic table like the and whatever and we we took that time but at the same time that people had to do that there were other parts of the team that needed to do the business side of the project right so so my always my advice is that you need to leverage uh this passion that you have and this exploration but not to overtake that on the business side and the timing and you need to be profitable you need to be on time uh and to balance those two things right MH well uh Pac it was great talking with

you uh this actually marks our 1 hour uh congratulations you made it through hopefully it was as enjoyable for you as it was for me uh this is the part of the podcast where I actually shut up and hand the mic over to you to uh promote give attention to uh directly to the listeners and viewers out there uh about anything you want to talk about thank you thank you Brandon so yeah I want just to invite everybody to you know check out uh the lay of life it's our newest game here in one simple game and as I said you know it's a puzzle exploration game it's very very very unique it's very different from what you've seen um s level long it's available since the 30th of April on Steam epic and Gog and it will be soon available also in in on switch and Xbox so so go check that out or wish list it uh now and of course please send us your

feedback and whatever you feel about the game and and your your thoughts so we can consider that also on on on new projects but yeah thank you Brandon you know also for your time it was great being here you know talking to you and and just uh being out there you know with all your listeners and hopefully we can meet again in the future definitely uh that is it see you guys all next week [Music] [Music]