Making Lucid with Eric Manahan | 331

foreign what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev Unchained the number one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host Brandon Pham and with me a special guest Eric manahan oh look did I do it perfect perfect all right man so this is part of the podcast where I let our guest switches yourself to introduce yourself to our listeners and viewers out there of where you are where are you heading uh where you've been in the past you know all that good stuff just a little synopsis okay I can do that I think I can do that um as you said I'm Eric manahan um I am uh essentially I'm the matte black Studio I'm making a game called Lucid um it's a love letter to like my childhood gaming experiences like those

uh uh I don't know like the SNES era like a 32-bit era kind of uh platforming metroidvania I've been affectionately calling it the world's first celestoid Vania because of the heavy Celeste influence but um yeah I've been doing Game Dev as a hobby for I don't know for like 10 years I used to be an architect and I was doing it then as like a hobby and uh architecture sucks the soul out of every living thing in a 10 mile radius so I was really not enjoying it and uh yeah my little side project my little bedroom project Lucid started picking up some steam with support from my fiance she was just like uh go for it like helped me pull the trigger and a few years later we're talking to you Brandon geez all right what a journey believe it or not you're like kind of my second architect turn developer

yeah it was a it was a good friend back at um Turtle Rock but his entryway was back in valve on Half-Life where they were very open to other disciplines coming in they're one of the first right 20 years ago uh and he ended up working on Left 4 Dead Left 4 Dead 2 um but yeah I mean that's uh actually an amazing journey so you uh understanding that you went through the the schooling College route dedicated a good portion of your adult life to architect so when when exactly did you feel is it just like the industry started like hey this is not exactly how I felt okay pretty much yeah man um uh yeah I went to school for the five-year program um for anyone that care architecture you either have to do like four year then go back and take a test or you go to a five-year program you don't have to take some tests um so I did that and the schooling portion was awesome I love the the concepts the design it teaches you how

to like think about you know traversing through spaces and color and shape all that fun stuff um and uh that was awesome I really love that then you enter the workforce and then it changes because then you have to deal with like clientele and uh I happen to stumble into high-end residential in New York City and there is a very specific kind of person that you deal with a lot and it was just kind of oil and water my personality just really didn't buy it and I just always felt wrong and out of place and I met some like really cool people like co-workers but for the vast majority of my experience it was pretty pretty miserable so uh yeah I fell out of love I like I tried to I was like I'm gonna I'm gonna like this and I tried to for the longest time and it just never worked how many years did you uh about 10 plus ish like you did give or take like interns and stuff but that is a sentence

um I I can totally relate to that I mean long time listeners know kind of my story but as a background I always felt it doesn't matter what industry I think as a creative I think back my college years were the most fun in terms of the purity of it it's like the art you know just making a game it's like pure art yeah but going to the industry is it's like you said you know the the political side of things and it became less as you climb the ladder to become less and less about the art it becomes managing a lot of people right dealing with a lot of people and the funny thing is yeah and but like we found like really lifelong friends as well right the guys in the trenches are getting but like yeah anything outside of that was um was very uh deterring for of our creative output so it was a very similar journey and a lot of people I think at AAA have the same exact feeling a lot of what you see in in games is that a return to more Indie more side

projects hustles smaller teams you know just yeah it's like less um a little more like honed in Creative Vision um a team of I've been doing my very best to work with people I a like are super talented and I respect and but on the secondary uh that's secondary but first is get along with and uh uh can like hold a conversation and just enjoy being around that was a big big priority to the the little team that I've been developing behind the scenes all right let's get into the the heart of it man we're talking about you know the passion project so what when exactly did you start tinkering I mean similar you know I'm guessing with architecting well different completely different tool sets right but like really are you guys using the same Maya Mac I thought you had like your own like it was it AutoCAD or like my bad tool

sets like literal two sets um yeah sometimes I know the one I'm using through the game I'm making you're right like very different tool sets um but uh I've seen uh I've seen Maya use an architecture I've seen like Rhino Maya 3D Max but uh yeah I'm uh I'm a 2d gay okay okay oh you're this straight up sketch guy oh my God even more impressive so you're just hand drafting these These Blueprints they started sketches and then I turned them into tiny little uh pixels uh I push pixels all day okay so when you started to kind of ReDiscover yourself right explain to the good people and the one exactly this hobby festered like into man good question um it actually started in um studio uh studio is kind of your architecture in school that's like your main class like

you care a lot about Studio you live in studio actually you have no social life as an architecture student um and it was late I think it was like maybe my last year or second to last year but it was super late at night like three in the morning and I was trying to rush to a deadline and I was like burnt out and I was like I need to take a break and I start reading some articles on Destructoid and uh I stumbled upon an article about a demo to this little pixely Metroid Mania game called iconoclass and uh it was like the these alpha build of this game I've never heard of and it would look gorgeous and I played it I'm like oh my God it's awesome and I like read the article further um it's made by one guy I'm like get the get out of here uh so I it must have been my like sleep deprived brain I was like you should email this person and they and just talk to them and I would never do that it's just it's not my thing but uh so I email him and he responds and he gives me all this information about programs and how you

get into it how you learn and so I just kind of started picking at it and uh this little Hobby I I kind of like got consumed and I'd be at work and I would just like be on forums and I started in game maker so I would just kind of read form after form after Forum about coding about game maker about learning pixel art and I just kind of like um submerged myself in a the industry even though I wasn't in it I was I also fell in love with I don't know if you remember that documentary it was like indie game the documentary that was following us yeah Meat Boy and the original indie game yeah and that I've watched I would watch that just like on repeat uh as I was working on Lucid in my bedroom like late three hours but yeah it was like romanticizing like making my game I never ever thought at the time I would be here it was always just kind of like making a little project in the corner of my apartment in New York City but yes it does have started I mean it

definitely um it's it's resonating I think a lot of what's funny is you kind of shortcut even though you went there you had a whole different professional life all right you you bypass you know another loan you know another set of schooling um which you know I I as many would say they don't regret but you know it does cost a lot dude I mean those are expensive friends essentially that you're making uh yeah yeah architecture was a very expensive uh piece of paper for sure yeah for sure but like you know the the I think because your maturity at the time of me being your drunken burnout State basically you know asking someone and they give you like the outline of like this is what you need to do is like actually uh what's missing too a lot of I think young kids out of high school right they

don't have that Mentor or nowhere to go I I I would hope with online resources now it's easier than ever to to reach out to people but I I think back then if I were to have that mentality it would have been still difficult right uh to kind of do that cold call thing um yeah I don't think I would have been yeah it would have been hard to avoid College basically I know some friends that have like a lot of these guys who came into the industry self discipline such as yourself Superstars you know they just have that mentality uh completely debt free super jealous uh but like it's it's it is a it is a gift once you um once you discover something like an easier route for sure I agree there's a lot of from what I've read and like uh I I would other people I've talked to who I admire and look up to and want to emulate it's very uh

the through line seems to be like a very go proactive make the first move and like don't don't be shy and I've tried to um push that idea forward um a lot of uh the friends in the Lucid Discord or they ask you know questions how do you do XYZ this thing like never be afraid to ask oh I'm always here but also if you have other games you want to be a part of or like or just just email them like not uh I don't know six seven times out of ten they respond like they they want to talk and they want to help and make the industry bigger and better yeah yeah there's so many resources uh like you mentioned Discord online communities yeah uh to Concepts like I've learned more through YouTube than I think I did at University yeah I mean pretty much everyone's so giving uh for knowledge and information and the access

is there for for for anyone really I would love to kind of discuss and and dive a little deeper into the transitional all right I'm guessing you still had your full-time thing your going through a crafting uh kind of uh Discovery right um to just get better at techniques I'm thinking I would love to kind of hear more of that Arc of all right you know I'm diving in how long did was that exactly before feels like a long time it feels like it was 10 years it because the it started around 2013 is when I sent that email and just started tinkering and it was just such tinkering I was just like blind and and dumb and just poking things and doing things wrong um and that happened for a while um it stood I didn't start to like kind of feel like a good grasp until maybe like 2015-16 um and so I'm doing architecture I'm uh

applying everything I learned in school and learning how to do in the real world but I I can't say I regret architecture school or going that route because it gave me so many um like principles and design tenants that I applied into game design and uh like for a quick example is just like a floor plan you have to like lay it out and space your progression in a very deliberate way trying to coerce or influence people to move through the space the way you intend and all you have to do is flip that uh on its axis and then you have a side scroller and you just kind of do the same principles and uh on a platformer and a trans those ideas transfer really well um so I did that for a while but then around 2017-18 uh I noticed it was becoming like it was all encompassing it was starting to affect my uh relationships and work and uh I never thought I would

actually pursue it so I had to like pump the brakes went on Hiatus for a long time and that's when the crippling depression from the industry really started to sink in uh it was really bad it was like uh uh just like you didn't you know there's like no end in sight you don't know what you're gonna do and uh or just laying on the floor one night and I was staring up I'm like I don't know what to do and my fiance was like you should pick Lucid back up it made you so happy I'm like are you sure because like I did it all the time and she's like you need to do something you like like just go do it again so I picked it back up I wanted to learn Unity anyways so I rebuilt it from the ground up in uh Unity um and then I started making pixel art and this whole time I was doing pixel art just like on the side uh for fun like not game related at all um so my pixel art skills kind of kept leveling up as well and there was a few pixel art posts on Instagram that really just kind of took

off and it got some eyes on the project and uh yeah that's when it really started to pick up some steam and that's when it was like I think I think this might actually have some legs and then uh yeah and then she said uh yeah go for it but how was um you know covet happened I don't know if you knew oh yeah what was that what was that what was that like did that accelerate this process because now you have more of a okay yeah it definitely did yeah yeah and I don't think I totally did um it was one of those work from homes where work from home was like the greatest thing for me I just like uh the architectural that that is not a thing right remote working is not a thing at all it is important it is definitely not a thing they like they want to in the office they tried pulling us into the office so hard and I was just I just like no I'm not not doing it I can't make um uh yeah they but um so I was able to get

my work done as quickly as possible and what's great is once it's done there's no it's like it's done and you submit it at the end of the day and then in the between I'm like oh I have all this time to work on is it uh so yeah I got a lot of work done uh with uh on my off hours yeah yeah I I think that was the um that was the most well I think that was a plus from that period because it was crippling uh I think for a lot of people forced uh to not go anywhere but for those who use it as an opportunity I saw a lot of people thriving um my fiance is one of them it's a it's definitely a personality type some people we can say it Thrive um being around people seeing people and having that routine and uh I was uh uh yeah

using the word fortunate is really weird but uh I was not that and I thrive being home alone and just working so uh it benefited the work situation was benefited to me but uh yeah yeah it's hard talking it uh giving it like a positive spin when covet was so terrible but uh I don't know like a silver lining was um I got to stay home and be with my fiance and my dogs and work uh and oddly enough a lot of um friend like relationships with friends strengthen um like you got a new appreciation for like your your your crew and uh you have like text threads that were just dead for a while re-emerged and knew um you know like rekindling high school friendships and stuff but uh yeah I don't want to sit here and praise covet too much but uh it's a

sentiment I think has been echoed a lot ever since I think everyone had uh an existential um kind of uh uh what do you call it um consideration at least at the very least right like everyone was just like should I do I want to work eight hours a day away from it do I wanna commute two hours you know everyone we're changing careers or or not quitting jobs in a large part switching Industries like yourself um did you know anybody because I had a handful of friends who did that they even architecture for sure they like jumped the ship and now they're doing like streaming illustrations game devs um I don't know jewelry making do you have any uh friends that did I I talk at length um I think the the one who are serious or are doing really well after the

switch the ones who were kind of like gun ho and didn't really think it through or are kind of regretting it it's like oh maybe I should go back because now they're going back in the office and they're meeting these people where they didn't care about earlier uh so I'm seeing regrets but there was a lot of people then because we were getting like government checks and people's like you know and people were not in the issues like this man I can pay more this than my regular I still a lot of bartender friends like you know uh Hospital hospitality industries you know yeah yeah it was pretty much everything that you can read on the stats it was I was hearing it uh directly or second connections or whatever um but overall I think it was good because for those it was a great time for everyone to experiment right to at least get the the Curiosity out and have no regrets uh yeah even if they failed or succeed right it's it's yeah it was

very um I might be I might be totally butchering this but I think it's a European thing but um it or it's pretty American that we get we have to like kind of decide what we want to do so early and then you kind of have to just run with it and I I believe uh in more European cultures they have a little bit more breathing room to figure out what they want to do they're not like locked in step right out of college yeah yeah it's definitely something we can borrow from there but we do have all the best companies so there is a there is a outline I I I I you know I have friends here I was like all in Italy you work two hours a day I was like all right what was the less tech company that came out of Italy yeah honestly nothing's coming out of there all right even our pizza is rivaling them oil living in New York with you anywhere else you're like you call this p s exactly exactly so I was

like I get it and I think you know to each their own and whatever your focus is but there is you know to get things done you gotta work uh oh big time it just really depends the the passion behind it has to be there and I I'm totally a believer in that it's like something's missing you gotta think about what else right 100 I I've worked I work so much harder and longer now that I'm working on something I give a about exactly I mean the hours are ridiculous if you would if you told anyone like if you had like an employer and you had to work these hours like that is harassment you need to leave that's not good but when you're doing it for yourself it's like uh really rewarding fulfilling and like it's hard to go to sleep because you don't want to stop yeah it's it's something that um you know I I didn't switch industry I stuck to it right um went to college for game art design

went into industry as game art design but because of the other factors it was wearing me down and I went through a similar crisis I think it's like when you hit your 30s or something like what am I doing my life it's like a quarter life crisis right and uh it's and it was more of a return of a reminder of uh my my youthful self you know it's like hey man you went into this because you like and you you forget your way a bit Yeah I think uh because of bills and responsibilities and you know hanging out with a girlfriend or whatever all right uh north star kind of gets muddy exactly exactly so like I would love to think that most people are able to correct their path and maybe covid on a global scale did that but a lot of people just carried on like I was meeting people in late 40s 50s just burnt out and they

just clocking and clocking out and games and making games right so it was like yeah so it was they they just got numb I think um and it was just easier to stay numb than to you know try hard and be disappointed again because of other factors besides work right it's just people hungry people you know yeah yeah toxic people or whatever that was something I'm so bad at I'm so bad at doing the uh office politics stuff I can't do it either dude so like just I was always told you have an eye for this you just kind of like Kiss Ass like I don't do that I just can't do it you know I won't do it you know like well then you're not gonna get promoted I'm like what does that say about the industry that's it that's I mean and of course that's your manager or yeah it's always the uh so it makes it harder but yeah same same thing man I think creative industry especially have very

similar issues um that the people who can make the difference want to create and the people who likes power get promoted usually 100 yeah um the Miss is she works for a uh I don't know if I'm allowed she works for a super prestigious visual effects company like um the creme de La Creme and uh like over just hearing um her meetings and like the ego is like dead like everything before that all like the lower tiered companies they like want to have this bravado and there's all this like political nitpicking and like sides but like when you're at the top top like you don't have to have that ego and like they just respect everybody like it is it is something to see like I didn't think a company could operate this way and it's super impressive and like they're supportive and um it was like um uplifting to know that like there are companies out there that like put the work first and uh like put

the egos aside that's good yeah they probably went through a bunch of Destruction states to get to that point yeah oh yeah how did they get there I'd like to think yeah but uh getting back to you man so you know you went through this period of it accelerated finally pulled pulled the trigger right and during that time of development were you building up like a community for reassurance what was your kind of like uh uh support to kind of go forth with you know making it more of a commitment what was this the factor yeah yeah that's a great question um I didn't I was definitely building a community and I think it was kind of happening without me knowing it and then when I started to realize what was happening I I had to give it a home um I I think it started on Instagram I

was um Super Active on Instagram and I was befriending a lot of these super talented people and really fun and um it really started to Blossom when like like it was starting to pick up steam and uh I needed to I was like I think it's time to make a Discord I think I have enough interaction to Warrant a place for everyone to hang out and when I did uh everyone came by and it's one of the most if without that Discord I'd go crazy but uh everyone's super um supportive and they help each other with their art they've done projects together they've been super interested in Lucid a uh incredibly supportive and uplifting and even on a they're like they sometimes operate like white blood cells to a wound well or say like I'll make a post and there's always going to be there's always somebody out there that'll be like this pixels off and it's garbage and it sucks and you suck too and you

shouldn't just quit and you're like cool man thanks I poured myself yeah and by the way yeah and your mom's ugly too thank you um but yeah when that happens um I'm fortunate enough to have a community that'll come in and just kind of like bring positivity and it's infectious and if once people start seeing positivity it's so interesting to watch if the few first comments are positive the following comments are positive if it starts off negative it just starts trickling with more toxic um so yeah on a Opera operational side uh the community has been awesome in that sense but um yeah I don't think I kind of created it like intentionally it sort of just kind of organically grew but um I'm very grateful for them yeah I think uh I think that's one of the hardest things like working in isolation especially being a one-man Army right

um having some type of community to push you along especially through the tough times yeah [Music] I would love to hear more about that I mean like as a creative you know hit roadblocks you're like is this worth it what am I doing the right things should I keep pushing what was the most uh uh consistent thing that you would fall back on to kind of continue to to go forward and finish the goals um I would say if ever I'm feeling kind of tired or um something's not working and I'm getting frustrated um I'll usually either just type in to the general chat of the Discord being like hey guys what do you like just what are you guys working on um how's everyone's week going and then getting out of my head hearing what they're going through

um taking a break and helping them with their project if they have design questions and just kind of Switching gears and giving back to a community that's given so much to me that really recharges my drive um aside from that um I actually what really helps is I put on Studio Ghibli movies I watch ah there you go dude just something about something about those movies where I just like every frame and there's just so much passion and I I try to I want to channel that love for their art form um and it just gives me such motivation I watch Princess Mononoke and repeat I want spirit away I'll watch uh even torturo just almost any Ghibli movie makes me happy and ready to work yeah that's what I do a lot I recently went to like a quartet that were playing all their music the music itself I went to the quartet I live in Orange County they

had like quartet but at the same time the composer was playing in Hollywood Bowl at that scene I didn't know I would have went but it was nice and intimate it was like candlelit quartet and it was kind of oh that's awesome but the music yeah I get the same feeling just by listening to the music it just has like a very jolly like youthful Spirit yes I've been um throwing around the term um like optimistic Melancholy yeah um yeah it's a an atmosphere that I've been trying to like inject into every nook and cranny of lucid but I think that Ghibli um they do it in Spades like it effortlessly it's just so beautiful like almost all their movies have this like dichotomy of like beautiful nature and then war and then like there's an IM it's like there's a gray middle ground of uh like the cycle very cyclical very um but they encapsulate this sadness but also this optimistic like hopefulness and it's a very inspiring

yeah it's um definitely art feeds into art for sure um and yeah I do the same exact thing either through the music or having some kind of you know animation going um what other music do you listen to that gets you outside of Ghibli man so this is probably I train myself I list it's like it's like it's bad to say Kanye nowadays the original Kanye College Dropout this you know the his first two album was what I had on repeat nice in college you know just trying to finish the demo rail so it like kind of triggers like a thing in me to like get back to that state of like yeah yeah let's get into it um usually if I want to get things done I do that um or or just uh uh Ania moracone uh the you know the good the bad the ugly composer yeah yeah or uh was it gold what's this uh Ecstasy of Gold you know

that that that kind of soundtrack just orchestra music usually gets me going uh yeah it sounds like you're into um orchestral music is that something you listen to a lot that and Kanye he just needs to do an orchestral uh album now and you'll be like yeah yeah but something about orchestral music just um just makes me want to work it's the it's the same feeling you get when you go into Barnes Noble right when you just they have the music going he's like I gotta read more books yeah I love reading books books are fantastic and then you leave and they're like I could never read a book ever again why would I ever read it when I could just listen to it I can't believe it yeah but every time I go through I was like oh my God I'm so glad it's still around and yeah man like the coffee smell and that paper they have that yeah and speaking of architecture they they have they really nailed down that oh feeling yes that is

um we did a case study on that with like we studied the um the layout of like what they did in a Barnes and Noble it was everything was very intentional and it's it was impressive like before architecture school and all my friends I would go in and be like oh dude they did this and this and they're like Eric shut up we do not care I'm like yeah but look it was they put this calm here because of this like shut up I want my coffee and just shut up yeah yeah okay okay but yeah Barnes a great design uh a feat to like get you in a Zone yeah it makes you want to learn stuff um but yeah there's something about that for sure that kind of gets me going and I relate it to the music and the type of stuff um uh you know Ghibli like films like that like I've seen a million times I could play in the background but if it's like John Wick I'm like I get distracted I'm like this is not good I'm just watching the movie five times

yeah yeah that's like all the action yeah I can't do action movies anymore I get distracted too quickly John uh Keanu I throw on The Matrix thinking I'm like I've seen this a hundred times yeah I'm just listened to it and then of course it gets to agent Smith and I'm just like do this do the finger thing do the thing yeah yeah yeah yeah it's it's funny yeah it's certain tricks uh definitely works I think for all creators but yeah some stuff are yeah distracting for sure yeah but uh you know with Lucid was what was the for those who don't know right for those just kind of walk through what was the motivation the idea you know these these feelings that we're kind of trying to conjure up like what was what was the inspiration for this or the type of games that you've been playing that you're like hey I've always wanted to make this yeah so definitely it lucid I had mentioned that um at some point I kind of did a rebuild so

before the rebuild it was a way more standard or typical run-of-the-mill metroidvania Affair I was I love Super Metroid um so super metroid's DNA is heavy into it um I also love Mega Man X um so that's in there too you'll see if anybody sees any of the footage that's probably playing um hope I hope you can see the uh the Love Letter to those two um but then what really kind of set it apart and I found the the quote-unquote the fun um is that I after the Hiatus and I went back and built it in rebuilt it in unity I had played um Celeste and I had played Mario Odyssey and um even the Spider-Man 4 or Spider-Man on PS4 and I learned some new things and one of those tenants was uh Mobility has to be as engaging as quote unquote like the

uh gameplay or what I like combat and uh because what you're doing from instance to instance of combat is moving and if why are you wasting time having that movement not be fun um because in Mario Odyssey just moving around feels great Spider-Man moving around feels great and then uh so movement was a huge big big thing and then Celeste was I don't know if you've played Celeste but there's this portion where you jump and if you hit these little nodes your resources refresh like your jump resources and I was like oh and also in the messenger that does it too but that was so fun to me and I started incorporating that into the new design of lucid and uh I was making this course in my Unity scene and I was playing I replayed this course like for an hour and a half just trying to do it faster and faster and faster and faster I was having so much fun and all of a sudden it was like light bulb like oh my God this is the game and I just ran with that and uh

it's been work every idea kind of just kept slipping in so well so yeah Super Metroid Mega Man X Celeste and then uh the world of um like color colorful roster of characters like is like the Zelda influence I love Zelda I love the world they build um and then I'm uh I'm a 90s baby or I guess 80s 88 um but I grew up on that I don't know if I don't know if the audience or you know what I'm talking about that there's a 90s anime kind of feel like if you watch Toonami there's just this Vibe around that 90s anime and uh it kind of links to the uh Ghibli thing we were talking about earlier but there's this vibe that I I love and I wanted to inject that into this game so uh between that gameplay and that Vibe the music um if those are all those things that are kind of circling and you're swishing around you get Lucid nice like the a lot of the

difficulties for even professionals and Indie is the getting started part right to get momentum going to continue with it uh were there like you know special programs to kind of help you brainstorm put ideas was it just sketch pad like what exactly kind of helped you kind of put all these ideas together to kind of filter through and and actually get something meaningful to kind of jump off of kind of old school man uh pen and paper pen and paper yeah I had um a whole notebook of stuff dude where is it oh it's right here um this notebook is oh no it's not this one but I had a little mole skin and um I would on my breaks and my lunch breaks in architecture I'd go to a Starbucks or Barnes Noble actually and um I would just write down my ideas do my sketches

um and I think that kind of comes from the architectural background I was very pen and paper like in sketches so it's very easy to it was already a habit um but then for programs um I started out early in with a free pixel art program called piscal um it was a web a web pixel art on a website and uh I started there eventually I got into a Sprite and I can't uh this is a paid this is paid it's not paid advertisement for a Sprite but I I feel like I should be I love their program and I'm constantly telling everyone if you want to do pixel art pick up a Sprite it is fantastic for um uh stationary pixel art or animation both it does both and uh I live in that program um so yeah sketches and then I go into there and uh transfer the sketches to the pixel art and uh then the pixel art goes into unity and uh we have a game but uh yeah it's not

nothing too fancy uh I wish I had a a an answer a program that kind of answers that question better but you know it's just some pixel art program and a SketchBook like I know initially you kind of went in if I want to do this it's uh it can't be done with one person in any part of this journey did you ever consider partnering up you know seeing people Discord Community people interested I'm sure people reached out I can help out yes what was this yes I I thank you everyone who reached out thank you thank you but I've gotten hundreds of emails of like hey I don't know if you've gotten a sound designer or a musician I'm like I have I mean a part of me is like if you had if you really looked at the projects you would have known because I placed it all over that I'm working with my fiance she's doing the music and working with a good friend Andy but get tons of uh tons of musicians reaching out but um yes

working with someone um I really it was really important to me for the longest time to be a solo Dev and uh I've been solo Dev for a long long time um I I just kind of romanticized it was just kind of like all me it's just me in this program and this is it's me but then like you said uh at some point you real I realized that it was just what I wanted to make if I did it all by myself it would take exponentially longer on top of which I would have to learn more things it would take more time and uh I slowly began um Outsourcing a little bit of here a little bit there and I have a bunch of I kind of have I've been forming a team and they're uh right now they're kind of like outside contractors but hopefully if this Kickstarter does well enough a it could be more of a full-time or just get more work because I really

enjoy working with this team they're so talented I have a uh two musicians that have been doing phenomenal work I have a coder friend who is a wizard he can make anything that it blows my mind um who else we have uh oh and some oh um oh my God oh my gosh a promo artist um uh psycho Ramen he makes breeze life into my characters um uh I mean I really enjoyed working with people so uh I'm trying to make this Kickstarter as successful as possible so we can work together and make Lucid as big and as powerful as it possibly can be all right well let's talk about this Kickstarter so you know I think for a few years maybe 20 I think it got really big in 2015 2016. the idea of um straight to the customer funding right and then uh

been a bunch of scam artists took notice dude and it kind of ruined that a bit and there were others that I think were trying I think at some point there was like guys from obsidian teaming up to kind of make their own and it's more like an investor uh version of it but I don't think it did anything from time to time and then Kickstarter came back even stronger with a lot of board games analog games card games a lot of games that you go to Target started that started in Kickstarter are on their shelves which was amazing um and then you know now you're starting to hear more like serious indie games are still having success on Kickstarter so you know I'm sure like you guys were as you guys were planning this like what were the Avenues that you were thinking and where is kickstarting now with all this just as kind of like a casual Observer oh yeah yeah it's um it's a

really it's it's an ecosystem for sure and it's really an interesting one um because like anything you you think you see it and you're like oh that's that's that and you get in there and there's like a billion rules and regulations to like if you follow these you'll do better and here's some tips and tricks um so Kickstarter like you had said I I didn't know there was like scam artists I didn't know that was a thing and people were asking like so how do we know you're not gonna like Take the Money and Run and I was like that's an option but they just have like it just look please look at the work um the the amount of love that's into it like there's just no way it's just not gonna happen on top of which I've partnered with a publisher and I'm like contractually obligated make something so uh on paper I have to make something and also this is my life I would never

ever do that also I'm not a scumbag but um yeah it's uh Kickstarter is an interesting one it's uh we're trying I'm trying to make it so that it's very incentive people are incentive incentivized to um back the kickstarter for like exclusive stuff so um a big part of Kickstarter is like what what makes it special like why do it now and usually it's bought with like a quote unquote like a discounted price or a bunch of like Kickstarter exclusive in-game items be it skins or um uh talismans that are like items and games that all alter your player character um uh wallpapers physical media albums um well I can say for uh lucid's Kickstarter there's a bunch of digital rewards little goodies that people will get be it and it's going to be a big Illustrated digital map of the world and it's made by this super talented artist

um I hope I'm saying your name right buddy uh Hugo pierra I think that's how you say his last name but he's super talented yeah we haven't announced it yet but I think by this by the time this airs we will have if not whatever is a surprise uh but yeah super awesome digitally designed map um also there's gonna be a prequel com make done by Ray um oh geez last name I think his last name's Cadbury sorry Ray love you buddy um but he's an awesome illustrator making this beautiful prequel comic there's also going to be a lucid album uh what else is there an art book um oh and then a bunch of wallpapers and that's just the like every backer gets those digital goodies and then on top of that there's a oh no I think I lied I just misspoke a certain tier you get those I forget but yeah there's a bunch of incentives and goodies uh with Kickstarter that make people want to be like uh feel like a part of this project because uh they're gonna have an

intimate relationship with me being with Dev uh they have like a direct line of like hey what if it did this or hey this doesn't I don't like the way this works so it's for people that really want to feel like a part of a passion project at least that's what if from my Optics that's what Kickstarter is to me for real yeah I think I think um the industry itself just naturally we like stuff um I I don't know if anyone ever made this connection but to me like Kickstarter I feel had a lot to do with the streaming really interesting that's my house up I just came up with it yeah as a streamer and they get their donations through twitch you know there's a lot of contribute I want to be a part of this ride you know there's a lot of like support directly from viewers and customers yeah to me that didn't exist until Kickstarter came along you know even patreon you know a lot of what they do yeah is modeled after what Kickstarter

you know created yeah I can see that well I just to mention you know either good or bad right speaking of scams I still think it's you know um Star Citizen you know recently across 600 million dollars of contributions it's hitting it's breaking Guinness World Records of you know the highest donated game ever right she's us so there's a lot of people out there and you're getting these questions oh you're a scammers it's like I want to give but I've been so hurt and abused yeah but like people like stuff they like they like wanting to be a part of something I think more now than ever right um yeah to have a voice be a part of communities um and I think it's grown uh exponentially even Kickstarter with Kickstarter I think they've grown in other Industries but for games it wasn't

as crazy as not making headlines as it used to right but uh the the the community of giving or being a part or donating or backing is got to be a hundred times or a thousand times bigger than it was even at the height of Kickstarter in 2015. I think I think you're absolutely yeah it just gets a stream yeah um so I think it's like a a holistic like ecosystem of like you said like everything kind of feeds into each other so the ideas of Kickstarter in the community then like feeds into like oh what we should be doing community and streaming and then do that with discords and everyone kind of feeds their ideas into each other they should they should have license all that stuff that's them that was all of them um yeah I can't find the contributes to anyone because a lot of before that was just professional Gamers um but no one was really streaming to that extent I mean yet YouTube sort of

but like not to the extent of how big it is now I don't think at all yeah I am I was late to the streaming like biome I uh I lived on YouTube and I didn't I I don't frequent twitch like my I guess my favorite twitch guy would probably be Maximilian dude and um I didn't know he streamed I was I thought he was a YouTube guy and they're like no he streams and then records to YouTube and I was like okay yeah yeah um so yeah twitch is really interesting I've peeked my head in and uh I feel very like Outsider in because I'm old but I'm still I think I'm part of that for sure um I don't get it I'll say it to that extent it's like people just give me money for much I I still like what are bits what are bits of what yeah I know twitch is still King of Everything but like I keep hearing how they're awful to their top creators it's like like every other week it's like

you know Banning this and that I was like what's this going on yeah yeah um very outside I don't know what's going on I've probably I really should get in there and know what is going on but my old man Brands like it's new and different and I'm scared yeah I think I'm I'm past the age of embracing that yeah I've done like some pixel art streaming and some Game Dev streaming and me and my buddy did some like let's play streaming and actually that kind of fostered the Lucid Discord Community it was a really good way to like connect but it was never like a um not trying to like monetize it was more just like what do you guys want to do you want to hang out and play video games yeah yeah they did well just just charge a entry fee you got your Twitch but yeah it's a lot of um just to speak

into Kickstart and stuff um yeah I mean you know obviously I talked to a lot of people that come on here and Kickstart is still the the go-to um if you want to connect directly to to to your uh base 100 um and then what I usually see is that you know eventually maybe that branches so through patreon or something but like um there's a lot of validation still with Kickstarter um I mean the system works right it is a lot more self-promotion than it used to be um and uh it still has a very large community there I mean they have really big page the future you know they they do help it seems right um it's so much bigger than I thought like it um I've heard stories and the board games like you've said and just like seeing what they you had mentioned earlier that it was much smaller before and I I think I

think I I think you're right because in researching and trying to figure out how to structure lucid's Kickstarter I obviously I looked at older and other kickstarters like what did you guys do what works what are some ideas and just looking at the numbers um hyper light Drifter that game I mean I love that game um and it was huge but um seeing like their Kickstarter page it's so minimal um in compared to today's like standard like what you need on a page um like very little Graphics very little anything and it did gangbusters for the time and um now it's I mean I don't want to diminish its achievements but like other games like you said are now hitting like million dollar marks and uh uh it didn't even hit a million it hit like 600 like only 600 000 but uh if it

was today's thing that game would have done like 3 million or something but yeah it was much smaller back then yeah yeah it's exciting for sure I think um fortnite I think ushered a lot of Gamers um and naturally go feed into the ecosystem that has been building since like our industry has have grown so like if you're a gamer Like Comics you like things yeah yeah exactly right it's just welcome welcome to to our Matrix okay do you think that the gaming land like the consumer gaming landscape I don't know if it's an age thing but do you think that triple A earned us so many times that people are like I'm going directly to the stores screw these middle men that are clearly trying to milk and die me for everything I'm worth I want to support a passion projects that usually has an ending better result than whatever AAA is turning out for the most

part yeah I think probably my bias is probably coming out no no I I think your intuition is correct I I AAA is becoming synonymous with day one patches bugs and complete games um also uh uh for that reason I think the General consumer is a lot smarter now like they understand I'm surprised people out of the industry when I talk to them know what unreal is you know they know like these terminologies that unless you're a developer you shouldn't know right and they're talking about the stuff where years ago I was trying to basically justify that I have a real job you know I mean you're like what you you work in the game you make you play games all day it's like no I don't you know what I mean and that's just a difference of I think maybe the last decade right yeah a lot have changed since dude if you told our

parents what I actually have a story there's a story of how I went to architecture um essentially my dad said you don't want to go in a game you don't want to make games if you want a family you're going to want to make money and you're not going to make money making games and he was only looking out for me because this was in like 95 or something and right his to them it was like you don't they don't make money Flash Forward like you said 10 years or whatever and it's like billion dollar industry like surpassing the cinema in the Cinematic industry oh my god dude yeah yeah and just the the path I mean there's still no requirement for schools anymore if you want to get any of these jobs you know it's just the work speaks for itself yeah so you can technically if you're smart spend your high schools learning all this stuff and get into the workforce at 18. yeah and then you know the salaries you know when you climb the ladder is this a lot of respect you're equivalent to to like doctors you know uh you know

you go all the way to Facebook to Google to all these tech companies they're paying Bonkers uh for the same skill set you know it is a growing and it's not just games you learn these tools you can use it in film and other Industries now so it's it's insane the amount of people have grown so much that I am constantly surprised the knowledge uh base it's really reassuring that um we are building the Matrix is this is essentially yeah man Matrix is a video game right that's been my theory so it's gonna be ruled by a bunch of game developers scary right um I think you're right yeah I mean game design is like the epitome of every art form like every single art form can be like inter injected into making a game or some game can have it all in there it's a it's pretty wild

so yeah I welcome our AI over or not AI Game Dev overlords the same thing dude it's just saying like you think it's a coincidence that's all happening at once yeah but uh uh dude so uh you know we're hitting hour mark oh you know so um I want to kind of shut up and over the mic it's been like a great conversation I want you to kind of throw the Twitter handles or x x handles oh yeah Instagram the uh Discord Channel where can people find your Kickstarter campaign how absolutely well first of all thanks for having me this was like super last minute but um so glad we got to talk it's been really fun uh talking to you also I never mentioned um are you wearing a like a Ken a ghee you don't wear this at home

I mean I I put on the knives I put pants on today it fits the look uh but this is me fighting the industry uh there's a history with the podcast you know you're talking about burnout and stuff this this was built on burnout but yes so yeah thanks thanks for having me um my socials like I haven't spoken enough today um uh biggest one if you could please everybody please go to lucidkickstarter.com and uh hit the little notify me on launch button please it would be so so awesome I have poured my heart and soul into this game um every penny I have it feels like I'm all in and uh I want to make this as best as I can and have the best people to do it and with your help we can make it happen so yeah please go to lucidkickstarter.com and uh follow up

um I hope you'll enjoy it so that's the big one um and then on Twitter I think I don't even know what my Twitter handle is I think it's like the matte black let's see um oh my ex sorry uh yeah uh underscore the matte black like m-a-t-t-e um material uh you can find me there and on Instagram I'm uh the mat uh just matte black studio um I post a lot of updates a lot of art a lot of gameplay mechanics lore every post gets a little bit lower and I've been we actually didn't touch much on it but Dark Souls was a huge influence on me I love from soft and it's mostly not so much the difficulty portion but the World building um I love telling story through uh environment and items and uh so if you like lore check out the Instagram and try to piece together the little tidbits I've been trickling out

um but yeah I also have a Facebook there's a Discord on all the socials you'll you can find the Discord um there's invite links but yeah we welcome you into the Discord everyone's super friendly we have artists we have animators illustrators musicians uh programmers like everybody there and everyone shares their projects and help each other out um I have a good friend Average Joe he's making a game called edge of allegory and I had like two days I was completely burned out and he sent me a demo and I spent the following two days like helping him make a combat system and it was so freaking fun but yeah everyone's very uh involved with each other's work and supportive so come hang out and uh talk nerd stuff with us so yeah yeah that's my Spiel that's all I got oh man I mean I mean congratulations in finding happiness again oh and it looks great dude and you know we'll we'll do as much as we can on this side to to kind of make sure that all the links

that you describe is in the post so you guys can find it there uh give the support um and everything and it was really nice talking to you say man uh I hope I can see you again sometimes it was super fun well yeah we're friends for life man don't worry about it cool all right guys see you next week hello everybody Brandon here I want to talk to you today about something very special you've been on this wild ride together haven't we from my early days as a senior employee feeling a bit lost all the way to Leading multiple Studios transitioning to smaller Indie teens into the mobile industry and now running my own game studio for the last six years throughout this time you've been here listening and learning along with me sharing this never-ending journey of Discovery this year I'm kind of on this quest of meeting serial Studio Founders discussing Acquisitions or exploring what it takes to grow Studio to over 100 Developers I've always tried to find an exciting

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