Escape From Hadrian's Wall with Jim Gray | 356

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev onchain the number one game development podcast about game development and the life s thereof I am your host Brandon fam and with me a good old friend Jim Gray how you doing Jim uh doing excellent thanks how are you doing yeah you you already said doing fantastic I'm doing fantastic I'm doing better now uh this is the part of the podcast where I let our guest which is yourself to introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers out there of who you are where you been where you hidden all that good stuff real quick before we get into the meat of things uh sure um I think uh my rough introduction is um that it was around the year 2000 when I um decided that I was going to get into the games industry and uh you know my my

first kind of uh Big Gig in uh um in the games industry was in 2004 um when I joined a you know a studio that uh kind of aaish um and then uh yeah as as you know because you and I work together at Sledgehammer on uh on a Call of Duty title or two um basically uh that was maybe the the biggest game I've ever worked on probably the biggest game but yeah I've jumped around and worked on a whole bunch of game studios um and uh about a year ago I decided to start my own game studio and so uh that's where I am now and hopefully uh this is you know this is the last Studio I'll ever work for is my own hey that's a good start man for sure so um you know the biggest space that uh we'll get into the game but I would love to kind of go from the beginning I I remember at Sledgehammer

there was a lot of experimentation going on um within the developers in the studio but with you particularly were really uh uh gravitated to the VR stuff uh quicker than everybody else uh and I think there was a few technical demos you were you know toying with uh showcasing you know what we what that would look like with Cod right uh and then I remember also it made total sense you the well ilm has like different teams but were you were part of the xlb right exactly yeah so tell talk about that transition like um your first interest in the VR why uh you saw that as an exciting space uh and and making the transition from console games to VR headsets uh sure um so I learned about the the uh so-called Oculus dk1 which

was um the Oculus before they were part of Facebook you know it was just startup by some guy down in La I forgot his name but anyway he uh Kickstarter yeah yes Palmer lucky he uh he kickstarted it um that was I don't know maybe 2014 I think Super ear probably yeah it was around then um and he had the thing called the dk1 which is a development kit I guess and uh so I got that and there was two of us at the um at uh um at Sledgehammer who I'm I'm drawing a blank on his name I haven't talked to that guy in a while um but two of us had had DK 1s and we um and we were like this would be and actually I should say I was uh I I think first of all I I'm I'm kind of a

a a John carac Fanboy John carac did uh you know quake and doom he was the uh the founder of ID Studios uh id id games or whatever um and he actually said I think he saw that was probably what convinced me I need to get this dk1 because John carac saw it and and actually tested it out and was like this thing is awesome and uh back then it was as soon as I got it and tried it out I'm like hell yeah this is going to be something cuz um it for me it was already convincing that this can be really something hyper immersive that's the thing that draws me to it is you're actually in that world and uh the dk1 um I think was was convincing enough it and actually the headsets now are way way way way better um but that one already um I think they had solved a couple ISS which were um one was

basically the latency and you know the frame frame rate and latency um any earlier attempts I think just didn't have uh you know when you like turned your head or something you know it it would take it minute to catch up and I think the the dk1 was the one where you could feel okay I actually feel it didn't have positional tracking by the way I'm getting a little bit into the weeds but like if you moved your head like this and stuff yeah yeah uh uh it didn't have any tracking of that but if you just simply turned your head and stuff it was like holy I'm I'm in this world yeah and so um so I I was like this is going to be something and uh so we actually uh me and that other guy wish I could H his name will come to me later um two of us were like okay let's let's actually Port the Cod engine to the to use the um it wasn't like reporting the whole engine or anything

but we we uh updated the the Cod engine to actually work with the dk1 and so we had a demo of uh this is probably you know hyper uh Insider information we actually had a uh a demo of it and showed it to some people around the studio and uh and I just felt like man this is so immersive to kind of get back to your question to me it felt yeah like this is really the future um this is where I want to be in terms of this immers immersion and then I got the opportunity as you said um they were called ilm immersive I'm sorry they were called ilm xlab and they later rebranded as ilm immersive right right but that's the same group um and uh initially they were just all about VR and now they're getting more into AR and some other things as well um recently they kind of made a splash with their um it was like Marvel thing called uh what if um so

shout out to my my pals and friends at uh I immersive um that was a a real AR you know augmented reality type thing um but initially they were all about VR and uh and I was like hell yeah that's what that's where I want to be and so I joined them really early on I was the first uh gameplay engineer to join ilm xlab uh they basically had had nothing accept a bunch of ideas honestly when I joined and uh so I can talk a lot about that but uh let's move on another question from you that's that was that was my uh I was convinced back in yeah 2014 that it was going to be something and it's been a very slow slow growing industry um but anyway yeah the immersive group was that mostly um to support imagineer what kind of projects were you guys doing to to U the the VR

AR stuff that's a great question um so I mostly prototyping they were they were doing prototyping when I joined and as I say it was very kind of primitive what they had because they didn't H even have a gameplay engineer um and so they were just kind of like making environments um but uh their idea and actually I would say fundamentally they are this is my my perspective on it um so first of all I should say their um one of their MoDOT is step inside our stories um that's kind of an ilm xlab uh kind of motto um and so they wanted to generally support you know um Disney um Lucas film you know all those big bigname story you know kind of uh you know movie studio stuff and they wanted to make it so you could step

inside anyway um that's kind of the motto but what it really turned out to be um is essentially um they they always work with some sort of external partner um they tend to work you know someone else and whether that's uh sometimes it so the biggest thing we did the first big thing we did oh actually I take this back um the uh I guess what I would say the first big one that I was involved in personally because they had one pretty much before I joined um but uh which I I won't really talk about much I can but I didn't I don't think that's so relevant the first big one that we did where I was really involved from start to finish was um uh collaboration with the void so they are a uh the void was a what you call a location

based as far as I know they're not in business right now they I think are they're trying to make a comeback but they shut down during covid Co killed it yeah yeah Co killed them but we ended up doing three experiences with them the first one which a lot of people played was um uh secrets of the Empire it was a Star Wars uh VR experience it was kind it was in my mind fantastic and a lot of people loved it and played it but basically you go to that you have to go to the location and you put on the headset and the backpack and it's cool yeah it's awesome did you did you play that I haven't had a chance to but I remember seeing that during um right before Co basically that it was it was definitely a thing that you would go with your buddies or your kids and walk around basically Arena or maze that has VR thematic storyline or whatever on top of that when you put on the headset it's very cool um and I

think given the time uh it it is kind of set to make a comeback for sure I think it's definitely going to come back um like to kind of mention like this thing like there we have like in Orange County I'm sure down in LA and even in the bay these little um like kind of arcades VR arcades popping up that's been really popular like s sand VR maybe sandbox VR we have one called Odyssey VR I always see that place full and there's always like kids being uh renting out for their birthday parties and stuff and and they have like a little setup individually if you want to play VR but it's like it kind of took over well it kind of evolved from like the PC cafes that used to be a thing in the early 2000s or whatever right so they have PCS all set up too yeah also kind of like laser tag it's a little bit like laser tag as

well so yeah yeah I totally exactly that whole location based thing is you know I think it's it'll be around and keep evolving um so we ended up at getting back to your other question about like who who did we do it with and who did we work with we did three uh three um uh three location based things with the with the void and unfortunately I don't think they're available anymore since they're they kind of went bankrupt during uh yeah during Co but then we also did um we did some games with oculus because Oculus was um kept growing and evolving they've put out so many headsets now yeah but they uh we collaborated with them um on U the uh Vader Vader Immortal yeah um is kind of a premium game that you got on initially came out on uh on the first Quest so quest one um

and we worked with other external Partners it was kind of all that's kind of the theme there is like it was always kind of external partner based um and you would think we would do more with Disney and and Lucas film at ilmxlab I mean I kind of was surprised that we didn't do more directly with uh the main company I mean we always had interaction CU that uh that place is a it's kind of a collaboration between Sky sound Skywalker sound and uh ilm and then also the story studio and so the story studio folks were always involved and that was one of the I think one of the super cool things about um secrets of the Empire is it was actually Canon you know and so they they actually had it you know in the timeline of the uh of the whole Star Wars universe so that was kind of fantastic collaborating with the stor um story Department of of Lucas film so what did you uh being there for a

good number of years and playing with a lot of different ideas location based a lot of external development introducing like their approach uh with the VR headset and you guys being able to kind of collaborate like how did your interest in VR grow even more uh in in in that in those stages uh yeah I mean I feel like uh the things that there's been just so many improvements to VR headsets um I mean it's kind of the technical side but um they like something that got perfected uh over those years was the so-called inset out tracking and so I actually still have uh these lighthouses so the first thing that they had was you know the whole positional tracking I metion mentioned earlier was not a thing

in the dk1 and that was a big thing to solve and so um some folks had like these external tracker devices they like infrared lights kind of shining at the um at the headset to track it um but then Inside Out tracking is so much better you know it just makes the setup way way easier um and then uh making the whole headset lighter and uh so position tracking um and also um having it be uh completely Standalone I think that was a fantastic choice of a yeah Meta Meta Oculus um to go with a a standalone so for me now like with the quest the quest one Quest two now the latest was Quest 3s and I think it just they just keep improving the headset so it's just easier to put it on it's more and more

comfortable makes you 100% immersive without any you know crazy setup I think that uh and the positional tracking I can't say enough about the positional tracking because it's just like that was night and day actually I remember on the and actually the Standalone thing is a huge thing too having the huge cord behind your back and some people were putting on the ceiling rack they would yeah exactly they had like an overhead rack that would tether it to their ceiling and stuff so you wouldn't step on your cord so many things people tried um and I would say uh so like there's just a lot of improvements with the headset um and for me it's still there that uh it's just feels more and more immersive and we've gone through a lot um I think there was initially a ton of hype um about it and people I think it got overhyped like now other other things get overhyped you know that just happen is this overhype thing and I

think um the truth is that people um and I guess I'll say one more thing which is um that um I think more and more people are embracing it for what it is yeah um and saying so what for example what it is right now is a um without any additional like add-ons and whatnot because people are still working on certain add-ons but basically what it is is it tracks your hands and tracks your headset right so it's like get something on your head and and and two controllers so your hands are tracked and I think for people who are like trying to figure out well how do we better track your feet and how do we you know that kind of stuff is in my mind is a big uh it's a big distraction yeah and so I think there's been this huge success with Gorilla tag because it's like the movement of your hands is like beautifully tracked and so let's and beatsaber is a great example

it's like what's fun about VR is your your hands are tracked and so you're like waving around your arms like doing the beat saer or you're using that to like move through the world that's uh I think embracing that about VR um is kind of the success moving forward at least where we are today you know maybe in the future there'll be better tracking of more parts of your body but where we are you know for now in the next couple years it's all about the hands and the headset uh so Apple entered the arena meta is continuously uh evolving you know they introduced to Orion AR Tony Stark glasses right uh which is even more refined than than they have with the meta so yeah so Apple went bigger and more expensive super heavy headset uh high quality of course right that you expect Apple it didn't capture the audience as well maybe it being a first

um you know maybe that's one of the reasons why but you know I'm not seeing as much traction as you're kind of used to seeing with Apple products uh meta is it stock is going up since the announc I mean in response to what it's introduced so and yeah with the pair of glasses it does seem approachable they're finally doing live translation which is what everyone's been wanting forever right the the real Babble fish uh but like the other expectant things you know being able to have like a uh interactive monitor that you can just throw on a wall have it basically popup advertisings over like food frood products and stuff but you know being able to play like retro games without uh with just the glasses I mean you can see where smaller form begins to open up to the uh Mass to the masses more so than a heavy

Apple product I would love to kind of hear your opinion of where meta is going and where apple is going and and what what's working for both what's not working so yeah emphasis on this is totally opinion uh yeah um totally on my opinion side uh the Apple product is so expensive I mean that's just for me I think uh you know there's been quite a few headsets there there are some expensive headsets out there but when you're talking a price point over $1,000 doll it's never gotten a lot of traction and I think that's one of the things that um Oculus Has Done Right is uh like when they came out with the first Quest I forget it was around $400 yeah and uh and that was really uh I think a breakthrough product um and and when I saw the Quest 2 in Costco I knew it was

they were breaking into the into the mass Market um so I feel like price is just a such a huge thing it's it feels like if you're going to pay and I think Apple's is around $3,400 or something 3 thou over 3,000 it's in my mind U that price point is just such a huge um barrier for many many most people right it's just like who's going to drop $3,400 on the thing well um that's not to that's that's even saying U it's worth mentioning that I feel it's still like 90% of regular people have not even tried a headset after all these years right I have a yes that is true and actually I have a a related theory about that I think that there was um there was a bunch of headsets that actually did a lot of disservice yeah to the community as I say the um I think as a game developer and you know this used to seeing crappy stuff and try to see

through the the crap and and be like okay is there a kernel of a kernel of fun here um a kernel of something good here and so that was the case with the dk1 um whereas like that kernel of wow it's actually tracking me as I just turned my head yeah that was already like damn I can see the where this is going um and there was a bunch of things like I think Google cardboard and uh it was a lot of knockoffs yeah yeah and I think a bunch of people did try those and they were just like um a lot of I think it did disservice to the confuses the market yeah to the marketplace yeah because people were like I tried it it wasn't really good and uh so yes there are there probably a as you say there's probably many millions of people who haven't tried it at all but then there's also a big group of people like early adopter people who tried an early version and said n it's there um but I think if we can get some

of those early adopters to retry the in my mind the the quest three um I think they'll be like convinced oh yeah it has come a long way and it is really quite awesome now um so there's that um but you're right there's a lot of people that are turned off by the fact that it's just this big clunky thing that they stick on their head and it's kind of associated with being quite nerdy which doesn't bother me but uh I think there's a lot people out there who don't want to don't want to be too dorky um uh so yeah you had a broader question though about Apple and meta and their direction for me um I think what apple and uh meta as you say putting up a big virtual screen in your living room and uh you know and having having ads pop up and having um you know a lot of things

that I I would say for me personally and again this is personal opinion and stuff I'm not interested honestly I I sort of feel like um I want to be trans you know transported into a new a new place right like take me to um uh you know take me to another planet or you know if it's sci-fi take me out in the outer space if it's a medieval fantasy take me back to you know the Medieval Times is like completely transform transport me to a new place and so I'm not really into the AR and having new things pop up in my living room yeah that's good I mean to me that's more like a productivity apps it's it's not actually something I'm not opposed to it let me be straight uh I'm not opposed to having more productivity apps in my life um and you know I I use Google Docs and stuff like that but it's kind of in that category yeah of like how do I be more productive

and not not how am I entertained how I have fun you yeah and so I I really like I've I think since the year 2000 as I say I decided I want to be in the games industry I want to be kind of the uh in that sort of uh let's just say AAA premium entertainment right and so yeah part of the next Frontier of games for sure um yeah and for the entertainment I want to be be fully immersed and then yeah and also no ads ideally I would say like it kind of um uh deflated me a bit when John carac wasn't involved with meta anymore I was like oh no it's like that's our God gamer game developer right and if and as soon as he left it went in the direction of the productivity apps right the game kind of took it back seat which I get to a certain extent so comparing to The Meta and apple they're trying to break into

the mass Market the bulky headset definitely does not work the glasses I can see it lying around of friends and them putting it on and starting to see like text messaging popping up and stuff and yeah it's it's about introducing them it's like a Gateway product right I try to get them to that world because I think hardcore Gamers see the potential and as long as there's a good game we're willing to like jump in and immerse ourselves so it's interesting to kind of see the two different products and metas definitely trying to like make it as cheap and as approachable as possible Apple's going for that premium thing um the only thing with the premium thing is like I you know maybe because of the lack under delivery of expectations uh I'm not seeing too much apple emphasis on it as much as I thought it you you know I thought they would keep making sure that hey yeah

this is awesome look at the software we have for it this is the next gen of of gaming or productivity they kind of stopped so I'm kind of worried they might phase it out which might be a big disappointment you kind of need like a competitor um because yeah like you said at the beginning there was like a thousand headsets now there's basically just two companies making like real headsets yeah uh there's more um yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah I mean really in my mind the meta is is the biggest and they they've made they've you know they've got the biggest market share for sure and so I think they're the leader um but there's other people that may make a big big splash which uh I'm definitely going to keep my eyes on uh on valve there's rumors I don't know if you heard the rumors about um it's called the uh what's it called the

Deckard which uh their because their steam deck I think has done really well and uh steam deck is like a it's like a kind of aend DS type thing all right yeah a lot of people love it and uh and they're for it yeah yeah what I've heard is that no well they're gonna make a new because they did the valve index yeah they got the index which I I have and uh the best one you think no I don't want to say it's the best today because um I bought it because it was it was the best at the time but it is heavier and clunkier than the the quest 3 yeah um and so and also it doesn't have the uh Inside Out tracking um it's still using the older older tracking technology but the story The the rumor is that the Deckard is going to be a new VR headset based Bas on the U you know incor using the uh the

steam deck uh technology so that's kind of the Technology based and they're going to build a new um essentially a sequel to the valve index so that could that could change things a lot um and then there's other competitors out there like I remember the pimax got some notes on other people who are kind of making uh actually let me look at my notes uh we're kind of definitely just a comment off that um in a weird space with where the game industry has been the last couple years like I'm kind of waiting for valve to come kind of save it a bit because they've been so dormant I mean they released like a little VR yeah not just VR just as a studio you know they barely make games anymore because they don't need to technically they have their new their new game is making huge headline it is and it's two years away it's not even official early release I mean they're they have that ability yeah whenever they want um but but

they're they're not cranking out a lot of stuff they're not they haven't no they're very slow yeah yeah um but I I'm a fanboy of uh valves I I'll I'll admit it I'm a fanboy uh also fan Fanboy of karmac too as you mentioned him yeah leaving Oculus I I sort of feel like the Facebook folks fundamentally they they haven't been a a game centc all yeah they haven't been game Centric so they they may just slide more towards as you say like kind of like social social uh social media and um ad-based you know ad supported products and stuff like that um whereas valve I think could be a you know they could be the ones to make the make the Breakthrough in VR we'll have to see we need something like you know I I take something like the iPhone as a as an INSP ation so somebody

sometime is going to come out with something like the iPhone that's just going to be like everybody has to have it right it's like holy this is just part of life now yeah I I I really do think with these Hardware it's always about the killer app right and I think for VR it's pretty synonymous with games whether meta or apple don't want to acknowledge it I think what's going to make that leap will be like when people see something that people are entertained by it just captivates no no one's getting excited about you know Google Docs you know who's this for like Zoom VR who's like people asking for this like people are trying to get out of VR meetings uh Zoom meetings all the time so um yeah I'm hoping valve I know valve can do it they release um the uh uh what do you call it um the the

halflife VR game alif Alex Alex super awesome uh I was like yes why aren't we doing more of this you know uh but they they definitely have the ability to the the steam deck I think probably excelled um their expectation in terms of Hardware they're not a hardware company but they it's awesome it's great they've dabbled in Hardware quite often once in that that was probably the one that reallyit probably really hit yeah yeah they had like yeah they had a few like that you plugged into your TV right what was the thing that you plugged steam de no before the steam deck um there was a thing that uh it was like a Google Chrome or or Google well it was a steam link thing yeah Ste thing a little Hardware thing yeah to stream your computer to your TV basically yeah yeah they've dabbled in Little Hardware dongles and Hardware thingies like like

the the valve index so I think you're right with steam deck I think they they hit a home run yeah yeah yep so they maybe in the future people will think valve is a hardware company yeah I mean if this hardare uh this VR thing comes out and it somehow talks with your steam deck that would be amazing um but yeah I think the industry need that kind of refocus on games I mean I think that's one of the reason why carac left it's like where I thought we're making games here what you doing I don't want to be in meetings yeah hard to know with him uh yeah I've I've never really talked to him personally uh uh but yeah I feel like he hasn't been involved in a big game for quite a few years I mean I am a fan um but uh but yeah he I can't remember the last big game he worked worked on so he's I don't know what he's doing nowadays maybe it's has to be rage right

yeah it was probably exactly rage been a while more than 10 years ago or something so maybe he's anyway uh I I'm also a fanboy of uh of unreal um as you know uh yeah ever since I switched to um joined ILX lab which was I think it was 2016 when I left sledgehammer and went to ilmxlab um is I've been using the unreal engine since then yeah and those folks they're not no no company's perfect but I do love uh Unreal Engine and uh and the Epic folks all the stuff they're doing you're one of the few Engineers that I've heard that love the engine uh yeah yeah I uh that may be true I think a lot of especially if you're talking to rendering Engineers I mean I think all the folks at sledgehammer I they liked working on the the Cod engine because

they could get their hands dirty in the in the rendering side whereas it's really hard to do that with uh Unreal Engine it's just so packaged and big yeah yeah but as a gameplay engineer I I like that because it's like there's some rules yeah yeah I don't have to worry about the rendering side I just you know focus in on the uh on the game play yeah and so that's I I like it I I think it's going down on a limb I guess to say I think it's um it's a much better engine than the Cod engine you know depending upon what yeah depending on what game you want to make uh if you want to make Cod then obviously the Cod engine you have to do that but um almost any other game was like you know go with this go with Unreal Engine that's my opinion it's lesser headaches at least for developers I think yeah but but even Halo's switching over you know from their engine to oh

the the Halo folks are switching to unre yeah it's a big one it's a smart it's a smart move I've heard a lot of people's I mean it was uh I think it made sense and that's how I started in the industry was by making my own engine you know uh I mentioned that I I like decided I'm getting into the game industry in the year 2000 um and then it wasn't until like 2004 that I really got a a good job in um in Game Dev uh but yeah for those four years I was a lot of it was me making my own engine because that was the thing to do Unreal Engine you had to pay like a million dollars to license it literally y or the or the Quake engine um and so it's not really accessible um for a Indie Studio to even contemplate it so as an indie you just had to make your own engine but anyway that was that was a long time ago um but yeah that's I think those times are kind of us it it's almost crazy to think

about making your own engine nowadays although some places still do it right yeah it's rare it's definitely gotten rare and rarer um but uh this journey right what when did the Inception of you're kind of toying with ideas maybe I should create my own thing like Branch off I'm good settled I'm in the bay like when when did that start happening and uh what were the initial fears uh that you know going into it oh okay yeah that's two angles of the whole question uh so I would say that um the desire is um and and part of the reason I left xlab was because um they weren't doing original Ip um and they weren't really in my mind honestly I feel like the talent that was

there it's like I feel like uh with the with the talent that's there and this is uh you know shout out to all my good good friends at uhm immersive about to bash you um I feel like what's that no yeah shout shout out to them but yeah I no I honestly feel like they could be like a top VR Studio yeah but they the the butt is um they're really kind of partnering with other people and uh and not just saying okay we're going to make the the VR experience that that we want to make yeah um it was always kind of tied to the you know and this as I said they uh their motto is uh one of their mottos is step inside our stories and so they want to embrace you know Star Wars Universe um you know the uh uh Marvel Universe all those things um and

so that's in a lot of ways uh that's that's who they are but I I was very excited to like let's do something brand new completely new yeah and so um that was I think that was a probably the biggest reason why I decided to move on um and uh yeah I was by the way uh um i' I've made a lot of jumps in in my career and uh I think Sledgehammer was the place I stayed the longest which was around four years and then wow um I I was happy that I beat that at ilm xlab um I was there for over five years oh wow I was actually really really happy that I uh I stayed with them uh as long as I did because I I tend to jump fairly often um but yeah I wanted to get more into um original Ip and uh really I mean this is kind of the dream of uh being a an independent Indie guy is really can

just you know make the game that you uh that you really believe in yeah and something something that's you know you know no limits so to speak and I want to even get more No Limits uh but anyway um maybe more on that later uh in my mind uh that was the draw is to kind of be more involved in the creative um and also to some extent I was I shouldn't say to some extent to a large extent I was pigeonholed as a uh as an engineer right which makes sense you know that was my main skill set was engineering um but you know creative meetings and stuff like that I wouldn't even be invited honestly speaking and they would come out of the creative meetings and be like oh you know here's the new direction or whatever which was fine I mean that's what they hired me for and paid me for um but uh I started to feel like I wanted to be more in in uh involved in the creative and uh and

also be working on brand new IP create something from scratch I think that's what I'm what that's that's my passion that's what I've been you know yeah kind of drawn to my whole life um and then you said what the fear um obviously you know there is a constant fear of failure and uh I would say I I'll I'll bring it up to date I guess I I started this um a little more than a year ago this you know Jim Gray Productions um and uh there's certain things that I I'm just well aware that I'm not good at and I'm not uh um or I'd say at the very least I'm unex inexperienced at and that is um understanding the market and and marketing and uh uh yeah those two things probably are the things I'm I'm

most worried about it's like and we're we're about to launch our our our game demo um in just a week um the 16th October 16th 19 2024 in case people are watching this podcast years in the future October 16th 2024 um that's going to be our first four-way out there into the the wild WI world or whatever um but it's like when I picked you know this would be the game that we would do first at gym grade Productions uh I was thinking this is a market this is the things that people love to do and love to play and I I love it and so um I think it would be a good first project um but I I may be completely missing the mark right because I've also been kind of the I shouldn't say kind of I've been the creative um Rudder the you know steering the ship

on what we're doing creatively on this first project um so I'm the creative lead um and so do I understand the market do I know how to Market it those are I think my biggest fears and then and if if we've missed the mark completely it'll mean like we're not making any money and uh you know and having personally invested in this um it's not a huge it's not a huge fear because I I you know I did have um a good retirement and as you say I'm kind of settled um yeah getting a little bit personal I'm I I bought a house in the Bay Area in 2002 yeah and so um that was you don't need the say anymore yeah you're good yeah prices have gone up and stuff so um so yeah the uh I've been very fortunate in terms of

for financially to be able to do this kind of a thing and uh and and make a make an investment so it is a fear that um you know that we won't make enough Revenue to keep going um and so not a huge fear because yeah as I say as you said I'm good I I'm I will it's not like I'm going to go hungry or something like that um but yeah that's those are that's what I worry about I think most at night is like are we hitting the market are we is there actually going to be a a market for this and uh are we going to sell some units so that we can actually keep going well I would say this like you're already beaten 99% of people who start making a game or having an idea most people don't finish just that first game you I mean you say like creating a studio getting that going putting a team

together executing learning the stuff um that you don't know or normally do professionally and just enjoying the process uh there's so much that you've learned probably the last year um and I think every successful small team is just about building off of that um with every game and completing it is like seriously that's awesome man that's incredible uh just just like getting to the point where you guys are ready to like ship it um so much we're shpp to be clear we're shipping the demo yeah um but it's a it's a really serious demo it's about we're estimating it's 30% of the full game and includes essentially all the mechanics uh you know and and uh full quality artwork um but yeah on that point I want to say i' other things I've been really fortunate about and I don't not everybody's going to have this opportunity but um I uh one of the great

things about ISM immersive was I shipped about five games there yeah and as as a lead engineer so I was uh I was able to be lead engineer on full you know full uh the full product cycle of about five different uh five different games we put out um and so I'd seen that whole cycle of you know and luckily those were relatively small you know short experiences you know like the the location based ones were only like 15 20 minutes long yeah so they relatively short um experiences but we saw the full life cycle right and the and to things I've learned a lot of it has been about uh what I mentioned earlier managing the creative process you know uh because that's something I never did professionally before was managing artists and uh and audio folks and you know that whole the creative more creative side yeah directing the whole thing isn't it funny just to kind of

mention before because I I I think every game developer who comes in the industry eventually wants well we come and just eventually want to make our own game right have our own idea and I I climbing that ladder you're like you're like oh if I just get a seat at the table you know I'll be able to kind of finally get closer to why I entered right but every time you get promoted or actually even called Le you just find out there's even a more Inner Circle it's like what are they doing who are those guys right every time you walk by it's like what are they talking about it's like I'm a lead it's like why am I it's so crazy how everyone just kind of finds out the same way it's like oh there are layers to this that I'll I don't think I'll ever penetrate uh that's totally right yeah until you do your own thing and then you see all of it it's like a this is what's about um and uh it's funny right it's funny smaller teams are more effective I still feel uh you kind of get through all the politics of it all and just talk about

the game is it fun or not and uh to like you said go through through the full production cycle of those like five of those ATM probably gave you the confidence like you know what I saw everything you know I'm seeing everything I think I can do this um so the game idea itself was it something you've always been did you look at the limitations of you know what you had the time and you or certain gameplay and you created a theme how how about did you create um well we should probably mention the game oh yeah what's the title of the game the T it's called escape from Hadrian's Wall yeah and uh the kernel of this idea I had um like the first year I was at uh ilmxlab um and uh basically I I actually was talking to a couple of my colleagues at that time um hopefully xlab's not going to come back and sue me that they own this but um it was just kind of the as I say the kernel of the idea

um and basically the kernel of the idea is uh I won't give you the full kernel but I'll give you because because I don't want to no spoilers noil um but the the the kernel of the idea is it's a VR escape room yeah and uh and said in medieval magical uh place right that was the original idea and uh and um partly it was because um at xlab again it was a little bit feeling frustrated there um with you know the things that we were doing I mean I'm very proud and very happy with everything I did there but again it was a little bit was like you know oh needs like the first one we did the first one we finished um was like a Star Wars experience and had Vader and uh a lot of a lot of cool in there um that's

that's one of my uh I don't know the Pinnacles of my career was doing a a Vader AI right you fighting against Darth Vader um so that kind of uh stuff though was still frustrating to me because I was thinking if we just say we we you know take away the uh the the limitations of having to be in the Star Wars universe and uh and just fully Embrace VR um and and make up our own uh IP and stuff and so I I had this idea of you know let's just make it you know as fun as possible you know you're in VR and there's magic and there's like all this kind of one thing that's actually I'll just be clear is not in our demo but originally it was one of the ideas was one of the cool things about VR is like you shrink yourself down or make yourself huge right and so I was like that that would be a cool magical potion to shrink yourself down and and then you can solve

puzzles shrunk down or you make yourself Giant and you can solve puzzles that way and so it it's like that was kind of the idea was to embrace um all these cool things uh and make it a in my mind uh thing this this project has grown in the in the development but initially it was like single room you know uh our room our our escape room is not a single room by any by a long stretch but the um that was kind of the idea is we could make a small experience and it something I could do on my own and that idea I think came to me in 2016 2017 talked with some colleagues and actually I pitched it to a friend uh and he was like that's a great idea yeah and so it kind of sat in the back of my mind um for several years and then uh and then uh as I say about yeah it was a little more than a year ago I was just like man it's time to do it I got to do it um and think all these

improvements with VR Quest 2 as I say becoming more mainstream and there's more of a market there and uh feeling more financial financially stable I was able to make the jump um so yeah I don't know did I answer the question yeah I think I'm always interested to kind of hear because everybody dreams about it you know yeah a developer two years into in the industry a developer 27 years it's always the same thing it's like man I would love to just spend all day making my own ideas come to life right and then a smaller percentage of that actually go go out and do it right so that leap have always been you know it's always good to kind of hear what the the barrier that's keeping a developer from doing that jump because I I I think that a lot of the industry especially the last two years just all these layoffs all this stuff happening like if there was ever a time to like at

least um Put Some Mo some things in motion to do something like this uh yeah because you can't always what you're saying about jumping around same here I think my average is probably three to four years per company right yeah and um it that's most cases you know um I think before I enter the industry people for saying like 5 years right five years is kind of like the max um I don't think I've even hit 5 years for other companies that I've worked for before until I started my own right and uh a lot of the freedom that comes with that uh it's just ease of mind uh just just being able to kind of uh build the skill set to sustain yourself eventually right it's like it's you guys got to do it in small steps like get it going create like get portfolio branding or do some side stuff or get get that going so

it's it's uh it's very interesting kind of hear that you know you're in the Bay Area you're at these great companies and that's still kind of you just had that kind of itch uh that eventually you scratched so yeah totally yeah what what you said definitely res the thing you said earlier about you know moving up the ladder as I say I was a a lead engineer on a bunch of projects and then um I was actually um uh just before I started my uh my own company I was I was a director of gameplay engineering for Midnight Society also a bunch of awesome people yeah um and uh right even there I I felt like uh right as you know at that level I'm a director and there there was another another meeting there was the the more Inner Circle yeah it's never ending it's

frustrating it's like yeah I thought I'm the guy who who else is talking about my thing especially in your area right it's like that's me who else is above me it's never ending it's just that chase uh it's a rat race it really is yeah and I think I think for some people that that works I don't know I'm not 100% sure you've talked to more people than me but uh I feel like maybe some people it has a place in the industry yeah I'm not I'm not going to denounce like a good part of the industry um but there needs to be a balance definitely like I think there's a healthy amount of Indie developers healthy amount of like triaa Blockbuster developers and they need to coexists right yeah totally and I I feel my my heart is in Triple A I mean I just love the the quality that we are able to achieve when you got a big team and you're really spending the time iterating on things and I do I do love the AAA style of stuff um and so for

yeah but you're right um it was an itch and uh yeah I'm not sure what else I can say about that to encourage people I do feel like oh one more top tip maybe is uh upwork you know I don't if you know about upwork.com but the world has become very globalized and so you can find like not just be limited to the people you know Direct but it's like you can if you need concept art or or any you know anything that you aren't personally able to do yourself yeah I have found and I'm not sponsored by upwork I found that uh multiple people there who helped me a lot in this production um via upwork it's it's like uber for you know finding a an an artist or whatever exactly and so the world has that's I think that has been super helpful um and another thing that people can do and and exactly people are it's

more affordable if you're uh if you're hiring outside the Bay Area I'll leave that yeah it's true yeah I think the last two years a lot of people took advantage well the covid years they took advantage of having that California salary and then living in Utah or something I was like hopefully you can buy a house get apartment you know you're I told everyone I was like you're going to move back man you're going to have to you can't retire yet um but like those two years they were making mad bucks you know took advantage of that for sure um so like you guys are about to launch your game demo right um yeah was that a learning curve just to kind of go through Steam and have you ever gone through that process getting it um approved and everything is it pretty simple to get it going or how how does that work it's pretty simple I I did do

it with another um side project um one time I've actually yeah I've got one other thing on Steam it's uh it's not even branded as part of gim gray Productions um but I did go through the process and it's I would say they make it very simple steam is steam is fantastic um there were times when it was more it was harder is more of a Walled Garden kind of thing yeah but nowaday um you do pay a hundred bucks yeah which is like a little bit of a barrier for people um but uh you pay $100 to um to basically say I'm I'm making a game but they are actually they're very uh I think nowadays they don't judge your game you know they they make sure it doesn't violate any of their terms like you know you can't do uh whatever you know anything that would be legal that's not allowed um and uh

but they they don't judge your game on uh you know creative creative Merit or anything like that um they just it's very matter of fact and they're actually very I'm a huge fan of valve I think they make it uh painless and once you submit they they do have um a bunch of requirements I'll give a little details on this um they have a bunch of marketing requirements because their games show up all through the store right they have uh they have different ways it can pop up on people's screens um in the uh new and you know new and trending list or it can show up in the on the front page it's kind of the dream for everyone to show up on the front page of steam but it also can show up in the uh what's it called uh you know uh more like this you know and so they have they'll they'll be like oh you have to provide a bunch of art assets I see to Showcase your game and it's like about 15 different uh you know resolutions yeah different resolutions

of your main so-called capsule art key art uh of your game and so like you got to upload that you got to upload a Gameplay trailer and I think it's five screenshots um so there's a bunch of kind of marketing assets you have to upd upload and you upload your game and then you just say hey uh please review my game and they get back to you within like three days uh and say whether you're approved or not so um so steam is fantastic um you know it's it's not that's not a huge barrier 100 bucks and the time to make a game uh so yeah for that reason I think there are a ton of games on Steam and so that's that's the going back to my fears is like are we going to be able to break through that you know whatever the number is like I actually don't know whether it's it's probably tens of games new games every day come out yeah I don't if it's tens or hundreds even of

new games coming out every day on a lot of games and so you gotta break through that and get your game noticed yeah yeah it's definitely a a a a skill set that people build over time um and I I should mention on the marketing front so we're we decided to go for steam first and then we'll do Quest second so we've been the whole time this my engineering background you know um from the start I was like we want to be on those two platforms and so and onreal engine again huge fan they make it easy to you know it's not trivial but it's pretty easy to build your game and then package it up for uh for PC you know Steam and then also package it up for uh for Quest which is probably everyone knows it's an Android device yeah so it's you know two packaging but and then you can upload to both places um pretty straightforward um

but we decided to focus in on Steam first for like about a month and then we'll do the uh the quest release of the demo a month after that and then another thing I've learned another thing I learned a lot about is marketing I hope my information is uh is good no we're getting to the we're getting to the end of our uh of our hour I'm sure um another shout out to I've been learning a lot from the uh how to Market a game guy is what I call him you know how to Market a game.com and um yeah so he's kind of like get a demo out early he's got a lot of great advice so for people who are into this I'd say check out how to how to Market a game.com and uh and learn from that guy he's got a lot of free resources and uh he highly recommends get your demo out early and then you can get people playing your demo and wish listing your game um yeah what was your question

again no no no just it's you answered it because making a game is a it's a nut to crack on its own right but then publishing a game how how hard is it to get out on Steam yeah well I mean I always like to kind of go through it cuz steam have gotten a lot easier I know they had steam green light way back where they had I guess two guys at at valve like curating that and they like yeah we can't do this all there's not enough they just let it open um yeah totally I just love the fact like you said I'm a big valve a fanboy as well I think most people are I mean they're the last in my opinion Titans left of the game industry I mean used to be ride and blizzard up there and they're kind of like you know what I mean and valve is just like whenever they want to feel like making a game they've been making a lot of splashes um but yeah they made it a lot

easier and not just that their steam storefront is still the place for Indie developers to put out their game it's it's weird yeah you know that that whole I'll me I'll mention uh because I know a lot of your viewers are like interested in how to how to make a game right and getting get into it I'll mention steam do h no uh sorry itch.io um like if you don't want to pay the hundred bucks and you want to put something out there and the how to Market a game guy actually recommends uh I forget his exact reason but he's like put your game out on actually kind of said put it out on itch.io to uh get some some people testing it and giving you feedback early yep and then and then when you actually put it up on uh steam you're more prepared for the uh it's like use that as a I don't know if that's to the itch.io people but but that's like even lower yeah barrier to entry

you don't pay 100 bucks you just put your game out there so yeah people should do it no I think a lot of is just literally it's about building your audience um the AAA mindset is like day one Make It or Break It it's such a dangerous mindset that more often not you know uh it's very challenging let's just say that yeah you you kind of have your captive I've been there for sure with both Star Wars and uh Cod and it's like you've already got an audience yeah exactly so building your audience from scratch is kind of a different thing it's a different thing but people I think nowadays are more receptive about um being a smaller team and we're in early prototyping can you you know here's Early Access and people like that kind of exclusivity or more importantly being a part of it being part of the process process than just a uh consumer of a product so that's like the biggest

thing that like a lot of people are just hammering home like as soon as you have a demo put it out there get Tes and get feedback because it will help inform basically tailor your game towards your target audience which you don't kind of know you have an idea before publishing a game I like oh I think these are they're a bunch of mes right but then your game is demo or whatever gets out there it's like oh these are way different than what I thought oh we should change it a bit and be receptive yeah so that's why I never get when I see bad um devs uh well devs giving bad uh just just getting into it with their fans basically right it's like oh you should have done that that so there's a lot of back and forth at least in the AAA space where I get I get that there is like take pride in your work you know uh stay true to your vision stuff right

but if you're putting it out there right you're kind of asking for feedback right and I think it's uh it's always good to be receptive those feedback because that is that that's the people who either got it early that downloaded day one that is spending the time to actually try out your thing that's the 1% right um so I you know everything you're you're doing uh and saying it resonates with a lot of you know a lot of different uh guests that have come on just put it out early that's awesome um and you're going to learn a lot from that for sure super excited for you man yeah I I want to embrace it even more on my second game I'm already in some sense thinking about it uh because we I mean basically we decided to make a puzzle game for this first one and uh in a lot of ways it there's not in my view there's not replay Val replay value it's

like once you've solved the puzzles then you're like you know you uh you know you know the game and you're unlikely to play it again no that to some extent I knew that's what I was making but I wasn't when I first decided this was the game we'd make um I wasn't really thinking about all that um interaction with the community yeah and uh because you're right um if you have a game that's more like you know some sort of like a let's take Minecraft as a sort of example of a thing it's like that can be totally people can just keep playing it over and over again yeah and if the developers are like oh now we've you know now we've added skeletons and now we've added zombies and now we've you know now we added uh you know Diamond uh that you can mine and like all these different things that can all be done iteratively yeah and in collaboration with your with your community um and so I want to I think I'm definitely thinking about that for

future games uh how to be more engaged with the community as we're building it um as opposed to this I feel like the demo is uh yeah I don't expect people to play multiple times and we're kind of yeah that's the way we're thinking about this is that people will play it and be like hell yeah I want to I want to play the rest of it you know yeah um but uh we'll I mean we'll definitely um we'll definitely take everything that people say and improve it um but uh as I say it's it's a little different than like a firstperson shooter or something that you just people put 10,000 hours into yeah ours is ours is going to be more like you put in four to six hours and you're you know you've you've enjoyed the whole experience that's that's kind of my sweet 46 hours hours yeah like I don't have that much patience as I used to I want to complete it you know just the satisfaction of completing uh something is I guess what

I sought at after for like narrative games especially is like yeah like I'm not a grinder I'm not a grinding guy I'm not a 100% completion guy either uh yeah me either yeah I I want to experience the vision of the Creator through and I feel like if I go past six hours I don't know what my St itic is maybe steam does I don't I don't tend to finish those games as much something else pops up I'm the same yeah it's like uh exactly it's hard to get and it's kind of like how many how many sessions are you going to do yeah um and I I sort of like I don't know gaming sessions are couple hours for me yeah and so yeah if I if I have to do more than two sessions it's unlikely that I'll do yeah I'll finish the game unless I'm really somehow MO at I got to be motivated by uh by something else I guess to to Really finish a game

like yeah uh one I finished recently was because one of my kids was like oh you gotta play this game you gotta play this game they kept uh kept at me uh to keep playing it um that was a Zero Escape you know that game yeah um the the Nery games yeah it's it's an escape room and uh one of my kids uh kept saying Yeah you got to play this game and so I I I probably I don't know how many I did at least 10 sessions to to get through the first game yeah that's good but it's it is a cool game I I agree it's a lot of lot of cool stuff in that game anyway yeah but uh so you're you do you do a lot of single player games I tend to um I'm getting back into it I mean I started I got interested in the game industry as a gamer mostly playing all the single narrative games um right and then got into you know Counter

Strike and Call of Duty multiplayer stuff uh as I've matured uh you know like you said my gaming sessions have shortened because of life and kids and family and stuff so like the multiplayer were easier to pick up and and let go right but now that they're older I'm finding myself going back to the single player games because I that's what I love I love the story I love the music I love the the cut scenes I love everything about the interactive you know let me be katos type of thing like that's where I kind of lean towards like I got lost like you I I it's been a while since I've got lost forgotten the time uh in a gaming session but I've been playing gong and yeah the black myth the monkey yeah yeah yeah yeah so the it's a it's beautiful game and it's all about like boss fights after boss fights and uh yeah I just got lost in it um uh it's

the most surprising thing I keep mentioning on this pod is that it's bug free like the team size uh they're a Chinese game developer is yeah it's like on10th of a AAA but it's a AAA quality game um they just very focused with this narrative with a relatively small team you say very small team like I think once you uh check it out it's pretty impessive the difficulty of it is the it's not even like those fake difficulty things when you make it hard it's just like impossible to beat right it's literally the bosses have different strategy it's all about timing and dodging and timing so there's a strategy to which I fell in love with so every boss is like a spectacle they're very different and designed well and it's it's fun um but yeah like yeah finally getting back into it it's kind it's this long absence that's why I got the steam deck uh kind of help with being mobile and not in

front of the computer all the time nice okay so you've been playing it on your steam deck yeah steam deck that game I have to play on the computer because it's still high graphics um okay kind of missing out if you don't but everything else pretty much steam deck I love the steam deck um it's a huge success on my and do you have a VR headset yet I do actually you know I didn't realize how much I thought I was like a casual VR guy but I I I owned the ocas 2 I even own like the gear OAS gear at one point yeah that that was one of the ones when that I think was a disservice to the community stick the phone on your face it's like I don't think it's safe it's not a good thing not safe and also it wasn't a really great experience yeah it was just an intro of a mobile experience really but I have the meta 3 you know uh right now nice nice all right I'm pretty updated with the metas

oh hell yeah yeah oh yeah yeah if you've got the meta 3 you're you're on it yeah that's awesome in my opinion yeah yeah no it's great I it definitely um does a lot of cool things for sure so so did you wish list us on uh steam yet yeah I just wish list so did everyone that listen there you go oh hell yeah that's awesome that's uh but uh this is actually the point of the podcast I want to thank you for your time we went over an hour but it was hopefully a fun hour uh fun for me so uh this is where I actually shut up hand the mic over to you to tell the good people out there where exactly uh to go what they should be doing uh and where to find you guys uh cool I guess um I guess I'll say first of all you can go to escape from hadrians well.com for that game uh I mean just yeah just to

find the game on the web um but right now what we're really uh hoping people will do is is find us on Steam and I think you can go to steam and search escape from Hadrian's Wall and uh uh I see it all the time if you type that into steam does it show our our game yeah we see it yeah I see it nice and so yeah I hope that people will check it out check us out and uh you know and if you think it looks cool uh then wish list us and I will say that um next Wednesday the October 16th we're going to be um we're going to be releasing a new Gameplay trailer as well as uh as well as the demo and so uh that's going to be a red letter day for us so yeah check us out after October 16th and uh and hopefully uh you like what you see and uh and you're and you're going to download it and play it and wish list for the full game all right uh as always

you can find in the link description of the show go over there buy it wish list it you know support a fell Dev thanks so much but thanks Jim thanks for uh for coming on and see you guys all next week [Music] [Music]