Epic VS Apple | Roundtables News Episode 232

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of game dev unchained hosted by blue champs the number one game podcast about game development in the lifestyle thereof i am your host here and always will be brandon fam and joining me are unofficial second guess i guess where we talk at least once a month the roundtable news episode ray graham how you doing ray hey what's up how you doing i miss you dude uh it's it's been a minute it's been a while it's been a minute yeah i think the invite somehow got lost in the mail but i'm glad you're here a lot of things have been happening but i think uh let's just jump right into it uh

before that i actually as tradition i kind of like uh to check out on you right virtually i haven't seen you for a while is still the same i mean it seems like we're kind of been kind of locked in shelter and the numbers are going down again so things are opening up again once again in california how are you guys doing up in the bay area yeah you know uh what is it like in by area at least you can do outdoor dining if you want but i've been oh okay pretty much pretty much the staying home honestly um and at this point now it looks like work is like yeah you don't have to show up until june next year if you don't want to so so it's it's yeah it's it's gonna break it's a bless it's a blessing to be able to work from home and still get paid but but yeah working from like staying in the house and not really being able to do much is kind of terrible but i'm still trying

i'm trying to get out trying to do what i what i can but it's it's uh it's not great last time i talked to you you were feeling some kind of a mental prison uh have you kind of have you broke yet or are you past that point of your your you're accepting this as life where where are you yeah yeah like i'm i'm i'm fine at least as long as i get a chance to go out or talk to people i think it's fine i do have a trip planned for like labor days so that's good but um yeah oh yeah driving around are you flying what are you doing i'm not getting on no plane um it's driving yeah that's decided to drive down to like down southern california and just hang out so yeah that's good plan it's nice for you to tell me that's that's where you're at

i'm passing you you're making sure you're passing me so san diego then i'm guessing yeah in san diego yeah it's nice dude well uh yeah i think road trips are really popular now a lot of rv parks and uh it's just vehicles on the road lately it's everyone using that as an alternative to be somewhat socially safe and responsible and getting some fresh air it's kind of getting me through yeah why not this is the best time to do it right yeah as long as your rv has some kind of internet service should be fine or go to some sort of park or get airbnb on some sort of deserted river or something like yeah there's a lot of things you could do to get out are you you know are you getting in close to people the airbnb is uh kind of hurting right now like is that still a thing that people are using i'm sure some people are using it still yeah like as long as it's not some like random airbnb that's not clean i think

it's i think it's okay but like it's hurting because people are just not flying right and so that's not flying or traveling yeah yeah but but people that are local local to a spot are are you know they're just gonna get some business from local people right yeah well it seems like the hotels are kind of infested with homeless people recently that's part of i don't understand i don't understand the the frame of thinking with that it seems to be uh i won't stay on this topic too long but it seems to be a lot of that happening up there in the the bay area man like you guys are housing a lot of homeless people in these like really nice hotels and supplying them with the drugs they need to stay in the hotel i guess when hearing that that sounds that's that sounds like a good thing i guess like that's one of the good things that coming out of this but yeah it's it's uh nobody nobody's traveling right

nobody's like so like what else are you gonna do with all that real estate guess i guess it's also one of the reasons why people are leaving california because we're like accommodating homeless people so well anyways let's go to uh uh man there's so many things that have happened you know uh maybe at some point we'll brush with it uh you know the ubisoft thing you know a lot of your old pals are caught up in this me too man [Laughter] the whole manifest was happening i mean that's a whole episode on itself but um i want to talk about the meat of the subject of course the last week and a half have been uh an epic battle of the decade i would say this one and it's only 20 20 is how i say it right like if this year

wasn't crazy enough at the epic uh felt like 70 million dollar wasn't enough right hundy and uh it's way more than that by the way it's way more it's way more than 100 mil a month on mobile devices alone i believe that i'm just tr like i think that number i pulled from like the first time they went mobile is that first month when they went mobile was 100 mil so of course it had climbed tens folds and they're kind of hiding behind i feel uh uh a barricade of uh the the people right where they're saying like we're doing this for you guys and so there's a lot of things happening right now but let's kind of before i ask you and throw you what your thoughts are let me kind of break it down for a lot of people out there and fill in fill in the the gaps here right so uh

epic recently uh had like kind of like this uh agenda with apple for weeks before they finally released their app with in-app purchases bypassing apple's payment system and we all knew they were kind of prepared because as soon as they got banned from apple they kind of threw a lawsuit at apple and google at the same time saying that there's a monopoly in the app store and the google play store and how 30 is too much and that they're not asking for any uh crazy damages or anything they just want to reinstate fortnite and allow uh developers like themselves to have a cheaper deal right so a lot of that kind of harks back to how amazon the only deal of its kind that got like a break 15 and we kind of know why because apple and amazon are neck and neck in terms of muscle power right so respect so

fortnite even though it's one of the biggest games ever uh is nowhere near where apple and amazon is and the last time i checked that's a two trillion dollar you know flex from an apple so like apple can literally buy epic tomorrow if they wanted to uh which would probably be cheaper than just going through its lawsuit and paying everybody that might that's their trump move right so i get i think this is a little vague overview of what's going on but i want to throw it over to you man what what where your thoughts as these things are happening one after another yeah like normally i'm on the side of the people on this right like i i do believe i do believe that apple can charge less yeah right on on ios right so for for the in-app

purchases and for their their payment system they could take less than a 30 cut they really can right they can afford to do that uh but when it's a big rich company complaining that apple's doing this with apple has already done this to other big bigger and richer companies yes i'm like man a bite man you you need to calm down right that's basically where that's basically where i'm at right like i i'd rather be the little guy like and this is not the first time this has happened like like epic is flexing a bit more because they have a bit more money than say uh the hay app was a big point of contention um there's this email app that came out called hey for for at least a couple of weeks they're going back and forth to the apple over their terms because they allowed people to sign up for their subscription uh inside the app but weren't were kind of bypassing apple's payment system right and apple was like nope can't do

that sorry and so they worked apple and they figured out a way of that was seamless and not horrible for their users in order to get their users to sign up for this for the subscription um but they're way smaller than epic right epics like no we're not going to take this anymore but then at the same time they have so much money where it's like yo just pay the 30 because you know there's a benefit to being on apple right there's a benefit to be having access to to to the largest mobile customer base in the u.s right and in asia it's a completely different story but in the us you know that it's apple all day and you know that's where you're gonna get all your customers and so there's there's a premium you have to pay for that um should that premium be 30 on every transaction uh probably not but it's not like epic is struggling to afford that right so right that's

right right so the grounds of what they're fighting on is the monopolistic uh app store where apple owns everything like you said therefore uh the government it sounds like they want the government to step in since the lawsuit but the government kind of did this with all the tech companies like a few couple weeks ago right with nothing to say like they all they proved was they got a little smarter in asking questions but they weren't really pushing these tech companies to do anything that they were used to be able to do with microsoft was the last big split that i've remembered uh where was forced to but it's been what two decades but this is not really but it's not really monolithic it's not really monolithic practices and then people are we're also mentioning consoles right because if you ship your game on an xbox or a playstation you have to pay you have to pay a fee this [ __ ] there's a percentage that they take

right yeah um because you're getting access to a customer base that they have cultivated right and so there's there's cost there right and uh and so like it's not even and and then you have your platform that you're building you have the right to say how people will use your platform all right so if you're just like if you're like hey if you want to do payments do it through us because you will make sure it's secure right so there's the security of the safety aspect which i think like it's like apple will use that as a way of justifying 30 i still think it's a bit overblown right like you want the safety security you don't have to charge 30 for it right but apple has every right to do whatever they want on their own platform right and you can't come on to somebody else's platform and tell them you can't do that and and i want to punish you for your success because you have a large customer base right

yeah so i kind of did like a a warm up for this right and i i know i'm more on your side but kind of checking the other side right here in the discord channel we there was quite a conversation and i think the people uh generally sides with epic obviously it sounds right and really correct but the business side of me is like yo get off my list it's like it's like to me the the the comparison i keep going back to is like if i'm walmart and you're clorox and you come into my store and then suddenly tell me how i should conduct business and what my percentage takes should be i'm gonna tell you to get out of my store like there's no incentive for me on the business side besides moral obligations quote unquote right because that that's still iffy ground because epic is it's another rich billionaire company right just not as rich as trillionaire but it's another rich kid yelling at

another rich kid uh about what to do so for me it's always been like that even on a more personal level you come into my house right just because i use one of your things and you tell me how to arrange my whole house it doesn't make any sense right so history shows that it never works that way yeah no it gets worse when you think of it like uh it's it's not just it's what is it it's let's say it's walmart and target and target is coming up into walmart and saying you know what like i don't want to sell my stuff in your store i want to build my own store inside your store right and i want to sell my stuff in my store in your store and exactly walmart it's like yo walmart's like yo i pay rent over here and i have all these customers coming to my store and then target's like nah yeah i just want to build my own store in here screw what you're doing i just want to i just want to make my money and i want to take it with me and i'm not going to share it

with you at all but i'm going to use your your floor space you know what i mean and then the walmart's like walmart's like nah i'm not going to allow that and then target is like well well [ __ ] your first face i don't care i'm gonna i'm gonna screw you down right that's what's happening right i totally agree with you man like i don't know why i'm thinking maybe i can throw some asian history right while like uh world war ii china and japan was in a war japan was buying up land in china claiming that because they bought these land that they can make up the rules and laws within those proximity that doesn't make any sense it's still you know the country of origins law and order right so i i don't see any example where on epic like the thing that i keep bringing up too yeah go ahead let me finish the stock real quick yeah there we go do your thing yeah so the thing the funny thing is epic kind of had a similar fight with steam right but they did the right

thing they opened up their own epic store right which was commendable and they're creating their own ecosystem that they feel is the correct way of doing it right i think that's the best way to respond to a system that you don't agree with as a business right um i had a first and and for i guess for more obvious reasons even though steam is not as i still still feel steam is pretty pretty pretty strong in the pc market right it's the spot for pc but not quite as much maybe as apple and google kind of owning the app store right but even then i feel like it's so crazy that they're going down this route when they just proved about six months ago how to go about it correctly right yeah and it seems like because they're they they're already folding up their throwing their hands up because they know they can't win this fight even if they can't go out there and make

epic phones right they can't do something um i think there were some instances where they tried this with the android devices right they were trying to make some uh fortnight deals with uh manufacturers like oneplus or certain phones but google kind of put a stop to it saying that you can't have these phones be pre-installed uh basically yeah um that i think is a better argument to have right because it feels like it i mean is that a workaround too how do you feel about that because i feel like that's a little bit more fair because android is is open system it doesn't really falls off as much i i think in the case of android though like they google play still has rules right so you if you put your game through google play they have rules you could sideload your game on android super easy right but they but epic and google both know that it's a much better and easier user

experience so you can reach more people if you could just install it through the store yeah right and because that is true google's like give us our money yeah run run me my paper it's basically what google's saying right yeah and and epic epix is like nah i don't think so right yeah um and like if this was like a small company that didn't have their own store that was just trying to sell an app and try to keep most most of the profits for like for them to keep up your amount of people they're going to reach so that they can make their app successful that's the difference right then that is a different story yeah but if it's like the company that's making mad money and super successful and really what they want to do is just cut out more from google like now that they have that the foothold they're like hey epic game store on iphone and on google that'd be amazing and we keep all of the bread right like like it's just a way for them

to try to exert their dominance and get get customers and to get market share uh it's not like but it's and then it's being painted as a move for the for the little guy for the customers and like i understand how the customers benefit but but epic benefits way more right oh yeah i think that's um that's what sounds very disingenuous basically yeah that that's exactly it i think that's why i'm so apprehensive to kind of give epic it's um it's it's a time to shine with this whole ordeal like there is a lot of gamers and even i think new developers that are kind of like yeah i mean epic is on the right so let's do this right but for me like the more jaded senior side of me is like come on guys we like in my eyes and in my mind i'm seeing my my boss of every aaa job and i'm seeing the greediness in their eyes hiding behind the people right i think

it's just the most the the oldest way to kind of get your way uh but like even though the execution was so stupid man like they came out with the it was a cinematic perfect it was perfectly stupid for my reason for this reason right it's a cinematic right made in like freaking sequencer by a few artists and this is just their off time when they're not making billions off a fortnight and then they just made it thinking you know geeking out over themselves saying this is going to change the world hahaha and and that's their campaign free fortnight it's like if there was any war would you round up the geekiest 10 year olds maybe 20 year olds as as in your court stacked them up in your corner to fight this fight for you is like how are they changing anything dude no i know honestly honestly it was a troll let's just be real right

it was basically tim sweeney is like okay we're going to do this because like you know like under the covers like you saw him you saw the emails under the covers he said the emails yeah guys allow me to do this because i don't want to pay the 30 tim cook was just like was like hey lawyers handle this guy right right so for the listeners who don't know about this there were like weeks and weeks of emails before the the the final yeah cutthroat move that apple did yeah what gets me jokes about it though is literally like he tim sweetie himself like ceo sends the email to to tim cook of those guys and then those guys are literally don't even respond and just say hey lawyers handle that and they ran the lawyers and the lawyers roll up and handle it right and then two so he gets outraged that the lawyers emailed him and not and and not tim cook himself right and and it's just to me it's hilarious and because of that like he he's he's bitter and he's upset

about it and i think and i think he i think he's he's right to be upset about it quite frankly and then uh then so then he's like okay let's let's let's plan an elaborate pr assault right and it was actually very well executed and very well timed and very well planned and uh and he knew what was going to happen when they when they flipped the switch to the app and then he they had the free fortnite video ready to post that like right on time and put that on twitter and make everybody get all their stuff yeah but what they their calculation though their calculation though was that they're just too big for people to care that much right people just like come on why you why are you crying over all this money like well that's the thing about this right their response is a very gamer response it's like a character in a game right responding to a real world thing like you're talking about a ceo this is he's a fresh billionaire right he's been rich

for a while i'm talking about uh sweden this is a fight of the thames basically right sweeney is is a fresh billionaire versus an apple company that have bigger and more money making apps that are currently trumping fortnite right now right so fortnite's nothing there's one out of the top 10 maybe right um and so when they see this type of stuff why would they pay so much attention to one it'd be kind of unfair to kind of treat epic um in a special way like honestly i think apple responded fine and obviously their stocks are fine like no one cares like that's the biggest thing it's just that yeah the execution of a gamer or a game developer of trying to win this thing yeah the calculation looks exactly that but in the real world man you're not making any dents like it's a joke yeah right your your best your best fight is

a cartoon dude like seriously like if you're gonna want this to be a serious thing then treat it seriously right like i would have respected more tim sweeney like just sitting in front of the camera and saying hey guys this is a serious thing man like here are some developers that are using unreal right now that are getting 30 percent cut like they can barely live as is and even with a successful game you know 30 percent cut really is taxing to their bottom line and they might not be around next year just because of this like they should have spent that campaign on a very serious no instead what are they doing they're they're promoting more fortnite it's like go play it on the switch you know go play it on playstation or the pc where we get the most profits it's they don't care dude i really like them it's actually not great on mobile either like the mobile version is definitely not the best version of that game

it's great enough to make 200 plus million a month it makes so much it makes so much money and more power to them but i just don't like it's not a good game on mobile at all right um in my opinion of course uh but um but the uh the crazy the other part of this that we're like you know epic has been fighting this fight and i think it's a good fight to fight honestly i do think it's a good fight to fight i disagree with them i just disagree with them fighting it right and they thought it was seen and they and because pc's open platform they could just build a store on pc and they did that and then they they undercut seem steam's take and a lot of indie developers were like i'll take the extra money that is good thing for indie developers right and and that's something that's a proactive initiative like i think that yeah correctly what they're doing now they're not doing anything they're not doing anything for developers right now well well they're doing this they're not doing anything for dollars other than

their own right but eventually like look at the long game on this right the long game on this is there's the epic game store but then also i'm sure epic wants to have their wants to monetize and sell their own payment system right and so then when developers developers make a mobile game on unreal engine they can use their own epics payment system to to uh to do their payments and then if epic was able to cut out apple the developers would get more of their money to them because there's no cut the apples taking only epic would take the cut right and epic would take a smaller cut right right like i think it's the long game to all of this is basically apple we want to cut out your 30 and we want to take our smaller percentage right and we will make money right like that's that's really the long the long and short of the whole thing right i think the long and short of it in reality is that it was the very short version on ethics

i said you know what's you know what's more than 30 or what's less than 30 percent man zero percent how about that epic instead of making 200 million this month make zero dollars this month man nobody nobody thinks nobody thinks that apple's cut should be zero right like i don't think anybody out here thinks that no no no what i'm saying is that because of this move yeah they're not making 70 of money anymore they're making 0 in the month of september and probably october however long this lawsuit goes for the next two years yeah i think it was a really dumb move and i can't imagine investors on that side of epic 10 cent or whatever is high-fiving tim sweeney over this right now okay no dude i'm scared i'm sure 10 cents on the sideline eating popcorn they love that [ __ ] right because then like 10 cent like like let's be real 10 cent has a lot to gain as well right if this goes

yeah forget about yeah forget about epic right tencent has their own apps and their own things that they're selling on the ios store can you imagine if tencent could make their own store on ios you don't think tessa would do that of course you don't know how much money it's going to make everyone's like distracted by the green but the reality is apple didn't even squint man they shrugged it off and they doubled down by saying like how about this epic all unreal games it can't be on the apple store so to me it shows them that we don't care about you epic yeah like there's no way we're compromising on this yeah let's talk about that let's let's talk let's talk about that for a minute right because actually the court case got resolved today on that yeah it got solved and i and i think we should all agree we should all agree that apple doing that to them was was cold blooded and unnecessary

right and it was it was just apple exerting their power and they're like look at this mess up we just mess up your whole life right here and we're just going to do this right and then the judge clearly was like yeah you're overstepping your boundaries here like you have to let you have to give them back their developer accounts and reactivate that right um but it but it also don't do i laughed at it because it's also like it just shows how cold-blooded apple is right to me it just shows how little and very picture apple's petty cold-blooded right and they was just like you know what we know you're gonna cave so let's just exert our power right that's all that it's a power move right and it's not it's not about like being little to them or like apple's is the biggest company in the world right so they're just like screw you guys like we'll just insert our power swatch and the judge is like calm down you you

can't do that which i agree with too like i don't think that was that was a necessary move right right i i'm glad the court actually because obviously developers will be collateral damage to this club's fight right so uh i'm glad that the judge even understood what this is about to even rule that because i read i read it i was like wow this person actually kind of knows how this business works so i was very impressed uh that that actually went through in time because i guess it was the end of the month um deadline but what i mean fortnite's gonna be banned i mean like the the phones pre-installed with uh fortnite are selling for thousands of dollars on ebay already so people are at least benefiting from this i i that move to me is a powerful but at the same time it just really shows me that why would apple compromise at all unless unless

unless the government step in right i don't see anything coming from this like no one can force apple to change their business right here's here's the thing about this is i think i think ideal would be made right a deal will be i believe we do like the amazon deal yeah like yeah like exactly apple's already made a deal with amazon oh that'd be a cascading effect of deals bro but i think i think it's also necessary right honestly i i do agree that 30 percent is too much yeah everyone looks at 30 is too much it's in the same week within the same breath of epil epic's like last breath taken in the app store with fortnite right they were announced as the first two trillion dollar company right within the same week so yeah like it's working

why would you shoot the cash cow all of a sudden like you know they give fortnight videos i don't even know how much of a cash cow that is quite frankly right like oh dude it was like a 500 billion dollar the app store 500 billion dollar the last i think the last player let me pull it up let me make sure but the last time i read it was like a 500 billion a 500 billion dollar business thus far the app store oh yeah dude i'm mad don't think about it dude like right yeah epic is huge but there's so many other go ahead oh sorry no go ahead app store there's so many other bigger games since the beginning of the iphone yeah so apple apple app store into that in january estimated gross sales of 50 billion dollars um so 50 billion times times 30

30 uh gives you uh let me just let me get a quick bath on that uh that is about 15 billion 15 billion dollars in gross sales yeah why would they do anything to that business it's their life and blood at this point and i would yeah they deserve that but the headset the headset sales and everything like that are still more than this right like i mean yeah let me let me see you turn away 15 billion dollars and say hey wow that was a huge part of this but what i'm saying is that uh let's put it into perspective seriously put it in perspective is apple's total revenue is 260 billion dollars yeah 15 billion is the app store

right so they could they could not charge 30 percent of the app store like 15 out of 260 billion is not it's not uh or 15 billion out of 260 billion is not a whole lot of cash right or a whole lot of percentage sure i see a lot of parallel yeah it's about six percent it's about six percent of their total revenue sure that's like that's bonkers that's crazy right right i see a lot of parallels between this and steam though to be honest like um even with all these outcry that epic caused and you know maybe the rs creating well i mean not even a fraction of what steam is making now even although the epic store is succeeding in their own way right didn't make a dent right steam is still the place to go uh if you have something right because epic is

not completely opening it up for everybody it's just for i would have someone with a name i would have to think in terms of like you know because i have a steam account i have epic account whatever right but like i would i would like to think in terms of like when a new game drops the difference in revenue between epic and steam is probably enormous right because i look on steam i see a lot of older games and and games that are just like you know from from the mainstays and maybe a new game will show up there or not right but missing out on sales of say metro exodus for a year um that's uh that's that's that means something right but maybe seem just makes up for it in sheer volume of money but i'm sure i'm sure the revenue has gone down has to though yeah like you know yeah right i mean these are games that used to be steam first and now they're on yeah and it's been like that for a good year and a half now like just exclusive after

exclusive so the question is the question is like i don't know if the because the epic game sort of doesn't have a whole lot of stuff on there there's more and more things whatever it's not a whole lot of stuff is that chunk that they've taken out of steam enough for steam to even feel it is the question right i don't know well i what the one thing i do know is that when i go to the epic store i'm there just to download the free game and just have it and collect in my library and i never really play any of them but when i do want to play games i go to steam i don't know why that works that way uh i'm just not very inclined to play games on epics yet i don't know why maybe it's just that i have it um yeah i haven't really given games a lot of a couple games i play on the epic store like phoenix point and there's some other games that i play uh hold on i'll tell you right now oh yeah like tony hawk is going to be on

there the new tony hawk is going to be right here outer worlds out of worlds i was playing for a bit phoenix points uh what else control is on there all the controls coming to steam finally but uh yeah it's been like a year right um there's some good games there's some good games to play on this sure i i'm just not a fan of um yeah their epic launcher feels like a game itself because it just blows up my computer before i load anything not even the editor right i just think this whole thing is i think this whole thing's funny because i remember when steam first launched when everybody was in out roar because hitting box you had to install steam right yeah and everybody's like i want orange box but i don't want to have to install steam and like everything is all an uproar about it and now steam is the place to go to buy video games right there's still some old school folks or folks that are holding on to the grudges and like i

only i only get from gog or from ichio or whatever sure um but but but steam is the factual thing but everybody was mad at steam when steam first launched just like how everybody is mad at epic when epic store launched right like we'll get used to it everybody was bad at origin it looks like finally ea has given up an origin finally right everyone's still mad at orange and yeah i was about to say no one plays ea has finally given up on it it seems because most a lot of ea games are starting to show up on steam now right uh you play everybody was mad at you play but all the ubisoft stuff is on epic game store right so you don't even need you play anymore so like like i don't know like i just think a lot of people are overreacting to a lot of this stuff right but um but we know that epic just wants to keep all the money to themselves it's not really yeah and that's the thing right that this ingenuous makes me not really want to march on

that side right now that's why i'm more yeah it's not even empathetic because obviously apple doesn't need any of our empathy they're doing fine but i think i think like it's a weird thing because it's not morally i think they are within their moral rights to do whatever they want right because i feel like steam they created this path for themselves this market that wasn't a market before they pioneered it right they proven that their app store was worth being on sustained that uh even with android coming out of you know the graveyard of google right something that actually is working from google besides maps and another good google search right android right so that's the thing too like i i i think

i admire people who don't like ecosystem to come up with a solution that doesn't force other people to change the way this way it's more like it's more like hey i can come up with better rules i'll figure it out myself and that's what android is right so i feel like the way epic is doing it is you're kind of taking the shortcut here to get to your way uh where there really isn't a a pathway to get your way right now like whatever you're saying right now is ridiculous it's like your current zone is not gonna make me change my mind well the only difference between that is like like google at least was like we can make our own phones so we can get we can get on other people's phones right epic doesn't have any hardware then fold man jesus it's very simple all right this isn't a video game tim sweeney you need to get it out of your head this ain't gears of war it's like

if you're not willing to put in the the work to come up with opposition or just you know straight up say that i can't do it then pay the 30 i mean that's just the way it is it's not a monopoly it's hey no one's stopping them from from making a phone right it would be a monopoly if if someone was like ceasing and desisting epic games from making an epic phone right that to me is a monopoly that is unfair it's completely fine [Music] it's just a lot of work right so they're complaining about how much work it would be and just in the funniest way trying to bully well that's the funny thing about this they think they're bullying apple that's two trillion dollar titan right that's why no that's why they don't really try to bully apple right that's why they got they try to get the people behind them right because they know that

dude yeah yeah they know they're not a strong example so they're like let's get the people behind us to help pressure apple and apples to like this is like still like you're gonna buy the phone so yeah this is this is this is him this is uh epic trying to get the people behind him right all right here's the 10 year olds that are playing fortnite all right here's a cartoon help us out and then once in a while you hear a tech company like microsoft and spotify throwing their opinions in there and they're and they're straight okay yeah okay let's talk about it but what's you know what's funny their app store is still there they're not pulling it like yeah and they sit back down that's what they're doing right it's like yeah but you tell all right uh so 30 this month right apple all right i want to make sure we we pay our bills on time it's like that's not a fight dude i mean yeah that's if that's the best you're hoping for

then you got it it changes nothing people are still gonna want to pay because they know they need to be in the apple store it's a fact there's two there's two things right the one thing is is uh apple had a dispute with google over getting fortnite on the google play and it wasn't on google play for a good i would like to say a good six months could never show up on google play right it was good finally folded yeah and then it finally folded in march and and put it on google play right you either either you know a deal was struck or they just folded right yeah and the fact that they in fact that they they um google pulled them back off the google store amongst this whole apple thing tells me they probably didn't strike a deal they probably just folded it and said okay fine we'll just with this we'll suck it up and adhere to your terms so the fact that they've already folded at least once it probably made tim really salty but it also shows that like they just they're probably going to fold again right like oh yeah

like what is uh i just don't see an end game that favors in epic's side there's no leverage going on i mean within a week they were able to say epic we don't need to period like what do you have i think it amplifies it makes us want to talk at least at least amplifies the issues so that people are talking about it and the and maybe some people are like you know what that 30 is kind of high and so that that segues into microsoft throwing their hat into the ring right with when microsoft said something i was like why the hell are they saying anything and then when you think about it for a minute oh yeah x cloud x cloud is not coming to ios right yeah i already why is xcloud on on android first right because apple's like no right apple's like no you're not going to sell your stuff here and sell your subscriptions here

no and microsoft's like fine we won't do it and so now they're now epic is is sitting here fighting with apple over the same thing that of course microsoft wants access to microsoft would love to have the microsoft store on ios you you don't have to want the microsoft floor on ios right because they know that apple is king and on these grounds and they want to dethrone the king because everyone benefits from getting their thirty percent you know you know less than thirty percent charge right for sure it's not even the less than not thirty the less than 30 percent charge it's also i can put up my own store on this thing and i don't need something right so educate me a bit so is xcloud i thought excel was working like netflix where you paid ten dollars and that's it is there more purchase after that yeah well i'm sure like i'm sure like if you i'm sure they would want i install xcloud i sign into my microsoft account and i pay microsoft

my my game pass subscription for xcloud right and microsoft takes all that money if they did that on the ios device apple takes 30 takes 30 of the right right science yeah and mike's microsoft is like hell no do i want to give you 30 of that and so they're just like you know what we would rather does that even be on here than to deal with all of that stuff right like they could yeah they could do they could jump through hoops and like say oh please sign up on our website like like what and what uh amazon does with kindle books you have to buy kindle books on their website you can't buy kindle books on the ios device right um but microsoft microsoft's probably like we don't want to deal with this hassle like just just just screw it right and and they're going to worry about it later and they're probably and they're probably and they're probably currently negotiating like what those terms are right and that's why they threw their i think it's dumb if microsoft walks away and not want to be in the ios store

like i i just feel it's dumb it's a dumb businessman because people the exciting thing about xcloud is the chance for me to play i don't even have an iphone right i have a pixel but like the idea of xcloud and what makes it exciting is that anybody can play on the phones and yeah i'm sorry microsoft you know we're talking about epic trying to make their own own phones but they failed microsoft did that exactly years ago and they know how hard the phone business is so out of everybody they should appreciate you know what apple have done uh with their business to provide a warehouse for them to put their apps where millions of people will see it and be able to access it like to me it's just very good see this is coming from the pixel guy i hate iphones right i don't even like apple products that much like i hate their macs and their mac tops right whatever they call it imax right it's dumb all right everything

about it is dumb it takes forever to do one thing and that there's three ways to do it on the pc that's much faster right so this is coming from a guy that i don't really like anything from apple but what i respect is that you know they put in the work to build something that people have tried to compete against and they have not been able to topple so that thirty percent although high it's the best deal in town i mean what else is revealed them and google right but even like with google every yeah yeah industry standard is 30 everybody's taking 30 everybody 30 yeah so like i think it's no one's business but apple and google to decide how to run their store and it it just it's amateur hour man like everything i've been seeing the last two weeks it's like guys new money

coming into the playground and deciding how how trillion dollar companies should run their company it's silly man to me i feel kind of embarrassed like i feel like i feel embarrassed as a gamer like they already don't respect gamers right or game developers from the very birth of the app store like straight up uh uh steve jobs said this is not a game device right he like he would say scabbing things about the gaming community uh though you know in years since we've proven that this community is a very big part of the apple ecosystem and they you know made the apple arcade and all these changes but they still don't care about it they still look they still don't care they still don't exactly right so for them i think this is a step in the wrong direction like if you want a mutual respect

from them i think this is very juvenile too too it's like it's super and it's it's super it's super juvenile and if you read the emails like because apple had upset i need to read it in more in depth yeah so what how did it come off in that email sweeney oh it came it came off very very spoiled and very like very like oh this is what that's what i'm going to do this is it wasn't even asking was just like this what we're going to do we're going to be forced to do this and i'll see you guys in court pretty much like it was just like really like like screw you guys if you don't do this so that's why and that's why tim cook sent this straight to the lawyers because he's like like let's sue this dude and tell this dude that he's tripping right but uh but it was it's it came off very like very aggressive like when i read the emails right uh and i was just laughing because i thought it was hilarious i thought the whole thing was hilarious right because it's just like yo like one rich man not used to being say no to yeah yeah that's why man i feel uh i think

everybody can you know at the very basic level we all want you know the gamers and game developers to win right obviously i feel like this wasn't the way i think that's kind of took us a step a couple steps back yeah i felt kind of embarrassed the way this was done like the cartoon was cute but it to me didn't sound serious like as soon as i saw that you know i'm popping up i was like all right these guys aren't serious dude this is not serious at all this is not for the people you're promoting your game more you thought this was clever all of a sudden it's like a couple of geeks in a room you're like cutting this up in unreal engine and you think this is like you don't even do new mocap animation for this are you just reused reuse assets you didn't even put a new production storyboard in beyond this you need a quick you need a quick turnaround on it you got to reuse those assets yeah so they didn't even spend extra

income to fight you know the fight of the decade right here right it's it was it was silly dude i was um i was laughing like you were and i was mostly embarrassed and what's more even more embarrassing is that you know epic is going to fold right they're going to grovel back you're going to see fortnite it's too much of a money maker on the app store to suddenly give up 70 million for 30 million is how i see it right and that's the the the the lowest number we got here it's probably way more than that to give up 70 to 430 that sounds like a bad deal right it's like keep your 70 and send a message and say people play on the switch or pc when you have the chance or go on the website it seems to me it seems more complete anyway right it seems more proactive to

be like hey there's another way to buy these things like just like every other store and that was perfectly fine just do that but to march into one someone else's store and tell them how to do business because they're doing it wrong a two trillion dollar company you've been doing it wrong this whole time come on yeah it just like make it like i said yeah like i said for a job if it was a much smaller company i would be in their corner like i was kind of in the hay at the corner i was like yeah like you know like i do think that 30 is kind of ridiculous i do think these rules are kind of ridiculous i do it it stops the smaller guys from really innovating in areas where there needs to be innovation right exactly i also understand from i also understand from apple's standpoint where safety and security of their platform like android is a more open platform it's also the platform where all the hackers and the thieves are oh yeah because yeah

let's talk about that real quick exactly like that's like security that's secure yeah dude yeah i'm totally down i'm totally down with that like like i think apple should totally do that um but is it worth 30 i don't know yeah of course i mean it's not 30 percent we all know that it's like they could do it way less and still earn lots of money i think we're in agreement the apple ain't hurting if they like get five percent off of it but we we're basically just saying that uh apple doesn't have to i mean they just don't need to there's no reason for them to do it there's no competitors there's no other like the simple fact that you know games do better on the ios than the android not by a little by like the last data i saw like over 100 of um revenue stream like they earn over 100 more at the same game on the ios

because android is freaking pirate bay dude like people can yeah that number is probably only in the us one right and you're right and that's also because android is pirate bay that's why uh more and more mobile games are free to play and micro transaction basis because it's like go ahead pirate the hell out of this if you want but you still got to pay us our money right exactly so that to me is that type of response i respect it's like here's here's a hard place between a rock uh and and in a hard place i guess and then like figure your way out right you know you don't complain to the rock right just figure out your own path is what i'm trying to say i guess but like the whole idea of complaining have never sat well with me like it just never seems to be a solution and i feel like this is a whole complaint fest

and i i kind of expected more from epic like you guys have enough money to fight this in a better way like exactly just how i took two minutes to think of a better response than a fortnight movie right it's like hey if you want to make this a coalition of the people then get the [ __ ] people to share their stories of why 30 really hurts them like unreal developers specifically and say why this can be better for the industry why innovative things can be made better uh you can pull in all these other companies that had public fights with apple before over the 30 like spotify microsoft and plan ahead that way instead of like hey look at our execution we had hundreds of documents ready to go to court about how this sucks it's like dude that's not preparing i would i would say they they did that with steam right but i think the reason why it's different with steam is because pc's open platform so they did that with

steam and they just opened their thing right in the case of apple like they could do that with apple but they still have to wait for apple to cave to do the thing right because hey man if there's only two players in in this thing and you're not gonna make your own epic phone right or you're just still praying for microsoft to come out with their stupid dual screen thing that you saw did you see that so dumb summer that's your answer is 20 20 this is your answer then you have to just play nice with google for me to hear that they picked a fight with the only two phone makers they was like are investors over there really happy with the decision this is like i can't like yes your tencent is laughing but i can't at that table it's not just 10 cent right i think i'll i feel like a lot of people are pissed off about this right now like their 70 million dollar cushion every month that they can count on is gone dude they have to be people also like also

like i don't think it's gonna affect epic's valuation either quite frankly yeah they're losing out somebody right now epic valuation is ridiculous right it's like right out it's off building chain and they just got recent recent round of funding and like they're they're doing fine they're gonna be their money is great right yeah yeah at least for right now they're going to be fine i don't know man right now they're fine pc all this stuff is fun but to ignore the mobile market as a game developer i think is a huge mistake when mobile clearly shows that it's the future of industry right to be okay with not being a part of the future in the industry uh they're gonna be you know what's gonna happen dude it's gonna be other companies machine games or museums though making their own fortnight and they're just going to be bro if there's no fortnight on the phones

for the next year and a half there's going to be another coffee because people need their fix and people don't care dude sure like there should be somebody who's gonna fill a gap i don't know if it's gonna be machine zone i think you you're you're you've gone on a time machine with that one whoever is hot right now every two months is a new car uh i'm sure i'm sure there's yeah the hotness the hotness on what's the hotness on mobile right now i can't even i don't even know other than fortnite what's the hot game actually look at the play store real quick yeah you look on your iphone i look at my play store the hottest game right now top charts is i can paint let's stop grossing coin master for me pokemon go of course candy crush roblox roblox is pretty big right now oh robot roblox is up there yeah yeah uh top free top paid games top eight games on ios is uh minecraft heads up monopoly

you know you know what's funny is i think these are called numbers it's a lot of games that people are playing playing at home uh with their family because everybody's like covet style some monopoly and heads up for sure that's another thing dude that's another thing like i feel like this was the worst time that epic pulled this card like they're really missing out on the pandemic unless they're praying for another decade where there's another pandemic like this period of mobile gaming is on an all-time high right now especially free games and uh it's not something that they can replicate after this whole lawsuit thing is over all right i mean we're we're about an hour i i just want to ask for your final verdict how do you see this all playing out you know is this going to wrap up in 2020 is it bleeding in 21 what do you think uh is it is it the is it the next court case sometime in september september 24th or something like that yeah something 30th so it's gonna wrap up by then and

and like i i have a feeling the judge will probably just rule in favor of apple epic will go to them and be like please let's back on the store we're and then maybe apple goes maybe apple goes you know guys you you know you're right we were tripping back then so here here we'll only take 20. right you're dreaming dude maybe maybe maybe something like that will happen you never know do you think all this [ __ ] that apple's taken they're going to come back and say epic you're when they start their first response is saying no on real games ever on the app store you talk about pettiness dude my thinking is that yes epic will lose apple will win and i pray that epic walks away with dignity man if

you are committed to this then you better have a plan b outside of the apple ecosystem because if i see them groveling dude it's double the embarrassment by december fortnite will be back on the apple store oh wow before the end of the year that's your prediction hell yeah oh hell yeah dude yeah one way or the other oh man i'm a fighter man if you're you're committed to look like an idiot you look like an idiot i'll be very surprised man you know how much shouldn't be like epic has to eat you know what you'd be like you know what you know what you're right you're right i was tripping i was tripping back then you're right i'll just remove that option and we're back i'm sorry i'm sorry about that like like it

wouldn't be it would surprise me man it would surprise me oh that would hurt that would hurt me man like how can you walk in to the epic headquarters you know on on monday meetings right after you grovel publicly you know you have these skating emails saying it's for the people it will be public it will just show back up on the store and they would be like oh it's back okay cool like that's all that's gonna happen and they're gonna get tim what do you think and then like he ain't gonna say nothing like you know just keep moving like this this is too much yeah oh that burns dude i don't know that that's hurting me and it hasn't even happened yet like i'm putting myself in those shoes oh i don't think i can go back i think i doubled down on mistakes i think that's the type of person i am i'm finding out about that myself right

now yeah well fc don't want to do that you actually don't want to do that i don't think i think you're right though i think he has no choice i think this decision is way bigger than him i think so far through those like i can't imagine a whole committee behind tim sweeney like drafting those emails right i feel like it's very personal he made it personal right oh yeah and uh i think the company's bigger than him right now and eventually yeah they want their 100 million a month revenue stream even though you know epic is worth way more and doing fine 100 million is a good chunk it's a couple good cars for everybody with that one yeah everybody slap trump changed so change yeah all right well that that concludes it man i mean i i was able to get my thoughts out there i think we're uh in agreement that this is uh funny and hilarious and um it was entertaining at the very least yeah i'm just i'm just i'm just here

with my popcorn man just just just waiting to see how it all holds that's all that is i will say there's a good amount of people that think somehow that epic is going to win this one which um i don't know it's it's very game of thrones no not game of thrones i guess other happy ending movies where of some reason i'll say this i'll say this if epic wins like in the court case or whatever if epic actually wins that court case that would be a win for a lot of developers not makers like it really would be oh yeah sure straight up straight up um so like so that'd be cool but yeah i don't think they will win yeah i don't think so either well that concludes this week's episode epic versus apple uh we we had to bypass other topics at some point we'll probably circle back i mean i'm sure ubisoft will uh not suddenly stop me too stuff so

and i wish we had time to talk about it but it's yeah i hope so all right at the very least it sounds like very it's very sad it's very very sad perfect all right next time i'll shelve it for next time i want to thank you for your time ray i want to see you guys and see you guys next month for a roundtable news episode [Music] you