Does Game Marketing Even Matter In 2025? — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 023

Long story short, you made Cultic. Cultic is amazing. You're working on Cultter Cultic Chapter 2 right now. And then you also made a game called Bone Bone Rooms, right? And you released that. Was that last week? Um yeah, on the 30th of October. How did that go? Oh, it wasn't bad considering like it kind of came out of nowhere. Um, it was just like a it was kind of like a silly prototype that I put together for last Halloween in a week and then uh I thought it was fun enough that I was like maybe I should flush this out and give it like an actual Steam release. Um, and so just like at the beginning of October I finally opened it back up and started working on it. Um, so it was like maybe just like about a month of really pushing it on social media. Um, but I mean it launched with like 1,400 wish lists. Um, and it was it was a pretty slow launch. So, it's like that's kind of to be expected, but it I don't know when you have like like I've got uh you know, you when you've sold like nearly 100,000 units of a of a game that

is overwhelmingly positive on Steam, you would expect like okay, so I've got like a little bit of you know, maybe like a little bit of of a following like people who would be excited that I've released something new and then, you know, like 25,000 followers on Twitter, which isn't like an insane amount, but for me, like that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Um and then you and then you tweet that you're like, "Hey, I'm I'm launching this new game and it's like a dollar." Um and it gets like 300 likes in 2 days. Um which every time every time I say this, I don't mean it to be like, "I made a tweet. It should be viral." But it's like with that kind with that kind of following, you would expect a little more than that from like a launch. So it was just kind of disappointing. And I don't and I don't think it's like a statement about the quality of the game or about, you know, like my community. I think that like social media is just it's so hard to use for gamedev right now. Um espec especially Twitter. Um the algorithm is just so busted and it doesn't help that we're you know that we were like in the in the the literally like the thick of of of election season too. So so everything's going to be everything's kind of tilted towards you know election stuff, politics ads. Um

so and so and also launching during a during a Halloween festival um or during a Steam festival when you don't get as much visibility. So I recognized there were a lot of factors working against me. Um I I don't I guess I was just hoping for um a little more a little more traction on it because I you know the game I think the game's fun. Um but I do understand um you know that it's not like I put a giant marketing spend behind the game. I didn't do like you know this giant ad campaign for it. You know it didn't have like years of of time to build up a following. It was just a very quick thing. Um, but that being said, um, I do recognize that it is a multiplayer game and building a multiplayer following and trying to market a multiplayer game is a lot different than single player. Um, because if you don't have a player base, then people who buy the game have nobody to play it with unless they have, you know, a bunch of friends they can give the game to. Um, and it also sucked cuz I was really banking on selling multiacks of the game. Um, so people could, you know, for like $5 they could get like four, five, six, whatever

copies of the game. Um, and I didn't realize until like the day before launch that Steam got did away with those. You can't do those anymore. Um, and apparently they did it a long time ago. Like back when they made Interesting. That's so that people play the multiplay a multiplayer game. You you do multiacks so that you have friends to play with. Point. Yeah. Yeah. Like like instead of, you know, instead of like having to buy four separate games and then gift them to people. You used to be able to do multiacks on Steam. And I guess around the time that they made refunds like a thing, they got rid of those. Um, and I didn't know that. So I was like I was Oh yeah. people just like spend five bucks, they'll get four copies of the game and then they'll be able to play it with their friends. Um, and then they got they got rid of that which sucks. I did not realize that. Right. Right. Well, you know, it's it's the weirdest feeling, and I know the feeling of having success in the past and seeing just seeing the world embrace your art style and your sensibilities with gameplay. And you get this, like for me, I'll just

speak for me, like with my previous games, I got this huge rush of like pride and and probably a little bit of ego. And then when you create something again, you kind of feel like this, it's natural to feel like this sense like, oh, it this will work too. Yeah. And then when it doesn't, it can be really really like disorienting. Did Did you feel were you were you angry? Were you did you feel like you it was just a fluke or did you feel like you yourself had failed in some way? Um, I mean it's definitely I wouldn't say I was like angry about it because like given everything that we know about like the game the games market right now, you know, like how saturated it is and knowing how bad of a time October is to release cuz it's such a busy schedule. Like all of all the game the way that it went made total sense when you consider all the factors around it. Like you know this is like if you put it on paper if you you know if I were to like lay this out like hey I'm going to I'm going to start marketing this game and then release it a month later and like show that to you know like a marketing team

they'd be like that's dumb. So like all you know all of the factors made sense as to why this didn't work out but it it is still kind of like you know because you see you see games explode all the time of just like because and the thing is like Bone Rooms is is like it's like a clip factory like there it's it's such a goofy like crazy game that it's you know every time we had a play testing session for it we always came away with all of these hilarious clips and you know in my mind I was like yeah you know people will they'll have a great time with their friends and they'll share these clips and that will help you know that will help the growth of the game. Um, and and not to say that can't still happen. Um, and uh, it's just it's hard to talk about because yes, it is frustrating, but I also feel like anytime I talk about it, I feel like I'm being very selfish of like, no, it's it's my game. It should have done it should have done great. Um, and and in to be fair, like everybody for the most part who has played it, like all of most of the reviews are are are positive and like everybody who's played it has had like a great time with it. So, the quality of the game, I don't think, is is really in question. And I think it's just like it's just like a like a attraction and

discovery thing. Like it it was so hard to get bone rooms discovered. Um and a lot of that again was because of the timing and the short marketing cycle, but just like you know, I don't know. It's um when I first started working on Cultic, it was so easy to grow on Twitter because it was like, you know, just post things that are interesting to people um and that are that are digestible in short form um and and it was easy to grow slowly from that. And that just it doesn't work anymore. Um, like the only like the only time I get, you know, big big tweets anymore is if I do something like akin to engagement bait. Um, which I which I hate doing. So, tell me about engagement bait. What do you mean? Um, something that's designed to get replies. Um, I see. Because that's what the algorithm is all about right now is replies, right? Um and so and so like I did I did that tweet um gosh it was a few months ago now where you know I did my classic I rotated something on the wrong axis. Um, and I posted this this clip about it and I was just like, "Hey, like reply, you know, share your

your funniest bugs in your games that you're working on." And that was like that was like like a almost 100k likes, like like500 replies. And it was awesome. Like it was great seeing all these people's games and all of their funny little bugs and like you know for game it it was kind of like a gamedev bait tweet because like everybody can relate to it. I can relate to like all of these funny little bugs that I'm seeing. But then the next day you post something like, "Hey, here's this really cool thing I made for Cultic." and it's like 60 likes and it gets no traction at all. And it's and it's just weird cuz it's not, you know, and again this I this isn't me trying to say like everybody should care about this thing I'm making. But when you have 25,000 followers that I feel like I built honestly, um you know, like I anytime anytime I see a bot has followed me, I immediately block them. Um you know, I don't I don't do like giveaways or or like big engagement bait stuff because I don't want to build like an artificial following that way. No. Um, and so it's just weird to have that like theoretically there should be 25,000 people seeing this thing that you've posted. Um, and then to only get

like 60 engagements on it and and it's like the, you know, like the easiest form of engagement, too. Just just a like, just a little click. Um, and then like I was talking to a lot of my friends about my about Brooms and like none of them knew it was out. They were like, "Oh, did that come out?" I'm like, "Yeah, I did. I didn't know." Yeah. Like I did this big I did like this big I did, you know, like there was a big uh release trailer or release date announcement trailer. Um, there was like like buildup tweets to it. There was a, you know, there was an announcement about the launch. There was a reminder about the launch. And it's just like, you know, people that follow me and people who like know me personally like just didn't see it. Um, it it just didn't come across their feet. And again, like you know, it's it was a busy time of year. Election was going on. It's easy for stuff to get buried. I get that. But it's still just like I don't know. It blew my mind that so many people just like didn't know. And you know, and I don't know. I I don't know how big how much of that is a failure on my part for like marketing wrong and how much of it is just like being able being unable to overcome this obstacle that is Twitter's algorithm

being so messed up right now. Right. Well, I for me I've never gotten good traction on Twitter. I've just never really received like you and I probably sound like complete uh brats right now because you know we've got I've got somewhere around 20,000 followers which I think a lot of people listening would kill for and I I completely understand that. However, when you're right, when you have 20,000 followers, you're like, "Wow, this is like a huge asset, right? For me, I've never found it to be an asset on Twitter." Um, because Twitter for Twitter has for me, I've always found Twitter is the place where people get news and they fight. Uh, that's about it. And I've never really found it to be a wonderful place to get people to enjoy entertaining content and then convert into a sale. I've never found that to be true. Um, YouTube is a phenomenal place for me. Like for me, it

is a phenomenal place to convert to a sale. If if at the end of the day, that's what marketing is for, which it's to convert fans into into um customers. That's at least a big part of what YouTube most YouTubers who have a who run their businesses or I'm sorry, most YouTubers are business owners, whether people like it or not, you know, that's what a lot of YouTubers including myself. It's one of the primary drivers of our content and that's okay and shouldn't be people shouldn't be ashamed of it. But YouTube, if if if you're running a business on YouTube, it's a great place to convert to customers. That's why I've always found that all of my efforts like my games are not nearly as um I they're they're not nearly as strong on the gameplay side as your games and they don't they're not as replayable. So I point being they're not as sellable. I don't think my games are as sellable as your games. Um, but I've found that I

can increase the sales of a game significantly by focusing pretty much all of my effort and energy on getting YouTubers to play the game as opposed to rely on Twitter at all. Like I just Instagram and Twitter I do not even think about. Um, so that's just my strategy is just getting YouTubers to play. So what I do before a launch of a game and this is my plan for 2025. I don't know what your plan. I would love to hear your plan of of kind of what you want to do in the future. But like what I'm going to plan on doing is if I don't have 10 to 20,000 wish lists on my game, I'm not going to release it. I'm just not. And so the way I'm going to get those wish lists is just using YouTube. Now I can create my own content or I can put give the demo to to let's players and I can put them in the game. So an example would be with bone bone rooms. You could have a cheat code menu and you could type in uh you

know septic eye and then all of the characters would turn green and have a little Jack Septic Eye logo on their vest or on their their orange suits. Then what that does is that incentivizes Jack Septic Eye to play the game, right? And then you build your multiplayer base from there and your wish list base from there. So that is what I that's my approach when it comes to social media. My approach has always been find the big YouTubers and build the audience there. So the top of the funnel is essentially YouTube uh not not Twitter because I just you're right like I I don't really have a problem personally with Twitter. Um right now I' I've been been enjoying it. I'm I'm not really looking at the algorithm very much because I never really relied on it. Um but did did do you think you'll have a different strategy for your next game? Um I don't think I I don't think so. And I mean like it's kind of funny because we talked about this last time um we had our u had this podcast about um like our our different approaches and our different positions on like the spectrum of of game development um from like from

art to business like you know if if art if pure art is on one side and pure business is on the other. Um and so like like I recognize um objectively that like you know getting getting big names to play your game is is a is a great way to get people to buy it. Um, but for me that I don't know it it feels like a dishonest approach to me personally. Um, just because like so much of game dev for me, like granted I do make money from it. I love that I have made a career out of it and that I get to do it full-time and that isn't lost on me, but it's it's much more about the the art of gamedev and the passion for it and the community around it for me. So like that's what like Twitter is so important to me because Twitter is um even though you know it's it's not as good as it once was, it is still very much a community focused place, you know, like I've got all these people I follow and I can engage with and and it's more about like building a following than trying to like it's it's about building a following of people who care about what I'm working

on and care about me as a person than customers who will buy something of mine. Um obviously there's overlap between the two. Um well there is because I mean and you know it's it's a it's a age-old debate you know which is like when somebody gives you their money um for a game is it are you stealing the money are you taking the money are you tricking them into giving you their money or did they truly find value in it right and actually feel like it was an even trade. Yeah. My opinion is if Jack Septic Guy plays the game, that's awesome because it just all that means I'm not arguing with you. I'm just telling you my perspective. No, that's fine. Uh when Jack Septic Guy plays the game and he gets to wear a green outfit and I've incentivized him to play the game, I see nothing wrong with it because at the end of the day, all we're doing is we're just shouting out the the this game to a broader audience that would not have known. And so they're lucky,

the people watching that video, they're now lucky and they are receiving value from you because this game is great. It's like it's like why would you not want to share this great game with as many people as possible and if they convert to customers, it's not like you forced them to convert to customers. They just converted to customers because they found value in it and they they wanted to support you. So I mean it's it's kind of like a viral tweet, right? a viral tweet, the algorithm did the work for you. Is that gross? No. Okay. But if Jack Septic Eye does the work for you and and reaches his own base, it's almost the same thing. It's just not algorithmic. It's personal. Well, see, in my in my in my experience, um first of all, which has been which was actually really surprising for me as like a learning point, uh Twitch streams rarely convert to sales for me. Um, I would say that like out of everything out of everything that's ever happened

in terms of Cultic's exposure, Twitch streams have been like the least like have had the least conversion. Um, which which makes sense from the aspect of like, you know, people aren't here to get game recommendations. They're there to just like be entertained, have background noise, whatever. For example, um, uh, Cultic was on AGDG or AGDQ, sorry. um the speedrunning um live stream the year that it came out and it had like there were 65,000 people watching um Cultic be streamed and I you there was not even a blip on the sales chart um wish list uh no nothing was it was it was like a flatline there there was like nothing from that day um wow which I mean which is fine like it was still awesome to even be on AGQ like that was wild um it was great and like people in the chat were loving the run the speed did a great job. Um, but it was just surprising that I, you know, it was surely like, oh, all these, you know, 65,000 people. You would think that like even if you even if you convert, you know, like a percentage of

those, you should see a bump. But, um, but the other thing is that like when I want people to engage with my game who are interested in it, not people that I that have been like paid or incentivized to engage with it. So, like your your your example of like, oh, you know, I give Jack Septic Eye a his own special suit. like that to me isn't appealing because like I I don't think that he is more valuable than another person playing my game. Like when Bone Rooms came out, um there was a I should remember who it was that was playing it. Uh sorry, I'm looking to make sure I get it right. Yeah. So, uh Foren, who I had no idea who that was until until the stream, played Bone Rooms after it came out. It just he was just doing like a you let's download random games off of Steam and play them. And he had like 9,000 people watching. So, like Bone Rooms comes out. Um, and then like 30 minutes later, I check Twitch. I'm like, "I have anybody's playing." And there's like 9,000 people watching Bone Rooms. I was like, "What the hell?" Um, and I mean like obviously, you know, like I

appreciate that he picked it up and played it and that yes, there was exposure, but it didn't convert to anything in terms of in terms of metrics and and he engaged with the game in such a um such an apathetic way like like he doesn't, you know, like he doesn't he doesn't know who I am. He doesn't he didn't know what Bone and Rose prior to this moment. He doesn't care about the game. He's using it as a as a way to just have content for himself, which is fine, but like that's not valuable to me. And like he's he's playing the game just like complaining about stuff he doesn't understand in it and just like, you know, like complaining he doesn't get what the point of the game is and and he's just like having and he just like allowed random people from his audience to join his lobby. And so you've got people just like like mic spam and just like AFKing and like not talking to each other, not working together, not, you know, not and so like none of them are playing the game like as it's supposed to be played, none of them are getting value out of it. And so it's like you've got this stream of basically somebody making a mockery of your game. Um and and so and so from from a business

standpoint, like if I were if I were sitting next to you on the more business side of the game spectrum, this is all value, right? All you see is like this is eyes on the game, you know? It's it's people seeing it. It's exposure. But for me, from a a personal, committed, passionate point, it's like, you know, it's like a bunch of people are just like making fun of your game. You know, it's like it's like you it's it's like you cook this delicious meal and and then you you're like, "Oh my god, I'm so proud of this recipe that I made." And and then some gigantic influencer makes your meal and then pours an entire bottle of ketchup on top. It's just like, you know, like like you they've taken this thing that you're proud of and and and they're and they're making a mockery of it. Um it's it's such an interesting perspective and I love that's why I'm so glad we're friends because you and I I mean we we see things so differently so often. Um and even from like game design, which I've learned a ton of stuff from you, by the way, Jason, with game design, and I appreciate it so much. Um because you're a very you're a

very principled you're definitely a pioneer like there's there's there's this I don't know I can't remember what the book is called but there's certain personality types and there's pioneers and then there's also guardians and personal like uh pioneers are just like let's go shoot from the hip let's make this thing happen and that's you you know you you've you've pioneered and created cultic and bone rooms but I see you're also similar to similar to a guardian too because you are very protective of how things should be done um from like like from a principled perspective like gamedev is almost this um well I wouldn't say it's religious but it's it's something like that to you where it's so precious and valuable to you sacred sacred and I don't see it as sacred I see it as for me it's a business right you know I've got I've got three kids I just had my third kid I've got a mortgage I've got a wife and I'm like and I've got contracts with publishers.

I'm like, yes, I will be as sacred as I can, but I'm going to make this thing pop. I'm going to do everything I can to make this thing pop because at the end of the day, hey, if more people play my game, that hopefully that means they got more I've made given more value to people in their lives. So, if I can get 100,000 people to buy this game, the sleazy way to look at it is go, "Yay, I got a 100,000 people to give me their money." But you can flip that and you can go, "Well, They found it valuable though and hopefully a 100,000 people or 200 whatever I said have been that value has been added to their lives. Right now when it comes to the social media sort of uh the marketing discussion we were having where it's like I don't want someone to play this game who's going to crap all over this game. Right. I agree with you there. I think that I don't even you said maybe maybe that's a good business decision but it's not a good personal decision. I don't even know if that's a good business decision. I would

never want to mark like uh convince anyone to play my game who is not a good fit. So like the the reason why I bring up the incentivizing YouTubers to play your game and the reason I'm a big proponent of that is because what you do is you find a hundred YouTubers. This is how I do it. you find a hundred YouTubers who have played similar games and like similar games. The problem is is that everybody listening right now, good luck getting any of these YouTubers attention. And so, yes, it might seem uh sleazy or something. I don't know what the word is or what you're thinking, but like what I'm doing is I'm kind of fighting for the people listening right now who are like, "How do I get how do I get these people who have millions of subscribers to notice me?" some small unknown developer, but I think I have a good game. And so my approach has always been find a hundred YouTubers who like similar games. And

the way you get their attention is you incentivize them just a little bit. Give them a little a little bonus, a little meme in the game, right? Something in the game to catch their freaking attention so that you can finally get your game noticed. So that's that's my approach. And hopefully that jump starts the game, gets it onto the Steam front page, and then it kickstarts the algorithm on Steam. That's been my approach. Um, granted, you know, sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it does. And I will agree with you that YouTubers sometimes it doesn't convert to anything, any sales or wish list. I've seen both, right? Sometimes I've seen it, it actually does convert. For in particular, Jack Septic Guy, he's so he's so um what's the word? He's so positive when he plays indie games. He loves indie games. and when he plays them, he's so positive and he speaks so highly of the developers and he's respectful. That's good. And so, yeah, those are those are the kind of YouTubers that I reach out to, the ones I know are going to be

respectful of the game, you know? So, that's just my strategy, man. Um, but I do I do respect the purity in your mind about how you approach all this. I just just at the end of the day for me I'm just like how do I keep this how do I keep this business running and how do we how do we keep making games you know? Yeah. I mean, if if your goal is if your goal is to maximize the profit from your game and and like through any means necessary, then I don't think anybody would ever want to listen to not like nobody would ever want to listen to me for advice on that because like people you like especially for like people wondering how like why chapter 2 is taking so long is cuz like it's you know this isn't a this isn't like a like an like an 8 to five grind for me anymore. Like there's days like a game developer friend of mine wanted help with a project or you know like I'm writing I'm writing music for somebody for free or voice acting for free just to help another developer out or you know it's it's like that's I don't know it's cuz like the community and the and

the game development as as an art form is is so important to me that I don't know that's uh well a good question that I would I would hand to you and I'm giving you the ar I'm letting you win the argument here. My question to you is give someone if we gave you 50 years of making games. If you spent those 50 years being generous with your time and being uh principled with your craft, if that was one path or the other path is being hyperfocused on marketing, which one do you think would be more successful in the long run? Well, I mean, if you're like it's kind of like um you like billionaires don't get to be billionaires by being good people, you know, and it's kind of the same thing is is like if you're going if your goal is always to like make the most money possible, you're probably going to be skirting some morals here and there. Um and obviously there's obviously there's exceptions to that. This is not like, you know, but it's

like you I mean you look at look at like, you know, mobile games and games with like predatory microtransactions. they make boatloads of money. But and it's like if that's okay with you, like like like for example with Bone Rooms, I've had I've had several people tell me like, "Well, you should have just made the game free to play and then had like microtransactions." And I'm like that probably would have gotten more people in the door. I'm not denying that. But that's that I have zero interest in that being the way that I that I make my bread and butter because to me that's I don't know. It just isn't it just doesn't feel good to me. It doesn't mean it's like morally right or wrong, objectively right or wrong. It's just like in the art form of gamedev, I want I want my success to be made because people like organically discover what I'm working on and decide for themselves like, "Oh, this this looks really cool and then they pay for it." I don't I don't want I don't want there to be people coming in the door only because my game is free. I don't want that to be the reason that people get in the door. And again, if if you're looking at it from a business perspective, that's dumb, right? It's like, no, that would if you get the most

people in the door, that's the important thing. Um, and so that but that just doesn't appeal to me. And I and I especially don't I especially don't want like a Steam discussions board full of people complaining and telling me what I should do with the game who couldn't even be bothered to pay a dollar and a half for it. Like that's the other thing. It's uh the way my brain works is funnels and and you know if you can if the start of the funnel is a free demo if you get 200,000 people to play a free demo it'll it'll probably convert at a percentage one one to five like 1 to 5%. Maybe I mean that's that's how tons of digital businesses operate and that's actually what a wish list that's what wish lists are. It's a funnel. So that you that's why demos like David Whley's demo is why it is going to blow up because he he starts with a free demo. He brings in hundreds of thousands of wish lists and then they convert.

Right. Yeah. This is an argument against demos to be fair. Like Colt had a demo. I recognize the value of demos. I'm talking I'm talking about free content. Right. Right. Right. So, it's like it's like if if if um man, you know, it's just it's going to be a long it would be a long argument. I'm I'm the kind of person who I look at uh I look at I try and be balanced with the way I'm thinking about things because on one hand I've heard both you and Julian. Julian is uh he's the creator of Lens Island. He is so both of you guys are so like principled. It's like I'm gonna make a great game and people will show up, right? And if people don't show up then I guess the game didn't deserve it, right? Sure. And and the big question is this is a really good question for you. Do you think a great game can get buried? Oh yeah. It happens all the time.

There's I especially even just like in the boomer shooter scene, the retro shooter scene. Um, I've got friends and and you know, fellow developers who are making awesome games that I would say quality-wise are on par with, if not better, um, than Cultic that are that are struggling. Um, but the thing is like or was it the time they launched? The timing I mean the timing definitely is a part of it. Um, you know, like a lot I always I always like to say that a big part of why I think Cultic did well was timing. Um, I I started working on it at a time where the indie shooter scene was still relatively small and expanding where like, you know, you had like like Dusk and Ion Fury were like your two big ones. Um, yeah. And then and then I got the game out as fast as humanly possible because I saw like well a I was running out of money, but but b uh I saw how big the scene was getting and that you know you had all these games like that I that that are people developing right alongside like like forgive me father and like all of all of these games that are that look awesome. They have like whole teams

behind them and I'm like crap I have to get my game out the door. Um, so like if I were to have released Cultic Chapter 1 today and had started marketing it a year ago rather than in 2020, um, I, you know, I I bet it probably wouldn't have done nearly as well as it did. Um, so but go ahead. I would say the other thing is you're talking about like, um, you know, like if if you if you you make a great game, you hope people will show up and if they don't, then that's just it. Um, that's I mean that's kind of how I feel like I I would rather have to quit gamedev and go back to it being a hobby and doing something else full-time than to start doing like you know like microtransactions and stuff like that. Like it I would rather I would rather go back to doing something else full-time and keep this as as a hobby than than have to like violate what I would consider like my principles on game development. But and that's just a personal thing. Like this isn't me trying to say like if you if you have microtransactions you suck. Like that's not at all what I'm what I'm saying. Well, I think most people, including myself, would all I I think we all

agree, you know, but you've you've just dropped like the most morally um sinister marketing tools out there, but like there's other stuff. There's other stuff like incentivizing YouTubers to play a game or paying YouTubers to play a game, you know? It's like there's it's I wouldn't say it's immoral. It I can understand why it would feel gross. Yeah. I don't think it's immoral either. It's it's just it's a business. Yeah. It's just kind of gross or it's just not I guess it's not really part of and it's not it's not something I love either. It's like when I'm when I'm putting my kids to bed and when I'm this is what happens with me every night. I'm putting my kids to bed and then I'm hanging out with my wife. There's a a switch that flips every night which turns me into it at least turns on half of my half of my brain turns into how do I keep them safe? How do I keep my business afloat? How do I stay? How do I survive in in in difficult times? Mh. And so there's this sort of um fight orflight mechanism that will cause me to

be more business-minded. And you, you know, you may have noticed that the older people get, the longer they stay in their business, the the easier it is for them to justify sketchy decisions, right? um because they they just want to build their business and they want to grow and they've got a family and they they just become more more interested in staying in in surviving than the integrity of a project, right? And so I really really do I know I know that about myself that it it I'm at risk of becoming that way just because we'll probably have more kids, you know, and I'll just become more and more of a dad and it's like that's the only thing on my mind, you know, is keeping everyone happy and safe and financially secure. So I understand that it's a threat. Um, and I that's why I love talking to people like you. And Julian is another person like this at Flow Studio. It's like I love keeping you guys in my um in

my circle because you you do ground me and keep me thinking more about the integrity of a project. And I'll I'll say this for 2025. For me, and I want to talk to you about 2025 and what it looks like for you. I do want to go back to the basics where I do what I do what I'm best at. Um I have a super small budget. Um I make small personal tight games that have my voice in them. And I will admit for the last three years I've been so stressed out about making this business grow and being profitable, signing deals, blah blah blah. Is the game going to return on its investment? How are the wish list? Blah blah blah blah blah. All that stuff that just frankly killed me. Like, dude, my body was like, it felt like it was broken. My stomach was always upset because of this stress of trying to keep this game, Twisted Tower,

keep it alive and keep it funded and keep it and make sure that it it's a viral game when we when I launch it. And it's like I wish I could have just if I could if I could go back in time I would just say I just want to make a great game and I don't want to worry about anything else. So there's a part all I'm saying is there's a part of me that's like Jason is absolutely right. But I I think it's a balance of of being a businessminded person and creatively uh having creative integrity, you know. So, well, I mean, like, and again, there's a while while while there's definitely a gap in like where um where we land on that spectrum, there's also a gap, I think, without going into specifics in in how financially successful we are in in game development. But that's the thing is like, you know, I don't I don't have a family like, you know, we live like very comfortably within our means. And this is not this is not like a comparison of us two. I'm just saying like um like like I like I don't have like big goals of like you know being being

wealthy and super successful and you know like super famous. I just like I like making games. I I did I've done it as a hobby for as long as I can think and the fact that Cultic blew up at all was like a complete fluke. Uh like like it was completely unexpected. Um, and and one thing I've been really concerned about is that Cultic would be like my only successful game. Like because of the timing and because of, you know, it kind of being on the like like Cultic's part of a fad as far as I'm concerned. Like I like I love I love retro shooters and I love, you know, obviously I love Cultic, but like, you know, I'm not I'm not blind to the fact that a lot of its traction is because, you know, retro shooters are having a revival. just like if I had been making a a Minecraft clone in 2011, you know. Um I I think that you're not giving yourself enough credit. I've I've considered you, Jason, to be one of the smartest game designers I know. I would say you're probably the smartest game designer. By designer, I mean you you have an understanding of how to make a

good game that that is challenging and it's balanced and it incentivizes the player and gives them rewards. You came in and you gave us so much like Filipe and I learned so much from you in the last year like crazy amounts when it comes to game design. And I think sure the pixel art is well I mean it's the you're right. I think it's like the the sugary part of the game, the thing that gets people in the door. Right. But I think they wouldn't stick around very long if it didn't have good design. Right. Right. Yeah. But I mean I don't know that I I've kind of been trying to tell myself something similar. I was like no like you know Cultix really wasn't a wasn't a fluke. But then you know Bone Rooms comes out to to basically nothing. Um, and and again again again I every time I talk about this I feel like I'm being I'm sounding like so entitled and I really hope that um people understand like I I get that

all the decisions I made marketing wise on it like the fact that I'm rushing it. I'm releasing it at Halloween. I'm not putting money and ad spend behind it. It makes sense that it didn't get much traction. But it was just kind of like you know you just kind of expect more. And this I guess this just brought me back down to earth. And so now, so now talking about 2025 plans, I had to think about like, well, what do I want to do for my next game? Because, you know, I grew Cultic from nothing on on Twitter, just like, you know, just talking about the game and showing stuff off and that worked. And maybe and maybe that was just because the pixel art and the the color palette was was unique enough that it it stopped people and they wanted to look at it. Um, and and maybe that's just not going to work for my next project. And so, um, I don't really know what my plan is cuz right now it's to work on chapter 2. And of course, chapter 2 is still with with 3D Realms. And so, um, I I don't know what marketing is going to look like for that. Um, there hasn't really been, um, any any marketing from the publisher side, um, since 3D Realms Live stopped.

Um, yeah, I'm not sure if that's going to ramp back up or not. My plan is to just keep doing what I do. Um, I uh I I've kicked off I've tried to ramp up um posts on Steam because there's a lot of people that have left Twitter um and are relying on Steam for news about the game now. So, I've been trying to do post my dev logs on there and little updates on there and I and I hope people appreciate that. Um and um but like I'm just going to keep doing what I do because I don't I don't have the time to switch it up right now. Um I wouldn't switch it up. Why Why do you feel like Let me ask you this. Why do you feel like it's a bad thing that the pixel art and the color palette was what initially made the game successful? Because my next game won't be like that. Um my I I don't plan to make another retro shooter. Um and so is there a reason why? Uh because I'm not like I'm not like a I'm not like a gigantic retro shooter like guy. Um I I played you know I played Doom and all the Build Engine games when I was a kid and so that's you know I've got a soft spot for them. Um

there's a lot of nostalgia there for me and you know and Cultic's a game that I've wanted to make for a long time. So it is you know like retro shooters do have a special nostalgic place for me. Um but like the genre in my opinion has steered so hard towards these like like crazy fast crazy hard Doom Eternal whatever uh style games. And that doesn't mesh with me at all. Like I don't like Doom Eternal. I'm a Doom 2016 guy. Um, and so like you know it would be one thing if if the you know if the if the whole genre had kind of stayed relatively niche and um and and had kind of stuck to um you know what made what made those games so special which you know I think like when Dusk first came out um it it was so important because it represented a return to the basics you know in at at a time when most games on the market were you know Call of Duty and like Last of Us and all, you know, they're all like big story focused games. Um, and then

you're like, "No, we're just going to go back to Shotgun, you know, like that's we're going back to Shotgun." Um, and and I don't know, and this is again, this is just another personal thing. I'm not saying that Doom Eternal is a bad game or that any of the games emulating that crazy fast style are bad because that's clearly not true because the players love them. Sure. Um, it's but it's just like for me personally, um, that's not a goal of mine and that's not the kind of games that I play. So, um I think that I I just I don't really think I have a place in the retro shooter scene after Cultic because um because I don't want to make Cultic again, you know, I don't want to make the same thing again. Um and I also don't want to make the kinds of games that are that have mass appeal right now. Um and so and and that's fine, you know, like I have tons of game ideas I want to work on. Um I'm not giving up on game development, but my next game isn't going to be um a pixel art game. Um, and so it's just going to be going back to um, kind of my artistic style, which is a little more cartoony, um, which hasn't

really ever caught people's eye in the past. And so I'm recognizing that as a challenge I'm going to face, like, you know, if I if I'm going to continue marketing on this, um, this avenue of just catching people's eye on Twitter. Yeah. Um, I I have to figure something else out. Uh well that is I what's so interesting about this conversation is I think that that's what a lot of people listening right now they they are exactly in your shoes which is like wait wait wait wait wait it's like the question I I've had this happen to me before in fact this happened this year and I'm 10 years into gamedev I what happened to me this year was wait what am I good at again like what what are my fores I completely lost sight of what my forte fores are. And so I've got a list. I'll write down mine right now. So Thomas's fores cuz this is so important because I actually met with one of my mentors yesterday to try and figure out, okay, how do I approach gamedev in 2025 when it's harder to it's harder to come by money. It's not impossible to find money with publishers. There's money. There's

plenty of money flying around. It's just not as plentiful. That's okay. So you might have to make a game that's smaller and you might have to make a game that's way more focused. And I see Cultic as a very focused game. It's a game that it hits all of the things that you're good at and it's only doing that. There's no fluff. It's all every strength Jason has was put into Cultic and there's no weakness like from my perspective. So, when it comes to me, I've realized for 2025 and then I want to see if you're interested in in listing out your forte. For me, my forte is um mood, story, music, uh and then uh minimalism, minimalistic art. Th those are my four fortees. And if I would if I ever make a game again, I'm probably only ever going to focus on those four things. I'll I'll dip into

other things and I'll try them. and I've done that. But I found that whenever you dip into something that's not your forte, don't do it on a commercial game. Do it on the side and figure it out on the side first before you put it into your game. So, for example, me making a first-person shooter. It's not really my forte yet. We spent three years on this thing. Mhm. Now, I think it's going to turn out well, but it was a painful, expensive process trying to pigeon hole a some something I have no experience with and juxtapose it next to all of my other fores. And what it did was, at least for the first two years of development, it was kind of a cancer for the game. It's like the game could have been awesome, but it it I decided it was going to be a first-person shooter. And so it became this huge painful process of trying to work around a flaw in my own skill set.

And so for you, is there is there like what is it about your about Cultic or what can we draw from Cultic that was your forte? You know what I mean? What what did you what did you what did you do? so well in cultic that's outside of it being a retro shooter like what made it special that is in like that is that is you that you were born with like something that's deep inside of you. Um is there anything I don't know I mean I'm not I'm not usually very good at uh at talking myself up. Um I don't know. No, I I I think that the I think the design I think that like the conciseness and the and the cleanliness of the design um you know like like just Yeah. Well like like like the utilitarian design of of the arsenal for example where like pretty much every weapon has its place in its role and as soon as the roles are filled the arsenal design stops. Um and that was just a big goal for the game is like I wanted to be clean. That was why like the ability system got cut is cuz it was it was it

was fluff you know it was just it was gimmicky stuff that that that um polluted the game's design. Um, but I think more so like cultic's focus I think more so comes from the stuff that I'm not good at which is like um you know like story story storyw writing for one thing you know it's not not really something I'm familiar with. Um and then like technical complexity from like from like a code standpoint um like I'm I'm very much like like a C minus grade coder like uh I'm my coding is my coding is self-taught. It's very basic. Um, and so like I don't I don't tackle like technically mechanically complex things like the quick save system in Cultic is probably about the biggest technical achievement in that game. Um, and then but then you've got, you know, like people I know like um like Ben, the guy who the frog monster developer who just like I'm just going to make my own engine. Like that blows my mind. It couldn't it could it could not be me. Oh man, that's about that's like the most pure game dev out there. Yeah.

You know, just doing everything from scratch. But but you were talking about how Twisted Tower was like your your foray into first person development, something you're not used to. And that's kind of what's kind of softened the blow for Bone Rooms being a bit of a flop. Um is the fact that that's kind of what it was for me. Um cuz a it was um it was an it was like me learning how to do like physically based rendering like you know like Cultic's all flat shaded pixel art crunch down textures. So before bone rooms, I had never done messed with like specular metallics, like anything like that, normal mapping. Um, and so Bone Rooms was a learning exercise for me in doing more modern texturing and shading. Um, which I'm still not particularly good at. Um, but it was a learning experience. And I'd never done like real online uh multiplayer before. Like like yes, I made Graveyard Shift 2, but like Graveyard Shift 2 was like a like a tutorial baby. like it was like like following a tutorial and then like trying to twist that into something that was barely playable. Um and and and it

is I mean Graveyard Shift 2 was broken. Um yeah, and so Bone Rooms was was the first time I was like I'm going to make like actual like an actual online game with like functioning lobbies and you know like voice chat and like all the stuff I'd never done before. And so you know um it was like I'm going to do this with a really small game. Um, and so that's what Great Bonus was great for is that even regardless of the fact that it, you know, it wasn't it wasn't really, you know, it wasn't successful. It didn't really blow up. It didn't really make any money or anything like that. I did learn a ton from working on it. And and those lessons, you know, I will get to carry forward into my next project. So, like, I don't regret making Bone Rooms. Like, I like I I I had a blast making it. I had so much fun testing it um with the people from my Discord. Um, it it was it's it was such a blast to work on. Um, and and and and in in a way it's kind of nice that it didn't really go anywhere because that means that I don't have to split my time between bowing rooms and cultic anymore. Um, so in a way it's nice that I just get to like cuz the

release was clean. It was, you know, it was relatively bug free and I get to put a nice bow on it and put it in my portfolio and then I get to get back on Cultic now. Whereas if if it had blown up then now this is something that I have to work on. Like it's something that I have to support. Um, and that would take time away from from my main project. So, it's kind of a it's kind of a it's kind of a double-edged sword there. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just to give you some encouragement, I um I'm one of your biggest fans and I think that when I when I think about what you're you're really gifted at, just it just comes naturally to you. I totally agree. concise design is definitely one of your biggest fores, but you mentioned physically based render uh rendering and I'm sitting here going I I'll speak for me. I won't tell you what I would do but or what you should do. I'll just tell you what I'm doing is I've realized that one of my gifts as an

artist is I call it precious modeling. It's creating precious cute little models that are representative of something more complex. So, it's it's almost like cozy games or like retro games, minimalistic minimalistic cute models. Mhm. That represent something bigger. And you do you did that all through Cultic. Everything is so uh rudimentary. That's a skill in and of itself to be able to distill something down into its cutest form. And I'm not saying cultic is cute, but I hope you know what I mean. Yeah, I know. It's it's just shrinking and simplifying. And so when you mention stuff like PBR, I'm like, I'm not going to do that for my next game, I don't think. Neither will I'm going to go back. I'm going to strip it out. What's that? I said neither will I. No, you and I are actually very similar in that respect where like my I have this I have a a affinity

for velvet looking things. So like if you if you don't use specular and you don't use metallic and you don't use you know uh yeah specular and metallic or or normal maps everything has this velvet soft look and that there's a there's a built-in bakedin nostalgia with that. Yeah. And and so when I when I one of your skills is you're good at minimalistic modeling. You're very good at that. When I see bone rooms, I'm like there's skill there. But then when I see cultic, I go there's talent there. There's something like visually. It's just there's not everyone can do that. That it's not the pixels, it's the color and it's the shapes that you've mastered. I don't see the pixels as being the forte. I see. It's like, no, he's a master at fractling things down into their truest form. And there's something cute and funny and charming

about that skill. And so, if I were you, I would not abandon that talent. I would lean into it. And that's what I'm doing for 2025. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I think um like my my general like if you if you ever looked at my old project um Unholy Commotion, which is what I was working on before Cultic um it's that's a very good representation of my actual art style. Um like if I just it unholy commotion, it's on itch. Um that is a really good representation of like my typical art style. Um and and it is it's you know it's very basic. It's it's a lot of like diffuse only shading. Um very like cutesy art style stuff. But that's and that's kind of that's probably what I will return to. And obviously I've learned a lot. Um I've learned a lot with all the work I've done on Cultic. Like my modeling um my modeling skill has increased so much and my texturing and everything. But working on working on with PBR materials and and more like I guess realistic models for bone rooms was it was a fun

learning experience, but it only works with a game as small as Bone Rooms for me because like it t it takes like an entire day for me to make like like I I just I modeled out like a defibrillator like a defibrillator paddle for Bone Rooms the other day. It took me like all day. And I mean I mean and that's like a relatively simple shape and a relatively simple texture, but just like making like a high cl like a high um a high resolution model like that. Um and then and then doing clean texture work on it and then doing all the normal mapping and all the metallics and all the wear on it and then like sure it to it took me like all day and that's not it's okay if it's like this is an item I'm adding and this this will be like a big chunk of new content for the game, but like for Cultic I could have never done that, you know? It's like when I add a new prop into Cultic, it's like, you know, this is a this is a rectangle. Like it's this is this is a cube and that's because I've only got 20 minutes to make this model, you know, and then I have to move on to something else. Um that's exactly right. It's it's it's also and I'm speaking from personal

experience working on a game that has PBR everything. I've been working on it for two and a half years or three years, I can't remember how long. Twisted Tower, it's it's everything, you know? It's the normal maps, it's the metallics, it's the specular. Everything is in every single material. And it's fairly high fidelity. We still tried to we tried to keep it low poly, mainly for performance and and making sure people didn't think it was AAA because you don't want to sell a game for $15 that looks AAA in my opinion because you're going to get a disconnect with the with the players. All that said, I can I can speak from personal experience. If you want to quadruple your budget, do that. add layers of complexity to your models. Throw in some normal maps, throw in some metallic, throw in some specular. A lot of people are thinking, well, a lot of a lot of software will just generate it automatically for you, so who cares? Like, if you use sub substance, the problem is is that you spend I I spend a lot of time tweaking normal map values, tweaking metallic values, tweaking

specular values, baking. Baking is a whole other conundrum when it comes to specular because specular information gets stripped on the bake as does normal map and metallic information. It's all stripped on the bake. And so you have to it's this it basically quadruples your game's I I'm maybe I'm being a little bit hyperbolic, but it quadruples if not maybe just doubles your production time and the budget and also just how it's running the frame rate. Mhm. And so I'm sitting here going I I've thought a lot about this if if you're if you're not aware, I if it's not obvious, I' i've thought a lot about this this year because I'm like, okay, I'm going to I'm going to double my budget and the time it takes time it takes to finish my game. And what does it mean? Well, it means the game is going to look similar to a lot of other games cuz most games do have typical PBR texturing and they try and use realistic models. So, I've decided why would I do that for

my next game when I can just go hyperminimalistic and stand out? Well, that's the that's the beauty of being past the Xbox 360, you know, PS4 era is that like I I feel like like the graphics arms race is is kind of over. Uh not not that companies aren't still trying to make like the best looking game out there, but it's not important to to a lot of gamers anymore. Um, and there there obviously are still people who are like graphics above all else, but I mean you look at like the success of like I mean hell look at look at Lethal Company, man. Like like graphics um Lethal Company's got a great charming art style, but like from a technical standpoint um it it's it's very rudimentary and that's fine. It works great for that game and and and I mean the sales on it speak for itself. Like you can make a you can make an amazing game and and sell it with just the concept which I think is great. Like it's it's so nice to see that happening because it was like, you know, in, you know, when you're back in like the Xbox 360 era, it's like all anybody cared about was graphics. Um,

and that was just like it was like everyone's just trying to make like the most realistic thing they possibly can. And and I mean, not that that didn't produce some amazing, beautiful games, but it's so nice that like we can just focus on um the gameplay. Like Minecraft would have never happened if if the only focus anybody ever had was on graphics. like you know a game like that wouldn't have been possible if you know infinite procedural voxal world had to also come with photorealistic graphics it wouldn't have happened and so and so I know there's and that's and that's great you know and especially that you know that a game like Cultic that's just like hey I'm going to draw this thing poorly but I'm going to crush it down into a 128 pixel sprite and then it doesn't matter and that and if that can be successful then then yeah the world the world's your oyster but I think it's so funny hearing you talking about um PVR materials and like uh you know like doing baking and stuff cuz I'm like all the stuff for bone rooms I just I just draw it all in Photoshop and I just do the layers manually because I don't understand. Well, I know. I mean, I do that too and and it takes a lot of time. It does, you know, takes forever.

Does it actually add value to your game in terms of standing out? Not really, cuz most games look that way, right? Um, so I actually one time I I I stripped all of the PBR or all of the specular metallic normal maps. stripped it out of Twisted Tower and I sent footage to one of the developers of Cult of the Lamb and they were like, "That is way better." And everyone else on Twitter, I did a poll. Everyone else on Twitter was like, "No, this looks worse." And in my head, I'm like, "I don't care if it looks worse. I care if it stands out." Now, granted, I don't think it looks worse. I actually like it looking more tuny. Mhm. But the whole my whole point saying all of that is if something looks worse or it doesn't necessarily matter if something looks worse because better or worse is not really what sells a game visually. It's more like how does it feel, right? Does it do I identify with does it capture me?

Not does it look good? Right. You know what I mean? It's it's a Yeah, it's a style thing. I remember I remember this conversation um that I had uh it might have been it might have been like at Gamescom but um talking about like where where I where I'm picking my battles on Cultic when I was developing it. Well, I still am, but um you know, and it's like John like graphical fidelity, like okay, I'm I'm modeling out this like garage for this map. Um and I could spend a week populating this garage with all manner of little props and details and all these little things, but at the end of the day, my game is never going to look better than the every AAA game that's coming out. You know, like no one's ever playing no one's ever going to play my games for graphical fidelity. So instead, what I'm going to focus on is the things that my game can bring to the table and that, you know, that's like gameplay and design and simplicity, yada yada. So that's the stuff I'm going to focus on because like focusing on trying to have like the most detailed

environments is is is a losing battle for me because like no matter how much time I spend on it, even if I made it incredible, at best my game now looks similar to every other game on the market. And so like it's it's not, you know, that's not a battle worth choosing. Um, and it's the same thing with like like the, you know, these these materials I'm making for bone rooms. Um, it works for that game's art style. Um, because like if you're going to make a back rooms game, I think kind of like this, at least it needs to feel real. Yeah. It needs it needs to be like a little bit realistic. Um, but I don't really have any interest in doing that on any other game because like it's not really my style. U and, and it's just god it takes so much time. It it's it's so timeconuming. Um, and for something that in my opinion I like I think from a stylistic standpoint I think Bone Rooms is probably the worst looking game I've ever made. Um, from a from like a PBR modeling it's from a technical standpoint it's it's the quality is higher than any other game I've made. But like if if I look at Bone Rooms and Unholy Commotion side by side, even

though Unholy Commotion is like six years ago of my modeling talent um and and learning, I think Unholy Commotion looks better. Like it's more charming. It has better style. Um, yeah. So, it's just like I don't know. But, uh, but I but Bone Bone Rooms's style works for that game. Um, but that's just not the kind of game, you know, I'm probably not going to make something like that ever again. Um, and by the way, I uh I wrote down three other three other things I think you're really gifted at. Just so you just to give you some encouragement. Oh, well, thank you. Uh, you're really good at at creating a sense of place. Uh, setting. You're really good at that. Creating a a feeling of like a location. Mhm. and I want to be in that location. Cultic, you did so good with that. Uh, nostalgia, you're really good at creating a nostalgic vibe. Um, your music and you write it yourself, right? Right. Your music combined with your use of color and that simplicity, it just gives this feeling of like I feel like I've

played this game in my past. And I don't think that's because of the pixel art. I personally I think it's it's something else. Um, and so those I just wanted to tell you those things just just to encourage you and I would lean into those if I were you. But thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, man. Um, I wrote down a question here for you. Um, do you do you have any um, are you ready to be done with Cultic? Oh, yeah. I've been ready to be done with Cultic since uh, uh, when did Cultic come out? October 13th, 2022. I've been ready I've been ready to be done with it since I Holy crap, dude. How what's pushing you other than the fact that you've signed a contract? Um, well, I actually I don't contractually owe anybody chapter 2. Um, really? Yeah. No, it's so like I want chapter 2 to exist. I I want to finish the story. I love everything that Nick and I have made so far for chapter 2. Um, but what I what I love about game

development, um, is the exploration of of ideas and watching them come together. Whoops, sorry, I smacked my microphone. Um, I love like being able to create new ideas and like take these ideas that are in my head and like get them on paper and see if they actually like work and trying out trying out new features and functions and and that is almost completely absent when you are creating a continuation of an existing game because like with chapter 2 isn't going to switch up the cultic formula like it's it's more of what makes cultic fun. It's more of what people experience. I mean, yes, there's there's new ideas here and there, and there's new locations, and um but like it doesn't it doesn't reinvent the gameplay. It doesn't reinvent the pacing. Um and so right now, it's just kind of linear content grind, which for me is torture. It's it's just like like all day every day is level design and creating 3D models. Um, it's just and that's it like it's it's part of the

job, but you know, like like getting to switch over to bone rooms and explore something completely new and just like, oh, I'm going to add this item and see how it changes the multiplayer gameplay. Um, like you can like the like this defibrillator that I'm working on. This one item I'm I'm going to sp I spent like a day modeling it, a day implementing it, and it will completely change the formula for the game play. um because you know it lets you like revive teammates and it lets you do you know some other fun things and and so you've created this one asset that then brings like hours of value to your game but with Cultic's like linear content grind I spend a month or two working on a map that takes 30 minutes to beat and that and that that feels so awful. It's just like and so I'm ready to be done with that. I might you know I I I've said before I think Cultic is probably the biggest game I will ever make. Um, like I'm sure you so funny. I'm sure you feel the same with Twisted Tower. Yeah, dude. Dude, I'm I'm spending my time right now and I've sent you screenshots.

I'm making like cute isometric like precious little vignettes. I'm like working on a Harry Potter like I'm gonna do a video on it, but like my brain is so fried from making a big game. Yep. working with publishers, signing deals, hitting milestones. I am so burnt out. You know what that is? That feeling? That's you sliding closer to me on the spectrum. No, dude. I'm always going to be evil. Um, we're going to be bumping elbows soon. But there I I will say, man, I I was hanging out with some friends who are bit one of them is a business owner and he was talking about grinding and working so hard and he said, "As long as I get home and I feel like I've I've I've just worked as hard as I possibly can, I feel like I did my job." And I said, "I disagree with you." I said, I'm at the point now in my

career where if I'm grinding and I'm burning both ends, my work suffers actually. It's it's a it the the the indie game world and the YouTube world, you're only I would say there's a one to one correlation between calm, patient, joyful work and success. It's a onetoone correlation. You're as successful as you are calm. You're as successful as you are joyful. You are successful as you are patient. So, I I'm done with the grind. I'm not I'm just not going back. And I did it for two years. I'm like, I'm freaking done with this because I'm just It hurts everything. It hurts your family. It hurts your relationships and it hurts your game. Yeah. People found that to be true. Oh, yeah. Um people like pretty much I

would say almost universally um people feel that like the weakest maps in Cultic are the last couple of them. And that is when I was working like 16-hour days um and working on the weekends and just like no social life, never leaving my desk. Um and and that's one of the reasons that like chapter 2 is taking so long is because I'm I don't do that anymore. Um that was that was a situation of I'm running out of money. My savings are dwindling. I have to get this game done. Um and so I'm working, you know, I'm working ridiculous hours, ridiculous days, you know, I'm not taking any time for myself. And and I don't do that now. Like I work I'm working healthy hours now. I take my weekends. Um you know I and I'm just and it sucks cuz that yes that does mean chapter 2 is taking longer, but I can't I'm not doing it again. Um it's not worth it. And if and you know and if somebody and if somebody wants to tell me that like I should be grinding to get cultic out sooner than they're they're not then they're not the kind of person I want in my community because that's just like

nobody nobody should be working those kinds of hours. It's it's ridiculous. I agree. I always told my team, I said, "If you work more than 40 hours a week, don't." Yeah. I mean, that was the rule at my studio. And if anyone, you ask anybody who's worked with me, if they ever told me they worked over 40 hours, I said, they almost got in trouble, honestly, because in my opinion, anything over 40 hours a week, and I may even change my opinion to less, like I may even make it less, like 35 hours a week. If you're working over that, your game is just going to become mute and bland and repetitive because I don't I don't think you can I don't think a human being unless you're like a genius. I don't think a human being can be that creative for at that frequency, you know, at that level of grind, right? Some people can. So, I guess I could just speak for myself. I have to be in a

very calm state. I like I I told Kelsey I said my I told my wife I said I want to be I want my life to look like jazz. Um like calm cocktail jazz. That's my goal for for the rest of my life. When people are around me, when people are watching my videos and when they they're working with me on games, I want them to feel like it's a calm, chill cocktail hour. And I'm it's just ri there's a rhythm and there's a flow and it's creative and it changes every once in a while, but it's it's got a rhythm to it. There's no nothing aggressive about it. Um that's that's really my goal with gamedev for 2025 because I'm not going back. I I used to say burnout wasn't real. Like I I would tweet like just power through it. You're just probably being lazy. No, it's real. It's bad and it's not good for your project. Not at all. Yeah, and that's that's another reason why I'm like like I think Cultic's the

biggest game I'll ever work on. I don't I don't think I ever want to work on a game that takes me more than a year again. Um I just like I I don't know may maybe like two years maximum for something a little beefier, but like I really game day is all about exploring ideas and like and and just learning and and you don't really get that when you're just pumping content into the same game. Um, and again, this isn't like this isn't like a condemnation of longer games or or anything like that. It's just like me personally. Um, because and that's why I don't want to work at like a studio. I I don't want to be like just a guy who cranks out 3D models for a studio. Um, because to me personally, like that's not like 3D modeling is probably my least favorite part of gamedev. Um, it takes so long. Um, yep. And because I'm not like I don't know, I'm not like super passionate about art. I'm not a great artist. I'm just like a functional artist. Um, so I don't know. It's uh there's a lot of there's a lot of value to me in just in games like Bone Rooms where it's just like exploring exploring a small idea, making

something fun, and then getting it out there. But y as I learned with Bone Rooms, that's not necessarily the path to sustainability. Um and so yeah, and so that that's and so that you know, you talk about my 2025 strategy. I don't know like once chapter 2's out, I don't know what I'm going to do next cuz um Well, it sounds like small is about the only thing you've you've said is your strategy. Yeah. is well just like not something not something as big as Cultic and not something quite so linear. I think I think I'd like to focus on things that are um like I think my next game is definitely going to be procedural like have a little bit of procedural generation because I think what I want to do right now after four years of working on something that's just linear. I want something that's the opposite of that. Like I want to have a game I want to have a game that I can drop a new like I can drop a new enemy and a new weapon into it and then you get you know that's four new hours of of of of time with it you know like my my favorite game right now that I've been playing is Crab Champions I've been playing and and it's

just like I mean that dev will put out an update that's just like he's like oh yeah I made this enemy a little more aggressive and you're like oh let's go time for a new run and then and then because and it's just you know but right now It's in order to make content for Cultic, I've got to spend like two months like doing level design and and and making new assets and making new music and making new textures and that's just to get 20 minutes of gameplay out of it. And it's exhausting. Um, I will say though, as a as a millennial father who's who's exhausted by the time my kids go to bed, I do love linear games. Mhm. I love the simplicity of jumping in and experiencing a story. So, it's not that I don't like them, it's that to make them, it is such a gamble. I agree. And it's so expensive. You know, Crab Champions, the reason this game I wouldn't call it a gamble pretty much ever is because it's an early access game. Mhm. And there's something there's something that excites excites me about early access games because what you're

doing is you're sort of just your game is proven before you invest in it to some degree. Like you maybe you spend three months on a on a little prototype and then you release it on early access and if it flops it's like well maybe I don't need to invest in this anymore or what can I do differently? Because like what happened with me is we put in so much effort and time and money into Twisted Tower. And granted, I do think it's going to do well, but we just went through hell because we we didn't we didn't prove anything. You know, we didn't ever go in and try and prove it to an audience or drop a demo. Um but you definitely don't want to do early access for a linear game. I don't think so. No. So, I'm excited like you are. I'm excited by the idea of creating a simple loop and it's really really fun and it's really creative like pump things into it. Yeah. But things that are meaningful that that

matter and that's like I don't know like I'm just I'm I'm just I'm very burned out on cult. It's been a huge help having Nick around um just not only a to have someone to split a bit of the creative burden with, but like just having someone to kind of bounce um things off of um and to share to just to just share in the experience has been great. Um but I think the other problem the problem with having Nick around is that it has enabled so much scope creep. It's just like like like the maps in chapter 1 are by and large very lazy. Um there's a lot of asset recycling. there's a lot of like keeping things as simple as humanly possible. Um because I'm like I don't have the time. I don't have time to do anything more than this. Um I don't think that makes them all bad, but it definitely doesn't make them like a spectacle. Um and in chapter 2, because I have more time to work with. Um I'm not crunching all the time and because I have Nick um helping me out, like the maps have gotten so much more

complex. It's just like f it. Why don't we have six music tracks in this one map and like all these new set pieces and all these scripted sequences and u and the maps I mean like the the shopping mall map took like 3 months to finish and it's like 30 minutes of gameplay but it was just like no why don't we have all these you know unique stores and yeah let's put a freaking movie theater in here and have like movies running in the theaters and like oh gosh and it makes for like a really but like that's you know never happening again like the that that was the spectacle map of the chapter. That's right. And it's great. Like I think it turned out awesome. I love that map. But oh my god, when you finish, like when I came to the end of three months of working on that one map and then I play it and I look at my play time and it's like 22 minutes, it's just like, oh my god, what what a It feels like a waste of my time. And and I know I know that like to the consumer who doesn't have, you know, two years of development in this, it it will feel fine. Um but like to me, it's just like h Yeah. I can't I can't believe the return

for my time investment here was 20 minutes of gameplay. I know. I know. There's a It definitely sort of a for me there's this toxic resentment that builds with every game I have. And this sort of is a nice sort of end to our conversation because it bookends the beginning, which is I don't I guess maybe I don't feel so sacred about gamedev because I bitterly resent every project when I'm done with it, you know. Yeah, that's I think that's that's definitely normal. Uh at least when you first release it. I know like every like everybody that I know personally game developer wise that has released a game like you just like fall into this like this pit when you're which and it's so weird because the experience is so consistent and and it's so like it's so like antithetical to what you would expect like you would expect like I just I I just released this game like

it's so exciting I have this big thing out there I can be proud of I can start making money but it's like it's just like it's not it's it's like this giant thing of like I never want to touch a computer again. Like I I never like when Quilted came out I spent like a week or two doing like you know like critical bug fixing and then I was just like I'm not touching this until January. Like I just I I cannot stomach looking at the Unity logo right now. Oh man. And and it's and it's so consistent which is the crazy thing. Yeah, it is. It is. And I think it's um it's like a cosmic joke. Yeah. It's like it's like the universe is is is laughing at you because you create you do I mean every game dev treats their project like it's sacred and everything every bit of you goes into it especially indies you know it's it's easier to to be more corporate when you're part of the you know a bigger machine and a bigger team but when it's a tiny team or it's solo that game is

you right it's a it's a reflection of you and so there's it's a there's some like my wife always says, Thomas, you don't know how to separate yourself from your your game studio. Like you're one and the same. And it's a problem for me because, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't ever want to be best friends with or married to somebody who they their identity was indistinguishable from their job. You know, that's kind of annoying. It's like you're more than your job. But for games, for making games and doing it with a tiny team, it is almost impossible to separate yourself from it. Well, I think it's I think it's different when it's an art form, too. Like I mean, it's it's different to be like, you know, like you know, if you're you know, if you are doing something that's um like like less of a I'm trying I'm trying to I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't sound like crap. Like my my previous job before I switched to game dev full-time,

I worked I I wor I did like uh like software support, like support for a software company. So customers calling me, breaking things, and me fixing them basically. Um and I liked that job. I was good at it. It was pretty easy. It paid well. Um but like it wasn't my identity. and and and you know I think that you know if you if your identity is like a a complete loyalty and and your personality is all about your job as you know a a support person that's different than you know being someone who's like like an artist and like you know like this this canvas that you've painted like your your life is about these things that inspire you and um and and and I'm not again I'm I'm really not trying to say this as like a like not like don't take pride in your job or whatever but I I just think it's It's different when like to make it. It's I hope you know what I'm trying to say and I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to be about it. No, I think you're overthinking it. I think I think if it's it's quite literally as simple as pretty much every

aspect of game dev is an art form, which makes it art. What distinguishes art from, let's say, some sort of technical skill is art requires you to be creative and honest and personal. There there's there's something naked about it. And when you're constantly naked, that's the only word I can think of. When you're constantly naked and exposing every part of yourself emotionally into a project that's so personal, it's so um terrifying. It's embarrassing. It's it's and it's public cuz the whole goal is to make money and the way to make money is to get as many eyes as you can, right? So, it's just this big huge almost nightmare of exposing yourself to the whole world and everything that you've put into this thing, years of work and time and money. And what I've had to do is as I've had more kids and

as I've become more of a a a family guy, I've had to learn how to separate myself from games, from making games. I it it's just not healthy for me. Um, so when I go downstairs, I have to shed the gamedev because my kids don't care. They don't want dad to be They don't care that dad's a gamedev. They don't They don't care that dad does YouTube. They just want dad to play with them and be fully present. That's it. And so I've had to It's so Oh my goodness. It's like almost impossible though to to strip to separate the two. Um, so it's a challenge. It's a challenge. But yeah, I would I would agree, but um I don't know. There's a certain part of me that's like like why wouldn't you want to I don't know. Well, like I guess it's one thing to like to project your stresses on like on your family, but but it's another thing to like just to be to be excited about the stuff you're working on and to want to talk about it and to want, you know, like I I'm sure I

talk my wife's ear off all the time about like this this stupid little thing I just added into Bone Rooms. I'm just like, "Oh, it's so it's so cool, though. It's I it really is based on a person's personality. My personality is I can't focus on two things at once. I can't. So if I'm if I'm thinking about gamedev and I'm passionate about gamedev, my kids get the crappy version of me. The one that's the words you're saying to my face are bouncing right off of my face and I can't even hear what you're saying. So I have to I have to literally flip a switch. Um because I'm I I get super hyperfocused on things. Um, so it really does come down to your personality type and so yeah, I'd love to hear and that's uh I say that's one probably one of the one of the reasons that like like my wife and I like we don't have uh kids, we have cats because we can we can we we we can emotionally neglect them for a night while we're focused on Absolutely. Absolutely. But we're, you know, we're both we're both like very very um because we because we both both

of our jobs are are very passionate, you know, like I obviously do gamedev stuff and then she works, you know, very closely with like our family and so that's all, you know, family business stuff is all very very personal and and a big pride point for them. So it's like, you know, if we if we had if we had more responsibilities in our lives outside of our jobs, we would be in trouble because we're our our work life balance is a little skewed right now. Sure. Sure. And we're we're working on it. We're trying. was it was a nightmare. Um like 2022 when I you know like I was working 16our days on on Cultic and she was you know trying to split time between her full-time job and like doing stuff um with family business stuff and it it was a nightmare like you know we hardly saw each other you know like our health took a took a nose dive um and so like we're trying to get away from that now and that's exactly um and I'm hoping that we're hoping that with chapter 2 out I will finally be able to breathe a little bit. Um, I know, but I just feel like, and granted, and it's not like, you know, 3D Realms isn't rushing me, my community isn't rushing me, but I feel like I'm way behind on it. Like, my personal goal, I wanted

this game to be out a month ago. Um, you know, my originally I wanted chapter 2 to launch like a year after chapter 1 and then, you know, that obviously didn't happen and then two years and that didn't happen. And um, and it just, you know, and it just keeps getting bigger. But my solution with chapter 1 was to to work more hours and just like and just crunch and just get it done. And my my solution now is like it'll be done when it's done. You know, I'm just I I want to work on it at a at a nice pace. I don't want to rush things. I don't want things to feel rushed. Um and so that's and the downside of that is now it's probably got a 2025 release date or it definitely has a 2025 release date. So yes. Yes. Well, you definitely don't want to please do not release during the holidays. Um get smoked by the double A and AAA scene. But um well, dude, this that's a great place to wrap up. Um, if anything, I think when we when we think about 2025, and for my audience listening, if you want to get into game dev in 2025, I I just know for me, I I want to I want

to I want to be calm and creative and relaxed. And so for those of you listening who are are scrambling constantly and worrying and anxious about your projects, try and learn to calm down and chill and not catastrophize everything in your brain. That's what that's what I do. So I I don't want to be that way anymore. And I just want to have a relaxing 2025. I think 2025 a lot of businesses, especially in the game industry, and I'm curious what you think about this, Jason. I feel like a lot of indie studios and publishers are stripping down back to the basics. They're simplifying what game development should be. It's not bloated. It's not I don't think it's going to be possible to be bloated in gamedev in 2025 because the money's just not there. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um I'm not I'm not sure if that's going to be the trend or not, but it's

kind of scary if it is because that that shrinks the gap between um like indie and AAA even more. Um cuz like I think you know like obviously the indie scene is is is is very um very full right now. Well, I don't know if AAA is going to shrink down. I feel like they're going to do is they're going to focus on their big IPs and you're just going to get a bunch of big IP launches. So less launches, but they're going to be big. So, I don't know if that shrinks the gap for you. You You could be right. I don't I just don't feel like AAA is going to go down and start making indie games. I just I guess am I was saying more like um the trend of um all of the like studios, AAA studios that like close that close or downsize and the result is that people are making their own smaller studios. Um, and then you um you create like this this bigger bubble in like the double A sphere, but then like indie has been kind of like heading towards double

A in some cases. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what it what it looks like. Um, there used to be like this very big distinction between, you know, like Xbox Live arcade games and then like what AAA is producing. Absolutely. And that gap gets smaller and smaller and smaller to where, you know, you have you have games that are considered indie but have these gigantic budgets. um and and and look phenomenal. Um and so it'll it'll be interesting to see what 20 2025 brings. That's for sure. Well, I will tell you this and I'll wrap up with this. I just launched a podcast with Thomas Salah. He's the creator. It's actually just went live while we were talking on my YouTube channel. And I'd recommend listening to it because his solution to that problem to the congested, you know, small game scene is to be um to build universes and build an audience that's dedicated to your universe. So, for example, the cultic universe. You probably don't want to do this, but the idea is is to keep

building games based on the cultic universe, the style, the art, the feel, but it's not a first-person shooter. Let's say in this case, it's a top- down strategy game. And you build on that universe, and the people who showed up for Cultic now show up for your next game and your next game and your next game. So, you're basically creating a little island for yourself in this sea of ma like this massive congested sea of indie games. You're building an audience and that audience loves your universe. That's kind of I found that I found that really interesting. I was like, that's a really smart idea, you know? So, anyway, that's what I'm going to do. No, that's that's kind of the plan. I mean, my next um my next idea or the next game I want to work on, my my smaller kind of like procedural thing is I do plan to have it be a cultic game. So, but we'll see what happens. By this I love that. By the time chapter 2 is out, I might want nothing to do with uh anything that involves a firearm at that point. I'm just like, nope, we're we're making a

farming game now. I know. I know. My next game, I just want it to be like just a bunch of um I want a lot of movement in my next game. I can't I won't say exactly what I want to make, but I want it to be fast and fun and flowy. Uh kind of like a a vehicle game. Top down and just beautiful and just cozy. Um so different from what we're currently working on, you know? I'm just I just want to flee from like what I've spent my life working on for two and a half years. So I think that's natural, though. But yeah. Anyway, all right. Um, everybody in the who's listening, there is a link in the description to check out Cultic, to check out Bone Rooms. Um, anything else in the description you want, Jason? Um, I guess you throw my my Twitter in there. Um, yeah, Jay- Saw's Games on on Twitter. Um, I am posting on Blue Sky now as well. Um, so

I um I don't I don't have like a ton of traction there, but I love the vibe on Blue Sky. It reminds It reminds me of like Tumblr. It's all very very artsy and wholesome. Um, so I I I make the occasional bisque on Blue Sky. Um, and uh, and so yeah, you can follow me there if you're if you're not, isn't it? Uh, there's no AI art on Blue Sky. Uh, they they do Blue Sky does take a much bigger stance against AI content. I have not seen it's that's the nice thing about it is like, yes, I don't get the traction that I get on Twitter, but my Blue Sky feed is just gamedev and artists and it's so nice. Nice. No, there's no no hate stuff, no political stuff, no no bot spam, no AI stuff. It's so nice. Um, so it's like even though that's not like even though Blue Sky is not giving me tons of growth or, you know, showing a big return, it's just I I feel I like being a part of it. Um, it just it just feels it just feels good and I hope it I don't see I don't see why you don't enjoy seething political commentary all

day. Isn't that strange? All right. Well, dude, thank you so much. That was a blast. Um, always great talking with you. We're We're gonna obviously stay in touch as we move on into this wild frontier, man, we'll see what 2025 has for us. We will. All right. Cheers, bud. See you. If you want to learn how to make games full-time in 2025, if you want to be an indie game developer from your bedroom, I can teach you what I've done. I've been doing this for 10 years. I've secured deals with Armor Games, Serenity Forge, 3D Realms. I've done two Kickstarter campaigns which basically raised $100,000 each. I know how to get funded with just a demo and I'm going to teach you how to do it. For Black Friday, you're going to get 40% off full-time gamedev. And you're also going to get 2D art pro and 3D art pro, which are my 2D and 3D art programs. They're going to be completely free. I rarely do a sale like this. This lasts for a short time and there's only 50 seats available. So, please check it out below if you dream of making indie games

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