If You're Making Your First Game, LISTEN To This 20 Year Veteran...

So, you're making your first game, right? And you see all these indie developers who are selling millions of copies of their game, and you're thinking, "Well, that's not me. I can't go viral. What's the point of making games then if I can't go viral?" Well, here's the thing. You don't need to. In order to make a full-time income from games, it's a lot simpler than that. The trick is, well, we're going to get into that. I had a super candid conversation with the indie veteran Jake Perquette who started making games in the 90s. He's stuck to one simple formula for his titles and just did that over and over and over for decades and it paid off year after year supporting his family. I mean, can you imagine that? Sitting in your home office making games from your own brain and getting paid to do it for decades. This is a clip from the full length podcast and Jake breaks down how he has made a sustainable career without a viral hit and perhaps how you can do it too. And by the way, if you want to quickly jump into gamedev, there's this

sweet new platform called Viverse, which is the generous sponsor of the podcast. It's a platform designed for developers and creators to publish and share interactive projects and games. And it's completely free to use whether you're building in Unity, GDAU, A-Frame, 3.js, JS or any other web compatible engine or even experimenting with AI coding. Viverse makes it incredibly easy to share your amazing creations with anyone with a click of a button. You don't need to worry about setting up servers or infrastructure since Viverse includes features like multiplayer, matchmaking, cloud saves, leaderboards, custom avatars, all right there out of the box. One thing I really like is the real time engagement tracking. You can actually see how many people are interacting with your creation to see what's working and what's not working. Publishing is fast, there is no gatekeeping, and you stay in control of your own work. And if you're looking to share your project that you've been working on with the community, the platform makes it easy to do it. You can check out Viverse by using our special link viverse.com/brush

so you can try out some of the experiences yourself or share one of your projects with the world with the ease of a click of a button. Click the link below to check it out. I think talk about a philosophy that both I think you and Jeff Vogle share and frankly I share as well. One of the big things that I talk about on my channel a lot is because some people will be like, "Thomas, you're not a game developer. Where's your viral game? Where's your viral game?" And I'm like, you know, number one, at least I'm releasing games. But number two,
you don't need a viral game to make a career out of this.
That's that's I think you and Jeff share that opinion, which is
you'd much rather make a game that's solid as opposed to trying. And to quote you, you said uh avoid rolling the one big die and getting a one.
Yeah. and instead learn to roll I guess make smaller games
and learn to make just one games that are just profitable as opposed to going all in on one big game. Can you explain that philosophy a little bit more?
Yeah, I mean it also comes from a place of limitation in a sense that I've never had a lot of money or come from money or

had partner that's earning loads of money or something. So I've had to make a business which works. Okay. And I think Jeff's the same. He's had to make a functional business. So that means not going out of business. Um and that mean you know and that means making products which have a good chance of selling and then once something works you build upon that in a in a careful way not taking too big a risk right so and what I mean is like if you spend years and all of your money on one big game that game comes out and it flops which frankly 95% of games do. Okay,
which is a stat people need to get comfortable with if they're even going to attempt this thing
and and bear in mind that they could be in that 95%, right? You know, you can't make a big game, have it flop, go out of business. You need a plan B or whatever. So, so for me, I've not had a lot of money to make big risks. So, what I've done is once something started working, I'm like, okay, how can I optimize this process? How can I make better games?

How can I keep that fan base engaged by releasing fairly often so they buy the next game and they buy the next game, they buy bundles on Steam of my games? That kind of stuff works really well.
So, and this is what Jeff's done. He's made many games in his series. He's got his hardcore fans which buy all of his games and then new people come along into the fold as well and keep him going. And then you end up with a catalog of games that create a passive income in the background. So, that's what our games do. they don't pay all of our bills, so I still have to release new games to get like a bump in income that dwindles. And then I'm like, "Oh my god, we need to release a new game." And then, oh, and you know, like I wish I was a bit more sensible about it, but when we did Regency Solitaire 2, we pushed it out at the end of February because I needed to get paid in March by Valve, right? So, um, it was that kind of down to the wire and then it made some money and we're okay and then, you know, but, um, it's building up this

back catalog of games, this fan base, our presence online. There's also this whole kind of aspect of not just building up, you know, a a community of players, but a community of developers, which obviously you're very good at, but is getting known online so that you get to know about opportunities and people give you information and then you get funding opportunities and partnership opportunities. Look, if I wasn't online and hadn't shared my game, uh, last game, Shadow Hand Solitaire, if I hadn't shared that, Nick from Night Signal Entertainment wouldn't have played it and he wouldn't have emailed me and said, "Do you want to make this horror game?" Which might end up being our hit game finally, you know. So, you've got to put yourself out there, not just to, you know, potential customers, but to the industry and all the people in it, and go to conferences and do talks and podcasts and blogs. Not. Some people I know have never done that and have made lots of money. So, there are exceptions, but I think this is the way to go.
Well, I don't like looking at the exceptions to be honest because it's

it's like I don't know. Some guy won like $2 billion down the road from my house. It's like this famous gas station that's down the road from my house. And I don't look to him and go, "Well, then I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket." You know, and and so I kind of feel like that's true with like, in fact, it's more true with thinking about someone like Notch. It's like Notch is a one in a billion. Like nobody's ever done what he's done. I don't think.
So I don't I don't like to think that way. I'd much rather think how do I make 50 to $100,000 this year
on a game.
Sure. And that's what I've been doing. Yeah. And that's what I've been doing with our games. We make games that we'll sell to another audience. By the way, I enjoy making the games I make. I'm I'm not like cynical about it. Like if I wanted to make more money, I'd probably go into free to play mobile games or something or get a job in a bank or financial tech or whatever, right? There's easier ways to make money as programmers than games, okay? But I love making games and being my own boss and I love the games I make and each one is different and improved and there's

something about it kind of unique and interesting, you know, so it works for me.
Would you say that that uh your career has been feast or famine?
Do you know what I mean by that?
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I do I would call it a roller coaster like this or
that's a funner way to describe it right
or or boom and bust years right so when we are working on a game and it need to come out and it's taking too long which has happened to me quite a few times games take longer than you expect maybe you're familiar with this concept
oh yes
um that's the famine bit right that's the the bust bit and it's like oh my god and then you release the game the money comes in and you look rich for a short bit of time not even rich but you know there's some money in the bank woohoo Right.
And then it and then it wears off and you're like, "Okay, the next game needs to come out." And that's why I've released 16 games over 20 years, right? Um I probably should have released 20 or 30, you know, but um
No, that's a still very very impressive that you've released that many games. So, does this um I mean, this might be a

personal question. If it is, just let me know. But does because with me and my wife, you know, you mentioned you were married. Um me and my wife, my wife is just so like um I'm the one who freaks out during feast or famine, you know? It's like, oh my word, I'm not going to make money. I'm not going to make money. And then I make money and then it's fine. Granted, I also do YouTube and stuff and make plenty of money from YouTube as well. So that's I'm grateful for that sort of backup plan. But like if I don't get a publisher for a while cuz you know I like to rely on publishers, I'll start freaking out. and she she has we've been married for I should know this 11 years almost 11 no 11 years and um she has learned to be so chill about everything when it comes to the roller coaster that's nice
she's just she's sort of just chill on the roller coaster and she really likes roller coaster so maybe that's it but she's super chill I'm the one who's kind of freaking out so I'm just curious what that's like with your family life and and running this business the way you have

yeah I mean I should also mention I've got two kids who are now young men, right? So, they're 21.
That's amazing. 21. That's so good. I have three kids.
Okay. Congrats. Yeah. And one of them's just they both finished university. One of them's just done a game design and programming course at university and he uses Unity. So, uh and he's helping for me.
Yeah. And he's he's helping me Well, he's helping me with Blitz Max and Forbidden Solitaire a little bit at the moment. So, that's kind of interesting. Yeah.
Um where was I going with this? Right. basically that because I've had a family that's also meant why I haven't wanted to take big risks. You understand? Like I've needed to pay the bills and keep the family fed and clothed and whatever. So, I've tried to make sensible decisions. Like if you're if you've got either loads of money in the bank or someone else paying the bills or you're living with your parents, this is a good time to take some risks, right? And to experiment perhaps within indie games. But when you you've got to earn your money each month, you tend to be a bit more sensible. And that's that's what I've had to do. Now, have I freaked out in my boom and bust times? Uh, all the bus times. Yes, I I do. I definitely

have that feeling. And at times it's been motivational to get me to finish something because I've needed the money. So, very simply that my wife, she actually, yeah, probably would has freaked out more than me at times. So, there's been times when I've sort of said, "Actually, it's not as bad as that. I'm just giving you the information, but I've got a plan. You know, it's okay." And one of the things I like to remind myself is I've survived 20 years. I think I can do it again. You know, I can keep going. I've managed. I always find a way. There's always I figure something out um when it comes down to the wire and and I try to figure it out before it comes down to the wire, right? Um like we've got a runway. I calculate how much runway I have based on the income and the money in the bank and I say it's going to run out at this date. So, I do all the kind of sensible stuff, but there's always this lowlevel, oh my god, you know, I could get money at any time and I have to go and get a job in a supermarket or whatever, right? So, though I think I do contracting or

or business software or something first, but who knows then they might say, "We don't want a 50-y old guy going work in the supermarket, right?" So, um,
but you've also got a really big audience that will come to your aid, whether it's Patreon or Kickstarter, probably. I think Jeff Jeff Vogle he's like look when when when he wants to do another game he'll do a Kickstarter campaign and it tends to do well.
Uh so I don't know maybe that's this is the thing that I've found you know I used to be in my 20s it used to be terrifying the idea of being an entrepreneur.
It just used to be terrifying to me. I did it and I I would do Kickstarter campaigns and sign with publishers and then do game sales and all this stuff. YouTube I'm always doing all this stuff. I was spinning too many plates all out of this paranoia that like I don't want to have to go get a real job. Mhm.
And what I realized, I think one of my friends mentioned it to me. He goes, cuz I was freaking out about something regarding money, and my friend was like, "Thomas, you're going to, you know, how to make money. You're fine. You'll figure it out." You know, when you have

eight hours a day, let's say 8 to 10 hours a day, not working a desk job and you're just in your home studio, you're going to find a way to make money. Do you know what I mean? you you ought to
plenty of time to find Yeah, you should be able to, right? Um, but I don't recommend anybody just quit their job.
No, I think that's what I did initi initially, right? And I don't recommend that because it was very very tough and we didn't make money for a while and we had to go into debt and stuff and I got out of that contract work and so on. No, I would suggest people make games worst they can on at home with if they're living with their parents or if they've got a job and get good before taking a risk and even then don't risk everything maybe or make sure it's money you are totally fine with never seeing again because that's that's game deis is tough
is is more money in the bank or less money in the bank a better driver for creativity for you

this is a tricky one actually because I've definitely been motivated by no money in the bank, right? So, you know, you they say you got to be be hungry, right, metaphorically or hopefully not in reality, but you know, that's right.
Um, you got to be hungry in order to sort of get stuff done. And that definitely works for me, but I don't think it's healthy. It's not a good feeling. And there have been other times when I've had money in the bank for a while at least and I have felt totally happy to work on games and make games and just enjoying that process. And actually that's where I want to get to again right with this current game if that puts enough money in the bank that I can make games perhaps even with less of an eye on the commercial aspect of the game. So I can get back to my roots as a hobbyist and make some things that I don't have to worry about being popular actually and I can just have fun creating because I've made games for 40 years. It's kind of in my blood now, you know, and if I can do that with no pressure, that's would be a fantastic

retirement hobby
amongst other things I do, right? So
retiring making games. So nothing different since you're in your 20s, I guess.
Yeah. Who knows? But basically, yeah, just an older body that has to have some breaks from the computer occasionally, right? Uh but so it can be a driver to have no money for motivation. It's not healthy, but it works like but I would suggest having well having a good schedule and just trying to stick to it anyway.
Yeah, to I totally agree. Uh for there's two things there's two things that really help me in my mid30s now. They help me keep me sane, help me make me a good dad so that I'm not stressed out or obsessed, you know, after work or trying to work something out while my kids are trying to play with me. The two things that helped me and I sort of figured these out in January this year because I had a really hard year in 2024. It was really hard.
Sorry to hear that.
It was just it was just a publisher stuff and the the game industry sucked.

Um, but this year is awesome and
I could thank this podcast for that because it's helping support the the studio. But the two things that help me, number one, recurring revenue that is predictable.
Mhm.
I mean, obviously that's a nice thing to have. Um, but number two is like five months of savings,
okay?
You know, at all times, just cash liquid, ready to go. So, I found that's really, really helpful. And I understand that that's like a luxury, but that's what I was working towards last year and this year. like I got to get to a place where I have some kind of predictable income because like with games it's like you get a big pop here from a sale, you know, you wait for Christmas, a Christmas sale or a Halloween sale or you sign with a publisher and they pay you 300 grand and then but then you have to survive on 300 grand for three years or I kickstart a campaign where you do $50,000 and you've got to live on that for 6 months. Those are the pops. And my wife always calls those pops. She's like, you always get a pop. The problem with pops is

they're so unpredictable and you never know when they're going to happen. You know what I mean?
And you think I might not get the next one, right? That's
I know. I always assume I always assume I'm never going to get it again, you know?
Well, there's no guarantees. I mean, in a sense, actually, um that can be the problem with if you rely on funding like funds like art funds or grants and things. Some of them are for very specific types of games and then you would actually I'm a bit worried about devs that might train themselves to only apply for this funding rather than training them training themselves on how to make a game that sells in the marketplace that's a different type of thing right and then if that fund goes away or they're unsuccessful they've got no business model right so it's a bit like if Steam said there are no more Steam keys sorry imagine how many businesses would just go down the pan because they
they totally reliant on Steam, right? Yeah. I mean, for me, it's much nicer having some money in the bank and but then you have to make a project that you know you can complete within that time and be realistic and do all that kind of

stuff. And that's happened to me. I've had many of these pops, as you call them. One of them was we did a deal with Epic for a free game several years ago. So, that was a pop, right? Thank you. And occasionally game that comes out that isn't a hit, but they're minor level pops on top of that predictable income, right? Mhm.
So, and and when I look at the money in the bank plus the predict predictable income, I can then see what my runway is and when the money will run out, right, with a relative accuracy. And the other thing is I'm not just relying on steam, right? So, on my Patreon, uh we've got a pie chart which I do every year which shows steam income, casual site income which are not off steam like um Patreon, Nintendo, consultancy, writing. So there's a whole load of different of publishing. So we've got a whole load of different slices to this pie. And if any one of them, even if Steam went away, it wouldn't be a disaster. It wouldn't be great, but it wouldn't be a disaster. And we could keep going. We could focus

on the other slices or find a new slice. And by the way, if you want to quickly jump into gamedev and perhaps maybe make your very first game, there's this sweet new platform called Viverse. It's a platform designed for developers and creators to publish and share interactive projects and games. And it's completely free to use. Whether you're building in Unity, GDAU, A-Frame, 3.js, or any other web compatible engine, or even experimenting with AI coding, Viverse makes it incredibly easy to share your amazing creations with anyone with a click of a button. You don't need to worry about setting up servers or infrastructure. Since Viverse includes features like multiplayer, matchmaking, cloud saves, leaderboards, custom avatars, all right there out of the box. One thing I really like is the real time engagement tracking. You can actually see how many people are interacting with your creation to see what's working and what's not working. Publishing is fast. There is no gatekeeping and you stay in control of your own work. And if you're looking to share your project that you've been working on with the community, the platform makes it easy to

do it. You can check out Viverse by using our special link viverse.com/brush so you can try out some of the experiences yourself or share one of your projects with the world with the ease of a click of a button. Click the link below to check it