Behind the GDC Booths: Unpacking Industry Challenges | 342

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev Unchained the number one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I your host Brandon fam and with me a special guest it's that time of the month Ray Graham what's up what's up what's up how you doing good good good uh before we get into it as always uh this is a round table episode if you haven't read the title this are these are our opinions of our own right uh so don't try to get us fired or at least try us uh well I'm speaking for myself of course so let's get into the round table [Music] news okay ready this is uh I felt like this is a good episode to kind of wrap

up GDC uh I had a chance to walk around the uh show floor you were able to walk around the vicinity which some say are is the real GDC so let's kind of compare notes you mean the vicinity what you mean basically you didn't buy a ticket and you kind of Freel loaded all the networking well first of all I did have a ticket oh oh my bad because you were so adamant about not having a ticket ticket no no no I had I had a ticket eventually had a ticket okay yeah get a chance to walk around yeah yeah I definitely I definitely was all in all the places I was out I was out in the park I was I was walking around I was walking around the show floor the show floor seemed very um smaller felt very much smaller than in past years which is kind of might be might indicate how people are trying to save money um but but yeah um and I went to some good talks too I went to a few

few good standout talks I think that that were pretty good yeah uh yeah I noticed that too they they didn't really have a big Xbox Sony or Nintendo presence uh on the floor at all it was mostly I think it was meta once you walked in Epic and a bunch of other like 10 cent or whatever uh and then a lot of middleware um man you didn't even you didn't even mention Unity damn de oh did was Unity there I barely noticed well Unity always did their thing off campus is that the the booth no the booth was the booth was was pitiful this year way back there yeah like it wasn't way back there it was right beside the metap booth but um it was it was just really small right like and when you compare it to past past years where like it would be half the floor or something crazy right um it was really like a huge scale back like huge

right um it is a year of saving money I I think it is crawling back because I think for myself last year saw some numbers coming back this year I felt it was as good as I remembered it back when I went last before Co 2019 or so it was cool to kind of bump shoulders as always we we basically run that block for the week which uh always feels awesome you know more more than that block is few few blocks but yeah it's it's crazy yeah they did clean up downtown I would see that's the thing right is like before GDC I've been down there yeah every day yeah right and so cleaned up like I mean it was the same yeah it's always been right and even and even during GDC I saw some human VCS like like you know what I mean right so like I still saw some yeah yeah so so

like I mean San Francisco's just like that way the stories that you've heard have been Gravely overstated 100% um and and also like GDC had the the cops are out in full force yeah g like full force right but I don't even think they were stopping anything because like there wasn't anybody causing any trouble I saw a few stops I didn't see any stops but I did see I did of course I saw people that were I did see some drug use and all this kind of stuff going on right but like it's it's like from what it was back in the day it's better um and when I say back in the day I'm talking like five 10 years ago even before covid yeah it's way better yeah yeah it was nice to be back and um not have to step in human feces all the time sometimes that was never that was never the case but anyway any brown spot is human feces see

right but uh I mean there was a lot of announcements um you know just a regular thing uh unreal Updates this and that uh I I will say this was hot off the press right I walking the show floor the main conversations I would walk by listen people are obviously always excited right when anything engine related is release or updates and then they show off the Marvel stuff however there was a lot of real criticism of what the hell is epic doing I was actually very surprised just regular people like us on the show floor really what yeah man people are talking well around epic I guess either current or recently uh uh uh released employees were all hanging around there uh I personally was able to touch base with a lot and um you know I think overall

sentiment with how the industry is laying off so many people epic being such a big presence there I I think the conversation kind of uh kind of veered towards what is epic doing uh because this is what I heard man all right this is what people tell me things okay sure sure all right that big layoff right Disney pumping back money into the company MH and people being offered back their job slowly right half their salary sure you gota yeah you gotta maintain cost right and if you like if you get laid off and then they're going to come back to you and you're really gonna even entertain the offer yeah they're doing it right yeah I think you're already messing up like that's that's that's a you problem right accepting that yeah yeah that's that's that's a you problem but but I think of course of course epic's going

to want they going to need people to build the experiences that they want to build in the in the better verse that they're building right and um and does he pumping money into it it's going to help them do that and then this time around they'll be able little more cautious with how they throw the money around you know I think as companies get bigger this always happens right like the the the the the the High Times just come back down to reality you know what I mean um I I would say like what are they doing I think it's obvious what they're doing you know and and the people if anybody has any issues with the with the booth you know I was eating chocolate chip cookies getting my free t-shirt you know just with everybody else right with everybody else I just getting te free t-shirts and chocolate chip cookies and popcorn and whatnot um but at the end of the day you still got to be able to you got to be able to Market you know what I mean you got to be able to be in in the hearts and minds of people even even if you did layoffs

right let people know that you're still out here which is why uh the UN Booth was was a bit problematic you know I felt uh it being there at all or just how small it was just how small it was and how little of a presence it had did they hold anything at the office or no I mean I mean there's always I don't know but there was always like you know there's always events and meetings and stuff like that but like the show floor is where you the show Flor is where you Market you know yeah um Unity has always been my favorite Booth to kind of visit yeah you know yeah and but also like you know of course they they still did the the road map presentation and the unity um state of unity presentation and all that but um but yeah like the show floor was kind of disappointing

gdo is it Gau or Gat gdo gdo I did see it right then G do had a pretty big Booth surprisingly I mean that's that Booth was the same size it's always been yeah has it always been there that's the first time I actually yeah no yeah yeah yeah been a GDC for for vators yeah okay I mean they they definitely took advantage of that little uh backpedaling you know you did do a lot of people were asking me is it like a third major player does it have any chance of upstaging unreal Unity like what what are your St I mean I always welcome competition and choice right what what are your thoughts about the gdo engine I haven't had a chance to see it yeah no I think for certain games certain small certain size games it it makes it makes sense you know yeah but it's just um

like I don't know how well it will scale up to to higher end stuff and and also like the the console support seems kind of iffy it's still very small how small is the company right now do you have any idea no idea no idea I mean you know it's it's you know like it's it's a open source thing right but then they they formed like a separate company to do the for-profit stuff because like everybody else you know they they realized that like you you know making an engine cost cost money yeah you know yeah and making it a general purpose engine cost money and cost a lot of it and so they're they're you know they created a company to uh to kind of do the full profit part of the of the open source thing right so like going into this uh next year and Beyond seeing what you saw right we have these commercial engines that I feel are still big chunk of the

industry proprietary is still special is it going to stay that unique or are we seeing like only a few companies utilizing their own thing going forward like where do you feel is it shrinking is it the same is it growing no I think it's clearly shrinking right the number of people that are using custom custom engines is obviously shrinking right cuz um you you've seen some more high-profile departures yeah to to to Unreal like people giving up on their own Tech and going we're just going to use unreal right and um like like CD project red being one of the more notable yeah yeah and I mean after what happened with the Cyber Punk and its platform release like can't really blame them you know what I mean like they need they need that stuff to get under control right yeah um so yeah so like I I think like the the the custom engine stuff at least at the highend is is going away um but then there's there's

people that like maybe in the mid tier making a game with their bespoke purpose that will do their exact thing that they want to do perform the way that they wanted to perform uh those those people you know those people are are still using custom engines in some cases yeah uh I mean I I came to GDC for very uh very specific reasons you know I went on behalf of my company to you know look at Publishers and funding opportunities and um you know going into it I already had like an idea that yeah I mean this year overall tights are a lot I mean belts are a lot tighter right uh but you know meeting with people on that side they're still obviously looking for anything that rises above the average to kind of

get behind my suspicion about fake demos with big resumés was who's that was anyone just name just throw rock into the new new startups that just showed up uh jez it was great to get confirmation because we you know like I said there was a lot of middleware companies there so we were able to kind of talk to them was able to show you know what we had and they pulled us aside like yo man like these companies they don't have anything you know and this is after maybe a year or two uh after announcing the studio they're still in pre-production they're still trying to find out you know find the soul of their game yeah right so you know my suspicion the last two months has been especially with the rise of lethal company power worlds all these kind of hell divers too

right double a smaller budget smaller team is increasingly being dominant in terms of at least Roi right and and at least uh uh Dev Cycles being shorter and realistic right MH you know I was talking to companies a wellknown company I won't call them out and they're like I felt like they announced their studio four or five years ago right and they were saying how they just got out of pre-production finally yeah like that's that's a ridiculous amount uh I mean that you're already in the hole you have to be able to deliver basically from the get- go for that type of pressure to be uplifted right yeah but this this clearly was a tripa company yeah right and so therefore they're going for like oh we need to we need to make

you know a good jillion dollars back right because they're they're going for like oh this this budget's 100 Mil 200 million that's the kind of budgets we're we're talking about right higher I'm like that budget's too low for a triaa game right so um so like that's what they're going for then then like time what's time you know like you can you can spend money because you have this huge budget right um and that I think that is a problem you know but I think I think a lot of these people have been they got in just at the time when the money was was flowing and crypto money flowing around yeah especially the Venture money was flowing around and and and they're like all right we got we got time to figure out what we're doing um I don't think that's the case today like if you're coming out saying hey I'm PR the company you don't got five years to sit around um you know and and you know and you know

that's something I've been thinking about too is is like okay so then how do we um how do we scope and budget so that um so that it will be you know in the middle yeah it will be a reason reasonable time and a reasonable amount of money that will be attractive to people that would potentially invest or back the studio yeah I mean it's a very tough formula to try to nail I think uh it's not unreasonable to feel like hey this these group of guys have somewhat of a track record versus a group of kids who just came out of nowhere right um but you know a lot of the times the the results could be the same but like yeah what's funny is like seeing the the release demo of let's say the same company right it was it was horrible

it's like this is the best you got you know what I mean and it just shows it just shows hey man I'm just saying how it is and like a lot of these companies are are clamping down like in terms of like you know very publicly stating like hey you know we're seeing no rooi there's definitely a a whip uh at the heels of a lot of these companies and a sudden shift from oh we're preout we're out of pre-production you know oh just coincidentally after these companies announced that hey we're not seeing any results from any of these companies that we invested in right uh to me I hope you know deep down that it will result into something uh that moves the industry forward as always but you know uh being a being a guy who who who who sees things well like I I feel like oh here's

another one that's going to hurt the industry right not to say that they did it on purpose but in a way they kind of did man I was like come on man like don't get together say that you're G to create something great and then you know make it harder for the next guy you know uh in this case me and Ray why why do they make it why they making it harder for the next guy though I don't think it's I don't think it's all these investment companies right once they get burned they get they get a little more no insecure about their purses man yeah I see it man I see it dude no hold on hold on it's it's not zero Something game one two if you're seeing companies and people not willing to free up money it's really because of just the current economic climate that we're in right um especially when it comes to VCS they bet money knowing that half of it's gonna

gonna bust L yeah you know or more than half right like they're looking for like the top top top to return most of what they what they want right so so they know that everything is always going to be a win right they just have a certain amount of money they need to deploy and then they'll deploy it like and they'll just figure out the right the right thing to deploy it to right um and even in these times there's still money being deployed is just less of it yeah um so it's not necessarily like they're like oh that one bet we did fail so I'm not going to do another bet no like they're just gonna they're rolling the dice they're at the casino like they're rolling more dice you know what I mean um just just give me another dice to roll right yeah um Publishers Publishers might might be like a little bit more weary or or less willing to take risks you know because because it's a kind of a different setup um but again it's still it's still um it's still mostly driven by the economy and not necessarily by oh that last thing we did

failed you know what I mean uh yeah I'll take half of that I'll give you half of that I think you know it plays a part we can't argue it plays it doesn't play a part I mean if the if the industry keeps failing who who keeps you know flushing their money down the toilet right I mean there has to be some kind of calculated risk right is is the industry failing because like in these last couple years all we've seen is nothing but Blockbuster after Blockbuster huge huge sales numbers hell batro that that card game and dcard game sold a million units right like you know what I mean million plus now probably right like like but everybody in the midst of all the layoffs everybody's like it's been the best year for gaming so many good high quality games hell divers too all this stuff coming out right meanwhile people are getting laid off like by thousands right um so like I

I would say like there's all these failures happening right maybe maybe there will be in a few years after all of these startups that that have sprung up I will say this I will say this there needs to be a division of uh Indie developers and then these huge triaa developers that have like 300 people that are starting up right I feel like we're writing on the uh innovation of these smaller companies right saying like see we're instantly innovating like when was the last time that a bunch of respawn guys right went and form a company and be like wow they really succeeded you know I can't even name one in the last four years honestly I don't think I've seen any of their games yet yeah and coincidentally they're all out of pre-production finally right so that those are the names those are the titles I'm saying it's just that I feel

it's a weird uh economy of uh where Publishers and um and investors are way more critical of these games that have I feel a higher rate of success all right at least a lower uh risk of Roi right because they're lower budget um and in terms of Mega hits right in the last year or so these smaller companies and smaller games that come out of nowhere uh are are are making the news or are making the industry exciting again right I I just want to be proven wrong once right that these big bets are paying off right it it's one thing to say yeah it's half and half it's not 5050 bro it's like 991 like who is created another valerant or another League of

Legends like where are those guys at they've been bragging have been braggadocious about uh this is what I see this is what I see in the news right I see I see hell divers too selling a shitload of units I see legal lethal company out of nowhere one team army uh killing it right pal company yeah the copy Pokemon but who cares 500 million don't know what to do with it uh looking for position right and then I see this is what I see from the bigger companies with these big Investments and big resumes uh second round funding uh $50 million you know that's all that's all I ever see I never see like we actually sold something that people bought you know out of this inv I never see that they only brag about like look at how much money we got on promises you know look at we're selling promises here guys they're so good at that and I feel that inbalance sound by the way you don't

sound like a hater or salty At All by the way I am just naming facts with a passion right I'm just like literally just reading headlines and then you know with with the with the with the with the big tone right that's all I'm saying hey man if I see a bunch of X blizzard guys like making something amazing that's is making actually that's celebrating more on the sale of their Gams more so than the promise of the game I will be gracefully accepting that you know I would love to hear that but the formula of that just a bunch of guys basically you know quote unquote proven themselves but not really right yeah uh just keeps repeating the same down I say I'll say this like I'm not I'm almost see your C but for a different reason yeah right I think you are basically saying like they haven't made anything right but for me it's like

when I hear what the thing is cuz usually they just they're like we're making a blank right yeah and and the blank is almost always first person shooter third person shooter looter shooter yeah right like I hear that a lot and I'm just and I'm tired of it I'm tired of it too that I'm tired of I'm tired of like why everything got be a shooter right like like there's a brand new studio you have all the money in the world um and it's gonna be a shooter yeah right and that's that's the thing where I'm like it's very seems very unimaginative right well speaking of unimaginative right I saw like on X Twitter whatever you want to call it you know Jeff K Jeff key right uh I guess the um Judas game from Ken LaVine is coming out right I guess they had an exclusive first look right so Judas Ken lavine's game G Judas B shck

but not Bioshock you know what I mean I I just looked at that tweet I mean it's been announced already right but you know they're finally all right so this this this this in a nutshell is how I feel about those guys right uh I don't want to make it US versus them but I mean they just kind of went in their corner and dictated that Arena of big budgeted games right this is a guy where I feel like maybe this generation forgot but I did not forget man all right he after BioShock Infinite infamously finally shipped right in this long drawn out Dev hell that they went through right burned lots of cash thankfully was critically highly acclaimed did all right right in terms of cell uh he had this Indie Dev bug hit right I don't know if it had anything to

do with our dear friend Steve ganner having very high notoriety at that time right gone home right and it was around that time where a lot of Indie Dev smaller teams were getting a lot of huge return on investment success right um journalist first of all all this this Judas game looks a lot like by all right let me get to the point right exactly what I'm saying so this guy right k navine all right it uh uh decided to close the studio down right only brought over a handful of developers that he liked and laid off at that time a pretty big number right nothing compared to now but at that time it was like What 100 200 people right B basically like 90% of the studio to to go on this Venture still published by 2K and the idea was to make something different quicker and more Innovative right that was the Big Marketing thing 11 years later right

Judas comes out right and exactly looks like Bioshock but it's coming out right and it looks like [ __ ] Bioshock right I mean it look everything about it the tone of it it's basically an alternate universe in the Bioshock Universe right this [ __ ] right I just hate that [ __ ] I like this is what I see like these guys who were and I've said this before who have done great things right I'm not going to put it past bck was amazing you know we owe a lot of you know a part of career to that franchise not dismissing I love B however move aside man let the New Kids on the Block come up with cool [ __ ] because now I just feel like they're just par he's parting himself you know what I mean it's like this is something I've done before and here's my knockoff and I feel like a lot of these companies are doing that they have done something

great I'm going to do a knockoff with a Twist no I'll say this okay one one I think you are now a hater um I'll just I'll say this telling the truth I say this straight up right because like one thing is like you are going to invest money right let's just say you Brandon you have I have money to invest you have $5 million let's say yeah to to invest in a video game sure some kid comes off the street goes I have an idea that's the greatest pitch deck ever for you right um looks great G looks like something you want to play this kid is this kid has never made a video game before though so you're not you're not so sure right he's never made a video game before you don't know what's going on with this kid he might even say he has a team team of other youth that that uh that are new or or really haven't made anything they want to go do something so there's one opt option and the other option is like yeah

like some grizzled veteran that has made games before he rolls in he's like yo I got a team of 10 people they all came with me from the last project we worked on we all worked on something together it was this hit game yo like you know which one are you giveing the $5 million to like if you want to Der risk you're obviously going to give it to the one that has the experience right straight up no I'm not going to give it to the guy who is known for prolonging development hell where everybody hates you are going to give it to I'm not giving it to that guy you will you will and maybe maybe if you have a hundred million right you piece off some yeah to go and do some riskier bets but then you're going to put some on some more bets that you're sure about yeah like it's just just how it works right and that's why you see all these companies they raw out a bed they're like here's a team of six people yo give me 100 million here's my business plan like you know because it's just like yeah you've done it before let's go like like like the the the level of Doubt um is reduced

you know and I've been I've been in those conversations where it's like where there's doubt and it's like okay well how much grit do you guys have or you know how how hard are you willing to work for this right but but if somebody's already done it already a lot of those questions are not even U asked right and and that and of course I laugh at those questions because I'm like grit you know hard work like that's all I've ever done right um but when you're like hey I was the lead guy that that made this game already and the game sold a gajillion units give me money it's a lot easier right that's just how that's just how unfortunately that's how it is right and so you you're fighting against that you're going to go for people that are going to invest in new upcoming and fresh ideas and there those people are out there doing that right but when it comes to 100 million 200 300$ 400 million that you need yeah right no

one's throwing that kind of money around on something they're not sure about oh for sure and I think um nobody should throwing be throwing that money around sure yeah yeah I I feel like g g are not that sustain yeah it's not sustainable there's a reason why um I do feel we're on the verge of the industry reacting hopefully I that's another thing that was kind of talked about on GDC is like why isn't the industry unionizing at this point right we have to do something um like it pains me to hear especially in the state that we are that people got screwed and then are accepting their old jobs back for half the pay right it's so humiliating you know to to to to in a lot of ways having to accept that because of whatever circumstances they are in I mean simply

there's there's not much out there right to to choose from uh they're probably situated uh in North Carolina let's say where there's nothing there uh they don't want to relocate family right um it it just it's it's stuff like that that I heard a lot right it wasn't just one person it was like a lot that makes me feel uh really bitter about you know uh uh a company that's public facing saying that's all about the little people right just two weeks ago and doing things like that you know what I mean it it sounds ridiculous to me that why why are you listening to what companies are telling you about their morals and their because this is what I see I I'm I'm I just realized this over the week but

maybe I'm like one of the few that don't go to GC for talks really right like I watch that on YouTube right you know I I two times that I subtitle that you know I'm not sitting there for an hour uh to hear you stammer live right but right oh it's a really good talk by the way continue I'm sure there's a lot of good talks but I'll see you on YouTube right I'm there in the network talk to friends because that's what I can't do online however right uh when I see like people at the booths and they're showing how to like put materials together and you have like a whole crowd of basically young kids like enamored with the process it's like like it feels man what a opportunity to have such a hold on a chunk of the industry right and to do something behind the scenes like that and at the same time be kind of preaching nonsense right it just feels

like you're supposed to be a leader right in the industry and you know it's bad enough that you stole a game idea from one of your you know the major billions I I mean you know I mean stop stop being so evil man it's like can't you just turn that into good and and just be good you know what I mean that's first of all that's that should tell you everything you need don't right it ain't about evil it ain't about good or bad or evil or either right or wrong it's about money it's the end of the day it's about money always about money right I get it man you know and and if a company says their values are this and that and this and they say it publicly um they're marketing to you yeah it's marketing right but what's stupid it's how shortterm that that thinking is to think like this is what I'm hearing right uh and I'm sure listeners can agree this is what we're saying like these companies letting go Direct directors and leads right it's [ __ ] up with the flow of

things right and the flow of things of how things worked before uh are definitely slowed down right because these pivotal people are gone also right uh they they are uh killing uh the morale of uh what do you call it survivor's guilt right I mean I I feel like most people yeah there might be a little survivor's guilt but at the same time it's like yo man I used to hang out with the guy all the time and now he's is gone and anybody is able to be gone now like how the kill the any sense of I mean you've always been a proponent of [ __ ] loyalty right however however you need a part a little bit of that def function as anything that's two to three year plans right otherwise you're just going to keep uh bleeding Talent left and right well well one thing is like I don't think companies want to lay off people I for no I don't think no know I

don't think they do honestly because I I think it's really is is kind of like the last thing this is where I'll add the step in very welln known companies right that yeah we all know you know I've heard that recently gone through these thousands of layoffs right that they had a list for a year before this happened that they've been compiling and it's just a great opportunity to get rid of people you don't like or whatever okay there's also that right it's like it's like when it when time comes oh here's the thing right yeah you can't get rid of people you don't like just like that without fear without fear of getting sued right even in even in at real State you can still get sued for wrongful termination for whatever reasons blah blah blah you have to really make sure that you don't get sued right um and so then now you need to say money and you need to cut people of course you want

unregrettable attrition to happen first right um that's that's the more um PC business way of saying you're firing people you don't like right um unregrettable attrition you just want those people to get up out of there right and and and uh and so then that's the time to do it because now you have layoff you give them sence and and in the whole nine right I found it really interesting you said ear just like in in in your rant there yeah a lot of interesting things pleas pick he said something interesting about directors and leads being let go and it's messing with the flow of things can I know people on the other side of the equation that are like all these directors and leads there's too many of them and they get paid too much they need to go sure they're not doing anything they're they're just taking up space right and and and then you know that's like the the the younger folks or the folks that are further down on the totem pole um are all like these guys are

idiots and they need to get up out of here y um so I find it interesting that like I hear that a lot in some certain situations and I'm hearing you advocating for more Els and more directors right but it could also it could also be uh the built- and bias there where you are also a lead and director you know hey man you track you track my journey from the beginning of this podcast to now I've been in all those roles and I see signific like you can't get rid of all right there are some pathetic directors and leads that are like what are you doing there right I'm not dismissing that but if you get rid of everything you're basically blowing in my op they're not getting man some of these companies are getting re it's a numbers game for them like there's no sense or anything about it it's literally Aid if you get rid of projects there's only so many lead directors you need if if you only have one project now

you know what I mean there's the only game companies that I've always have have always succeeded and this is something hell divers 2 is really you know this is a smaller comp double a company right it they resonated the message of like yes we got a lot of money no we're not going to overhire and uh what is important for us is to maintain the people and the culture uh because that's the knowledge that is going to make is successful these companies who are basically for-profit quarterly right it's all about what's going on the next three months right uh it's exactly the opposite of how to run uh a creative company right yeah it's it's just not possible to relearn rette uh and and and and motivate with a new group every six months right it's always been

like that yeah I already said the one thing that we've done the worst thing we've done to the game industry is uh we started selling games for money [Music] um that is that is the worst thing that's happened to the industry right because then yeah then it's it's you have to balance creativity with making money right and then a lot of way like and you see a lot of that's where all microtransactions and like and and um freeo play and all these all these different um what's the word I'm looking for economic schemes have come up right is through the deed of like we need to show growth and we need to grow Revenue we need to grow users and yeah and um and and in some cases it marries nicely with the creativity and you get really good games out of it and in other cases it's it's clearly like this is clearly a cash crab and this is clearly a ter terrible game right right um and and so

yeah it's it's it's hard to balance those things right um and then the top it off then you like become a public company right and you're and you're really you're B two investors yeah yeah going down the wrong path I will say this like um and I felt this for a while right it's not like I hate epic right I just don't like the hypocracy of the messaging just be real right I I have more respect hocy be like I have more respect if they came I was like yeah so what we stole fortnite I like oh dude respect I mean it's the biggest heist in gaming history right and they pulled it off somehow you know pubg sued and they settled right they're like you know we're good it's like all right I mean even pubg backed off that's cool but don't be doing all this [ __ ] like like when I see like the presentation right usually a lot of tech demos right but like in terms of uh uh uh uh uh in terms of marketing flare

right yeah it's just that now it's been like that for years like my theory behind epic is they ran out of designers or at least the designers there are muffled right because they only show flythroughs now like I don't see any game design or any Innovative uh design in anything that they show in their marketing anymore it's always like a camera fly through and at most yeah you see you see what I say no no can I say something very controversial what I don't think epic ever made good games they make ge's of War on real tournament let me repeat it louder for you I do not think personally I do not think epic ever made good games so you don't like gears do not like Gears of War I do not like but can you recognize it was it changed the Paradigm of third person a bit I I played no all right Resident Evil 4 was a big

milestone I feel like Gears of War for a moment like made it it had its own thing yeah people liked it and like people can like like things right that's completely cool with me right but if you're sitting here telling me holding up epic as some sort of like game design Paragon I I think you're tripping like straight up I think you're okay I'm always saying that because people hold forite as some kind of like once in a lifetime game design but it wasn't even their idea that made it great yeah yeah like hon on honesty I think forite had the the bones right like I think like I said I I tell everybody like save the world mode I actually enjoyed it yeah yeah if you take the bones of 3D art textures some animation yeah but also also the whole building thing and the the content like it it's it was like like it just needed some good polishing and some some balancing it was going to

do okay three four million units but nothing compared to what they have with fortnite of course of course of course not yeah I don't but they they they wouldn't have survived as they did with yeah 100% but also I think that if they uh they didn't even know when they when they when they did the whole fornite thing when they stole the stole the idea un quotes and did did the pivot to Battle Royale I don't think they even realize I got some birds I got some birds this to gave me some load down behind the scen man and this is what I've heard right spread it out un chainers right yeah they had access to the code for pubg they saw the servers being led up they saw the path of its success being explosive and that's when they pivot internally to create the mode so that is

some inclination of like they kind of knew a bit no no no they knew it's going to do better than what they had yeah okay but as big as fortnite is today the phenomenon of course it's a once it's a lottery they're having similar uh what I equated to the Disney Prom right with all the Avengers like making multi-billionaire success right and even Bob Iger publicly said like hey when he came back said if we're trying to measure our success by these in crazy once in A- lifetime numbers and see that as a failure we're never going to be better right we're never going to be matching up that that that Avenger endgame Saga right it's that was a rare like striking gold thing in the same way that fortnite I think they're realizing that even with Lego fortnite I'm actually a fan that marriage of what

they did was excellent right they're not hitting the numbers that they H for it's doing good I mean yeah it's doing great it's doing good but it it wasn't it wasn't internally they wanted that fortnite number to be explosive right yeah but they didn't get that so they're kind of looking at that as like yeah it was cool but it wasn't like what we expected to kind of give us that second wind right of like basically throw away money that they all enjoyed right I mean the way the way I the way I look at that is like I mean like let's say you're like dating like Naomi Campbell or something at one point sure sure sure and then you guys break up yeah and then you go and you end up dating like Janet Jackson yeah right and then you're complaining yeah that it's not Naomi Camp yeah we wouldn't complain it is J J we wouldn't complain right so I don't understand but those guys all right I'm just saying all right we are a little different than them all

right I'm just saying like there's not much to cry about here right and especially especially like um you see what the plan is right yeah with the mobile no Lego fortnite is but just one Cog the metaverse craziness that they're that they're doing right so and then Here Comes Disney here's $1.6 billion let's build some amusement parks yo like you know it's going to it's going to get crazy right and so like these things these things by themselves don't need I don't think need to do huge crazy numbers but like if a lot of them do like sustain nothing yeah it's all part of the puzzle I mean that's another angle that I'm sorry man like all these developers and all these people kind of champing ufn as being like Oh a second source for game developers like shut up man they're using you dude like I feel like these big Brands like Disney right you go to ufn it's going to be Lego fortnite Disney fortnite right it's

going to be uh Nike fortnite uh and Nike for yeah and and then it's going to be your crap right your crap underneath right and it's always going to be that way and it sucks right because they're not like it's the messaging man I have the most problem with the [ __ ] messaging that's it like the business plan yo killing it right however as a guy who's Big paid billi millions of dollars to creative creators Brandon okay all right let's go to the top creators who are they if I go to LinkedIn it's probably X epic guys that quit their job to create ufi that knows like the back the back you know alley of how to navigate this and get their friends to kind of get them Rich they're just people getting each other Rich right it's not it's not they're there there's there's a uh uh competitive what do you call it a competitive uh there's a conflict of interests right

with just their the way they do things they're they're a developer and they're an engine maker that's the problem right uh because there's no in Hell your game is g to outrank my game right uh and and and if and it sucks because their whole message is that it's all about the people man you know we're fighting Apple because of you it's like shut the [ __ ] up dude just be real man uh I just feel like you're no you're definitely right about the Apple thing definitely right about that like that like it's clearly self-serving and it's all about making money right yeah but like I just I was just uh I thought I was I was just in a corner I was like am I the only one am I the only non sheep all right of this world right but it was cool because on the show floor everybody was echoing the same thing I was like oh cool all right G developers the same thing around like there weren't saying all of what you were saying like no way they were bits

and pieces saying like this is [ __ ] on what they're doing because they have friends like we have friends that were starting to get offer back their old jobs half their salary right and you know it's very easy especially in a time like this yeah to to put in to put you know yourself in their shoes yeah rehiring people at half the salary is nothing to do though with that Des Des of their games are whack and The Meta ver well it comes from it comes from the same people that are bullshitting the messaging right yeah I think that's I think it's a completely different thing honestly like it's just like kind of a tangential thing right where it's like okay we want to hire people back and we just have to reduce our costs right yeah um and hey this is what the job is take it or take it or leave it you know um that's kind of at least how I see it but um but yeah like no like yeah I I just I think there's a lot to critique there but at the end of the day

it's about money their Market position you said something about conflict of interests um that's interesting one because that's an internal debate forever uh should it should engine make or make their own video games or not um yeah how else you going to know how to make video games using your engine if you don't make video games us your engine but then people say oh you're competing with your with your customers right and that's bad and some cases steal from your when you compete with your customers you end up stealing their ideas and making more money to them and squashing them like little bugs and but and here's the thing where I'll push back on ufn a little bit right is I think ufn is a good thing if you're going into like hey I wanna I'm like I want to learn how to make Game Dev I want to be graduated into the Epic ecosystem and grow as a game developer and as a content creator and get somewhere where block is not enough for me now I need to graduate up a little bit let me put do ufn and then

now now I'm that that reminds and now we hold on and now we're feeding the ecosystem of game developers through this thing right yeah now if you're telling me I'm creating a company and I want a venture capital uh investment to make ufn games I think that's absolutely the silliest [ __ ] I've ever heard yeah right because now you're basing your whole company on a platform that to go away at any minute and not only that a company that has more money than you will ever have that can just deploy high quality stuff that'll crush your stuff potentially immediately right it seems like a very very risky thing to be investing money into that reminds me right yeah this kind of like [ __ ] Machinery happening with epic right uh I mean they at the same time there was a couple things right at the same time uh they announced um this uh this this major

project for unreal developers right uh geared toward students right about uploading and and working together for free right in this program that they have uh and basically have uh weekly meetings for feedback accelerator program not even acceler program just upload your [ __ ] for free and the exchange is that you get feedback from professionals it's not even students it's like new developers right okay okay man if it wasn't for all the other [ __ ] then I'd be like oh this is a great you know incentive to new developers but how how manipulative is that to like basically give us your free work I went through I went through I went through that process just to kind of see what kind of contracts that you

have to like sell your soul for obviously everything is theirs once you upload right obviously obviously uh the only thing that you get is like these weekly feedback which is basically scrum meetings right you're you're this is like an intern program but not really internship right yeah yeah so like I I just feel I feel like I'm seeing like before they laid it off he like hey this is what we can do you know for the good people that we like let's lay them off offer them half because [ __ ] there's nothing else instead of hiring new people I know you suggested that earlier right for a fraction of the salary what if we just make this accelerate program and they work for free oh my God right everyone is like high-fiving each other those guys in suits laughing their ass off

right it's like and we'll say it's for them you know and they're gonna celebrate us no I absolutely [ __ ] all right I absolutely detest things like that that um that ask for free work I absolutely especially when it's like some charity like or some some philantropic or social impact type thing I absolutely hate it it should always be like hey join this program here's a stien this Focus yeah on this it is still your stuff we won't steal it we won't we we won't own it right like I I think that's of course a way better way of of doing that stuff of course but like all too often you see that in Industry though like you enter some and then they own the thing because really it's the easiest way for them to to uh to get rid of their liability yeah right because if they do come up with something that's kind of similar to your

thing you could be like hey you guys stole my idea and they' be like no we didn't and then next thing you know they're in court trying to prove that they didn't steal it so they're just like screw it we'll just own it right but the other way the other way around is like you know put things in place so that that doesn't happen you know what I mean and and definitely when it comes to Youth and and younger people or are people early in their career it definitely should be something that they get compensated for right more more than just uh I'll just talk to you about how cool your art is you know so it's 100% going to be like that the problem with epic with their Community is that they're starting to have the reputation of Google right they don't follow through I mean they tried this years ago with Unreal Tournament right it's like hey instead of creating an internal team why don't we get the community to make the art for us you know uh Maps making Maps yeah making maps for us to continue under real tournament right at first it sound like oh this so cool idea those small

impressionable talented people right eventually fizzled out because that's some of the biggest names in the industry got their start though making map mods and stuff in halflife right not even halflife dude you're okay I forget I forget your age sometimes but like before halflife before half lifee my age is half life so there was two generations your generation My Generation that there was honest like you know honest uh road maps to becoming a game developer a lot of those people making C strike Maps became developers at at at at valve right you still need go further further back further further back are you talking about Quake Quake Quake do all back anyway continue I get you right I get that I love that right yeah that's not what's happening right now because I know how that feels and what that look like and I'm seeing just straight up

predatory uh practices you know what I mean it's like hey they're they want free I mean they're they're they're creating uh a Fab store right hey guys instead of like you know us making the assets why don't you make the assets and then we're just GNA own it you know that's a great idea it's it's fabulous right that's the idea the Fab the Fab store at least you get a cut right um you get yeah you get 10% of what you me yeah no it's it's more than 10% right it's it's it's isn't it isn't it the same 7030 split on the Fab store whatever it is yeah whatever [ __ ] they come up with like right but like the idea that they want to transition to and this is where I feel U FN is right people spend their time perhaps get better create better content youf epic enjoys all that you

know we we keep trying the champion the the what is 8515 I think that's the Epic cut right or is that just for selling games right yeah they're 85 you're 15 you know like that's how yeah yeah but you know how it like you know we all know how much money it takes to make a compelling video game right how much how much risk is involved in making a compelling video game in order to make the money back and make something in the future and be sustainable right um all of these big companies are like let's use our our bigness to our advantage yeah where we don't have to put up all all the time and we have to have some other some other pieces of income coming in especially when it comes to Epic because

epic you know went out almost went out of business numerous times throughout their yeah their career right and and there's always been some big thing that happened that that that's like brought in the money and save the company well you know why you know why I'm reacting this way right yeah yeah I was at these parties right just for observation right these late night mixers sure and I'm seeing these young impression girls like sitting there with their iPad showing their portfolio to the older gentlemen with the you know alcohol in their hand it's like yeah yeah I work here and here this and that this and that right not really looking at the portfolio but poor young kids thinking that that somehow would translate to a job right I feel like holy crap how have the industry not changed and not only have it not change it multipli to corporate

bigness right to me the epic thing with the store with uan is the equivalent of that it's like hey guys we can help you get in an industry with no risk but if it succeeds you know I eat more you know it's like it to me it looks exactly exactly like that scene that I saw at these poor mixers with these kids trying to get history I think your M I think your main mistake I think I already my main mistake is stepping in let me finish this it's not stepping in basically like smashing that portfolio down it's like silly kids AI is making all this concept art what are you doing it's like these guys what saying is like um Community is important yeah right and a place you're knowing your community and having people to talk to to know

what you should be doing what you shouldn't be doing your career having proper mentors having people that guide your career all of these things are super important right um at at the end of the day right like you have to make the decision right is it worth whatever the downsides are for where you need to get right and if somebody wants to do you offend like I said they could go ahead and do it right I just wouldn't face a profitable business on it right um and of course epic is going to take their cut because of course they're they're they're they're bringing users to you they're they're giving you the the platform you can you can argue that all of that isn't worth the cut that they're taking yeah okay then go somewhere else you know what I mean and then you look around and you're like oh wait there's nothing else right and so and so that's also why and you think Roblox Roblox is well known for child labor right and so and

so like um you know like you look around and and that's why you you need more competition you need more people making engines right but it's such a expensive and money intensive business right that it's like is really hard right but but you just have to become knowledgeable to make the right choices for yourself right like and I can't knock any company that's like yo we're going to provide a platform and these are our terms of our platform should your terms be better yes should Apple's terms be better yes should Apple not not be so crazy with what they do on their platform 100% do I think a lot of it is is is about um controlling their ecosystem with the iron fist 100% yeah go somewhere else if you don't like it yeah like straight up right because they make the rules right their platform here's the difference of of why I feel like for Apple I don't feel so against their stance it's like they are unapologetically this is our wall Garden

this is how we run things you know what I mean they never not no they're not though they say they say it's about your security and your privacy why they do these things right that even sounds better to me which is actually and the thing that makes it sound better because it's kind of true because it's kind of true but it's also kind of not true at the same time right and so like that's that's the thing about it right like yeah you you do have security you do have privacy but you can still get hacked you can still get your [ __ ] to like like 100% right Apple might even do it they might just take your [ __ ] and advertise yeah yeah but they're you know they can still argue they're better than Android phones or whatever right yeah but like they're because of where they are and how dominant they became right I just don't like how epic is somehow putting themselves in terms of morality above

them like above Apple it's just it's funny that they're in a lwuit together because they probably share a lot of the same Ambitions than not right uh epic would love to be the number one Gunslinger in town that owns the market share that Apple has in terms of phones right they're aiming to be like that they're P you know tip Sweeney is like gleefully going to bed wishing that right so like it's it's just the messaging I hate it's like just you want to be dominant you want to own everything you you want to do it as cheaply as possible just say that right but like the [ __ ] it it's you know what it is it's it's it's just the demeaning messaging to game developer it's like hey you guys are idiots do as I say right and it was kind of nice to see like okay not all of us are idiots you know everyone's talking about the same thing right we're all it's such a small industry so Niche we know what's

going on right uh I I I just don't think the gamer uh as a whole probably feels that way but to be honest like the the the one thing that I you know briefly you know just going outside of that bubble uh that a gameer just stopped by because they saw the badge it's like hey man they didn't ask about they didn't ask about you they didn't ask about meta you know what they ask about you can probably guess Rockstar that's all they cared about it's like hey GTA can't wait for that man you know to me it's like that's a company that yeah has a lot of controversy earlier yeah a lot of [ __ ] but man understatement of the century of course hey man our podcast is like surrounded by everything that rocker did right but man do they deliver you know what I mean

they just deliver and deliver it's like God and there's no one else that comes close so it's hard to say like and i' I've heard they've done better right from this last one I heard like at least it's acknowledged that maybe we shouldn't kill people making games I heard it's actually being delayed did you hear that 2025 oh okay yeah but yo bro I'm just going to stop you I'm going to stop you right there right because it's like this right we always we always celebrate the huge successes and the huge things and we idolize people that like that deliver results all the time yeah and and sometimes we really we think that the outcome of the thing outs is is outweighs the cost of the thing right and also by doing that we also ignore a lot of times people that are are successful doing things in different ways yeah right um and and like it kind

of happens with like you know people like Steve Jobs and Elon and all that that done like really interesting things that that are impactful to the world but at the same time are like flaming flaming flaming [ __ ] and deeply deeply deeply terrible people right and have done a lot of bad [ __ ] right and and and sometimes we sweep all the bad stuff away because oh look at this good thing they've done right um and and so like we we have to be able to hold both those things in our head and come to terms with both of those things at the same time and then also say well can we do better yeah than this right and and that's how I feel about Rockstar right it's like it's like yes GTA 6 will come out I will play it yeah it'll be crazy yeah it'll be the Rockstar thing and like I say this all the time when I see like really good games I just see the pain and suffering

every time I see that's all I see all I see is the pain and suffering on the screen um and and uh and other people are like I'm playing games and I'm shooting people in the face yeah this game's great um I see the the cost that that costs right sacrif how many how many marriages got broken up or whatever right how much hours like who has a health problem right now right because of working on this game right yeah who has a mental health problem from being yelled at from some douchebag dude that everybody says is game design God right um like that is the cost that we have to really think about you know right and prioritize more prioritize more than just the cost of like it's a great game W I mean I'll end it like this Rockstar is making a fantastic game on their own engine and they laid off

less people than epic so therefore they print money all day man they print money all day in the end Rockstar is better than epic I just want a new hero in town man I I I don't want it to be epic man I feel like they represent too much evil uh unfortunately their engine's awesome and it's hard to like not you know develop on that but might be better dude just just we just need a big voice right now like I feel like Gabe needs to come out and say something like we don't have like a big wig of that caliber coming out and just saying something you know what I mean it sucks that like is this how it's going to be me you get to a certain place where like we're king of the world and we just turn our backs on the industry that made us who we are I just hate that cycle of [ __ ] like this is like to me a perfect time for those figures to say something do something about it

right but everyone like this like it represents why we're not unionized it represents why this keeps happening it's like we're kind of spineless from the top down honestly Al like I somebody else said this and it's really interesting I don't know how much unionization would actually help our industry yeah I think it will help in terms of the servants you get right right when you do get laid off yeah yeah yeah but it ain't going to help you for getting laid off yeah it's gonna happen and and you know it's it's not gonna make it cheaper to make video games right um it's not going to change the ever needing need for growth in the greed yeah you know what I mean like so like yeah maybe it makes your your layoff a little bit more palatable for you yeah right but but but but get laid off is still going to suck you know yeah I think it won't stop layoffs but I think

what from what I've heard and talk to people at least give pause it's like uh maybe we don't get rid of that guy who just chews weird right maybe we'll just keep like it it's so easy to get rid of anyone right now uh for like this was such a perfect opportunity to get rid of anyone I think all all it's going to do it's like you're GNA end up making uh harder choices longer choices for who you hire yeah and so then people on the teams are just going to end up doing more work right um I do feel that that's yeah there's there's definitely a balance rebalancing of things but maybe that's what we kind of need because the way we're doing things is not working man like I feel like I mean I'm I'm I'm kind of criticizing how many people we laid off but like I'm equally on the side of like why do we hire that guy like you know so many hey man I'm on both sides you know I me like why are we hiring that dude right

like I feel like that needs to be equally as uh uh aggressive in terms of like just not let let anyone in here you know what I mean because that that ruin companies yeah and some companies take that take that stance and they're notoriously hard interview processes hard to get in yeah you know and they stay small and you don't hear pee from them you just see them doing their thing you know what I mean yeah um and then there's the ones that are like we need to make this Blockbuster game in in8 months and need to hire 200 people because the government says we need to hire 200 people yeah so we could get that government subsidy and whatever right yeah yeah so you could hire whoever you can you know and make up rolls and get people in there and then money dries up and you're like oh oh snap what happened right it's tough problem um I don't think it's all unique to our industry I do

feel our industry before any other industry have always have this issue of layoffs and and and of game cycles and stuff um I mean even when we look at our close cousin I I don't think that industry is that much better right movie industry which to me sounds kind of horrible contract to contract some of these are three months I mean a lot of those guys come game ility been unionized and they do have like I mean it is to be me effed with uh like if someone says we're unionized he like I can't talk about the movie I've been working on 10 years it's like wow that's some power right there uh I hope and the only people that can actually tackle this issue is like someone like gab newel or someone who our ex blizzard guys who came back and like hey I made all my money there really isn't like major risk for me personally right I'm going to Pioneer like a new way of doing things right let

me kind of get my buddies together and and make it Mutual that's important thing like I don't want someone to unionize and be just employee first only right it needs to be 5050 for it to be long lasting I'm all for that what that means for you know as an employer myself right right I know like I need to Heir for your terms for me to agree to any of this [ __ ] right so like like but that's the unfortunate thing like none of these guys I feel like people make their money and the only thing I hear common is like don't get into games that's that's all they really say usually the people who reach the highest success is like don't do games I don't yeah I hear people saying that like I don't know if I could ever tell the youth to get into games I'm like I take the opposite approach yeah right because like straight up anybody who's in this is really passionate about it and loves doing it and so like I ask I usually I tell the youth them the truth yeah and ask them are they sure yeah right like

straight up right and if and if you see all of that and you're like yeah yeah yeah I want to do it and I've had students come to me after they've been in the industry which is also great when you see a student that you've mentored and taught and helped and they get into the industry and they've come back and then they're like oh man I heard you guys say how bad it was out here but damn you know damn I didn't even realized right but they're still there and they're still grinding they're still doing the thing because they're passionate about it and they love it right and that's the and companies will will take advantage of that but but you have to have that to do this anyway even in a good situation you have to have the passion right as just tell him oh no the industry sucks you shouldn't do this like is there a better place to get your creative Outlet satisfied yeah you know yeah I'm I'm all for like it's the funnest thing ever and it's only getting that's the that's the

that's the irony of it with all these issu it's the industry is getting it's bigger than it's ever been before there's more more more use cases for it I mean GDC you know just seeing the technology there's a reason why Disney is investing in uh in in Epic they want to use the metahumans or the engine for their musement park they want to be greeted by AI Holograms basically right uh that is able to respond take information and interact with with guests right uh as the characters there's so many use cases it's going to be explosive in the next few years right um the setback is annoying it will bounce back a lot of those people will find jobs eventually if they don't get you know if they can hold out right whatever this pause is about um but I don't imagine I can't I can't imagine this

happening again without any resistance because right now largely there is no resistance and I think a lot of layoffs yeah well it's going to happen again right I don't know to this scale but I have a hard time thinking that it's going to be met with no resistance again like this time right not a lot of people are saying anything they're just taking it I mean the only thing I this is the most I've heard anybody ever talk about layoffs in the industry they talk about it they talk about it but what what's been done like that's well that's what I'm saying it's it's like but before you know like I've told a story like I told the story to like you know there was layoffs happening yeah my team was all worried yeah and people couldn't believe it and were freaking out yeah and and then I look at and then I see it was me and two other like old heads yeah on the team and those dudes

were just like cool as a cucumber right and why man these dudes worked at like arm everywhere they worked at SGI yeah right they've been through it they've seen it all they you know what I mean right and they're just they're going like why are yall tripping right like this is this is like we've seen this before and like me like at EA man like you know people always complain about the way layouts happened oh my God they sent me an email how about you come to work one day and all the doors are unlocked and there's boxes stacked up by the doors and you sit at your desk and you just wait and you wait for someone to tap you on your shoulder to tell you if you have a job or not that yeah that is that is horrible right and um and like and then that happens every year yeah like clockwork you you can set your watch to it right yeah I won't say what company it is but if people know they know right you know what I mean um and you you say your watch to it fiscal year it's time right the doors the doors are

unlocked before all this December is always scary yeah yeah yeah so so like and and we took it then right like nobody said anything about that stuff back back in those days right and now people are actually starting to say things and so at least at least they're saying stuff and they're you know they're letting out screams at the park at GDC and all that kind of right but but at least people are saying stuff and stuff which is way more than they have in the last 20 years right and and maybe did you hear that did you see that I see news about I didn't hear any I didn't see it I about it I was up I I crossed that Park like five times a day didn't see anything like it was like it was like a Wednesday but anyway but like it doesn't matter right but but I'm just saying like um I get you it was always been this way yeah is it's there's gonna be more layoffs it's a cycle right and you might think well you think these companies would learned her lesson some will and some always have and and others

do not you know so the only thing I hate more than uh these layoffs are these companies that are found and their statement is about treating people fairly not laying people off you know as kind of like a a uh protest but I was like man that's a bad that's a bad reason to be existing man it's like it where's the game you know what I mean it's like make a good game that's how you prevent layoffs you know just be a good game company uh because as soon as something because I've seen it many times as soon as the money start running short what goes out of the door like diversity all this stuff that they were champing you know because it sounded good and they don't mean it you know did you notice on that topic my favorite

topic you noticed have you noticed that um like three years ago two years ago a new company getting started it was always being created by diverse teams always even if the team wasn't diverse it was always in the pr buzz word yeah it was always in the pr now now I've seen quite a few new teams get created and somehow they're not mening anything about being the first team odd very odd how that's happening it's not bankable anymore man you gotta go offic it's gonna be all white team here's here's a different here's a different take on it it was never since it was never a thing yeah um yeah yeah so so that that's that's what it but yeah the same the same way I'm saying that that's the first thing that goes as soon as money gets short like if it was a thing then it's never it's not a sincere widely held value or belief it's just it's just [ __ ] it's [ __ ] more times yeah man that's what

I'm saying so this episode is about [ __ ] sponsored by epic uh I want to thank you uh Ray as always to rant with me uh I mean the positive thing about GDC is like hey the industry is growing man it's it's more profit than ever I mean um there's a lot of new technology is very exciting things right I know we didn't spend a lot of time on that uh but you know this is the year [ __ ] you know we're seeing and a lot of good people are are are are kind of waiting on the sidelines and can't wait to get in which they'll eventually find if they can hold out um but it it it sounds like I think what we said was around June July I mean you mentioned after March the next quarter things will start picking up which they will but I don't think until J June where we feel like a majority of our friends are hired again um which is probably the way it's going to go so yeah I think actually the majority of my friends already found jobs but but uh

your friends are better than mine then okay you win Ray no but I I you know I I think you know there there's there's jobs out there there's a lot of people out there it's harder to come by it will take a while but but a lot of a lot of really good folks I know you know they they're lucky enough to have many options and many [Music] choices be an engineer all right uh not all of them are Engineers by the way the majority yes the majority [Music] [Music] is