'Yar's Rising' and Reimagining Classics for Game Development with James Montagna | 347

[Music] what's up everybody welcome to another episode of Game Dev onchain the number one game development podcast about game development and the lifestyle thereof I am your host Brandon fam and with me a special guest James mat how you doing James I am fantastic how are you doing doing great now that you're here this is the part of the podcast where I ask our guest which is yourself to introduce yourself to the listeners and AUD out there where You' been where you at where you heading just a quick recap before we get started oh that' be my pleasure yeah of course uh I am James Montana director at Way Forward I've been here at Way Forward for about 17 years making video games um and in that time I've had the great honor of working on just a multitude of TI including uh most

recently uh before the current one we're going to discuss today I worked on Advanced Wars OnePlus 2 reboot camp with Nintendo uh prior to that uh I directed a game called vitamin connection for Nintendo switch uh since then uh or since I started Way Forward I've also been involved in the shant series uh pretty extensively um worked a bit here and there on River City girls related things um not quite as much on those um the mighty series of games that way Ford makes and just countless other ones really just quite a lot in the past 17 years and most recently uh I'm very excited to discuss yars Rising which we're collaborating with Atari on so uh yeah that's uh that's me yeah before uh digging deep in there I do want to kind of at least mention I have like a little short history with way for about 17 years ago so I graduated from the Art Institute Orange County it was my first

gig at Way Forward I was driving from OC over to you guys' office I don't know if you guys are still at the same place by Six Flags we so we are across the street from Six Flags uh like literally directly across the street but when you were around it would have been a slightly different building yeah so it was uh during the uh I worked on Hannah Matana DS I don't know if you remember that project way back oh I was in D in that game no kidding wow so I don't know if we cross past uh I was a low-level 3D artist back then obviously and so I don't blame you if you don't remember me but like uh my my had a lot of good memories there we were just small group uh in in terms of just 3D artists uh and uh it was my first first gig awesome wow so you're on that game of all games and you were here

that's so cool well I'm glad it good memory for you yeah it was fantastic I mean just just kind of to highlight that I I just wanted to say like the a game company like just being around for that long just shows how special Way Forward Technologies is uh being able to adapt evolve stay relevant uh progress succeed uh in today's age that's like and like your career itself 17 years at the same place is it's unheard of right it's actually pretty amazing yeah well thank you yeah I'm uh it's sort of career where the reason I'm still here is because I love it here we uh everyone here I think has a great time making games and hopefully it reflects in the work that we do yeah definitely I I want to dive into right into your's Rising right so it's a beloved franchise right uh Nintendo has the same staying power right as uh as

way for Technologies you guys have always had it seems like a very close relationship uh even when I was working on Nintendo DS uh and and and the S scroller genre the Metro Vania type of game play uh over the years you guys have been able to kind of really I feel own that space uh with all the different titles and and and and licenses you guys worked at so so do you mind kind of just talk about like how yards Rising started and when you guys started development and then just the Inception of of of the the Resurgence of it sure absolutely um well it's a conversation that we started with the IP holder of uh the yars game itself which is Atari and it was something where we' worked together in the past on a title Centipede infestation many many years ago since then you know uh I think both of our

companies have evolved and changed in many ways and we got to thinking you know it's been a while we should see if there's some opportunity for us to work together then again so then the conversation started between the both of our companies about well what what can we possibly do what sort of Brands can we visit and what could we make together and so the conversation began with I think uh Adam tyy on our side uh who's uh the head of Business Development reaching out to Wade Rosen Who is the president of Atari and having just a casual conversation about Brands and what we're passionate about and there were a number of different brands discussed I don't actually even know what all of them were but there's there was quite a few however we put together uh proposals for several of them and one of them was a reimagining of the 1982 uh classic Atari 2600 title known as yar's Revenge and so we put together

um our sort of vision for it which is a very unique vision for it we proposed it to uh weit over at Atari and I I I understand his response was something to the tune of I get a lot of proposals for Ys and this is the best one and we felt similarly fired up about it so there was this chemical reaction with both of us where we were just like really into this idea and we were thinking on our side like we have to make this game and so when Wade came back from Atari and was uh meeting our enthusiasm it really kind of blossomed from there and so we uh discussed further how we would make this happen what it would look like and got into to more of the details I imagine um it was probably several uh months of back and forth emails followed by some visits here at our office and that's where I became involved and we had some meetings in person where we jammed on the story figured out the game we wanted

to make and once we had a pretty solid uh vision for what this reimagining of yards Revenge would look like the game was green L nice uh so what are the kind of design challenges uh trying to reimagine a classic game for a modern audience right of course yeah there's always challenges um in this case I think the challenges with that specifically are making sure that we present something that is true to the spirit of the original we don't want to just take a brand and completely re reinvent it and lose its identity that's in fact it's the last thing we want um and I imagine a lot of people saw the trailer and they they're like what on Earth does this have to do with Ys revenge and um I a little bit I think we expected that response and maybe we even like want a little bit of that response but when you start to peel back the layers and dig deeper uh there's actually a a lot of connection to the original game and it's

something that we definitely have a lot of deep uh reverence and respect for and um so I think it's a little bit of a challenge to make sure we're always maintaining that because we do have that deep reverence we want to make sure that we're staying true to the identity of original and then on top of that the challenges are you know the challenges that you face with any sort of game development really there's the sort of challenges where you always want to be sure that you're providing the best experience possible everything's clear to players it's always fun to pick up and play the moment you grab the controller and so um we meet those challenges every day with the work we do and we we do the best we can to overcome them and in the end uh as we near the um conclusion of development on this title I I think we were able to overcome them this time and we have something that we can be really proud of in terms of like the U maybe this kind of leans back on on what you guys do at way for you know the the consistency that you guys seen over the years what is it about the way for technology like your group of guys

multiple teams your ethos that that seems to be working where other game development Studios H in the 17 years span let's say have not have that staying power that you guys have like what is it that that you guys continue to succeed on here that that other game developers can learn from yeah I I I wonder what the way forward difference is it's hard to say I you know I've been here for so long and not worked at other places because I love it here I want to stay here you know so I think um it's a little bit hard to answer only because I don't have like an outside perspective but I have some hypothesis uh that I can share with you and I think it's the fact that um well I'll back up for a second um Way Forward uh is an indie studio in the sense that uh we are independently owned and operated voldi way is the president and owner of Way Forward and I think um that that kind of is a interesting sort of

situation for a studio that's been around as long as we have to to be Indie for so long and you know we're just under the same ownership um but I think it works because we we stay fairly small as a company and uh we're Nimble and we're able to um do a lot of things and take on a lot of projects we we're we're small as a company in the grand scheme but large for an indie studio right so we can take on um just the right amount of projects and sustain ourselves um while not becoming so large that it's unmanageable but I think it comes down to uh an ethos that we all really have a passion and understanding of games so we have all come together as people that grew up playing games and have this deep appreciation for games and find anyone at the studio and there's a chance that they are a walking video game encyclopedia where just we have some really talented incredibly knowledgeable people and because we've been able to

gather people with this sort of uh mindset um I think it helps keep us on track of uh making sure we're we're stay true to the types of games that our audience uh wants to play and that might be part of like the the secret recipe for Way Forward success just it's my theory anyway well I mean it's it's working right and I think the biggest thing there is just you know uh this last year and we just had an early conversation today where the year 2023 uh the the theme of this year is survive until 2025 right the impact of the last two years was has been crazy and you know just just tracking those 17 years that you've been seeing these ups and downs and to to me like this is the biggest down I felt like our industry has ever gone through right uh in a weird year because it's not like people stop playing games people are playing more

games than ever uh and I would love to kind of hear your perspective just kind of being so uh in tune with what's realistic in terms of development but also just your personal opinion on what's going on sure um I definitely hear many stories throughout the industry of uh people in all sorts of different situations um I and I totally recognize and understand that it's it's a it can be rough sometimes uh I feel like my theory is our industry always es and flows and there's different things that cause that in this case it might be um like ripples that we're still feeling like uh post pandemic right so you know that's my own personal Theory and I could go like deep on that but ultimately um I I feel confident that our industry uh whenever it has troubles like this we will recover because people human beings require entertainment there's always a place for video games

in this world and I think video game like designer maybe on paper is like not the most like noble profession uh someone could could pick uh but I think it's necessary because uh we need entertainment and what a video game designer does is we're all entertainers and our goal at the end of the day when when I come to work each day here at the the studio um I'm thinking about the player and the ways we can Delight the player and ultimately bring people together um mankind will never stop needing that we there's always this requirement of being brought together and I think the pandemic is a great example of that where people were playing more more games they staying inside they needed that sort of thing they needed that sort of entertainment um and it was fulfilling this uh requirement and so uh pandemic or not there they'll always be that requirement and we want to step up to the challenge to find new ways to surprise and delight and bring people together through the products that we make um very idealized view of it but I I think as long as there's this need which always will be we're going to have an industry and

we'll find a way to continue making games fantastic uh I would like to kind of go back to your guys's original proposal that is the best out of all the proposals that right forar have seen yeah so for Ys right I mean uh with the reimagining right it really requires like it seems like what you guys excel at at the studio and psychopedia of all the different iterations uh the original what made it special and really reconstruct deconstruct and then reconstruct of how all right how are we going to pitch this so it is different but the same and and and excite old and new players alike like what were the key ingredients that felt you know if you can explain the process where you guys finally brainstorm like this is it this is how we're going to really nail this this is why it's different and this is what going to you know motivate us to to kind of get this going sure absolutely um well as I mentioned before we have a

very deep reverence for the original game um I personally have uh played it very much even though I personally didn't grow up on it um just as someone that I consider myself a gaming historian I had to go back and play this game um so over the years I always have a familiarity with it um but there are people in our studio that grew up playing this game and they have a more they have a bit of a different connection with it uh it's more nostalgic for them and uh for me I've just always had an appreciation because I think Atari is a company they're one of the oldest names in gaming as you know and as a result they have some of the most classic IP in the world of gaming uh period yeah and so uh among all those IP the reason I was always drawn to yars personally even though it wasn't a game that I played as a kid uh was because it just really stood out as something different when you play that original game it's got these psychedelic colors these really like this droning like like audio that's just like almost hypnotic and there's just something about it that really sets itself apart

from the atar 2600 catalog that I always was like wow there's something special about that game and so uh our proposal we wanted to make sure not to lose the elements of it that make it so special that make it so unique and so different but we also want to evolve it in in ways like what what can we do with this to kind of present it in a new light and of course most people wouldn't think to turn it into uh um an side side view exploration platform or game um or metroidvania as many people call them um I and I think that's part of what makes this special is because it is a bit of a curveball than what people might expect um but there's good reasons for that uh because I think it's important to surprise people with something maybe they didn't know they wanted you know and so as far as the materials of our proposal well we reimagined uh on the surface level we reimagined it so the

Yar in yar's revenge is actually a character who is a hacker girl she's a 23-year-old hacker for hire um a black hat hacker um so she's a little bit unscrupulous but um she is named Emmy Kimura and so she's this College Dropout um that basically can't keep a job and her her only gig is uh really that she holds on to is she's part of this hacker crew and they take odd jobs and gigs for hacking uh all sorts of different things computers companies whatever um you know you you come to them and uh for for a price they'll hack uh whatever you need to and so we had this concept okay so this is a really interesting character how do we expand a world around it and how do we tie it back into the classic yards game and so we thought about the original yards game where this is fly alien known as the race you know known as a Yar and there's a opposing alien

known as a cotile and so in the um the world of our game we represent the cotile with this company called cotch which is this sort of uh Uber conglomerate that is maybe like a maybe one of the modern-day like Tech Giants of our world in the world of the game it's like one of those and so um the story of this game goes that Emmy and her hacking crew get a mysterious client with deep Pockets that reaches out to them to uh with an assignment to basically hack CCH from the inside and so the idea is Emmy will get a job there and win their trust and then one night uh coordinating with her hacker crew she'll pull off her Heist to uh hack kotch from the inside for this particular gig and the story gets interesting from there because she ends up getting caught and so that's sort of the prologue of

the game she gets busted she gets thrown in a cell and now she needs to escape the cotech building thus the roomto room exploration uh uh gameplay but the ways we tie it into yards don't truly come to fruition until further in and so that was all part of our proposal where well maybe there's a little bit more connection to the Ys and people are going to realize just looking at the teaser trailer for instance or just picking up the game and reading the back of the box um and there's a number of ways it which we incorporate the classic Ys from that Foundation that I story that I've told to you today a lot of when revisiting like a a well-built universe like Ys right is at the same time can be exhilarating is the the restrictions of what you know that Universe already have come before you guys touched it and also how to kind of stay within you know uh creative uh decisions that you guys want to propel

you know expand that Universe like what kind of line were you guys having to to stay within at the same time how much Liberty did Atari uh allow you guys to kind of really make it your own you know I I have to say that Atari has been incredible part in partners for us because there hasn't really been this sense of being uh constrained uh in any way that's unnecessary they were really embracing our Crea ity here all throughout and so I think the end result really like demonstrates that because we were able to take in a really bold and interesting and different New Direction uh because we had their confidence in the story that we wanted to tell so I don't know that we were necessarily uh constrained in any way um on that front but there's always the constraints of the universe that you're working in with the story that you've developed and the confines of the classic story itself because we've had the ability sort of

reinvent it in ways um there was a lot we could do with that so it wasn't necessarily A a challenge it was more like fun to see how we can fit in the classic game and that's probably the extent of the constraints and I think those are the type of constraints that beget a certain level of innovation and creativity where we can do something really unique and cool I know that's a really vague way to put it but uh there's there are a lot of surprises to this game do you mind kind of digging into the uh the hacking mechanics you know as part of the design elements that you guys are introducing in this not at all um so in our game Emy kimoda the main character of course being a hacker herself throughout the game will need to hack various things she'll encounter uh all sorts of different terminals that we refer to as hacking Terminals and that will be her means uh which to do things such as open doors or turn on like a sprinkler or

something like that or disable a laser trip wire security system inside of the codc building to name a few common examples and so the experience of hacking we thought oh you know the perfect way to represent her version of hacking is to tie in the original Atari 2600 games so as you're progressing room to room in this side view uh exploration and you're having this thrilling Act of like shooting down enemies and jumping from platform to platform perilous pits and going from room to room and exploring you'll have a sort of dual gameplay experience and a couple of people have referred to him as mini games but I think of it more as like an alternate uh game that's running alongside the game that you're playing because it's sort of in a lot of ways it grows with you and it teaches you and it affects they sort of affect each other in ways so you'll be doing this side of your exploration but then when you're going to this hacking experience it will be a gameplay both uh gameplay

like like uh gameplay rules wise but also visually reminiscent to the atar 2600 yards Revenge game and so you'll actually see a display that looks like a LED like screen with a classic style Yar classic style Co tile and what we do is we actually remix the rules of the classic game in just so many different ways I I think there's really just uh I can't say an exact number but there's quite a few of these hacking experiences all throughout the game that reimagine the classic Ys experience so um that's it's a it's a pretty exciting uh thing because it also ties into the way you earn different ways to upgrade the player for the core platforming gameplay as well the funnest thing for me when talking to designers is like you guys take a lot of what I feel like social commentary like seeing what's going on outside in the real world and really put it back back into gameplay experiences

right so nowadays more than ever I feel like we're really hitting like a digital age 2.0 with the AI abilities the the the way to kind of deep fake the way to kind of change and modulate voices and really live like a second life online and then you guys having such a strong hacking digital element to the game I would love to just kind of hear kind of your thoughts of you know what what you think that is all about you know with this ability to really socially just be antisocial in real life and just be that person online all the time uh and create a whole different Persona really absolutely well that's a really interesting subject and it's one that a lot of us here at way for are personally very passionate about um you know the world is changing before our eyes even in the past couple years we've seen the Advent of artificial intelligence uh booming in the ways it affects the things do in everyday life and the the

the the entertainment we consume and the the products that we use and it's all over the place and so um how we like work that commentary into the game there's a couple of like ways one thing that we were always thinking about was the setting of this game right so the game yards Rising takes place in the year 2049 so it's the future but not the too farflung future and of course we had to think like what what kind of world is that and so as far as like a commentary on on state of things um maybe it comes through in the character dialogue which is fully voiced by the way we're very proud of that um really amazing talent involved in the voices for this game by the way um but there's a there's a lot of interesting uh humor and banter and dialogue but also just the setting itself we thought okay well we wanted to kind of think what is what is a company like this look like in the future and also how do we kind of like maintain like this identity for the game itself and we call it like a bit of like a

retro future which is something we like to explore a lot because this is keeps really interesting where we kind of take some vintage designs and it's like well now it's circling back again uh this many years into the future and so we sort of incorporate that that kind of thing and um yeah we had a lot of Concepts that we ultimately were maybe with like two on the nose that we didn't incorporate like what if like there's like AI That's always talking to Emmy it's like no we didn't decide to go in that direction it's like maybe a little bit too on the nose although we have a lot of passion we we love the concept of AI we love the use the the ethical use of um artificial intelligence and how we can like uh look to that and feel inspired by that and incorporate that into our workflow um but I think it's sort of thing where you will feel it in subtle ways like the current events of our world and how it reflects in the game itself because it just simply can't be avoided there's there's there are little bits of that influence that seep in so you'll have to look forward to get the more specific ways that uh shows itself but it's definitely

there yeah I think one of the one of the themes that you guys are hitting on and I would love to kind of hear your your more thoughts about it feels like we're definitely hitting like a Nostalgia age uh it feels like it happens once every 10 years but like lately it's like people are have been reminiscing about the 90s we're seeing this a lot of like uh people really leaning into remakes like I myself are hardcore on the resident EV remakes it's like there's like you know sneake eaters coming out you there's so many remakes coming out and like super excited because that you know those are the games I grew up in in in in those days right and the PlayStation 2 days um like what what do you feel like in terms of like gamer tastes now where people are are kind of reaching for Nostalgia to kind of recreate these experiences in my case I want to share these classic games with my children like the games that I that in a lot of

ways molded my personality my thinking uh my opinions on on video games itself you know Brandon you touched on something really interesting there with wanting to share it with other people I think one of the reasons that we work on the IP that we work on or we're so excited rather to to do them is because we love them we want to share them with other people I almost think of it as an act of video game preservation of sorts to you know it's one thing to and it's a great thing to preserve the games as they were and uh bring them back so make them playable again for people um so you know being able to uh remaster or even present it exactly how how it was there's amazing value in that but I think the angle that we attack it from is a little bit different in that we want to rejuvenate it and reinvent it and give it a new life for new generations so that perhaps when people

play yars Rising well maybe they grew up with the original yars and of course as you mentioned Nostalgia it's it's such a powerful force it's uh it's really uh appealing you're seeing a lot of like Y2K stuff like stylistically coming back even now and it's like it's really interesting to see like oh wow that's kind of circling back again it's interesting that it's the sort of thing that's connecting with people but what of those people that never heard of Ys well I think from creating something like Ys Rising it's our little way of being able to show them the things that we love like Ys revenge and maybe they'll play this game and they'll go back and research more about the series itself and learn about it and so it's our way of sharing it with the future generations to not just represent it as it was and not even to remaster it but to evolve it and reinvent it and do uh put our spin on it and make it

contemporary and cool and interesting and and pop and fun and maybe many years from now someone will evolve our yards Rising who knows yeah I mean you're you're touching on a a very interesting point that I've been seeing and observing is that maybe it's always been the job of creativ to kind of dig into history and then represent it and make it new again uh I feel like lately the the youths don't appreciate history as much as I used to back in school like I know my kids learn facts as it's coming but they're not so as interested as what was happening 20 years ago or 30 years ago you know it isn't it isn't as interesting as as it was I think in our generation and I feel like designers developers uh any type of creatives are are constantly kind of reaching back and reminding people like you know we solved these issues before

especially in game development right it's like hey guys let's not freak out right we've done this before uh and in a lot of ways a lot of modern games I feel are are kind of missing that element too where um where like we have like game Loops recall back you know like I I think and this kind of going off tangent but just to kind of uh hit the point like I felt like The Batman series right the the game right yeah was in terms of like big budget of games for a while uh there was this absence of like uh completing the arsenals and being able to use that always to the max like in Metal Gear For example right you were able to kind of level up be super good and then the last level is like you let's use all these game design ele elements that we we we've been practicing on and Batman just takes that

to another level it's like Batman one Batman 2 yeah everything you learn Batman one it's still there you know you're not having like you're not having Amnesia and suddenly you forgot all your Batman movies and and then Batman 3 kind of built on that I felt like you know there in this type of generation there's a lot of games that just forget you know the things that I felt like was in every PlayStation 2 game you know just building on the elements of the game and just making things cooler and better and kind of yeah calling back yeah I I think that is going to occur naturally to some extent just over time as games evolve uh we have a collective Consciousness where some things get lost but I think the great job of being a designer is we can dig into the archives and we can pull back things and and we can represent things in uh new ways and and reintroduce classic sort of Concepts and

I think that's one of the things that is probably one of the tants of Way Forward itself where we're looking at these classic gaming sensibilities some of which are like a lost art or lost to the sands of time and maybe not a lot of people are making that type of game anymore or just a select few are uh or making like using those gaming elements anymore and uh sort of bringing them into the future and in our own way for those people that maybe are not as actively like you mentioned diing into history it's our own way of giving them a history lesson uh and putting in this contemporary package yeah I I think that's the Still Remains What the the biggest strength of games it's just the interactive ability to educate and to involved and it still seems to be the uh the main thing that most other Industries try to kind of gamify with right and it's it's actually has a bad buzzword tone to to it because gamify

usually means want to be game developers but like just takes the intro to it but never really falling through uh of of the core concept of every gam designer um right I'm I'm sure you see this a lot I don't know if you have kids but like you see like these kind of uh these things in classrooms right uh that that they're they're trying to involve but like it it it scares me too that uh instead of hands-on experience there's a lot of like iPads now right and which is great in its own way however you know with the the amount of time that technology just takes over our daily lives uh you kind of just miss the the the just the regular nature walks and how that really feeds into the creativity right and absolutely this age it just feels like creatives unless we get out and and really go outside of the

bubble we're kind of it feels like cannibalistic in a way we're we're you know regurgitating you know digital stuff with digital stuff and it's like it's very rare to kind of see see people get outside the Bubba and introduce something uh like brand new and and have something to say uh in this medium yeah I I I definitely think there's a little bit of that sort of like pulling from inside I think the best mix is when you can take outside influences maybe really unexpected stuff and fold it into your game along with the conventions I think the conventions make it more palatable while the outside ideas make it fresh and if you can find a balance of both of those you can introduce something really special special and impactful um an example I might give is like um any sort of hobbies I have outside of games or any sort of in special interest that I have um it it's totally ripe for something that can become a part of a

game like I I worked on a game uh years ago vitamin connection which I mentioned earlier and um at the time I was really into Japanese uh obone Festival dancing and so I thought uh oh this is like a really like fun unique interesting thing and I was thinking like while doing that like how would you turn this into a game how would you incorporate this into a game and in that game it became one of the uh subgame experiences where it's the same sort of Rhythm and like like the steps and the cycle back to the beginning of the the flow of the dance and the literal sense of like spatial sense of like dancing in align with other people that Japanese festival dancing has and I thought like what a unusual place to pull influence but it ended up being one of the more fun parts of the game and so the reason I bring that up is because that really is just a pure example of well it has the DNA of a classic game like a rhythm game that's a known Concept in the world of games but pulling some outside influence to kind of keep it fresh and interesting and and new and unexpected I think in Ys Rising you'll find that

there is um a lot of classic gaming influence all throughout it there's a lot of elements people look at like oh that's like that one thing from that one game like yeah yeah it really is um but we are also taking influence from everything we do in our lives as as game designers and there's some real world things where uh you know sort of uh Hobbies or things I saw on TV like I there's an enemy that like is a I'll give you an example it's really specific it's a weird one but there's an enemy that's like a a scorpion and um we have uh water areas in the game and I was reading some article about uh pool cleaners just like randomly and how sometimes they'll encounter like scorpions that you have to be dur careful during the summer because they can stay at the bottom of your swimming pool for hours and they can survive like under the water and I thought that's terrifying that should be an enemy in the game and so we just took the Scorpion enemy we started putting it under the water and it just was a real

life thing that had this like influence that carried into like pool cleaners and scorpions like why would you even tie that into the game but yet it manifested it end up being something really fun and quirky and interesting about the game where it's like oh my God underwater scorpions now and it's like this is terrifying um but anything can be a place where you pull influence from and that's a prime example like your you guys I've always marveled at designers because the to me like it's it's there's like a correlation to how like comedians are right they take facts but are able to kind of twist it in a way and and make it unexpected right to get a laugh but in game design to make it interesting to engage right and uh it's always been a mystery like where are you guys coming from because like in art I come from a background of art you know art school there's a lot of avenues right to become an artist uh online there it seems to be a very common trade within the industry to to to see like at least a clear track right to to get in the industry with

designers it's it seems like you guys kind of grow from somewhere and then get together and and be able to like create games like there's still to this day I it's a complete mystery it's like if a if a student asked me how to become a game designer specifically right it's not very clearcut right maybe there's a track from a level design maybe yeah but like there's not really a a an Avenue where everyone can point to and say that's how you do it so to aspiring developers out there who wants to be designed who who wants to start thinking this way like what what you know if you can dive deeper to like these methodology that that you see that works for you just being curious you know what is it exactly do you feel like as a designer uh to keep your tools sharp this is how you get in in the industry get designning basically curiosity is a great word that you just used and it's such an important one because I think it

ties into so much of what we do we ask questions constantly we're very curious people as designers what what's the best way to approach this or what's the best way to surprise people what's something completely zany and unexpected that will just really like come as a delight and surprise um I have my latest theory is that designers are born of obsession I think the some of the greatest designers are people where there's just no other path for them they they just they're so absolutely passionate and obsessive with it that there's no other reality that they would accept and I could say that's certainly true for myself um I from the age I think that I could hold a crayon I knew I wanted to make video games and here I am right so I I think if you feel passion for it then you may be a prime candidate to do it I get a lot of people asking me how do I become a game designer and ultimately it comes back to one thing if you want to make games just make games and people like oh well you

make that sound so easy um but the truth of the matter is if you were passionate obsessive you will find a way um when I was a a teenager and I started driving my car um I don't recommend you do this but I was 16 years old and I'm like I I'm like I will make a game out of anything I see anywhere and so I'd go to the Gas Pump and I I'd start pumping I'd see the digits like tick up rapidly and my creative brain I'm like how do I make this into a game I'm like I'm gonna try to stop on $40 on the DOT and so I'm pumping the gas the numbers are taking up and then boom like like oh I was three cents short I lost maybe next time and then next time I go get gas I'm looking forward to I'm gonna play the $40 game and I'm gonna pump gas and that used to be close to a full tank believe it or not God but um this is the way a designer thinks okay so this is a like weird example but it's you know that's just the way it is like I I'll find anything and try to make a game out of it and I think if you um think you're one of those people that you're just really obsessed with there's no other possibility for you try making a game research it teach yourself there's so

many resources now people are so lucky they have the resources I didn't have growing up I couldn't dream of the res people have but you can go on YouTube and find like tutorials for just about anything you want to learn um and uh you can be self-taught and you can make a game I've seen it done and people have made successful games just in their own right just uh learning by themselves teaching themselves like it's their first game and it's like people get hit on their first game you know it happen so uh that's sort of a long-winded way to say you know you can be self-taught if you're passionate about it the resources out there you can do it it's possible I mean it seems like you go outside and your brain is constantly thinking and applying these kind of principles that that is innate with you as a game designer like how do I engage yeah but like I would love because there's there was this this good amount of period where still ongoing like Kickstarter makes uh headlines still with uh with

their analog games right their board games their cart games I mean so many Kickstarter campaigns ends up on the target shelves if you go to Target you're like Whoa man I I remember seeing the exploding kittens was a huge thing yeah that was a great one yeah like these applications that uh family friends game night you know these kind of everyday applications uh what what are you seeing maybe on on your personal level that that obviously is bringing it back because you know making a a digital game at least like takes years takes months before you actually say something and actually see something right that happens on screen right uh what other things are you doing that kind of keep the Mind sharp to because the the satisfaction too is to see something complete uh delaying satisfaction all the time is probably not the best way to kind of like see if your design works right what are there Ty of things that you're seeing that you're applying that you're like hey you

know prototyping type of stuff that that you're doing that you're feeling like hey these are principles that you know I I would love to see more aspiring developers or even regular designers nowadays should do more often to kind of keep things sharp so there's this concept of Game Theory and I think it applies across the board in the world of games the the same core principles that make the experience of something like uh a board game or uh any tabletop game or even like a Choose Your Own Adventure novel like the the same Concepts uh apply across the board can apply to games and so I think if you want to make games it's a great place to start would be pencil and paper games you could experiment with that and as you said those could take off uh all over the place there's a huge audience for uh board games and tabletop games and and and the sort of experiences that you can have without a screen uh and a lot of that stuff can tie into

the sort of games you can make on a screen as well so if you want to get started in that realm you totally can and a little tidbit I might offer is a lot of the prototypes that we make they don't always start on the screen either there's a lot of times where we will make a game out of like moving around like uh pieces of paper um granted I don't know if for Ys there was a a physical element but we've built Contraptions and ' had like um things where there's like sliding paper to kind of simulate like a puzzle or something like that I know for one of the shant games I actually made a physical like prototype of like how does this like how's this going to work where you have to like whip something to move like a piece around and I physically like made these like scraps of paper and slid them on on the sheet and like I used a pencil to like draw the path and it was like it was the quickest way for me to just physically like just build it and then of course that goes into the game um so I think there there's a way of creating prototypes outside of the screen or even

just doing rudimentary prototypes one thing we did do for Ys was outside of the um development of the hacking challenges within yards Rising uh I personally developed a sort of PC executable of like a remake of classic yards Revenge with all the elements there and what I just started doing was what happens if you turn off this element and I got rid of like uh the Destroyer missile and the classic yards Revenge that chases you around how does it feel now now okay I got rid of the the ion Zone that you go charge in what's the experience like now and that was my own sort of way of prototyping it out and ultimately that wasn't the code or even the experience that ended up in the game but it informed the development of that particular feature because I was able to prototype and explore and just try things out so sometimes in development you'll have to build something whether it be on paper and it's part of the process uh or you just build a small prototype that proves out a simple concept even if it doesn't end up being the foundation you build off of

it's all part of the creative thinking and development process and as you mentioned designers you know sometimes their brain works a little bit differently you're always thinking about these things and pulling influ influence from all sorts of different places um Embrace that I think as a designer if you if you want to uh be a successful designer be open to that influence coming from anywhere well James uh I want to congratulate you we we hit the uh near the hour Mark and hopefully it was just as fun for you as it was for me uh this is the part where I actually shut up uh hand the mic over to you to talk directly to our listeners out there of uh whatever you want to talk about awesome this indeed was a blast Brandon um I guess uh more than anything right now I'm obsessively excited to bring Ys rising to the world so I guess I'm going to have to talk about that um this is a game made with a lot of passion and love for games itself and I think that's going to reflect in the end

product so uh as we near the end of development and we get ready to share this game with the world number one I hope you look forward to it and I hope you'll follow uh Way Forward uh and Atari on our social media channels where as we near the closer to later this year we're going to be sharing more and more uh about this game and more looks at the the world of the game and even uh the development itself and uh I want you to be excited look forward to it um and give it a shot uh and also reach out to me personally if you have questions about uh game design I'm always excited to talk about that as well so uh yeah there's uh a lot to look forward to and be excited about from Way Forward even outside of uh Ys Rising but right now it's my core focus and we're making the best possible game we can um if you are someone that grew up with the classic game then there's definitely something for you don't think that uh don't think it's not for you just because it doesn't look like the yars you grew up with and

if you never heard of yars this is a great way to learn all about it so uh hope you'll enjoy the game well thanks James for giving us a peak uh at yards Rising also giving us like a quick Ted toon game design it's always you know it's just you guys are a mystery to me still uh being in the industry for so long but I always Marvel at what you guys do and how you guys think it's it's a very uh very unique group uh in in the game development scene uh but anyways thank you guys see you guys all next week [Music] [Music]