Why He Spent 8 Years On A Single Game (Adam Younis) — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 040

Imagine spending almost a decade on a single project with no real funding sources for the majority of the dev cycle. The most I've spent on a project is five years. And I'm going to be completely honest, it was it was hell. If you need motivation to make your game, if you need a path forward, and more importantly, if you want to go full-time, but you might not have that energy or drive, this podcast episode is for you. I chat with Adam Eunis, the creator and streamer of Insignia, a game that honestly sent nostalgic chills right down my spine the moment I saw it. From digging through his personal savings to finding funding on YouTube, Twitch, and various grants, Adam knows exactly what it's like to grind to finish a passion project. We discuss all of this along with the importance of Steam wish list, building an audience, staying sane through the stress of development, working solo, working with a team, you've done it both, and the frightening reality of AI in the game industry. If you stick around to the end of this episode, I promise you'll

upgrade as a game dev. We start off the conversation discussing why he spends hours every single day streaming Insignia's development and whether or not maybe you should, too. And by the way, if you're interested in upgrading as a full-time gamedev, this video is sponsored by my own program, Full-Time GameDev. It's 40% off for the spring sale. If you enroll during the next 5 days, you'll get the massive discount, but also my 2D and 3D art programs. Learn to make games from an actual indie game dev, but also learn to get funding and go full-time indie before you even finish the game. There's only 100 seats available and 5 days left. Join 4,500 students worldwide by clicking the link below. Thanks. I mean, look, I started streaming because I knew that my game would fare the best if I had exposure like as in exposure from players, their impressions, what they thought about it, keeping me honest basically and

sometimes even like backseat kind of deving. I knew that that process would be better than me developing in isolation. So, it started as a way to think, well, you know, I need to be online. I need to be promoting the game, but I also need to be in a space where I'm not just in my own head for years on end. Um, and honestly now it's like the way that I am most like uh the way that I show up the most readily. Like if I'm just sitting around on like a Saturday trying to dev, I might have YouTube going on the corner. I might be distracted. I might be watching something. But on camera, it's like we have to be focused, you know, like I have to do the work. So I think it might be the reason why I've been able to do this for so long is just because I'm live. Wow. So you're not distracted. I mean to an extent it does provide a

little distraction. I have like the the privilege of having a a chat that is they move at like a really helpful pace and I think that might be the tone that I set just like keeping it a little more chill. you know, there might be, you know, few hundred people here and there across YouTube and Twitch, but they only really move uh in terms of like asking questions or adding feed feedback when I'm kind of like signaling that I'm looking for that. And we have a thing on stream called focus mode where I push a button and chat goes away and I can't see what they're saying for like 5 minutes. So, that kind of helps. Does it say it on screen or something? They know that my door is closed basically. Yeah, it's like focus mode. I can't see chat. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Um I usually call those uh silent streams where I'll I'll I'll turn on jazz music and it's like just leave me alone. And you know, it's interesting though because I I'm curious. I I I was watching one of your videos where you were talking about sort

of like revenue potential for like any revenue available from like YouTube or streams or Twitch or something. A lot of people are thinking maybe I should stream maybe I should stream my game. Yeah. Is it is it is it too much work to receive for the financial results? Look, I think I know the video you're referring to and that one became kind of cautionary like as I was making it because it started with me being like, hey, like this is just trying to be transparent about what's going on and how I have been doing this. And um it ended up as like a, hey, is this really what you want to do? like you see what I do and you see it that it might look like it's working for me, but like in reality it's really hard to have content creation be your like bread and butter uh in terms of like revenue. Um, I think I think for some, in fact, I think for most it might be a distraction, like an unworthy thing to chase if you're just trying to like be like a hobbyist game

dev or you're just trying to like get started and you don't have like a like a super solid strategy in mind. Um, whether or not it's something that I because I think the next question would be like should I have done it? Um, I think the only reason I did it was because it was working for me. Do you know what I mean? Like if it hadn't been It's like a magnetic thing, you know, that kind of once you have the revenue, you you keep chasing it. That's true. That's true. And I I I totally understand that. Um, the first time I started live streaming games, it was an accident. Uh, I I hit like record or I was I hit stream instead of record and I was just talking and then like for a video and then I sort of pivoted to pretend that it was actually live when the chat started showing up on the stream. Wow. But but then I realized that uh I'll speak from my perspective, you know, like it's one thing to make money off of YouTube

videos from like sponsorships or like selling a course or something. Mhm. Live streams are are different because especially live streaming gamedev because it is very intimate and you're building a very powerful um connected base that will almost definitely show up when you do launch your game. You know what I mean? Cuz they bet like they're making it with you, right? Yeah. And that leads me to my next question, which is does Insignia have a Steam page to get wish lists? No, it doesn't. Isn't that crazy? I saw that today and I was like, Adam, what are you doing? But I I assume you have a strategy. So, it's all part of the plan, man. Yeah. Okay. So, I guess for the last like I mean since I started streaming that's been a question of like, hey, just like throw up a Steam page, build a wish list, like why not? and something whenever I came to put the content together for the Steam page, um, it's had an itch.io page

since way back, like 2018. Um, and there was something that I noticed in my experience of having that page up where the game was going through such drastic changes in terms of like the art quality or the mechanics of the game still kind of were up in the air. It felt like if I'm promoting and trying to like get people invested in a product that 2 3 years from now might even look the same then is that really valuable to like say a publisher or whoever like I have my audience they're watching the YouTube channel they're watching the streams so the value of having this button be pressed that metric is worth something probably most to a publisher and to the Steam algorithm. And my thought process is that value is most powerful when it's

got velocity behind it. Like people wishlisting now, you know, so because I've still got probably like 2 years. That's like a lot of games full dev cycle ahead of me. Yeah. Like we're right around the corner. I'll be honest. We're like maybe a couple weeks, 3 weeks from having the Steam page drop. Um No way. Yeah. the other side of GDC, I think. Oh, that's great, dude. I'm excited for you. Yeah, I'm very nervous. Um, yeah, the idea is that like if we have a lot of that drive ready that when the button is pressed, it's really clear like the signal is much clearer than if it's spread out over like 7 8 years. It's easy to say, oh yeah, like you got, you know, 20k, 30k wish lists, but like how many of those were from like 2018 or 2019? Like, you know, it becomes a bit more questionable. That's all theory. I don't know if that's what I know. I think it I think it's true. I I've been really interested in wish list lately cuz uh I've been getting I I got a lot from from the demo launch of Twisted Tower. Yeah. Um from

Nexfest. So I think I can say how many we got we got like um it was 40,000 from like the the week prior. It's like a week and a half prior to NextFest and then NextFest. Now, there's a whole debate as to whether you should launch your demo prior to it, like a week prior to your next vest. But the reason I bring that up is I've been just really interested in wish lists and really digging into wish list because in my opinion, and I want to get your thoughts on this, um, not every wish list is the same, right? It's like some wish lists are way more valuable that like one wish list versus another wish list might be completely one might be worth zero and the other one might be worth, you know, it might even be worth more than your game because they'll show up for your next game and the next game and the next game. Yeah. Do you mean like in terms of sales like how it converts? Yeah. How it converts, right? Um it's and it's related to what you're saying which is look if you if you get a wish list from 5 years ago when insignia looks

completely different is that is that wish list even worth it you know I mean obviously I'm sure it's a wonderful person but in terms of a conversion to a sale is it worth it you know and so I think what your point is is that insignia has changed so much right um since the very beginning um That's that was the problem I had with my game because it started out with a completely different name. It was it was Sliver, then it became Father, then it became Happy Hotel, and then it became Twisted Tower. So, it's four iterations. Wow. All the while I was getting wish lists. And so, I think you're right. I think you're right. I think that maybe the first the people who who wishlisted those first three three when it was those first three names, they're not as valid, you know. Um, did Insignia really go through? Go ahead. Sorry. Oh, I mean I guess for me like the being pragmatic about it. It's probably like I don't

know how long your your dev cycle was on Twisted Tower, but I imagine the people who wishlisted probably still know who you are and associate the game you're making. So maybe the name is worth a little like your name kind of carries a little bit further than just the game name. Um, so maybe in your case it would be a little different. I'm actually I think your question was interesting, but I I'm stuck on a different question of like Yeah. Do you feel like I see a lot of um discussion online and there are a lot of like gurus who seem to like know the Steam algorithm and like explain to people how you should market your game and what you should what you should be doing. Do you feel like to some extent being a content creator those rules apply somewhat less to you in terms of like the reach that you have for your game?

Uh I I made a video about this today. I I didn't I haven't posted it yet, but it's a great question and I I was I've been thinking about it all the last two weeks because uh when you have an audience, you have a lever that you can pull and that audience you can immediately drive traffic to your to your Mhm. game, right? So, I think I'm I think I'm answering your question correctly. But what what I used to think was, well, I'll just build an email list and I'll build a social media presence and just drive traffic that way. Mhm. The thing is is that steam the Steam algorithm is this is what I'm told the Steam algorithm is watching those wish lists and it sees those wish lists and and if you have like let's say 50,000 wish lists you'll launch the game and the algorithm will immediately know to push you to the trending tab, right? So it's it's all it still all comes down to wish

lists I think. Um, even if you have an audience, but the rules I don't know if the rules are different. I just think that you and I have an unfair advantage. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, but is it unfair? Is it unfair? You You've worked Yeah, it's it's an advantage. You've worked your butt off to build what you've got, you know. So, you you deserve that lever. I mean, it truly is a lever. It's like when you're ready, dude, Adam, when you're ready to go get those wish lists, it's going to be you just turn it on and all of a sudden they start coming in. Especially if you have a demo. Yeah. Um they will just they will flood in. But does that answer your question? Yeah, I think so. Mostly I'm I'm thinking about like strategy like um even that question of like should you should you have wish lists going as early as possible and does someone do people like us um does that how do I put it? I guess the question really is does the Steam

algorithm care about recency and volume in that recent pattern? I guess that would be the real question. someone like you and I. Yeah, we can. What's your gut? I think so. I think every algorithm does. I think YouTube does. Yeah, that's how I think about it. But I will say I had a conversation with Chriski on Discord. You know Chris Sakowski? I do. Yeah. I had a conversation with him on Discord. I said I He was like it doesn't matter. He said like there's a subtle change between one month to three months, but once it's like two years old, it's all sort of flat lines in terms of its value. So after like 3 months, your wish lists all sort of have the same value for like the next two years. Mhm. Meaning they don't get cold to use sales language. They're always warm. And I he he was like it's not based on his gut. It's based on data that he's looked at. Like there's articles, maybe I'll link one below, but

he's got data and it's like it that the the wish lists just don't get cold and I don't get that. So his theory is wish list as early as possible. However, my publishers told me they don't they they're like, "No, we need to drop the demo 6 months prior to the launch of the game because we want those wish lists to be hot, you know." Yeah. So, I don't know. I think there might be maybe uh maybe there's like a second kind of channel that having recent wish lists kind of touches on and it's not necessarily wish lists but more just like visibility like um I mean particular like I kind of see it as and again this is like like I'm just some guy making some game. I don't you have way more experience with launching games than I do. So do you feel like to an extent like the the leverage that we're

talking about in terms of getting opportunities to have your game, you know, pushed further in platforms including Steam, but also outside of Steam, which it seems to be like that's a growing thing like Tik Tok and YouTube and um that kind of stuff. Those opportunities seem to be where you where a lot of the traffic comes from, the discovery comes from. It's like, is having that more viral kind of curve helpful in areas that aren't just the the Steam page or should it, you know, should we maybe just be thinking about, hey, they're going to be buying on Steam, that's where they are, so just have the signal all be there. Yeah, it's a good I think it's a great question. It's um what I've heard from from all of my publishers and all the developers I talked to, including David Whe, Edmond McMillan. I'm looking at my list right here on Discord. Edmond McMillan, David Whe uh who else

here? Um Jason Smith, he's a great oultic. Josh Chambers. Um my publisher Jonas Tyroller, the list goes on and on. These are all all these people are like prioritize steam, prioritize steam, prioritize steam, prioritize wish list, prioritize wish list, prioritize wish list. Granted, people like David Why, he made the first tree that the money he got from that was the majority of it was getting that one little pop from Nintendo Switch when Nintendo Switch like they featured him because he was early to Switch. So, but that's like that's like uh that's like trying to catch a what do they call it? Like trying to catch a dagger um you know on its way down or it's like trying to invest in Bitcoin. Uh it's like good luck you know to to to to hit it at the right time.

So that's console. Console to me is a big risk. I I've always said if it's not proven on Steam, don't port it to console. Um that's interesting. But then again, your game is so Zeldaesque that I'm like, that's a Switch game. Yeah, that's, you know, Switch 2, by the way. Has to be now. It could be both. Or Switch 3, depending on when you finish it, right? Do you know when I when I started working on the game, I was developing it, uh, thinking that maybe it would come out on the 3DS. That's crazy, Adam. Yeah. It was like, "Oh, um, I'm playing Shovel Knight on the 3DS. What are they doing in terms of like resolution and and like art size, and I should target that because that's what people are playing games on right now." Yeah, that's crazy. So, can I c can I shift gears here, Adam? There's a couple things I want to ask you. First one is, how are you full-time if I mean, are you living on beans and rice? And the reason I say that is because is

because you've been doing this for so long without releasing a game. You don't have a publisher. You're self-published, right? Yep. So, how's this working? What's the trick? All right. So, the first like year to like 3 years, like 2017 to 2020, I had been I I had only ever been very careful about saving my money. So, like um I worked a full-time job. I was a UX designer and um I had been doing that since like end of 2013, start of 2014. So, you know, I had a decent job and it was still like a starter salary, but it was like I was living at home with my parents, so I was just saving. Um, so I had about like 60k saved. This is Australian dollars, but you know, I'm living in Australia, so it's all relative. Yeah, that's great, though. Um, yeah, I had like 60k saves and I was like, I'm going to spend I'm going to make this last like 2 years at least and we'll see where I go from

there. And that's kind of what happened. It it kind of I kind of burned through like all of my life savings in that first couple of years. And then um I sort of could see the curve. I could see it, you know, declining. And I was like, okay, how do I how do I glide instead of fall here? So the company that I used to work for um they were still taking on a lot of contracts and um they had opportunities for me if I wanted them and so about 3 4 months in a year I would work part-time as a contractor for them. So I'd still stream I'm still making the game but it's like in the mornings I'm doing UX contracting in the afternoons I'm streaming. So that I tried to like the goal was to do less of that over time and more gamedev over time. And by like 2019 the the YouTube channel which I just started as like a I'm going to share vlogs and tutorials about what I'm

working on that went from like zero to like 100k subscribers in like a year and a half. So end of 2019 I'm thinking okay well I'm streaming. I've become a partner now. I'm a YouTuber. I'm making a little bit of money. If I just like cut the parachute here and like just grind a little more on content, I might be able to make up for the difference by the time I run out. That's kind of what happened. Like I just I just made it work. And it would it was really weird. like opportunities would come in terms of like sponsorships or um jobs that were like ever so slightly more towards gamedev as I was as my my connections were like fading away from the previous opportunities. So like um like last year I had like a a sponsorship to do a game jam sponsored by Game Maker to use that

for the first time 5K or something which is not a lot of money but like that was pretty clutch for me cuz I was like I needed that 5k and and um as an opportunity like it's very like relevant to what I'm doing because it's like in my space I got to stream it like but that that only comes because I had committed so much time to becoming the, you know, streamer and the YouTuber. So, um, look, it really has been like I've been like, if we're using the glider analogy, I've been like coasting like 5t above the the ground for like a while. Um, and then like yeah, like mid last year, I was awarded I applied for and was awarded two grants here in Australia, which then just made it all much more viable. Um, yes. So it went from a solo project to a team project literally in a span of like two months. I went from like yeah pitching to do it with a team to having the team and doing

it. And um we just wrapped chapter one the content side like on Friday. So um their contracts are pretty much like put on like uh pretty much completed now until we get some more funding. And that's kind of where I'm at. Yeah. Okay. That is that is uh it sounds like very similar to to the way my life has been for the last decade of just like wherever the wherever I could find the money, you know, and it's sort of derivative of gamedev, I'll go and get it if I can. And it's it's stressful for me because and I want to ask you about the stress levels, but it's stressful for me because if I smell the money, I'll go get it. I'm like a hunt. I'm like a a hound because I'm I am my nature is sort of fearful. So I'm always like it's going to the shoe's going to drop, I'm going to lose the money and I'm never going to be able to do this again. So I say yes to everything and I know that I

shouldn't. Um, it's very, it's just so tempting to say like sponsorship here, sponsorship there, go get that, grant here, publisher there, you know, and I know I sound kind of like a whiny baby because a lot of people would kill for that, but it's it can be a problem in the sense that you're always trying to protect yourself financially. Yeah. My question for you is, do you do you feel stressed? Do you feel the do you feel the temptation to like always try and get some level of uh financial security? I mean for me and I I would say like it's the one thing that I regret most. Pardon me. I'm just going to Yeah. For me, I mean, it's it's probably the thing that I regret most about doing this this way, like taking all this time to work on one big game, is that the pressure, like the stress related to just is the game going to be successful? Will I ever have the opportunity to work on another game

again like this? Have I wasted opportunities that I would have other otherwise been able to take because I was doing it this way? That stress is like really detrimental. like it's really hurt me as a person to be living that way for so long and um like I could see tangibly how it's like affected my mindset around money and sense of security and myself and things like that for sure like it's like obvious yeah to chase to chase sponsorships to chase content and and Patreon patron supporters and h you know weirdly I I have this thing and It's I can't I don't know if it's naive or like I don't know if it's worth having, but I have this like real stubbornness to do things my way. So, I almost feel like maybe because I know how much like I've seen how much I've

changed to to be secure that I don't want to change much more. like I don't I don't want to be um the guy who isn't making games because it's not as lucrative as doing sponsorship deals. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Um, and I know that they're not, you know, mutually exclusive and if you have the resources, you can kind of balance things a lot better. But um for me, because it's always been just me, literally any time that I'm spending and I I have this real struggle with my YouTube content, like the content that does the best is like beginner tutorials on Unity or a Sprite, but the content that I want to make is like super niche deep dives into design philosophy and or or just talking about my game or something, but like that's not necessarily what is going to bring in the most attention. And so if I'm trying to scale my audience and just make

revenue, like it's it's really like do you do you want to do content or do you want to do game dev? And so I try to as much as possible preserve the gamedev stuff because that's really what I'm here for. But um I mean if you have the the the reach and the opportunity to straddle that, that's a great privilege. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the stress of a team. Um, you know, you've got you've got the financial burden. So, you're kind of the CFO. Yeah. You're the accountant. You're the bookkeeper. You're also a manager. Now, right. Can we talk really quick about solo dev versus working with a team? Now, I'm not going to ask you to throw your team under the bus. Uh, I'm sure they're wonderful, but I would I would love an honest opinion about what do the two feel like? you know, like I I'll speak for me there is an intimacy that I used to have with my games. It was a it was a

romance. I don't know how else to describe it. Um, and then when you bring a team in, obviously it's incredible there. You wake up one morning, you pull down from Git and you've got whoa, all these features are implemented and all these levels are done, but that intimacy is gone. So that I'll speak for me. My team was incredible in 2024. I don't have a team anymore. Um, but uh my team was incredible in 2024. Felipe, I love you. He was an amazing 3D artist and he was a really good friend. Um, but I I told this to him. I said, "I want to be back. I want to be touching the models. I want to be um feeling their warmth. It's so it's just it's an intimate romantic thing to to be solo." Um, so I'm solo now. So, I wanted to get your opinion there. Sorry

if that's a little weird, but that's how I feel. I get it. I think um there is for me I might not be the best person to answer this question or at least I might not be the best Adam to answer this question because I might be in like a honeymoon phase right now where the amount of like pre-production that I've done on this game. The amount of art assets and writing and code and even music that I did before anybody even touched it gave me so much authority and I guess um like creative runway to basically drive exactly what the team's been doing really carefully. Um, so like you know, someone's writing some music. Um, Morgan, our composer, she might be writing some music for the title theme, and I'm like, here's the title theme that I did. Let's start there, and we'll

we'll work with it. Um, or um, you know, Elias might be working on some sound effects, and I'll be like, "Oh, here's the item pickup sound effect that I started with, and I'm I was trying to do this, so could you try, you know, playing around with that and seeing where it takes you?" So what I've been really grateful for is the fact that that creative runway has given us a lot of space for um I think the team to build a lot of trust as well. Like now like the last I don't know 2 months the sound effects it's kind of just like I trust you dude you just do you and it's going to sound great and it does. Um, so I think it's really important to build that trust. If if the team gets it and if you can give them enough time and space to get it, at least from where I am right now, it's like much much um more likely that when they do make their own imp

like uh impression on it that it feels still like that intimate thing that I started. Um, but I can definitely see, especially like now that we're in like the last couple of weeks have been like a little bit tighter time wise and I haven't like had as much time to handhold. Yeah, I can see where time compromises come in and you go, well, I just I would have done this differently, but like we don't have time to do another iteration on it, so um I got to choose between like doing it on top of their work um or accepting it or making them go back and do it faster or um compromises do happen. In fact, I've had a little bit more of that experience um with our we've got like an animated sort of trailer coming out to accompany the Steam page when it does drop. Um that I've had much more of that experience because it's it's a team that I haven't had as much time with and it's kind of like my first time directing uh like a an animation and

I've also got the game that I'm working on. So, it's like there's it's a lot more hands-off. So, there's a lot more of me going, well, you know, maybe my my signature isn't as like tight on this as it would have been if I was just doing it myself. So, yeah, I I can definitely feel it. Would you uh would you say your your vision has been compromised at all? Do you know what? Um, I feel like that could easily have been a question that could have made like working with teams bad. But I think the last couple of years what I've come to learn is that compromise is part of creativity. Like you have to compromise to make anything. So, even when I was solo, there are things that I've had to compromise because of, you know, maybe things that I wanted to be in the game

that I thought would be fun weren't fun because players just didn't enjoy it or they didn't get it. Um, and so I'd have to compromise, say, the difficulty of the game to match players expectations. Um, and sure, yeah, time-wise, in production, yeah, there are compromises, but like that's I think part of being a mature developer and a director is or or a producer is like understanding, hey, like this is what we've decided we're making, and this is the opportunity we have to make it one thing or another, and we can't have it be all things. So, to some extent, there's going to have to be compromises. And part of my job is making sure that we make the right compromises. So I I think that's Yeah. Well, specifically, you know, I I sometimes I felt it didn't matter who I was working with. I mean, even back to when I was working on Never Song, there was a guy I was working with, his name was Eric or

AJ or Felipe or Gordon who worked on Twisted Tower. I felt sometimes I felt sometimes I felt like just saying yes to their ideas and their work because I didn't want to be mean. Uh like the relationships became so friendly and so wonderful and so like we were just hanging out having a good time that and I'll do this on live streams by the way. Yeah. I'll be live streaming and someone will have an idea in the live stream and then it will derail me and I'll work an hour on something that I shouldn't. Um, you know, like, uh, Jason, you were in the, uh, the live stream yesterday, and Jason is Jason is watching the podcast right now doing the technical work, but, um, you Jason, you were watching the live stream where I I started spending all this time working on these unicorns going up and down on the carousel. And it's like that's not really necessary, but because I feel so

friendly and I feel like my live stream we're having we're having a we're all having a good time. You kind of forget about the the game because you're more worried about the social aspect. Did you ever feel that way with your team? Yeah. And and with my stream, like I have that experience 100%. There are definitely things that are just more fun to work on on stream and there's like a pull to be biased towards stuff that's just more visual or more creative or more offthe-wall. um like our level designer/an animator Luca uh because we know each other personally, there's a degree to which like I know as the director and lead developer and designer and blah blah blah that I've designed a certain mechanic to work a certain way or I've written certain characters to fill a certain role in the story. And say we're working on side quests. Luca might have ideas for what a character might say or where they might be in a level or even uh what kinds of challenges to place

between one thing and another. And I'll just say flatly like, "Oh, no, that doesn't work." And it feels bad because it's like it feels like I'm just stepping on someone else's idea. Um, and to some extent, I think practically, like, if I'm being super honest, it's usually because I've got a good reason. It's not just that I decided it would be that way. It's like I just know things about the project more intimately than he does. So, I know for other reasons why this character can't be here because, you know, it doesn't fit or I've got a reason why they need to be somewhere else later. So um sometimes there's that and we do there is like a kind of like a relationship management that you've got to do where you are you do want to foster that collaborative feeling of like no ideas are bad but also please run all your ideas by me because you can't just put them in cuz they won't yeah it won't come together cohesively otherwise. Um, but at the same time, like his eye for level design being

different to mine has created some really cool stuff, like things like if I'm developing mechanics, he finds a way to use those mechanics in like a toy box kind of mindset of like, oh, Adam made this thing. what can I do with this that I just don't have because I built the things with one perspective in mind and I'm I've kind of like tunnel visioned on like one scenario that this mechanic could be used in. So it's also really valuable that the team members have that space because they add creativity to it. It's just that yeah you have to sort of also cultivate and prune. Um yeah yeah it's you know you've got you got relational stress you've got scheduling stress the moment you introduce a team um Jason did you have a question about the development stress or the the the funding stress yeah I actually had a question I know you uh have been working

on this like seven plus years so there's obviously like a level of perfectionism there cuz yeah you don't get to that point without working on it that long um when you introduced the grant I think I heard you say on stream one time that there's um some strings attached to them like deadlines or whatnot. Have you found that that changes the way you work? Like are you are you saying like it's good enough ship it um on certain features or do you do you still have that same level of perfectionism now that you're uh under the grants? Uh look, the grants the biggest pressure that they created honestly was more to do with how the budget was spent and when it would be spent by. So particularly because I pitched the grant under the you kind of have to propose a milestone. So the milestone that I proposed was the completion of a demo and part of the budget would go towards promotion of that demo um or using the demo in a promotional sense to acquire more

funding. And because GDC happened to roll around around this time that created like an artificial deadline that meant that we had to get a whole bunch of stuff lined up and the money spent on that stuff before like GDC basically. So um other than that genuinely this grant has been they've been really like Screen Australia and Screen New South Wales have been very accommodating very few strings. I think the biggest thing that anyone's kind of there's been any drama about around the grants um at least locally was they there is like a stipulation or like a contract kind of clause where like they want to know if you're looking to sell your IP like who you're going to sell it to before you do that which makes to me perfect sense because they're funding the project and their names associated with so if you have like a government body um with their name on something it can't just suddenly become like a pentagame or

something. So um so yeah like uh apart from that I mean it's been pretty much like hey just tell us like at the at the start like you have to propose this is what we're spending the money on this is these are the activities we'll be doing this is the outcomes as long as you're doing that it's been pretty cruisy. Um, yeah. And I I think again, gosh, maybe this is like I go back and forth on whether or not the way that I've done this is like actually a good way to do it or if it's just like Adam being a perfectionist. But because I spent enough time knowing exactly what I'm making creatively, like what I'm working on right now is stuff that I creatively mentally signed off on in like the start of 2023. like it's it's like throwing, you know, the fullcourt basketball and then just like having to watch it over like two years land because like it just

takes that long. And maybe that's just because the game is in its production values or just what I'm trying to achieve like uh out of my scope in terms of just like what one person should be able to make. Um, but the vision I feel like it's it's one of those things where if you're a player and you start making games, like the first thing that you want to make is usually the thing that like inspired you the most as a kid or at least that's what it was like for me where it's like, man, I love these Game Boy Advance games and I want to make something that feels like, you know, a PS2 game mixed with this Game Boy game and I just want to make that. So for me it's like the standard is like the the mechanical novelty of it is something you can write on a napkin, you know, it's just like really straightforward, but the execution of it to make it, you know,

what would have been like a AAA handheld game 20 years ago or whatever, there's so much attention to detail and love and care that you have to do just to get the execution right that I think for games of that time or even just consumer projects ineneral general products in general, there's just like a layer of polish and quality that if you don't get it right, you kind of like don't connect with the players the same way. Like it just doesn't feel like it lands. So most of the development is like trying to do justice to those napkin ideas in a way that feels like it's obvious and intuitive and easy. Um, and yeah, I think like having all of that stuff, like all those values set and all of the things that I knew I was going to make, like the last this grant has been basically just me and the team rebuilding a part of the game that I'd

already built. So, there aren't that many unknowns, you know? Oh, man. That's that's just I I I found that to be true as well is is it's almost like you're I've talked about this before, but it's almost like you're you're uncovering and digging up this game like it's an archaeological dig. Um you're discovering it and and and that is such a painstaking process. It's a really lengthy, expensive process of figuring out what the game is. And and that brings me to to your art style because I I look at your art style and then I look at AI art and I'm like there's no way there's no I just think I just think there's no way that AI art or AI can replicate what Adam has created here because there's just something really really special about insignia. I was watching your live stream a couple days

ago and there's my heart immediately was like back when I was 10 back when I was like 10 years old. Thank you. Um and Jason I do you feel that way about Insignia? It's like this classic Zelda vibe. I mean not to fan girl too much but the devs for that are kind of what got me into game dev like to actually try it. So Wow. Yeah. Thank you. It's a very nostalgic feeling. And and my point is is that I'm just sitting here going it I I'm thinking about AI a lot. I mean I talk about it with every guest. I'm I'm trying to get every guest predict to make predictions so that they can all fall flat. I'm kidding. But like even even like Ken Lavine was like I'll tell you what I think about AI, but just know that I'm probably wrong. So my question to you is can do you think AI will be able to create something like insignia? All right. I've had this is like a topic that I've put a lot of thought into. So, we could be spending the next half an hour talking about this, but um I think

that can I lay out like a bit of a I'll lay out a thing. So, I think like we talk about this idea that like nothing is truly original and I think that there is such a I think there is originality. I think that exists and it usually requires like people to go outside the bounds of like creatively what's being explored to make something original and new. And I think AI doesn't it because of the way it's generated. It's not really good at that like making stuff that's like completely offthe-wall. You've never seen it before because it's trained right on stuff that exists. That said, I think most of what creativity is in like our industry or in most industries is actually finding valuable stuff between the points of what exists right now. So like you take this genre and this genre and you find

the midpoint that's valuable or somewhere in the middle. And I think AI is really good for that. I think it's really really good for taking, you know, the peanut butter and the chocolate and finding the Reese's peanut butter cup or whatever. Yeah, that's a good metaphor. And it probably will always be an intelligent person guiding the AI to find that mix or that thing. Like I see on Tik Tok, I'm kind of like obsessed with these um galleries that people put together of like screenshots they've cured of like they're just images that kind of feel like an like an impressionist painting, kind of like a Studio Ghibli film fantasy thing. And it's like, man, I would love to play a game that looked like this. Now, the question of like whether AI is going to like you push a button and you get the game, I mean maybe in the far future, but um to speak

to like what it is that is hard for AI to do and that I think when we say like AI could never do this, I think it's like there are so many different things that have to come together for a game to be that are happening on so many different levels that it's not it's kind of naive to think that just the visual style or a soundtrack or something is what makes it feel that way. Yeah. Um like we agon I in the last week I've spent maybe 12 hours on like one cut scene in the game. Um it's the most important one. It's like when the player character kind of like discovers the mechanic in the game basically like the the powers. So it's is at the start of the game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like within the first 45 minutes. um that cut scene it's like figuring

out, okay, do we linger the camera on the player character at this zoom level here and then pull out to show the big central mechanism or do we show the mechanism and then wait while it powers up and then we see the you know and it's like and what do the V effects look like? Is it a beam of light coming up and we put a noise filter on that and we like you there are so many creative decisions that go into that that if you don't have like a continuity of like direction like it needs to be this way because we've got to do this or that or that then it just becomes aimless it just becomes like kind of mushy and I think that's what AI tends to be bad at like just falling into these pit holes uh like pitfalls of like yeah the vibe is right but it's not specific. enough to mean something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's uh I think that's why when you look at AI art, subconsciously, you know, like I don't

even know if there's a a technical reason why I can point out AI art. I just feel it. It's a smell. It's like a That's the best way I could describe it. It just smells rotten. Now, I'm not opposed to AI. Um, I think AI is great in a lot of ways. Uh, I use I use it to code all day. I mean, I'm using uh Claude Grock, Chad GPT. There's also this cool thing. I think it's called I can't mention it actually. It's a sponsor for another video. But, um, it's like integrated into Unity and Okay, I'm all about it. I think it's great, but I I am struggling. I'm struggling emotionally, I guess. In my heart, I'm struggling with the idea that that the the more front-facing artistic things about games could potentially be replicated. Um, like it would pain me to see an AI make

something like Insignia. Like, let's pretend AI made something just like Insignia and it has all of the delicious. Like the game, by the way, the game feel in your game is so punchy and crunchy and good, and the sounds are just perfect, and there's so much nostalgia baked into it. And it would it would make me feel so sad if Grock spit out a game like Insignia, even if it was was just as good and it was just as fun and it was awesome and players loved it, I would be sad. I would be sad about it. Why? Why do you think you would be sad? I don't know. I just feel like I don't know. I That's what I It's kind of a question, you know? Would you be sad? Obviously, you'd be sad cuz like it's just it just made your 10-year project in in a second, but like do you know what I mean? It's sad. I think there's like three three ways to think about it. The first is like me me economically, like financially, like it would be sad for me because I wouldn't be able to

like profit or whatever off of the work that I've done. So, that would be sad because it would be Yeah. devalued. The second concern, which you know, maybe I would be sad, maybe I wouldn't, would be whether it would take away my opportunity to express myself. Like if there's like a 100 insignas out there, but this one is mine and there is an audience who's playing it. That might be enough for me, I think. Yeah. Um, just to be able to express myself creatively and have people respond to it and see, you know, feel something. And then the third would be the market and what it's like to have 100 signs, 100 insignas just like out there. And that I think I would feel sad because I I think mass- prodduced uh entertainment media, it does this thing where it takes away our ability to have like collective conversations about things. Like if we're all playing our own personalized insignia, then none of us are playing the one that was made by

that one guy. And like it's like watching a TV show. Like we're watching Severance at the moment. And the the way that everyone's talking about Yeah. The way that everyone's talking about it, it's like special. It's like the thing that Game of Thrones was or, you know, whenever, you know, whatever indie game, Celeste and Hollow Knight. Celeste and Hollow Knight and and Dead Cells when the Switch was coming out. having that like this is the game we're playing and let's all talk about it. That to me is really special as like a consumer. So like as a player that would be sad if we were all just playing our own personalized games. What do you What do you think about a human-made badge that is signed to a game and it's it's cryptographically signed to Steam games and somehow it goes through a verification process and there are certain aspects

the artistic ones and I'm not necessarily I I guess I'm kind of saying that C and coding isn't necessarily an art as much as like the graphics and the music. I'm kind of saying that, but like what do you think about a badge that it appears on Steam games and it's like the art in this game, the music, the the story, all of this is humanmade? Do Do they already have Do you have to disclaim? You have to you have to disclose it. But who's to say I mean you know who who do we trust these people like thousands of Steam games you know it's more like I just feel like there's there is an industry for humanmade verification because like if I'm playing a game don't do you agree with this if if I'm playing a game and I know who made it and I know I know the story behind it it's so much more fun it's so much more exciting

to play the game like if if me and Jason and play Insignia. Mhm. We're going to love it by default because we know you, you know, right? Uh I think gosh, you're going to get me down the rabbit hole here on on game design. I have this like manifesto that I'm brewing. Um Oh, great. about games as like a a conversation between the the developer and the player. Um kind of like a one-way conversation, but there's a bit of two-way as well. Um, and I think that's the part that it feels like you're speaking to of like if you like when we played my wife and I played Animal Well together and it was like the fact that this was made by one person, you could feel you felt safe. I think when playing the game, you're you could feel safe making intuitions about how the game was unfolding because you knew that one person came up with all

this stuff. So if something resolves a certain way, you think, how does this guy think? Does this change? Like can I anticipate that it's going to that there'll be a hidden room here because there was a hidden room over there and he likes to do that or you know, we haven't felt a weird secret in a while. So maybe there'll be something here. That like feeling like you're getting to know the developer and then making choices based on that. I feel like that's really special. So I don't know if playing a game made by an AI would still have that. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it's likely, but it to me and I I'll end with this cuz I got a hard stop in 5 minutes, but sure. I'll end with this, man. I I feel like you're right. I feel like that that's given me this feeling of the age of the aur the age of the the handcrafted the I hope this is true it's like a dream of mine the handcrafted game is the most valuable not the

biggest not even the funnest the most exciting the AAA world crumbles because people want intimacy with a project and Intimac intimacy is hard to come by right now across the board. Whether it's relationships, whether it's family, community, uh social, I mean freaking Instagram has AI now that pretends to be people so that you don't feel lonely. Yeah. Horrifying. Um it's like no thank you. So like the age of intimacy uh is here. And that's why to wrap this up, I think it's a great book end to, you know, you've you even the way you talk is so gentle and softspoken. I'm sure people say this in the chat all the time to you, but it's right. And I I'm sure they do. Um, and I think that that I think you represent potentially the crux um of of indie

gamedev, which is like we're transitioning to a community-based type of making games. It I think it's the only way to survive as an indie is building a community around your game. I I think it's tough. I think it's really really hard to just release a game. You've got to build that community while you're building the game. Yeah. Yeah. I think stories is a big part of it and the story of how a game was made and even the story of the community that produced the developer. I think like as an indie that's like what makes it special for me beyond like as a player you you experience these worlds and you go wow what's it like to be on the other side of making these worlds and then you start making things and you go wow look at all these other people just like me making something and isn't that special and it yeah I agree I think it's like that connection and that intimacy even is something that it is harder to come by. And yeah, it's I mean

definitely don't saddle all of that on me specifically, but um like well I'm kind of I'm kind of speaking about myself if I'm being honest cuz like or I'm I'm uh I'm making myself look good too here uh or bragging because that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to build a community around my projects and sort of create this, it's probably just based out of fear, but just like this safety net of community around my games, sort of protect to protect the games cuz I'm I'm getting a little scared. I'm like, if I were if I were to just drop my games on the Steam storefront right now without a community, I don't think they would work. I don't think they would sell. Um, you think so? Why? Why is that? No, they're not good enough. Do Does that motivate you to make them better? Uh, no. I mean, I That's honest. That's fair. I like my games. I like I like my games. I think they're great. Uh, but they're niche and they're artsy

and they're emo and, you know, I don't know if I don't know if the community would show up. Um, well, thank you. But anyway, dude. Oh, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Um, yeah. So, the reason I've got a hard stop here is because uh I'm selling my house. So, this studio is going away. Um, so people are coming. Yeah, it is. So, people are people are going to be here in 5 minutes to come walk through this this office here. Um, this was so good, man. Thank you so much for hanging out and and talking. My pleasure. I know. I learned it. I learned a ton. You're a really cool guy. Um, hey, what do you want in the description? Oh, like the description? I mean, yeah. links or there's no Steam page. So, I'm sitting here like, what do I do? Uh, sure. I think uh definitely like start with the YouTube channel. Um, just yeah, my channel would be great. Uh, I will be

putting links and trailers and stuff. They'll be on the YouTube channel so people can find me there. Otherwise, like I'm even streaming on YouTube now, too. So, um, the Twitch stream is a a big one, but there's links to if you want to find my stuff and you're on you happen to be on my YouTube page, you'll find links to all the other stuff. So, yeah, Adam Cunis Insignia. Remember that. All righty, everybody. Check out Adam below. Thank you so much, Adam, for hanging out. This was really, really fun. Thanks, Tom. Cheers, man. And by the way, if you're interested in upgrading as a full-time gamedev, this video is sponsored by my own program, Full-Time GameDev. It's 40% off for the spring sale. If you enroll during the next 5 days, you'll get the massive discount, but also my 2D and 3D art programs. Learn to make games from an actual indie game dev, but also learn to get funding and go full-time indie before you even finish the game. There's only 100 seats available and 5 days left. Join 4,500 students worldwide by

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