Talking Game Dev with Sylvester Hansen

click the buttons and then we're gonna wait a second and then hopefully we're gonna be like alright okay so you just say when yeah I think we're life but there's a bit of delay on the stream though so seem to work alright okay so who are you I am from Denmark I am currently working on a video game called the chain broke which is a stealth puzzle game that I'm hoping we're gonna talk a bit more about in a second Italy yes I think mainly I think my biggest asset is that I've been in this industry for like on the fringes of the industry for almost five years now and this game I'm working on currently is then my first commercial movies okay so I'm gonna introduce

myself as well real quick because we're probably gonna upload this to both channels sir I'm Jonas and I'm current also currently working my first game and I'm a complete new a complete starter in the indie scene I've been making games for a very long time but I'm just starting to get serious about it I guess and I don't have that much experience that much development experience but I'm trying my very hardest to build a cool game and I cool YouTube channel I have a YouTube channel where I document the entire process process of making a game and yeah if you're interested in that have a look so yeah telling you about I have a youtube channel as well not surprised yes in which I document my development as well but I also give some tips and tricks for aspiring game developers all right

already have three guys on the screen yeah I don't know two guys Milan and go pixels who's always here that's awesome okay so could you just tell me a bit about your game I didn't quite catch yet yeah sure so my game is a very simplistic strategy game and by simplistic I mean very simplistic you just have to use the mouse and two buttons left mouse button and the rice not mouse button you can't control your units there's no resource management there are no buildings that your units just move around randomly more or less and you can either turn them into X with one mouse button that means they're gonna turn into an egg they're vulnerable for a certain amount of time and then they split into two creatures so that's how you create new units and then the way you attack with your units is that you make them explode with the other mouse button so one one mouse button is for duplicating them and

getting more units and one mouse button is for detonating them and dealing damage all right sure what was your inspiration to make this game actually I made a tutorial on my German youtube channel a while ago and I just wanted to make a short experimental game and I just basically did things that were easy to do so I just created something that was easy to create and then suddenly I thought oh this is kind of interesting I haven't seen that before that plays kind of well so that's what I want to turn it into a full game I think into a complete steam release did you the day like it no it was really just based on my personal experience because I play a lot of RTS

games and I have never seen something like that before a lot of casual RTS games you know I I think there's a niche I can get into with this game because it's so simple it's more or less the simplest strategy game I've ever seen that might not be entirely true but I just out of my mind I cannot come with any with anything that's simpler you say is there a lot of depth to the game I'm not sure yet honestly so far there is quite a bit of depth you can do quite a quite a bit of different things can but it will depend a lot on the level design and on the rest of the feature so I think just the mechanics themselves provide quite a bit of depth but the rest will have to come from the level design I guess yeah sure and when do you

expect to be finished with the game I mean it will take pretty much as long as it takes I am NOT under any kind of time pressure here so I just want to release a good game and as soon as the game is good enough and as soon as I have enough attention for my game that I feel comfortable releasing it I will release it and I'm planning to do that in about one year maybe in two years something like that so I'm I'm six week into development now and I'm just trying to create a vertical slice more or less so just a couple of levels but really polished so you can get a good feel if this works or maybe it doesn't work then then I'll just scrap it and start on another project but we'll see so maybe you can tell us a little more about your game your games called the chain broke yeah what is your game all about so I'm

just gonna screen share while I do this because I think that might be more fun so you can actually see the game okay I'll just go to the screen then so people can see your screen now your full screen now fantastic and it's just there we are so in the chain broke you play as this little girl she saying we cannot see anything yet oh you can't see anything yet nope you just say when then okay did you press the button are you sure you pressed the back I'm crazy can you just can you see me oh yeah I didn't okay you see the screen now yes now we can consider fantastic okay these are always the best well the first thing we can see here is that you're developing your game in unity yeah yeah I've been developing this game for almost a year now just over a year now um and it

actually came into fruition when another project I've been working on for a while sort of fell through hmm and when that game fell through I've been working on a game with a couple of friends of mine and when that fell through I was sitting there with an AI on my hands the very first day I had ever programmed and I realized I actually might have something interesting there so we've been developing a game that had a lot of depth outside of just the AI and I realized that might be enough in the AI alone okay so which AI are you talking about can we can with that in this case I mean I'm not talking any narrative AI am talking the actual AIS individual elements within the the enemy AI the enemy AI so in the what you see now is

the first couple levels of the game so you play as this little girl called 3cs wakes up in a room full of bottle people and essentially what you have to do is figure out what exactly happened to the human race and on the way there I can you see if I can give you a quick glimpse of the of the AI hmm you clever people we read robots and there's no combat mechanic there's no way of actually attacking the robots the best thing you can do is run you can't even really hide as such you can run around corners and that's gonna hide you from their line of vision but you can actually like crawl or Crouch under something so here we have one of the robots you can see it's wearing a mask that I intentionally designed to be you know uncanny valley uncomfortable okay I'll pass this weird

mask yeah yes oh if I run in right now it's gonna start contain syringes of me and then it's gonna look around for a second if it doesn't find me again which it did it's gonna go back to the starting position you see here okay so that's the syringes being tossed of my face and again this particular AI was just did following me and then looking around it was something I had when the other project fell through and I realized there might be enough of a video game in that so I started developing a story around the AI I'm just gonna stop sharing the screen now because my computer is going well you're definitely developing a story-driven game yeah so it's very much a narrative game yeah that's not really about the AI

but about the narrative yeah because I also think from what I've seen so far the is not exactly the most interesting part about this it's I would say relat relat if Li basic I mean just following you I think I've seen that in a couple of games but the way your your environment looks is definitely more interesting to me those yellow highlights you had in in that scene and all the things that are on the wall I I'm definitely intrigued to find more about that one of the my background is in design and one of the things I realized relatively quickly when I started developing video games is I'm never gonna be a great programmer I'll I mean I like programming and it's fun but I'm never gonna be the one to develop something that's truly original on that side but where I do stand relatively

strongly is in design and writing yeah so when I had this game that I tested it out about a month after like I created a very quick horizontal slice of the game in about a month to try and test it out and see how much time I could get people to actually spend with this particular game mmm and I just made some very quick level design it was all made in with standard assets nothing was great but people ended up spending 45 minutes with just this AI okay and very little else okay and that was when I realized that there might be a full game here okay like added in a little bit of narration and a few more like subtle mechanics there might be enough in just the central AI for like a full game so you you went the smarter route and actually let people play your game before you started developing it yeah

a good idea it's always great to get people's feedback but it's also very scary to do that because people don't like just do not care what it takes to actually make a video game yeah good pixels just gave me some feedback on my game as well I think I think that wasn't my game or was it Sylvester's game I like this game concept but when you want to earn some money with your game you actually need to put in more variety I think that was for my game but if you like if you if you like to ask us any questions on in the chat feel free to do so we're probably happy to answer them okay sorry what what what I was just going to say in terms of variety yeah you're six weeks in right yeah sure I think really when it comes to right if you're if you're planning on a longer run with a game like this I think if you

if the central mechanic is good just iterating on that is gonna provide the robot the variety you're looking for so I don't think that's something you need to worry much about if you're if you're confident in yourself through a mechanic I'm relatively confident and central mechanic but it also cannot stay the way it is right now I can definitely see that so we'll have to add something I just think I don't really feel like I want to add anything more to the controls because I like that the control scheme is that simple and I like that you only have one kind of unit and there are just two actions you can do with that unit so I'd like to keep it simple in that way but I'd like to a ton of different enemies and a ton of different objects you can interact with and hopefully we will get some cool gameplay and some cool mechanics this way so yeah I think I think that I think

that might be a good idea and also I would encourage you to try out your game as quickly as you can yeah definitely I'll I'll have to I'm always saying I'll release a version that my viewers can play but then I don't do it because I think I need to add this before I give it to them I have no maybe I need to add this they're saying that perfectionism is the enemy of of development or is the enemy of creative work I think eventually you have to weigh one against the other which is more important that you get the feedback from so you can actually make sure you're developing something your player based once or that it gets to exactly where you want it to go hmm my guidance so just for just for my viewer

base what is your background where do you come from my background is I'm basically basically just got out of school and now I'm studying game design in Berlin and yeah we'll see what what's next maybe I will continue studying there maybe I'll just do my own thing I I don't really know yet we'll see so is it a school for game design or is game yeah it's a university hula I don't know the English word for that everything this one but I do know what you're talking about okay and actually it's it's really cool there I really enjoy it because you have a lot of projects a lot of game projects in small teams and you can develop pretty

much whatever you want there are some some constraints but it's it's really awesome so I definitely want to go back there just for the project and after that we'll see so you have do you have any long-term plans for the future where where are you headed with your game development and with your YouTube channel the YouTube channel it's more of a see where it goes sort of situation mm-hmm I definitely want to keep developing I'll keep making videos on the YouTube channel just because I think I have something to say that I don't think a lot of other channels are actually putting out there um as for the game originally I thought I was going to be able to release it in August of this year and I still think a version is going to

be released around then but asked for it's actually coming out on Steam that's probably gonna have to wait until January of next year mm-hmm but that's a very I won't call it underhanded but it's definitely a calculated decision on my part no good games really come out in January so if I put my game out in January there's a slim chance that I might be able to get a little bit of attention from some of the bigger journalistic sources in our industry GameSpot ITIN those social places okay a little interruption because I have to change the caption of the stream it was still that - Jonah's first stream but let's change it to game talk with the ster handsome how do you write your surname doesn't really matter it will we'll fix it later okay yes sorry where were we you when will you

release the game in 1 one year or how long yeah just just under a year ok I'm giving myself a lot of time yeah between - a year is not even all that much honestly a year is not even all that much a year passes really quickly a year passes super quickly especially when it comes to game dev because it's just there just so many things that you have to take care of and a lot of it I've never tried before I've never actually put something out on Steam I don't know what the process is there I'm gonna have to make a company now that's also me hey taxes um there's just a whole host of things that have never actually done before so I'm giving myself what I consider to be ample time right now but there's a good chance that when time comes and I actually have to put the game out I'll be panicked because it didn't give myself enough time I think

developing your game is just a really small portion of all the work you need to do maybe not a small portion but it's maybe 50% I'm alone now now that I'm doing YouTube it's moral it feels more like 25% like that I mean a lot of it is I also only started doing the YouTube video after videos after a year of development on my game and it really came at a time when I started to realize that nobody really nobody knew about my game at the time mm-hmm and you need some way of capturing an audience and letting people know yeah you know what exactly is happening on your projects actually last time we talked you had a really cool tip for me and that was Newgrounds oh yeah yeah if you if you want some good

feedback on your games I would consider Newgrounds calm it's actually it gets really bad rep because a lot of people think that this is where like teenagers go to make really crappy flash-based YouTube videos or animations and yes that is partially true hmm but what's great about Newgrounds is you have almost a guaranteed audience of at least 1500 or so yeah that's probably also a little bit because there's so much crappy stuff and if you post something good then you really stand out yeah yeah I think I've managed to get a feature there a bunch of times hmm where they feature it on the on the front page and you get you know that puts you from like 1,500 4,000 ish up to I think my biggest success is around 30,000 views hmm and then you have to sort of then you get a different set of

problems one is getting feedback I don't know if I told you this my favorite bit of feedback I ever got on any game was somebody wrote about a different game I've made I think the quote was if you just finished reading an entire phone book then this should be fun but what is great about I mean if you're gonna be a dick at least make me laugh yeah some people are just spitting file but for the most part Newgrounds is a great place to test out any given idea yeah and you get a lot of feedback and some of it is gonna be brutal but that's it's a good way of getting yourself accustomed to it one of the hardest things to do is to not respond to feedback because you want to you want to you would want to defend

yourself yeah you want to defend yourself yeah but you have to sort of accept yeah just have to listen yeah it's not about me ya know and almost everybody has something valid to say almost everybody there are some people who are just in it to troll you but there's also an extinction it's a way to get to learn how to deal with a lot of people okay I think good pixel asks a question about your game which is does it have some kind of sound I have a really interesting sound situation right now so currently I'm still working with the placeholder sound hmm that I I was working with like way back in January of last year but I just got into contact with a guy from Sweden who is going to

be making a concert around my game yeah we've talked about that that's really crazy it's it's an it's an odd situation so he's studying for his master's degree which is why he's able to do it I don't even know if he's not just doing out of the goodness of his heart and the situation is as follows the way they understand it he wants somebody from the audience to come onto the stage and play the video game which will then be projected behind a an orchestra of some of his friends not an actual paid off officer and then he's gonna direct them in tune to what's being played mmm so it's gonna be a live performance so he's gonna direct them as it's being like yeah I don't quite know how so the musicians have to react in real-time to whatever is happening in your game more

or less yeah and they won't have any like idea what's gonna happen because it's gonna be in real time and I'm having a discussion with him about just how aggressive a shift in sound is gonna be from when you get captured to when you're just sort of playing the game hmm and being stealthy and I wanted to be very very aggressive and he's having a bit of an issue figuring out so how aggressive all of that yeah but actually I'm if you're interested in the zone Sylvester has a video about this on his channel so I will link his channel somewhere below this video once I have time to do that or you can just type that's nine and the search fine as well myself and my composure is very interested in any sort of feedback yeah I'm us well bus but I haven't given you my game yet for you that makes it a little difficult for anybody to give me

good feedback some tell you new grounds yeah I'll try that as soon as I implement that one more feature maybe we should get into the questions we prepared we prepared a couple of very interesting questions and my first one for you is what is what do you think about the current state of AI and where do you think all of this is headed our people may be a bit too worried or well they're doing personally and they did I give the context for you again because your game is about AI right yeah yeah oh yeah also the narrative is about AI the overarching story is is all around AI it's you're being followed around I'm not gonna give it too much away but you're being followed around these robots that clearly are an AI by

themselves and you have to sort of avoid them and they are the only type of enemy so every enemy that's in my game is going to be some version of an artificial intelligence and there's an overarching story in my game about artificial intelligence hmm I personally I'm not that worried about AI I know that Stephen Hawking and a lot of people are spelling out doom and gloom when it comes to artificial intelligence in fact my video game is being currently being considered as sort of the basis for a haunted house know that I can talk about a bit more about that project in a second yeah but personally I'm not that worried mostly because we human beings are the ones who are going to be developing the AI yeah been focusing on how exactly it's gonna think how it's how it's gonna approach problem solving yeah but but I

think the problem with machine learning and neural networks is that is exactly not the case that you basically just don't know if you're familiar with how neural networks work it's the one who are going to implement the systems that is going to help it to teach itself the in show you're you're you're still the one that teaches us what is good and what is bad but sometimes that can have some unwanted results and also I don't just mean I'm I don't think AI will take over the world or anything like that I don't think that's very likely but it's really surprising how smart AI is getting at the moment and there might be some different problems for examples what if somebody writes an AI that can develop video games better than we what what are you going to do nothing and

actually I don't know if you have heard about that website you can can look it up now if you want it's called deep art dot IO deep or G part yeah I it's actually a neural network so on AI that is all about drawing so the AI can draw you just give it a photo and tell it in which style you want the photo to be drawn and it doesn't cross the photo in that exact same style I mean it's absolutely crazy and mind blowing around well and there are more and more things like that are popping up on the internet so and really interested to see where all of this is headed I mean at the end of the day I'm not I'm not super worried no and so far as we we remain in control of the

AI so any dystopian future I think there are a lot of actually really interesting games that are being developed around the idea of artificial intelligence AI mind one at least I think so but soma if you know that game has a really interesting take on AI and what AI might wear it might go mmm I think the most recent season of black mirror is also sort of a rumination on what AI exactly is yeah I haven't seen that can I have like so much like any courage okay I think we're definitely moving towards a time when AI is going to be just a much bigger part of our lives something we have to get used to I don't

think that it's something we have to be particularly scared of I think maybe know if cares what's a little careful maybe maybe that's the critical it is maybe I think we're putting in I'm hoping at least that the people making the actual AI are not my little little trial version here are being careful about what they're implementing and if they are worried at all they have such a huge backlog of our they called science fiction novels to draw from as to worst-case scenarios hmm so I think I think there's a lot to be said negatively but I think that's I think the negative is overtaking the positive in the conversation of the right and there are a lot of positive possibilities yeah my game is another neck voice in that opposition I think

especially in games there are tons of cool stuff you can do with AI if you use it correctly definitely would be very cool to have on AI design levels in real time or stuff like that but fits exactly your your skill set I think one of the things that at least we haven't seen much when it comes to artificial intelligence yeah is anything narratives mm-hmm that's because it's really hard to I guess it's really hard I guess to write on AI that generates good narrative that's why we haven't seen it but I'm very curious to see that it'll come earlier later it will show up so I'm piggybacking on that question how do you feel about the current development in realtime strategy

yeah good question there are not a lot of real-time strategy games at the moment there are a couple of couple ones we talked about it a little bit before others dream starters they kind of started to disappear when the whole mobile thing started and also I think Starcraft lent grabbed a lot so all of the hardcore RTS players that want to play really complicated RTS games most of them I think are at Starcraft or play Starcraft and also yeah there are a couple of good strategy games out there but I think it's going more and more into it's hard to tell honestly I don't really want to talk about something I don't know all that much about I'm just I'm just I'm just making estimations here I think there are there's people valued at their

time a lot and there are a lot of casual strategy games nowadays so the this hardcore edgy experience there are a lot easier ways to get that nowadays than playing really complicated strategy games maybe earlier this was the only way to get that kind of experience a couple of years ago but nowadays you have really simplistic games on smartphones that give you an awesome RTS experience and are way easier to get into something there are a lot of really good tower defense games and also stuff like clash Royale where you also just play multiplayer on your smartphone and I guess that sort of replaced hardcore RTS games for a lot of people because it's still RTS but it's a lot easier and then there was also an

indie game recently called tooth and tail I don't know if you heard about that just also Haile tooth and tail yeah it's also a very simplistic strategy game actually I haven't played it but it looks really cool and I want to try it it's also a really simple strategy game it has buildings and units and all that good stuff base building but you really just have it's really simple and you don't even control your units like an enormous strategy games but you have one leader character that you control either with the controller or with your keyboard and your units following you around so you basically just play one character instead of multiple ones and your entire army just follows you so that's that's a really cool idea as well to execute that it looks fun yeah I can't tell if it's take slide or I think it's pixel out yeah it sort of looks like again I'm not sure I take slowly

sort of that I feel like every indie game developer has made a pixel art game I get some point I have I I think I haven't oh you still have you still have that that little thing to make the panel depends on if you count all the little prototypes made because then I'm probably made something slower but I never really was that much into pixel art to be honest I mean I came of age or came into video games when they started being 3d so always been more into 3d that I have pixel art for 2d games almost in general but what's interesting is now that we're seeing sort of a shift in the industry I'm getting much more into 2d and pixel Rd games because they provide me with

experiences that I don't feel like the bigger guy is really giving at the moment yeah that's really cool about indie development that they can focus on really small niche games and really specific needs I also think you know we've gotten to a point in the industry where some of the bigger companies are seem to be focusing more on the bottom line meaning money then I think they do artistic merit within their games I'm sure that certainly there is artistic married in their games but we're seeing a lot of shifts away from narrative and single-player experiences and into games that could eventually become something played in the emo eSports space yeah that's what becomes you know that that becomes out of the norm yeah I think so

too the most triple-a companies are focusing on multiplayer nowadays but like it's I mean it's a logical decision it's just an option we have now with modern technology to make games like this but I'd say it's a it's a little bit of a shame because we're missing some of the experiences and unfortunately in Deus is a very volatile market hmm you know it's a difficult market to have any sort of security and as a developer or as a customer as well as a customer your you're great you get neurotic first as a developer you it's very difficult to know that your game is gonna sell well if at all yeah and for the most part we have to generate we have to do everything ourselves from promotion over programming to art to sound like because

we can't believe at the beginning you want me to be able to pay anybody to do that as somebody who's been who's touched the space where investors abound like I've had some investor meetings and tried that whole part of the industry okay for your game now for this game this game was specifically outside of investor space because for the prisoner project yeah it was for a different project but it's such a predatory market it's not difficult to get an investor I would say but they sometimes take up to like 75 percent of the gross of any game hmm which means you're left after taxes with at least after Danish taxes with a measly next seven percent of your entire development which then has to go to its development of your next game so a game has to sell like aggressively well yeah

you know it's really hard and and you can you just can't with the first game you can't expect that type of development then that type of you know profit and one thing that's also just making it harder and harder is digital distribution I mean in some sort it makes it easier but the problem with it is that you're competing with everybody who ever made a game ever so there are so many games out there and you can get every single one of them and maybe some random dude made a cool stealth game five years ago and selling it for two bucks now on Steam and you have to compete with that so that doesn't make it any easier and it always I mean you have to be okay with the fact that what you're making might not end up being seen by all that many people yeah

definitely but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try it I mean it just means that you have to love what you do because you know you're not gonna be able to do it for the for the money of it in my case I consider it a bit a bit closer to art what I do not that I would ever call myself an artist but what I do is a bit closer to art in execution because I'm doing this because I love it and because it makes me feel good and it gives me a energetic outlet hmm but I'm not doing it because I think there's gonna be a buttload of cash in it yeah yeah I've also had the few people I know who actually work in the games industry they're being underpaid for most for the most part and they tend to become very

angry at the video game industry and at games and I still want to enjoy games while making them okay actually just for the people in stream who just joined we're currently talking about the current state of the games industry we are not experts on that book we're gonna discuss it anyways you know personal experience I think yeah I think for the most part I think we're gonna see a decline in in video games I think we're gonna see more Indies like my own that are gonna push a different agenda and we're already seeing some of those I just finished playing 9 the woods which is made by a three-person team in I believe San Francisco or somewhere in California hmm and that's really really

it is a really great game but it's also a game that you know for a fact that no other no big developer would ever invest in yes there just isn't much in the way of revenues through a revenue stream there you know but from a customer perspective it has never been better there are so many games and they're only getting cheaper so exact actually it's a really positive thing everybody can can make games nowadays it's becoming really easy if you want to make a game you can do it if you want to live yeah that's becoming harlots exactly where you want to make your living and I think there is a as you talk about with RTS is there's their industry there are industries but genres that are sort of falling by the wayside not because they're necessarily bad or nobody place them but simply because they can't make the money that a you

know battlefield whichever or yeah whatever number of what they called assassin's creed were on hmm I think for the triple industry that's definitely true and I mean it's a shame that we're not going to get any triple-a 3d puzzle games anymore or any triple-a yeah I guess it's not true there are triple-a stealth games and all that sort of stuff but they are go in a very specific direction with a lot of focus on action-oriented gameplay I think that's not that much variety triple-a has gotten into a point where they have sort of put them they put themselves in a precarious position because they now more or less they've seen one video games height would be super popular and that's really the only

type of game they seem to make anymore hmm I think somebody made a exactly really good video about this somebody did a breakdown of the 2017 III conference and out of the two thousand and out of the many games that were discussed there or you know not discussed but yeah announced only like seven percent of those were nonviolent hmm the rest had some sort of combat and oftentimes a very aggressive sort of combat yeah if we look at the games released in for the PlayStation one at a time when were they called JRPGs were big and adventure games were big there was such a wide variety of experiences that you could have within the gaming space but currently about it I think especially

now it's that's better than ever with all the Indies out there I just didn't finish my my last thought there correctly you're completely right that we cannot get all that varied experiences in the triple-a industry but I think in the indie space there's more variety than ever probably because everybody is trying to find his own niche I think the big problem with the English space in general is that we're not seeing the mainstream gamer really going indie like it's great for us the community of us that know about indie games and and pay mind to Indies yeah but I know a lot of at least I have a couple of friends who really enjoy those really big Triple A games like Assassin's Creed and they wouldn't enjoy indie game so they know they exist but I they they like what they what the big

studios are producing and I think it makes sense they are producing those games because there are people who want to who actually want to play them I think I think it's good the only thing I would wish that the triple-a industry would do a bit more is give a suryya T you know we're not really seeing many triple-a are its's or triple-a puzzle games or we're really only seeing the one side of Caillat which is the action-adventure game nice and learn in either first or third person I would I I wish that the triple-a industry would take some chances and try something different and interesting but I also get why they don't there's just not a lot of money in it yeah definitely they're just running businesses and that's not necessarily something we we should judge them for it's not I agree there I think the good

thing about Indies is that as development has become cheaper to do it's also allowed allowed for us to see a lot more variety in a very specific spot in the industry so we're still we're now seeing some people out of either nostalgia or love for the medium coming in and creating those experience at the triple-a just aren't anymore yeah I just wished that with the marketing budgets that the triple A's have I wish that they were giving the mainstream gamer more of a more of an education in games then I feel like they're getting currently so do you think most mainstream gamers don't really get how many awesome indie games they're out there do you think they're they're just not aware of it or do you think they for

the most part yeah my excuse my own brother as as a test audience for my game hmm I do this because he knows very little about the games industry so he'll be brutally honest without knowing it I kill him he'll tell me things that really hurt okay that's awesome hurtful because he just doesn't get it and it's usually a great way of quality controlling my own experiences even if it's harsh at times yeah that's awesome if you have someone like that it's it's great it's a great resource to even if he's sort of a douche at times but he seemed that he knows a little about games and he might be aware of one or two games that come out a year and it's always gonna be whatever is being promoted the hardest hmm and that's just

invariably gonna be the triple a space that's that's what they have they have the money to to promote the way that we don't I wish that that either somebody I think we're gonna have more promotion for indie games or that the triple a would would diversify more okay yeah but I don't think either is gonna no obviously not I mean it it makes sense exactly the way this but I think I see that it's bothering you yeah my guess is that that it's going and that's that is unsustainable I don't think we're we're in a I don't think we're in a you know space right now in the games industry that it's really gonna be able to sustain itself because the cost of making something at a triple-a level keeps rising and B demand for better and

more impressive graphics keep rising hmm and eventually I think we're gonna see some sort of a of a crash where the benefits of making something at that level of you know look is going to outweigh the yeah I weighed the cost yeah I'm not sure I I mean I can see that happening because the indie space is getting bigger and bigger and honestly sometimes you can't even really tell the difference between indie game and the triple-a game anymore some of them look really damn good we are seeing some they'll have to find a way to justify their team size and they'll have to say I have if they want to stay relevant yeah I guess but I don't know if I if I agree with you on the fact that mainstream gamers don't really know that there are so many indie games out there I think they are aware

of the fact maybe they don't really take the time to have a closer look which games are out there and also a lot of the mainstream gamers I think are also playing still playing on console and it's a little actually I don't have a consoles I once again I don't really know what I'm talking about but I think you're not getting exposed to indie games or as much on console than on Steam you see a lot of indie games when you log into steam I don't know how that is with consoles at the moment I actually think because I have two consoles I have a Playstation and then I have a Nintendo switch and I am starting seeing a push to woods in these Nintendo switch I think that's awesome relatively inexpensive to develop for the system but they also have a bit of quality control like you can't just like throw something on to the switch and just be like call it a day

no that's perfect oh right right we're seeing some of the better in these some of some of the better representations of our market come on to the switch I think the switch might might live through Indies I think Indies are going to be some of the things that are going to I think we're gonna see a symbiotic relationship where the switch is merely by Indies and Indies together the throughway of the switch mm-hmm that might people yeah I thought that a lot of indie set success on the switch I played him Knight the woods on the swage it was really good yeah cool it's cool switch worked out so well maybe I should get one some days I can play all of those juicy Nintendo games that I've never played but they make really good games I really really enjoyed the new Zelda and I'm not a Selda fanboy you know Final Fantasy was my was my JRPG

when I grew up but I really enjoyed myself with new Zelda so I mean and now the new Mario looks quite fun I don't have a relationship with Mario so I mean either but I would it would be very interesting to try it it was okay I wasn't I wasn't as blown away by it as most people were hmm I was entertained it was a good game but I wasn't like oh my god this is the best thing ever okay but it's also not really your kind of game or a little I tend to go with the more serious thing I've also I've tried making games that are a little bit lighter in tone but the memory as well as when I'm being over serious hmm and it's just one of those things that you have to accept about yourself that maybe I'm just not that funny maybe when I'm I'm a I'm in my sweet spot when I'm doing something that's very sick it's very dark in town mm-hmm yeah I see to

move back into development what what are your worst and favorite parts of development okay the next question my favorite part about development is usually the beginning because everything goes forward very quick you make very quick progress you'd just do a couple of hours of coding and a lot changes and then the bigger game gets the more it slows down because it gets more and more exhausting to search through your entire code and also there are a lot of boring activities that pile up in the end like calling the UI the menu screens and making sure it works on every PC with all of the different screen ratios and all that sort of stuff takes a lot of work you don't see that much progress

and then it starts getting less funds I really like starting but I don't like finishing but unfortunately you need to do both maybe one part I also really liked is the balancing because I think it's absolutely fascinating that you can change an experience so much just by tweaking a couple of numbers or just changing the speed of something just changing the HP of something and suddenly you're playing a completely different game that's really fascinating to me yeah I think I agree with you the beginning is definitely one of the more fun parts I mean because everything changes up so quickly hmm and you get a lot of a lot of really pertinent information early on - just to shape the entire experience now say this is the

first time with this game it's the first time that I'm really getting into sort of the the late stages of development meaning specifically things like aspect ratio and sound mixing and yeah and all that and this is also the most ambitious video game narrative I've ever taken on I think what are the more annoying parts of a prolonged experience like this is all of the second-guessing that comes into it mm-hmm looking at something for so long and it doesn't really change that much you start second-guessing every decision you've made yeah I know that holding sometimes looking at something and changing it works for the better but sometimes it really doesn't

and sometimes you break it yeah tell when you're doing your project a favor or when you're being destructive towards your project so I've come into the the habit of talking to people on Facebook like basically whomever is online when I'm when I'm implementing any type of change to the game hmm I will just hit somebody I'll be like do you have like a second to look at this logo I design for something nothing probably annoyed with me about it but it helps me mmm yeah you I think that's a really cool part actually about my youtube channel because I have this really cool feedback loop where I just do something and upload daily so I instantly or more or less instantly see what people think about it and that is

really that's really helpful just to get some feedback on your your stuff because if you're just one person and the opinion of one person alone doesn't really tell you all that much if it works if it doesn't work I agree on that so I get a lot of feedback just not on the gameplay especially seeing as your experience is a bit more gameplay focused yes definitely it might be a good am now might be a good time to because you already have a little bit of a build audience so now might be a good time to have them play it and get some feedback on that part of it yeah you're absolutely right I'll release it this weekend I think that's a good idea and I will please send a link my way I definitely much liked to play it yeah cool because I think I think the I think the concept of a very very simple RTS is

actually really good it's really I think it just about it does the core mechanic work and how can you iterate on it I'm not really sure if it really feels like an RTS honestly I think it has some RTS elements because you're building units and you're destroying enemies but you don't have any resource management and any building so I don't know if people even feel like it plays like a traditional RTS but a clicker hmm don't know yeah me probably I think it's probably still still the best term to describe it yeah okay but let's not get too sidetracked here okay so um I think we can move on to the next question yeah sure so one thing that I asked is why should I play the chain broke or why

should people play it it's an interesting question insofar as I don't have like a like a super picky answer for that hmm partly you should play it because it's the first game I've ever made that's maybe a little bit of a narcissistic answer but it's definitely the first time you're ever gonna see my specific point of view in a video game hardly you should play it because it has a really interesting narrative that has something new to say about machine learning and how machines might think differently from everything I think that's a good pitch you should just start with that forward that's how I it has essentially it has a strong narrative and it has something interesting to say about AI and machine learning I think I think that sounds intriguing actually at least for me

because I'm really into that stuff and I think if you can definitely get an audience that way because there are definitely people that are interested in AI and machine learning and if you can grab their attention then good for you I'm gonna like that from now on I actually I'm sorry if I fully blanked out what is the name of your game he doesn't have a name yet so you didn't blank out and we're currently deciding on the name on the channel and there will we will vote on Saturday there will be a video with where people can vote on different names I have three different ideas in mind and yeah we'll just see which one sounds too you know thank you ease on what those yeah I mean I can try let me let me try to find the screenshot so I can show you

it's a little sneak peek because the actual video is actually just coming out the other day spoiler but doesn't matter can I find the screenshots the big questions in life actually I can just tell you who cares about the screenshots and one name is Elvis Elvis and the idea is that there are you basically whenever you create new enemies new units whenever you want to duplicate them they turn into X and those eggs kind of dragged out on the sides and split into two parts so for a moment it looks like they're two eggs just connected by a thin line between and then now creatures hatch out of those two X so it's

definite all that's let's just call these eggs overs and then we have two of those eggs right next to each other so it's over solvers obviously and I think I looked at up in a Latin dictionary Oh ovals oh I didn't I forgot the Latin word for egg but it's something like that so and then we have a slight variation which is always Nova it's a new one I came up with and then the last one was the last one I don't remember because yeah that's probably not a good thing if you can't remember your name I really like all this overs yeah I like it too I think that's cute and it says something about you know it's about your core gameplay it says

something about your core gameplay so I think you know if I were to vote right now that's probably one I would vote for yeah the Cajun rock is actually the very first thing that came to my mind when I was finding out the game and originally it was supposed to be the first line of dialogue in the game hmm but as I changed up the game I started realizing and I played around with a lot of different names for it but I ended up realizing that it's it's more about systematic change and sort of how the the AI itself changes so I kept the name but for a while it was gonna be called tau tau and then I realize that they were like a million games called yeah that's the problem so once I I ended up with the change one which there are no games called at least on Steam that's cool one thing I always do with my game

names I typed them into Google and see how many results I get the fewer the better yeah so I think that would be a bit of a issue with the chain broke if I think if somebody typed the chain broke into Google it he wouldn't probably not see your landing page first there would probably be some other things about chains and broken stuff but other than that I think it's a really good name the only the only thing I figured out with the chain broke is on Twitter I saw I check that if the chain is hashtag the chain broke was being used by anything and the only place I found it was somebody had broken their toilet okay chain broke okay but I was really the only other place I saw that being being hashtag yeah that's a good sign I only have one question left really

which is about your process hmm so what would what do you feel like your process is like I don't really have I don't I think I'm starting to lose my voice here because I streamed today in the morning as well so let's see how long I can keep talking but actually my process is relatively simple for this game I started with a game play so I tried to start with very abstract shapes and prototype the game this way without any graphics without any specific setting or story in mind at all so very gameplay I get very gameplay focused approach and then after that I'm I tried to figure out an art styles I

basically did that cool challenge where I created four different art sells for my games with four different settings and four different themes in four days so one style each day and then I just decided on the best one and I think it has a lot of advantages to to do the look of your game second and to do the mechanics first because this way you can really you don't get triggered in a certain direction and you can have the complete freedom because if you're just moving abstract shapes around the screen you can do pretty much whatever you want with them and then as soon as you attach a theme to it you have very specific limitations as soon as I say this is a fantasy game about this and that then I suddenly have to think about okay what can Knights do or what can dragons do and I just like having that freedom to

do with my game pieces whatever I want so I start with the gameplay but I don't also I don't have an established workflow yet because this really my first game where I'm really getting serious and other than that my workflow has always been different for every game I've made so I haven't really created any game in the same way but I often tend to start with the mechanics because I'm a very mechanics and gameplay focused dude yeah I think I think for me I actually agree with you video games are meant to be played so this is actually the first game that I went with a vertical or horizontal slice well two vertical one so I made almost a full version of the game one okay and then once I had that tested out and knew

that there was some level of quality there I went on and started doing the the visuals and store for it and actually there was a there was an interesting point in my game so originally I had a very different light setup and it looked different in a lot of different ways hmm until my brother again played it and told me that it looked look he told me it looked like a like a game from the 80s but not in a cool way but you know when you work on something for four months that's like a dagger alright but he wasn't wrong so you redesign at that point yeah I need I needed to I needed to do something different for a long time was very occupied with the idea of doing my game for iOS and Android mm-hm but then I realized that's probably not

a market that's super into narrative games to begin with yeah it's probably also not a device that you really want to play horror stealth on because you can't really immerse yourself in that experience all that much screen I tend to go from a mechanic's standpoint first and make sure that my game is fun to play and then I and then I focus whatever story I have around the fun gameplay okay so even you're creating a story driven game you didn't create the story first yeah I did not no I just read this the way the story came about was I had an animation if you with the with the AI system that isn't unity where it will rotate weirdly mm-hmm so it'll do like a weird it will go up to a

point and then when it's rotating to go to the next point it will rotate and move so if you have if you have a character like a humanoid character he'll sort of Michael Jackson moonwalk in place for a little bit until he's rotated okay and that looked really really weird and I didn't know how to fix that issue with the Unity AI and there wasn't really a quick fix for me but I realized if I made the enemies a floating robot yeah then I wasn't gonna have the issue okay so I ended up with these floating robots and then I simply had to figure out okay well what is the what is the story are going to be about if the main villain of the main enemy is a floating robot okay and then I sort of retro actively wrote a story from this idea of floating robots okay that's interesting so more or less a happy accident for the most part yeah and I

try when whenever I start a game project to not lock myself down to any visual style or any you know I usually either go with I have a tool that I really want to work with or I go with or I go with a mechanic that's really interesting to me and then I try and so usually a game idea for me will sound something like it's gonna be something with branching narrative and it's probably going to have such and such style of animation yeah and then that's the way I go about it but yeah you still still need to stay within your limitations like I think you can't just be I don't want to have any limitations on the art style whatsoever you still and you obviously have a lot of technical limitations and I mean I think that's one of the things oftentimes when

you're doing something like this turning a negative into a positive can be a good thing hmm saying to yourself okay so I can't use this or that tool or I won't have the opportunity to do such-and-such hmm means that you all of a sudden have a lot of opportunities that means that okay I can use for my game for instance I can use materials on my 3d objects all that much so that means that I have to go very simplistic on everything everything needs to be minimalistic because yeah that's really the only thing I can achieve if my situation is such that I can't do yeah it's that just because you don't want to texture all of your objects or is there another reason it's partly because I don't want to take sure all my objects I mean I cannot enter it's a ton of work I wouldn't want to work it's also partly because I've done some texturing in the past and it ended up saying taking so much time to be able to

make something within the level of quality that I was looking for that I wouldn't if I if I had to make a game a full video game with that level of work it would end up taking me a good five years or something and that's just I have no interest in making those passion projects that take five years to make no me neither because if you work for a project more than two years then you're at the point where you have to start redoing everything you did in the beginning because you're no longer happy when I thought you did because you're already okay I can tell now that I've been working on this for just over a year but I'm already at a point where I'm looking at things and being like oh I have to redo that like some and I mean the way that I've been working on this game is also a little bit different than what I used to for this game I have made I really did sort

of the alpha-beta type of development cycle where I have an alpha and it's done and now I'm sort of working my way to a beta hmm but there's just such a huge difference between the gameplay experiences of the two that you end up sort of having to reconfigure some things to make now to make the whole game to seem cohesive hmm yeah cool maybe I can give you a fuel question about consoles which is Nintendo or Sony that's a rough question I think it's very much it's very much about what you want currently a more into sound era Nintendo like I used to be a Sony fanboy but I feel like the way that Nintendo has approached the switch

is really really great for us in these and I'm having a lot more fun with Nintendo I've actually talked to some representatives from Nintendo about getting a developer's kit hmm and they're really they seem very excited about smaller third-party developers more so than they are about sort of the the bigger companies Nintendo definitely they're definitely also taking risks that's partly why I like them the lab both of that whole cardboard situation have you seen those no oh you I'm gonna send you a link after this it's great it's basically making your own controllers for the Nintendo switch but out of cardboard oh and then it's like a piano that you can play for the switch or for the PlayStation for the switch okay

create any no matter what you think about that idea and whether or not it's gimmicky and dumb it's still a great risk for them to take you know they're making something that's never been seen before something that speaks to a completely different market than maybe the one would think of a standard video game II so taking some weird risks I'll have to type in my Tendo labo and in Google oh that looks that looks really interesting it is and they're all solid work can you can you play on this year's paper Thanks how does that work how it works I honestly don't know I think there are since there are a lot of sensors in each of those individual comp

remember that hold and uncle joy cons but something similar to that that you then slab-like put into those cardboard things and they will then sense movement and there's some some very rudimentary not cameras but something that sentences like light like dark and that's kind of stuff okay there are sensors in the controller okay crazy it's really I I really like this about Nintendo they're they're willing to experiment they very mature I mean I think it's gonna turn out great for them but I mean it didn't for the Nintendo Wii hmm so I mean Big Bear they're willing to take chances on a larger market the way in a way that I don't see Sony and Microsoft doing currently hmm but I could also be biased because I'm seeing a lot more Indies making their

way to hmm successfully making their way to Nintendo's yeah I mean from from an indie perspective I it's probably switch there are some indie games on PlayStation as well of course I mean a lot of it but you never see them really being promoted by Playstation where she's I can't say how this is gonna change moving forward as more developers move on to the switch more of the baker developers but i can tell you that on playstation the the smaller games just don't get any space over the the larger ones yeah but that's maybe that's also because the audience isn't really there may be people owning Playstations are are interested in Assassin's Creed and not necessarily in indie games that might be why you buy a PlayStation 4 the would be added processing power probably okay I have

one more question for you which is how do you go about actually designing the graphics for your game I think you talked a little bit about this so you start with the gameplay but then you have this prototype you have this the basics of your gameplay then then what's next I mean I I will say when it comes to visuality I have a background as in design I have a master's in design from a design school here in Denmark which definitely helps when I'm doing this sort of work because I I have a pretty good understanding of what's of what's going to work and what isn't hmm but whether you start to trust I usually start with a very quick sketch is I wouldn't call the concept art but it's Ofsted that sauce has to be what it is so I'll do a super quick sketch I

think I might be able to show some things that with camera so this is my notebook I'm rifling through right now so I don't know if you can see it but something along the lines of this okay I can be a house for the house yeah yeah yeah sorry so I'll do something like something that takes me like at most ten minutes okay and what's what's really important to me is figuring out so what am i doing and what is the big idea I actually use Pinterest a lot of all comedians because it has such a wealth of visual information I think a lot of designer do that actually and it's it's it's for girl it's for women who want to look at wedding dresses and then for designers yeah and then I'll do that quick sketch and then I'll usually move directly into blender where I do most of

my 3d work most all of my 3d work but still Google level design and unity not in blender or do ya okay I do the level design in unity for this particular game I'm actually done some of some of that most of the of the visual development of each level in blender hmm so I've taken a screenshot of the level as I've set it up in unity and then I've imposed that into blender and use blender too and then just made all the assets all the individual assets in blender hmm I don't know if it's the best way of doing it or if it's even a way that I would recommend somebody else does it but it worked for this particular project because it allowed for me to work with each individual level more as an illustration then it has single assets put in the game yeah maybe it works if

you have a good feel of what you want to create and if you can imagine how it will look when it's done because obviously the look will drastically change when you bring it over from blender into unity and put some lighting on and then for a lighting part I imagine you'd probably just try because I mean you can change stuff really quick in unity lighting in unity is is full trial and error yeah I just I try something and if it doesn't work then I try something else actually lighting has been one of the the biggest problems I've had mmm Jane broke hmm do we actually do like baking for your game or do you just use real time lights all the lights so far real fine okay I've considered putting in some light baking I think there's there's definitely something to be said for it but for this particular game there just isn't enough there just isn't enough

detail in anything I'm doing that it really warrants like baking hmm I don't know if I agree with it I think light baking makes every light scene look more realistic but you the problem with it is that you run into a lot of technical problems and doing a good like bake is like a science in itself really it's I think the heart I I think it's one of those headaches that I decided pretty early on that I just wasn't in it yeah I'm I completely understand that I probably would have done the same thing I mean they're given myself like four months from beta to release is to try and figure out how do I make game run better and it's like baking something I want like there's a lot of questions that still are a big part of the game yeah yeah definitely

okay all right I think that we're all of my questions we have all do we have some questions remaining no I think I think I'm good cool then let's give our viewers a couple more minutes so they can ask a question if they want and then I think we're good sure sure quite a go talk almost hour and a half yeah not bad i streamed for two hours this morning oh wow and I chose a time where nobody was watching on purpose because it was my first stream this is this is my first dream level hmm I might I might scream later I I used to do a lot of screen paints that was sort of a of a big thing in my channel for a while

when I was working on a different game mmm but I never really got the problem isn't I I think I get self-conscious about my drawing ability mm-hmm so I feel like I probably know more and are able to am able to give more information when it comes to actual development of a title relative to you know just showing the visuality of the experience hmm oh so I think it I think speed painting and concept art can be misleading as to what video game development actually is yeah that's true I mean you can you can get a job as a concept artist in the games industry no problem if you're skilled enough but there are a lot of people who want to do this and also if you want to make an entire game then concept artists are really small portion of it and another problem with concept that if you're a small developer is just you can

never make it look like in your artwork it will just look different I think I've seen a professional concept artist and he's he's not being paid a lot to do it firstly and secondly it does mean that you know you think you're just gonna be doing dragons and like super cool mech looking things but he works on all sorts of different games why not just games TV shows or you know box art for toys and all this stuff and sometimes he'll have worked with you know one dumb piece of toy for a three-year-old okay like a week and he'll be just up to his eyeballs in you know cutesy

bubblegum pink something that he has no real interest in big yeah this is his his area this is what yeah sure sure okay that's a question which kind of game do you play myself yeah I can answer the questions well but let's start with you well I tend to go narrative in my experiences I really like puzzle games I think we're not seeing that many puzzle games the last really good one I played I think was I never played the witness but it did play the Stanley parable aha there's something paradox and it sounds like the Stanley parable and they always call the Stanley parable but that it's not what it's called even though the Stanley parable have a family parable other pretty good yeah I also know a pretty cool puzzle game that I really like but what was the name of that I'm also really bad at remembering

stuff and the Talos principle I mean like we're talking about the same one yes that was the aisle I love her game I need to play it again principle awesome with puzzle games you need to give it a lot of times between playthroughs so you mustn't forget yeah but I also really like speedrunning puzzle games I think one of the really fun parts about playing the Talos principle was that I felt like I could rush through some of the puzzles really quickly obviously not all of them because some of them were really hard but having a really complex puzzle and then solving it just in a couple of minutes and feeling really smart about it was one of the the best feelings I ever got in playing puzzle games I guess or in playing video games so I really liked that has really good puzzle design absolutely good thing about puzzle games is it when done right it ends up making you

feel really smart and really liked it complex but it's just it's on market we see a lot of developers go into hmm I also really like narrative experiences I used to be very very into telltale games but that has sort of gone away as late I don't think that what they're doing recently is as interesting as I think the first couple of seasons of The Walking Dead were great but what they're doing now just this movie do much for me as I said I just quit I just played night in the woods which I really enjoyed and last year it's been a puzzle game or if horror experience I'd say there are definitely puzzles in it but nothing that's gonna be a mind teaser okay and then just to go back to the puzzle games for one second have you played Professor Layton I know a bit but I haven't played it I haven't played it because I don't have a console to play

it on but I borrowed it from a friend and I played a couple of levels and I think I liked it because there were a lot of different puzzles but yeah I don't know if I can tell you all that much about it just was another question from the stream chat so I wanted to ask yeah I played a couple of levels from Professor Layton where I didn't feel like playing through it completely but it's I guess it's kind of nice mix between narrative and puzzle game so do you prefer games that combine the two narrative and puzzle very few games that only do one that's actually true mostly possible games seem to be narrative no she's also probably why I like that the boy doll is one that was very narrative that's true the tallest principal as well was also quite Naruto flea-ridden parents house principal has a lot of

narration to they seem to go hand in hand and I think when when you're focusing on narration it's I puzzles allow for the player to be an active part in the story I think a lot of what happens is you know it goes with a lot of games even Indies it goes story story story then action action action then story story I like games that put me into the main action of the experience as quickly as possible and make me an agent in the experience and I think the reason why the reason why I love puzzle games is they do that they tend to have you as the driving force of the story hmm but isn't that the case for most games I think action games do that as well I'm not a big fan of the cutscene yeah that's true mmm that I can put my controller down now yeah that's a video

game yeah me too I'm playing games for for the mechanics for the gameplay I'm very mechanics and gameplay driven and I guess that's also why I like a lot of puzzle games because you have yeah I like puzzle games because they make me feel smart let's put it that way another genre that's that's sort of dead but making a bit of a comeback to that I really like is survival horror mm-hmm I'm a huge fan of amnesia or soma nah anything by that whole studio anything that goes really dark I usually really like the newest the rest of the evil I really enjoyed that looked really cool yeah and you can probably also see my own game I just I enjoy it when things go really dark I

think that's that some that some of my favorite stuff which also then is representative of the type of work I do sometimes I even have to pull some I never go like super dark but I do tend to go really weird with some of my experiences that criminals people so it's always has to be a balance but I really like survival horror that's some of the best yeah I see besides puzzle games I also really like strategy games obviously so I play quite a bit of Starcraft and some tower defense games and stuff like that a couple of indie games and they actually have you played braids that's also a really good puzzle game I haven't play I know upbraid but I haven't actually played it it's a good

puzzle game but it's not dark it's very nice and friendly but I can still recommend it it's a really good puzzle game have a look but I think I think that might be it for questions yeah yeah I think so yeah all right should we maybe call this a stream then sure or we could just sit around a little longer and stare at the camera awkwardly it'll be fun as well so yeah this was fun yeah sure if we have some more stuff to talk about we can do this again but yeah yeah I have some have got some new ideas and yeah yeah I

suggest the same thing but yeah I'll see you around definitely okay so where's actually the button where I am pissed you are here I have no idea okay so bye bye I'm gonna stick around until you end this yeah so my viewers nice that you were there thank you very much for watching thanks for watching cool bye