Lessons Learned from VR Prototyping

[Music] here I think that the official title of the talk is like Les lessons from VR prototyping I'm going to try to give you 50 lessons in 30 minutes so uh it's going to move a little bit quickly uh the title says 80 plus v and ar ar prototypes we've done about 90 so far we're currently on our 90th um my name is Rob I'm a software engineer with the Daydream team over at Google uh we do both and they prototypes lots of prototypes um usually we work in pairs we try to move as quickly as possible we'll kind of start started doing about a prototype prepare every 1 to two weeks it's getting a little slower now as we're moving into the social space and co-presence is a little bit harder to prototype for um but we we try to um you know we try to move as quickly as possible and learn what we can and this is going to be my attempt to distill our wisdom down into the top 50 lessons that I've seen um some of these are probably going to be familiar to a lot of you so um you know I kind maybe apologize hopefully I'm not too Elementary in the lessons that I'm giving also some of these rules are really flexible and I've seen them broken to great effect so

don't think that these are the ground truths not only that but today's kind of best practices maybe tomorrow's bad ideas so we understand this this system is evolving quickly I'm just going to tell you what we think we're working with right now and I hope that there are at least a few new things in this deck for everyone so let me get started my first category is audio which might already come as a surprise to you why audio because my audio engineer would be really happy to see this listed first um we usually put it last in our VR experiences and our experiences suffer as a result of that of just like thinking about that second so um this brings me to my first point which is great audio is absolutely critical to immersion uh and especially in VR it just can't be an afterthought it's absolutely essential to the experience um number two spatial audio is more than just Dynamic volume I think a lot of people don't really understand what's at play when we talk about spatial audio or volumetric audio often times people think oh okay so if there's a Sound Source over there I'm going to play it louder in this year than in this year

that's kind of like the first step to spatialize or localized audio but the next step is delaying that sound signal so that arrives at this ear ever so slightly later than at this year which is another cue that the brain uses to tell you where that is in the room really great spatialized audio is also taking into account whether that thing is in front of you or behind you because you know what your head and your ears are big sacks of liquid basically and they change the way that that your ears receive the sound and if you do it right if you process those sounds right you'll be able to distinguish between what's in front of you and what's behind you and the next step in spatialized audio is taking into account the physical properties of the room to get a little bit of echo or a little bit of dampening when all these things are done right the immersion really gets multiplied um also it's easy Google has an SDK that makes it easy to just drop into Unity or drop into your C++ project and it just works so there's really no excuse not to do it just use the spatialized audio plugin next up process process is really important to me because we're trying to run through these crazy prototypes so quickly um so the first thing that we do

a lot of iteration um you know I mean I think most people in this room kind of have been in VR long enough to have uh some some idea about what's good in VR and what isn't but you know when I talk to people who are new in the industry their first instinct is roller coasters racing games flying games now I've seen some of these done well but for the most part these experiences make you really sick and nobody has ever nobody's first instinct was tiltbrush right um so that what you need to do is iterate and you know tiltbrush was kind of a happy accident um iterate find out what's interesting um uh incidentally I give a lot of credit to the playful team who spoke yesterday they were doing five to nine ideas a week which is quite impressive compared to my my team's one or two um next up test in VR as soon as possible there are so many things especially with un user interfaces when you sketch them out on paper they seem like a good idea you put them in VR and they just don't work get that thing into Unity as quickly as possible uh next up scope uh

you know ask yourself what you really need to do to test that hypothesis that you're really after and just do that it's so easy to get distracted uh something that I call nerd sniping in reference to an XKCD comic it's just so like we're the types of people who are interested in everything and want these these little technical challenges it's so easy to get distracted and nerd sniped so just try to scope it as Qui as small as possible number six not every experience is going to be better in VR there's there are just things that are going to that are going to suck you know we we we take a spend a lot of times taking existing game genres and porting them into VR um but there are so many things to still discover when VR focus on those new things number seven don't be constrained by reality you know I think our first instinct is to try to recreate the experiences that we love in the real world people like puppies let's make a game where you play fetch with puppies it's VR you can play fetch with a T-rex or whatever like don't feel like you have to be constrained by reality think bigger number eight design from the ground up specific speically for VR and

I'm going to talk about a little little bit about this at the very end as well the best VR experiences that we're going to see aren't going to be adaptations of existing media forms they're going to be experiences that really understand the strengths and weaknesses of VR and are going to be built from the ground up I'll talk a little little bit more about that later motion it's really hard to get away from Motion in VR um I mean a lot of the a lot of the new experiences were just kind of trying to avoid motion with teleporting or keeping you in a single physical space um but it's hard to get away from um so let's talk a little bit about why emotion is such a challenge when your eyes and your vestibular disag system disagree that's when you get sick this is why roller coasters are such a bad idea you know your eyes are telling you one sense of acceleration your ears are telling you another sense of acceleration the time when those things tend to disagree is when you've been poisoned or drunk and so our body responds in the same way as when you've been poisoned or drunk um one of the things that you can do is minimize problems with uh with either with constant velocity or by using blink teleportation and I'm going to dig into this a little bit more deeply so

typically when we're designing motion curves for a game experience in 2D or like a web you know website whatever we apply a constant acceleration and this gives us a velocity curve like this um so you know you have your your positive acceleration you you you increase your velocity you have your negative acceleration you decrease your velocity and it gives you this nice smooth S curve of your position looks about like this and the thing to note about this is that your veloc or your acceleration is always non zero so in this kind of situation your eyes are the entire time disagreeing with your inner ear about what your acceleration is so instead what we found in many cases is the best practices for VR and again I've seen these rules broken to great effect but we what we what generally speaking what we try to do is apply a constant velocity which gives you an ugly looking position curve like this but here's the key is that it gives you an acceleration curve that looks like this you have this instantaneous impulse of positive acceleration this instantaneous impulse of negative acceleration and most of the

time your eyes and your inner ear agree about what the acceleration is so this tends to work pretty well the other thing you can do is Blink teleport so basically just like an instantaneous transportation from one location to another location gives you a position curve like this number 11 just be creative with teleportation preview and other types of motion there are games out there like budget cuts that let you see where you're going before you teleport I've seen all kinds of interesting things where uh fantastic Contraption you pull the Dark Helmet onto your head and you're in another world there are all kinds of really cool ways to teleport um while maintaining your spatial presence so you know play around with those sorts of things um and you know yesterday the playful team talked about their success with swing arm Locomotion I've seen the the the developers of of hover hvr talk about um how he addressed motion sickness by keeping the the camera rig always rotationally locked in all three axes and these things work pretty well experiment you know take a few minutes to spend some time on that crazy idea the other thing that you can do to minimize motion sickness is narrowing the fov while you're moving so generally

speaking we're not likely to get motion sick when we're watching a television because there's a small region of motion but we have the room around us to Anchor Us in space so some of the experiences that you might have seen narrow the field of view and bring in this this ring of black around you while you're moving forward and then slowly move that out again when you stop and the reality is most people don't even notice this or maybe they notice it at first but then they just get used to it and it really doesn't bother them but it allows them to Anchor themselves in space um in Google we're using some applications where rather than bringing in black we actually bring in a gray grid that's that's locked to the to the uh to the frame of the room to give you that spatial sense of spal coherence next when you're teleporting make sure you're teleporting to a psychologically safe location it really sucks when you teleport and you have like a wall right in front of you especially in a lot of our experiences where we don't even have textures on these walls it's just like you're you're like where am I it it can be very disconcerting to sort of like teleport that way uh next up my next section is

interaction players love experiences that allow for creativity and you know til brush is an obvious example here but um we we've built some other prototypes at Google that allow very simple ways of plan of just like being creative and expressing yourself the idea behind this prototype was let's make it as easy to create an animation as it is to play with dolls the first thing you do is you grab an item from your inventory and place it in your scene if you grab the item again you are now animating it on a timeline that timeline is simple enough that you can layer a bunch of animations on top of it and create just really you know the mechanics are so simple for this application but I've seen people literally like rolling around on the floor and waving things over their head making these crazy animations um you know just let people give people an opportunity for Creative Outlets number 15 let them throw it like this I mean anybody who's been in VR enough you've probably tried that experience where you grab something and you're throwing and you're like delighted that you're moving it and then you go to throw it and just like sticks in space and it's it's like it's just kind of underwhelming you

really want it to behave like it would in the real world um you know this brings me to the next point which is think about gestures one of the things you can do with throwing it is like make that your discard gesture you throw it off the edge of the cliff and you're done with that item um in terms of other gestures fantastic Contraption another example where you can use your toolbox or you can reach over your shoulder or over your head and pull items out of your inventory that way uh especially when those gestures really make sense for the context of the experience that you're creating think about how you can use those gestures to make the user interface simpler or or eliminate the user interface altogether next up let sloppy actions have structured results um and this will be a little bit related to my next Point um often times there's enough context oops let's see if I can get this playing here no that's not it let's try this there I'm messing it up again I'm just bad with technology ironic right all right um so often times there's enough context in an action in throwing something or picking something up or scooping something up that you can guess

algorithmically what the user wants to do go ahead and just do that like figure out what the user's intention is uh and uh and and like and take advantage of that take advantage of that context and make make a structured result from that otherwise sloppy action and this brings me to number 18 this sort of feels like you're giving your players superpowers um so spawning objects into the into the virtual world picking up huge items pulling in distant items with magic attraction or ju just like I was saying before like throwing something against a wall and having it grow you know grow to an enormous size or align itself appropriately all of these feel like superpowers and your your users really are going to love that controllers this is a tricky one um you know I think we've all had the frustration where we're in like Photoshop and we're trying to crop something to exactly 500 by 500 pixels and getting X and Y at exactly 500 by 500 is just a big pain in the butt um when we're in VR we're working with six degrees of freedom simultaneously and that's just to too much to get all those those numbers

right at exactly the same time um so I strongly suggest thinking about ways of snapping uh both in position and also in rotation in this example what you do you see the ghosted item in your actual position but it snaps into the closest orientation and position uh keep interactions in a comfortable space this is a pretty T typical one users don't want to have to spend a lot of time reaching to areas that are uncomfortable around their body so just keep when possible keep the key inter actions nearby um some of the things you can do is scale the user or scale the world as appropriate to make that happen um with the dollhouse application that we were just looking at you can scale between being um being big or being small um so that you can both experience the the dollhouse in an appropriate scale but then when you're building it you can also build at the appropriate scale and don't have to walk around a lot when it doesn't make sense to scale yourself or to scale the world think about mapping controls in a non-one toone manner this maybe I don't think this is has occurred to a whole lot of people yet but think about and

you know it sounds strange like if I reach out my hand goes way off to the back of the room the reality is the motor cortex is very plastic and the Brain adapts very quickly to these kinds of ideas we've even played around with experiments where when you're close by everything is one is is scaled one to one but as you reach Beyond a threshold you basically get Gog go gadget arms and they like extend out to the other side of the room and you can grab things and this or they kind of like turn into laser pointers these are great ways to allow you to access a larger physical space or maybe I guess I said larger virtual space without moving beyond that that useful physical space next up use haptics one of the rules that we try to operate by is that when visuals audios and haptics all come together that's when the feeling is really magical that's what really completes the intera the feeling of immersion um I guess I know haptics aren't available on every platform but when they're there please take advantage of them next up this category is environments simple thing we love huge spaces and this is another one where don't need to be limited by

reality you have vaulted ceilings and infinite stairways and towering ruins like these places are so compelling to humanity um but with those large spaces still divide up your world into smaller spaces that fit into your to your sort of physical tracking space so if you can divide up your world in such a way that within a typical tracking space for one of your users you can teleport into that space and then do all the interactions that you need within that space it's going to make it a lot easier for you to to uh to to teleport around that space we've even divided up some worlds in interesting ways where uh maybe on the on like we we'll think about our tracking space on that corner of the tracking space if you enter that that space you get into a Tramway that Tramway takes you up to a different corner or I guess well I guess it has to be exactly the same Corner in another track Space by laying out these Transformations between tracking spaces creatively you can really make your world feel enormous and the and your user will never have to leave the or they'll never even feel like they need to leave the uh the tracked

space uh next place objects in a way that keeps the player in the physical space this is kind of what I was talking about before so here's an example one let's say you're playing a game of golf so you you hit the golf ball it's over there I want to teleport to my golf ball the the typical thought process is oh I'll teleport such that that ball is right in front of me now if you modify that ever so slightly and instead teleport the ball to the center of the room you might need to take a couple steps to get in front of that ball again but you're never going to leave your tracking space space in contrast if you teleport the ball to right in front of you you're building up small amounts of air over time and eventually you're going to run into your physical wall so just think about that there's these are subtle differences number 26 texture everything even if it's just subtle Noise We I think we've all had the experience where we have false convergence on like a chain link fence or something this a repetitive pattern where you sort of like have a hard time figuring out the depth of something in VR when we have untextured surfaces we almost never encounter these untextured surfaces in real life they're always fingerprints smudges or scratches or

something give everything a little bit of a subtle noise texture just to allow your eyes to focus number 27 show the physical bounds in the virtual world so we we all know that when we're using something like Vive we can see the edges of of where the world is we have that little glowing rectangle when we get close to the wall we have our our chaperone grid don't make the user have to get that close to know where they are that information is generally exposed by the API put something in your virtual world that represents that and nobody will even be tempted to go beyond those bounds this is an easy one number 28 everyone loves particles just like put them in everywhere because they're freaking awesome I've seen so many experiences that we spend like weeks on and somebody will just say oh man I love the rain like you know it took like 10 seconds in unity just put particles everywhere all right scale scale is such an incredibly powerful tool in VR that I wanted to have a whole section on it number one accurate scale really matters and this is one of the reasons to start prototyping in VR immediately because if that door is 20% shorter than it's supposed to be you immediately notice uh

and there there there are also very powerful things that you can do to um to use scale scale can convey power or vulnerability so you know whether you're Godzilla size and marching through the streets of Tokyo or you're tiny and you really feel you're feeling what it's like to be for instance at the side of a blue whale um scale can be used to convey very powerful emotional experiences and even very subtle changes can have an effect we found that if we have two VI if we're doing a a co-present situ situation where we have two Vibes in different rooms and the rooms are calibrated ever so slightly off so that one floor is a little higher than the other floor those two players if they know each other in real life will immediately notice the height difference in virtual reality now you can use this in really interesting ways too you can make everyone the same height you can deliberately make someone taller you can make it so that somebody's uh their virtual head is a little bit uh a little bit ahead on top of where their their physical head is which means everyone looks taller to you um or you can make everyone look shorter

to you there are all kinds of interesting things that you can do that shape the social like kind of the social shape of the world that you're working in um and then you scale as a tool and this is a little bit of an extension of the dollhouse example that I showed earlier one of the pieces that we have in this dollhouse is what we call our little chest piece you can put that into the dollhouse teleport down and and shrink down and see that dollhouse from a doll size um and walk through that and it it really just gives you a very powerful feeling of being able to manipulate and then see from the ins side um number 32 when you change scale don't forget to change other things around scale physics and audio um physics is a really tricky one uh if you're if it's a single player experience and you're teleporting between different sizes you sort of expect physics to behave for acceleration to be at 9.8 m/s squared regardless of what size you're at so it should be relative to your size now this isn't always possible if you're in a co-present scenario and you have one giant player and one tiny player physics is going to have to be different for those two players uh my suggestion would

be to Anchor physics to be to seem correct for the smallest player because it's a lot less disconcerting to be that giant and see things kind of moving slowly through the air than to be that tiny player and see things moving incredibly quickly you know 980 m/s squared just doesn't feel right um audio also you know if you have a little tiny player um uh pitch up their audio and it just like it just feels right to people it feels more immersive that way all right co-presence this is a tricky one um number one players expect something to happen when they touch uh they're all and you know anyone who's experimented with co-present scenarios and created some prototypes in this area they've seen a lot of these same behaviors the first thing players do when they get into co-presence is they try to touch each other um so something should happen a shower of of Sparks a high five um but there's also like you know there are some negative consequences from that come from this desire to touch each other in VR uh and we need to figure out better ways of dealing with those one of those is that we don't want to reward bad behavior so

this is an example where we have a couple dogs playing poker um and we you know this is It's a poker there are very specific rules about how things should work um and here we have you know we have the opponent win and and the other one kind of walks over to take retribution and we have very simple things here the the world Fades to gray the audio dims down uh there's a glowing sphere that tells you where you're supposed to go back to and you disappear from this the world now none of these are terrible punishments it's not like a flashing sign that says please return to your seat it's just enough to say you're you're playing this experience wrong please go back to where you were supposed to be and that's really all that it takes so just very slight negative influences for antisocial behavior on the flip side of course do reward uh pro-social interactions and if you reward pro-social interactions so you know a shower of Sparks when you do a high five but not when you punch the face um people will people will do the pro-social interactions and not the negative interactions number 30 6 enforce social boundaries so people and this is you

know this people will do this thinking that it's a very innocent thing the first time people go into a co-present scenario they'll say I wonder what it feels like when I stand inside your body because you know this is something you can't do in the physical world Um this can be really uncomfortable it it is completely innocently intentioned but it can feel very uncomfortable for the other person so we just need to anticipate this especially right now at the beginning of VR a lot of people are having their very first VR experiences and if a lot of those experiences are bad we are shooting ourselves in the foot we need to be the ones who are responsible for creating a healthy ecosystem um so simple things you know make your make the opponent's body disappear as they enter your personal space bubble let people Define their own personal space bubbles um make allow someone to ban someone from a room or make them invisible we really need to think about um you know innocent behaviors are bad enough or can be bad enough we really need to think about when people are intentionally trying to be uh negative antisocial Behavior in VR uh number 37 this is an easy one

voice chat really multiplies immersion we find that if you have two people in different rooms um other people who are not in the vibe can still continue a conversation with those people until they're connected with each other by voice and at that point like the rest of the world just Falls away everything else becomes noise voice chat really really increases immersion um 38 put shared objects at the center of the space we did a couple different versions of a the co-president music making scenario in one all the instruments were on the outside of the room and what we found was that people would kind of just like do their own thing like they could hear their friend behind them doing doing something else but they weren't playing together when and some of this has to do with like the field of view that you have in VR if that other person isn't within your field of view you kind of just feel like they're somewhere else if you instead put all those instruments at the center of the room so that if you're playing one and your friend's playing another you're forced to face each other people started making music together it was just a complete difference in Behavior number 39 think about asymmetric experiences and this is

more of a thought experience when we get started in VR there aren't going to be a whole lot of VR devices out there what we're going to need to do is is find a way to involve the people who aren't in the headset in the experience of the other people so we've done some pretty crazy experience experiments where we have maybe one person in a daydream but everybody else can be on their phone and be connected to that experience um and maybe they're talking by voice we did one last week where the person in the Daydream headset is a cat trying to brush its teeth but it has no control over its arms it can only turn right and left the person on the controller is actually the one controlling the arms with forward kinematics and they have to grab the toothbrush and get it to the mouth I I know this is crazy but like these kinds of experiences are going to be really important for bringing people into the fold in VR all right next up avatars um of full body avatars I mean avatars are tricky and this is a place where I know people are going to disagree with me that's totally fine in our experience what we found is that um full body avatars are they can work very well if you're looking at another full body Avatar but

when you look down at your feet and you see them oriented in a different way than your physical feet are people find it uncomfortable and the further down you go on your body the more uncomfortable that gets so maybe you can find a good way to simulate the elbows but when you get down to the legs there's a good chance that you just want to make those disappear when you're looking at your own avatar they can be visible to everybody else that's okay 41 eyes are so important like just forward staring non-blinking eyes are so creepy and there are really simple things you can do to give those eyes a little bit of a brain we we literally call it the eye brain plugin on our side um these eyes are really simple they blink randomly um as you start to turn your head the eyes move forward they accelerate that uh that motion to anticipate the direction that they're going and it just makes them more lively there were some other great demos that I saw yesterday where people were um creating they were setting up their third party or their um their NPCs to to look where basically what was appropriate to look at kind of action so you don't want them to just stare but you might want them to kind of uh to

move their eyes between areas of interest in the space uh oops next up when you pick up an item that item can become your controller this is a kind of simple one I've seen this done pretty well rather than rather than crowding the the your visual space with both your virtual hands and also the item that you're picking up just make that item that you've picked up your controller and make everything else disappear um Beware Of The Uncanny Valley I we all kind of instinctively know this rule but the thing is it's it's so easy to follow in VR the reality is that when you're in co-present situations you don't need a particularly realistic head or hands to convey a ton of emotion so here you can just see like the emotion of these players comes through so clearly you don't need gure like it just it just comes through you just just like just send a couple Transformers over the network and you're golden all right user interfaces another really tough area in VR um simple one avoid user interfaces that require you to turn your head um you know lot of people think oh we're in VR VR especially when you're first getting

into VR they're like we basically have infinite screen real estate we'll put stuff all around us so overwhelming you need to really focus it right right up in front of you uh it can be just so overwhelming uh number 45 not too close not too far this is kind of a tricky one and it it depends on what the scenario is and what your headset is that you're using um you know we can think about the the way that we render in VR we think about our eyes as two separate cameras and there are two ways to focus cameras you have convergence so where the where those two you know two lines meet going forward and then you also have Focus so just like turning the focus knob on a camera most VR headsets are designed with a very specific distance at which convergence and focus are the same so the focus will basically be set at 1.5 to 3 m somewhere in that range if you're spending a lot of time in particular in the UI if you can put most of your stuff at that location where your headset is designed for focus and convergence meeting together together you're going to be able to spend the most time in

that experience and keep your eyes comfortable um number 46 keep the text big and now big is subjective right right now in this first generation or maybe second generation of V headsets um that like we don't have a whole lot of pixel density generally speaking you should you should sort of assume that you can get a lot less information into your UI than you could if you were designing for a typical mobile phone screen think about that as a constraint uh a couple points on smartphone VR this is sort of like its own little challenge here number one uh this one here number 47 a well-designed elbow model can make interactions feel natural so there are a lot of ways like sometimes we think with our like with our Daydream controller that's coming out soon you sort of think all we really have is a laser pointer but that's that laser pointer has first of all you can get a little bit of Accel acceleration information out of there but also if you think about rather than that accelerator rather than that like laser pointer just being attached to your belly button or something if you assume that let's say your player is right-handed or you let them choose their handedness and you

take that acceleration or the the orientation information and assume that that controller is attached to a rigid surface like an elbow you can get a pretty good estimate of where that hand might actually be in physical space and these are this is kind of just an example of where we're using the sorts of herur istics that we call an elbow model so some of you are probably already familiar with a neck model as well like we generally in VR we sort of assume that this is not the center of where we're pivoting our head it's actually somewhere back here we we take that into account it's the same kind of idea applied to your elbow instead of applied to your neck so just take that into account number 48 performance matters I mean performance matters for everything uh you know we really need to keep our frame ratees 60 60 FPS 90 FPS 120 FPS but with smartphone VR we just have a much smaller CPU and GPU budget all right couple minutes left let's get into the final takeaways uh number 49 check out what others are doing you don't have to go down all these dead end yourself like the I me probably know this which is why you're here right um

check out other people's successes check out other people's failures talk about what people have done share your prototypes encourage other people to share their prototypes we we're not in it alone and I really give credit to Val for establishing a very much like a culture of of openness and transparency from the very beginning in a lot of the design of the hardware and software um and number 50 finally you're a Pioneer think big like this is just the very start and we have barely scratched the surface of what's going to be done in VR um so don't just iterate on something that you that you've seen or tried already I really want to encourage you to have the the the the courage to take a big step in a totally new Direction and I really believe that the best VR experiences aren't going to be evolutionary offshoots of other forms of media they're going to be experiences that can really only exist in VR rather than thinking how can we adapt game X for VR think about what new doors have been opened by this Hardware that weren't open open before and with that

I'll open it up for questions thank you so I think we have time for maybe one or two questions and please use the mic hi you talked a little bit about the VR uh like the Daydream controller could you give more details about that like what the there'll be I the details are out there online but the basic idea is that you're sending orientation uh so it has a magnetometer and accelerometer and Gyros so you have access to acceleration uh and orientation so it's a three do controller but just because it's three do doesn't mean that you can only get orientation you can actually get a lot of data out of that controller um we've even done some experiments where for instance by moving forward or backward we sort of try to guess uh sort of circular spaces in front of the user and try to guess which one you're in um to get a little bit of six dness out of that controller uh so we're looking forward to lot more experiments there there's a uh uh we Google has released a

a thing called The Playground I think that's its external name uh where we basically give a uh 8 to 10 different demos of how you can use that controller for interesting applications other questions I think we might have one more there okay so you've made like 80 plus prototypes now are any of those becoming real things I sure hope so I I mean definitely a lot of this knowledge we're putting into our our various products across Google um there are lots of little prototypes that we've done where a team will say hey we want to test out this this particular user interface model or this particular interaction but it's just like you know working in our first party tools with rigorous code check-ins we can't do it quickly with what we have can you try that out and then we'll take those gems that you

figured out and put it into our products um but there are some products that I'm really excited for instance that animator system um currently we're working on making that a multiplayer system um which has a whole new level of complexity that gets added on top of that uh mind show has already done an amazing job of this I'm really looking forward to that being out uh but I'm I'm hoping that some more of these will become real products me too thanks thanks I think that's all we got time for it's about 10:2 but I'll be around if other people want to ask questions after thank you