How To Make Indie Games In 2025 w/ Edmund McMillen — Full Time Game Dev Podcast Ep. 029

Edmund McMillan is the creator of Super Meat Boy The Binding of Isaac and also he's currently working on a game called mug genics I mean he's made a ton of other Indie Games those are just a few uh I would call him it the OG indie game developer or at least one of them along with Jonathan Blow Phil fish and man this conversation was so good if you want to get into indie game development um this is the conversation to listen to Phil fish John Blow are both very very outspoken and get in trouble for it every day all day now Phil I don't know where he is now yeah he's not he's less outspoken and more just out so yeah you're a you're incredibly honest as well you're you're like you you tell me before the podcast you're like hey I don't want to know the show notes let's just let's just go for it and my question for you is like is it is it just a coincidence that the three of you who were part of this OG indie game documentary is it a coincidence that

you're all that way like did they handpick the most outspoken Indies to be part of that documentary or did that documentary create that because you guys got so you guys got so much attention probably more than you thought and it probably hurt a little bit because it's like you probably got a lot of criticism I don't know did you did it create that I I I mean I've always had criticism it's I don't think I if something that I say or do doesn't get criticism that I think I'm doing something incorrectly oh I like that because I mean that means I'm softball in it and I'm vanilla right I don't want to be that I don't want to be a normal person but um I think that indie game so indie game the movie actually started with a shitload of De developers it was going to be a talking headpiece where it was just going to be a bunch of people talking about their games and it I think they had like 10 to 12 people and it was before it was

during a time where I was like all of my peers are getting rich and I have no money and um I'm hustling as much as I possibly [ __ ] can but I don't seem to be doing enough and I heard Whispers at that there was a a group of Canadian filmmakers at GDC that were filming different interviewing different people for um for documentary on indie games and I was I saw it as an opportunity to put myself out there more and in hopes that I could get more more eyes on me more eyes on my work in so I can make a living in the future and so it was an opportunity to talk because I felt like I had something to say that that was different than other people and I actually reached out to them after they had interviewed I think Tommy or at least talked to Tommy like all these people were getting interviewed before before before I was even being was your

partner yeah yeah for for um for Super Meat Boy yeah and he he told me about him he's oh there's this you know I also didn't do like GDC as much um I don't really like doing those things but me neither they're stressful they wear me out dude they do yeah I mean it takes a certain type of person to to do that I mean it's fun when you're in it and you're riding it it's like you're you're at a rave or something right and then you just hit that you hit that low right afterwards and you're dying and you're like never do this again and the buildup to it sucks but yeah yeah it so it was going to be this you know 10 plus developer piece kind you know no no flow like like no like story kind of going through it it was just going to be a bunch of different developers talking about their games and um which was fine uh it had been done before um and they came over to my house to interview me

about my whole work um I think they focused on ether at the time which I had released and it was nominated for an award um at some festival and um they had me talk about that and I didn't hear from from a while and they were like hey are you f we're thinking about focusing on just you for the trailer for the kickstarter and I was like okay and they're like we're not sure what we want to do yet but you know I think we want to maybe film the development of your current project which your Super Meat Boy and um yeah they just put out if you like look it up like the original indie game the movie trailer for the kickstarter it was just me talking about ether and that was I think that was kind of their sales pitch for what they what they wanted to do um and again it could have still just been a talking headpiece but they they ended up filming you know the beginning middle and end of Super Meat Boy

development and that became the the thread that kind of went through the through the movie and then Phil and then John I think they were I think it was like we were the development to release Arc John was the veteran who had already released yeah it was and then Phil was the one who was trying to get to release yeah and he wasn't published at the time right yeah and you were you had Xbox money um Microsoft money right um well he had Canada money does that count I heard that's a loan hey uh sorry to interrupt we we'll get back to the conversation in just a sec I wanted to let you know below is a totally free little workshop uh that I created it tells you how to make gorgeous 2D gameart in less than an hour the cool thing is look I know how it is um I'm not particularly a genius artist but anybody with just some understanding of color and simple shapes can make some beautiful 2D art so while you're listen listening to the podcast

feel free to just click the link below um and enroll in that free Workshop I think you're going to learn a ton okay let's get back to the conversation with Ed I don't know I've I've heard you have to pay back Canada if they give you that money I don't I don't know I I think I don't know if that's true I think they just give you money like they they support the Arts up there but um you can kill yourself but you can you can um make really good art you can make really good art before you do so that's right you can make killing yourself you can be funded Yeah by making killing yourself into an AR and if you fail killing yourself you get free health care so you can go to the hospital totally free yeah yeah you just got to wait you just got to wait for it that's right four months um but yeah um I think that naturally they picked the people not only with the in those spots but also the ones that I get had the biggest

personalities and opinions maybe yeah um and I mean that it makes sense they they they doubl down on what what worked and uh where the most drama could could happen I even I even talked to U I talked to L lisan and Jamie um semi often and they just sent me a bunch of Blu-rays because I think the Blu-ray Edition just just came out or is coming out and they I remember asking them about Phil like did you do do you guys feel like you edited to make him look bad or crazy and they're like we cut we did a favor yeah like they were like no absolutely not we've really tried our best to frame him in by the way if Phil's listening right now I want to say Phil I want to talk to you I want to talk to Phil I don't care who you are I want to talk to people and

figure out what makes him tick I would love to talk to Phil um I'm just fascinated Phil talked to Phil since he faded um and I know I know he's still making art and I know he's still Phil fish and I know he's floating around in The Ether and I have a feeling that he might you know pop back up again yeah um but that's it that's all I know it's been it's been like a couple years since I talked to him yeah well I I'm really fascinated by what you just said because about if you're not getting criticism you feel like you're doing something wrong um I I as a as a YouTuber not nearly as much attention as you've gotten but as a YouTuber I have gotten negative comments and Thomas is this and Thomas is that and like it's dude it like sticks with me and it lives in my brain and it never leaves and I hate that and I just want to I'm curious like have you are you naturally somebody who can take criticism and you kind of enjoy it or

have you had to learn to to be okay with the criticism and also what what is some criticism you've gotten you know I mean I've gotten the full Gambit of criticism over the years so criticism is good when it's it's legitimate John so JN is somebody that I will call up and say play my game and tell me what you think and I know that he'll give me honest harsh criticism yeah um I have a few friends that are like that and they're very valuable to me I'm very harsh on myself and my work um a harsh critic is is can be a good thing as long as the person is that you believe the person's opinions are valid um I mean it's good to kind of blur your eyes and see like if a lot of people are saying you know this channel is boring right then you're doing something wrong if it's a large number of people that are generally saying that like this sucks blah blah blah blah blah but then I would also question that if there was

a lot of people saying it was boring there's a lot of people looking and obviously you know what I mean yeah there's something in that too I mean I you can dissect criticism and figure some stuff out from it and take take what you want and then you know edit edit as you go um but yeah I can take criticism um especially valid criticism and I can admit to where I need to improve um if I'm not being criticized that it it means either uh no one cares or I'm so good that I'm perfect which I know is not true so I would be scared if people weren't uh saying something you know what I mean and and criticism is is a kind of a blanket ter it it is there's criticism and then there's there there there's critique like that's like hey your game is this way and I wish it was

better blah blah blah but then there's like like did you ever get did you ever get hate from that documentary and from who you are on social media and your personality blah blah blah did you get that I don't expect people to like me because I know you know not I don't I can rub people the wrong way so like I know my personality is not everyone's cup of tea I think the general the general hate that I get is my stuff is is edgy to be edgy it's void of artistic value it's gross it's immature they're Far and Beyond it um I get a lot of uh The Binding of Isaac would be so much better if somebody else made it that that wasn't me um because all I all I do is dark edgy humor that is immature and stupid and what does that affect you at all no I mean I like movies that people say that

about so of course I would have I would make stuff that's similar like and like it's just not what are you gonna do like I there's no way I can appease those people um I get some enjoyment of when people are like I really hate The Binding of Isaac's themes and Aesthetics but I love the gameplay it's like ah I gotcha bastard wasn't that whole that's the whole point right to bring someone your world with a good mechanic yeah yeah exactly like I'm the kind of guy who and this is exactly who I was if if we were if we were if you were in a class with me in high school and there was music played uh by the teacher I would be the guy who would say hey can I have a turn can I play my music for the class yeah because I really want to show everybody my world yeah and I love it I mean that's why I'm doing what I'm what I'm doing for the

most part like I really like entertaining with my aesthetic with my vibe like I I think that a lot of stuff that I like that a lot of people don't like has a great deal of value and I feel like more people would enjoy it if given the chance yeah so I like to put it in front of people like I like to be I like to curate I like to do that sort of stuff it's just naturally in me MH and in a lot of ways like my games are curations of all the [ __ ] that I really like there's a lot of nods to a bunch of different things that once you dive in deep and start googling these things you realize where they're from and maybe you'll end up listening to some music or watching a movie that you wouldn't normally watch because of something that I created which is really cool because I really enjoyed those things dude what do you think you'd be doing if you weren't doing this like let's say you Super Meat Boy just didn't land and think The Binding of Isaac never came in your

brain what would you be doing right now and would you be happy I would hope I would be happy um I mean I would be doing some sort of art I I mean I could definitely see myself I could I could be a meat Canyon or you know smiling friends type yeah cartoonist um I could see myself doing that I could see myself being an Alex party artist you know I could see myself doing that um but I chose the stupidest most long- winded [ __ ] art form that has ever existed I was just talking to my wife about this I was like I feel like I've just chosen a p and I also do YouTube stuff man so like and I also teach and it's like what am I doing like because I used to do flash animations on new grounds and I used to make movies and I used to just do stupid stuff that took me like two weeks to make you know and then you'd get views and people would

laugh at it and they'd like it and you would it was so it was so instantly rewarding you know when I was a teenager and in my 20s and now it's like dude I've been working on this game for three years and this is my third game and every time I do a game it takes like minimum two to three years yep and I'm like why did I choose this path I mean I think it's because of money I mean it's just that you could build a profitable product whereas with like short animations I'm not sure you could do that um at least there's a trick to it you can when you roll the dice with games there's a higher probability of something paying I mean is there though let's talk about this let's talk about the industry right now um it seems like so John Blow he was on the podcast he talked about this so I don't feel bad talking about it bra anniversary edition didn't land very well and he he talked about how like well looking back it's kind of obvious why it didn't it's an old game you know um but he spent a lot

of time and money remastering braid yeah and 2024 did not embrace the game um like he hoped it would if I re-release Super Meat Boy right now I feel like it the same thing would happen yeah yeah it's exactly the same like I don't think that that it that it works for those type of games a platformer I I re-released Gish it didn't [ __ ] really no care yeah no well when you say that though it made a good amount of money for Alex you know the guy that I made it with like he need he needed some money and we re-released it and it and it sold it sold sold enough for him to pay rent and um yeah which is good when was that when when did you release that I don't know like three years four years ago okay man okay so the big question here is like like I had funding I had I've mentioned this on Twitter uh

so it's no like it's not like an announcement but like 3D Realms my publisher we're still published um I'm still GNA release with 3D Realms but uh our sort of last one of our last payments they were like we we just can't um continue we we need to cut we need to cut the budget for and and this is happening across the board with Publishers yeah like Publishers are just like they're getting scared of Indies um so my question to you is number one you agree that the industry is kind of weird right now for Indies and number two if it is what do we do what what's the solution here um yeah I I think I think that it was the devolver boom um which also happened around the same time where epic was like buying up Indies yep it was this little behind the scenes gold rush I guess was that 2015 2016 17 when was that 171 18 okay okay

yeah it's like dude it was like all these companies had money coming out of their nose it was crazy yeah for sure I mean I I was hearing some wacky stuff with and and I was working with epic as well mostly to just kind of see numbers go up yeah I worked with Apple app Apple arcade they they bought one of my games and it was like unbelievable the money they were spending that's not there anymore um and it and it is because that like I think so what happens is when there's a big boom of something and I've seen it happen multiple times like in the um in the late 2000s there was this Indie boom bubbling up and that was when like Xbox Live and and all the we wear and they were starting to like being like Oh Indies are an option for the future a lot of people are talking about it this is a cool new thing and for suits it's just it's a trend they see a trend happening and they decide to throw money at it and see what happens so there's just like a bunch of people that have a shil load of

money which I found were called seed investors and Angel Investors and they throw money at these things that it's like oh you know fidget Spinners are the new thing you know that sort of for a pocket of time indie games were this new thing and I started to just get random emails from these people saying I want to give you money and I'm like okay you can give me money and then they would be like well you got to do this this and this and play by these rules and do the and I'm like I don't want to do that um I had people coming up to me and taking me out to dinner to ask me about what what what I thought about doing a handheld Flash game console isn't that crazy and I said people are playing these games on their computer for free so I don't know if that's gonna actually translate well um yeah I saw stuff that eventually turned into stuff like congregate and and like all these different websites and it's like this this tie whoosh it flows over and then it drop down again and then it came up again um and around the time

where like devolver was just like taking in shitloads of Indies and and there were hits there were hits that were happening like Hotline Miami and stuff like that yeah um and people just saw that as oh we just throw money at Indies it doesn't matter like it doesn't matter who you are what you've done are you're Indie that's cool that's why like that that's the thing and then they just they just throw they just throw money at it and some are are more you know I'm not saying that that all these people are idiots but it the the vibe for the more not in the no people literally just were throwing money at Indies um and it doesn't necessarily translate to profits because it's [ __ ] random and you don't know what what it is that's going to

happen and I'll tell you another thing you give Indies and this is no no shade no shade here to you you give an indie money they'll take their [ __ ] time and that's the truth yes they will um and I think a lot of that happens a lot too like you you take the wind out of their sales in a lot of the ways like you got to you got to have that struggle in order to really sometimes I see so a publisher a publisher 2025 a publisher might they might have a different approach like if I was a publisher and I've thought about becoming a publisher to be honest with you if I was a publisher I would kind of be a control freak oh yeah but they're not but they're not they're not they're blind to everything they're looking the other way I would say I would because it's like it's almost like uh if it and I'm not going to do this because it's just if I was an [ __ ] publisher in 2025 and I wanted to get some a return on my

investment what I would do is I would say you got to tell me where the money's going you got to tell me who your team is and you got to tell me uh and we're gonna have like monthly Milestone meetings to discuss every freaking thing because there's dude but that's a lot of work for you I know it is but I've had so many meetings with Publishers where they're like yeah we had to cut this project and we had to cut that project and cut this project and I say well why and they go well it just ballooned and it scope creep and it just ballooned out of control and we can't keep funding it and I'm like well that's your fault in a way like you gota keep you gotta keep TS on who you're investing to suffer on the the the the downfall of all these other people that could get together or people just not doing their jobs yeah no it's um I I have a few Windows into the industry um especially large companies I've seen I've seen large companies I have friends at large companies who are like oh my God the amount of [ __ ] money that these people are just throwing at nothing it's just astounding and I'm

thinking like and I'm still in this mindset right it's it's really hard for me I'm still I'm a cheap person you know I grew up poor I understand what money is and for me My Success could end at any point and all my money could go away and that's how I I usually like kind of think about these things you're on thin ice you feel that way all the time and it's hard for me to hear like oh so and so publisher gave this pretty green team $15 million to work with and they spent it all in two years and there no there's no end in sight I'm thinking like I'm thinking like why aren't you well my needs are because why are you giving me this money to do this like I could do it I could get the job done but then you know maybe I couldn't but yeah no it's it's it's almost like a casino it's like it's like there's a lot of money in this industry that's the reality there's

a yes yes there's an astounding amount of money in video games and there are people in suits that are playing that that are rolling the dice and just being like I'm gonna give this company a billion dollars because the video game industry makes x billion dollars a year so I'm gonna do give a billion dollars into this and I'm going to invest in and see what happens maybe I maybe it works maybe it doesn't there's a lot of money flowing around in the mainstream a tremendous Title Wave of money and it just kind of goes nowhere because people are doubling down on the all these crazy things and then when the money dries up they go well I'm not going to take any risks anymore like we're gonna do a sequel like we're gonna just do a sequel of something that already worked because that is a guaranteed that's at least guaranteed to recoup whatever we invest in that maybe we'll make some money back off of these other things that failed and this is where Indies come in

and this is the [ __ ] batro situation here you need to have these people who are off in the corner over there just doing their own [ __ ] because they love to do it not thinking about money not worrying about it because they're the ones that are going to end up coming up with the next thing that you can [ __ ] clone a million times and make money off of it because it was already established yeah um but it's it can be very hard hard to see that like yes I feel like if I played that game before it releas I would say wow this is really good and it's gonna do huge yeah this is really clever like this is really welld designed and I can see it winning awards that said I played Minecraft before it came out and I said I don't get it and I don't like it you like it now I get it now you get it now I get it now I totally get it now I I totally understand now I didn't know people would be playing it like that yeah I

didn't know like I I didn't I didn't I couldn't Envision that so even with my experience and me talking all this talk and saying all this [ __ ] I've thought about it like well where what can I do to invest my reinvest my money I could invest in Indies I could invest in what I know right yeah and I could find these people and do whatever else but it's like but I also know the pitfalls of all of this and I don't want to be the bad guy wait what's the pit what are the pitfalls just I know that the more chefs in that kitchen the shittier the food's going to be but don't you have to have chefs in the K like most you need you need a you need at least one that is telling everybody else what to do two maybe sure yeah you keep going and it gets [ __ ] up and then you just have clashing personalities and you have loose ends that could destroy everything like you've got this like it's hard enough for me the so all of the games that I've ever worked on have always been me and a

programmer doing all of the heavy lifting and then there is then we contract out a musician or a team of musicians and a sound effects guy is always like the little extra on the side right Mugen is the first project that I'm like I can't do this anymore like I can't do all this heavy lifting it's completely not not going to happen I need an animator became because I because I have kids because I have a wife I was going to say dude I with I I just had my third and she's six months old and I was I was dreaming sorry to to go on a tangent here interrupt you but like I was dreaming two weeks ago I was like oh what about the Glory Days when I was making games alone and I burn through the day and like I was dreaming about it and then I opened up unity and I was like [ __ ] I don't I actually don't want to do this alone anymore um it's exhausting and because it's like you got

your kids in the morning you get them ready for school uh and then you you sit down you start working and you you work eight hours alone on a game and then you're off and you go downstairs and then you've got three kids jumping all over you until bedtime and You by the time you're you're going to bed you're like I don't have energy to do another day like of all this work and so for me it's like the solo life I'm I'm gonna probably necessarily have to do it in 2025 just because funding was pulled blah blah blah but and so I might have to grind a little bit which sucks because like my fourth I'm on my I'm going to start my fourth commercial game it's like why am I still here but I will say that there's there's I could probably do it for maybe a month and then I'm gonna have to go find someone else to help because it's you're right it's exhausting it is exhausting it's un it's unrealistic at at a at a point yeah um and I don't like it I didn't like it because it's really hard for me it was it's has been really hard for me

there been a series of events that have forced me into this situation uh the first was four souls which was like I can't draw all of these things wait Ed what situation what are you talking about what situation the situation where I don't do all the work I see got it's not just me and another programmer yeah um I really want it to be I really like that I like having complete control and I like just I don't like the game of telephone that I have to do with people some times where I have to be like I can't I I have a hard enough time explaining to Tyler um who I'm working on Eugenics with the vision that I have for the vibe of the game it's like there's so many little bits and pieces and so much unspoken there's no words for these things it's just like abstract ideas and pictures and stuff in my head that I cannot communicate well to him so I like I I really have to lean on a lot of programmers that I work with to just trust me and just trust that trust that

I've got this side handled and I'm going to do it now having to like explain that to another person and explain like why why a certain character can't have a too much of an exaggerated smile on their face because of all of these ideas that I won't even put in the game because they're just in my head and they don't to be in the game it's very difficult for me and yeah I've struggled with it but there's also a little bit of magic where I did this thing um early in development with mugic where I'm like I can't do these [ __ ] backgrounds I can't draw these backgrounds this this the style that we're going for you know is it's just not going to work I'm going to have to hire some people and I hired two different artists to have two completely different styles and I utilized one for these painterly

backgrounds these like more realistic painterly ones and then one for these more cartoony exaggerated 30s 30s to 50s background um cartoon style ones yeah yeah and what I would do is I would give them both information about these different worlds and parts of the game and I would give them and this I do this similar to music too I give them a lot of adjectives I get them a lot of feelings I give them a lot of weird ideas and then they just put it together and when they do I've what I've been doing now to kind of get get a to let go of my control freakness it's a volley now so I throw that at I throw the ball at them and then when they throw the b ball back at me there's usually something little here and there that they put in that I didn't say uhuh and then I pull from that and I throw it to the other artist and then

they throw it back to me and I throw it to the musician and it's just like there's been a lot of little bits and pieces that I didn't necessarily come up with but somebody else interpreted for my words it's it sounds expensive you know it's like it's all this time being spent sort of discovering it's almost like an archaeological dig right well I'm not spending it I spent two seconds thinking about it and then I move on to the next thing do they ever feel do your team members ever feel like you're not taking their work seriously because it's like they give you something and then you you say you know I don't really like that and you toss it I don't toss it I'm not saying I toss it I'm saying they put some element of themselves or they translate my idea in a way that is not correct with my brain yep but interesting uh so I'm able to then retranslate that back into the game and then throw it back to another artist abstractly who then throws it back um

I'm trying to think of like a good example what one would be there's this this is a a very Bland example but um I so Maas was doing these different bits uh for the this radio station for the game there's a radio that randomly plays um and it's fully randomly generated cool so like when when a when a when the DJ says like oh next up is going to be black [ __ ] you know whatever it is um it's a song uh and and he does his little bit um there's like 10 of those variants of the intro to black [ __ ] and then there's outros to it where he does a little you know 10 different comments on that too so every time that song plays yeah there's a some new spice to it that feels like this it's whatever and he did I had him do a series of like kind of print call bits and stuff and there was one prank call where I'm like oh this

like the I really like that it sounds like you can hear somebody on the phone and they're outside and there's cars going by and stuff and it reminded me of um of like a man on the street on the like doing like oh it would be cool to have like man on the street radio guy come in or whatever to say some nonsense about what's happening like there's a been a disaster in Boon County or whatever else and I'm like oh I know I know know this guy who was like my personal hero his name is Carl Edge and he made a show called fish Masters which was this Indie um TV show in the Bay Area and uh I I called him up and I was like would you he had this character called Jimmy The Hammer Valentine who was an ex porn star who who did it's a show from the 90s by the way 1993 yeah uh my goodness I'm looking it up who also did the voice of like a a My Little Pony character or something that's part of the lore but um that's hilarious so Niche by the way I've never heard of this oh no you wouldn't it's amazing

though it's phenomenal and I was like oh my God like would you want to reprise your role as Jimmy The Hammer Valentine and do a few of these man on the street bits and he's like yeah I'll do it so he I had him start doing all these bits and like I was really again really loose I'm like do something about aliens do something about a disaster do something about food poison you know that sort of stuff yep and he did this two recurring themes of um pinky winkies he kept saying oh pinky winkies there's been a recall pinky winkies store the kids are vomiting out front and dying whatever so it was like I he kept saying it so I'm like okay I'm gonna pull that into the game and make this a thing yeah um and then he would he would also reference is like oh I've got this the lav mic from DJ Bill it's got like crusted ear wax on it and all you know whatever I'm like a [ __ ] DJ

Bill it would be cool to have this character that that he's referencing I could develop him a little bit and have there be these like late night DJ Bill segments that go nowhere where he's just introduced because you've heard about this guy DJ Bill I want to turn DJ bill into a real person and then he will talk about his canceled show that doesn't exist yep and so I asked again him PR's role of DJ Bill and then it's it's a lot of riffing and that's I mean that's what I absolutely love about how I work I'm sure all of this was in your game design document right I hate I hate game design documents I'm starting too I'm starting to realize dude I'm especially with Indie titles it's like there's two of us there's three of us we don't need a gdd uh there's there's no reason to communicate through a doc and also uh I think making games would

you agree that making games is is you're discovering it while you make it um yeah of course I have a rough idea of like I think it does the game of huge a huge disservice to tell the game that you know exactly how it should be from the get-go because that's not true the game will find itself if you let it and it it it's like raising a child like are you going to force this kid into be you're going to [ __ ] play football ball you're going to do this this and this no you're going to see what the kid likes and you're going to lean towards the things that they like like and it's the same way with any kind of art projects where like you you stay open yeah you stay open so you can pivot because if you can't you're gonna just force this thing into the into this terrible monstrosity and um yeah yeah it's also going to be not fun to work on like it's you're killing you're killing the the magic and the Mystery of the art like

the the artistic side the the the abstract aspect of creation like you're killing that you're stifling it completely by saying this has to be like this as you go I would love to tell you like I have examples of exactly what I'm talking about because I just pivoted recently almost for a gag because I thought it would be funny but it was a a consider con uh it's a pretty big pivot basically there's a bunch of NPCs in the game mtic yeah and at the midpoint of the game something happens and I thought wouldn't it be funny if this NPC changed completely what does that mean that means me having to do a redraw a bunch of new NPCs and new environments and whatever else but it was so [ __ ] funny like how could I not do that and then and then we talked about like wouldn't it be [ __ ] funny if we

just ran the credits right there like the game ends and why not and why not and like yeah it's a lot of that I mean that's what is exciting about making things there's a conundrum here it's like a catch 22 something like a catch 22 where um if you're financially constrained okay so I felt financially constrained this summer because we had the money to work with from our publisher and that was what we were going to work with and so I had a team and I'm sitting here going okay we've got these milestones and we've got these deadlines there is no budget there's no room in the budget and there's no room in the schedule to have fun and play around with ideas and but but there's also the other side of the coin which is when you have a lot of freedom and a lot of money then suddenly you you don't the hunger and the drive yeah and you know about both

don't you like that you know that moment like with with uh with Super Meat Boy in the documentary you were just like like where wrap it up yeah and you're just like so tense and you're so tired and stressed and you you bitterly resent your project I mean I don't know if you felt that way but I feel that way I've I've resented I've resented projects I have in the past and it it's kind of like raising a child and it's like I thought I raised you right son and then he's 25 years old and he's in prison that's the feeling that's the feeling of building a game that you hate it's like it's been three years why did I do this but okay so you've got that what I'm trying to say is like there's that feeling of constraint Financial constraint that actually drives you forward and creates these crazy awesome ideas that come out of like The Ether but if you have two two if you don't have anything at all then if you have too much freedom and too much money around forever yeah you just you'll just and and your ideas will become watered down and and and and

maybe boring and so my question to you is like a lot of people listening right now they're probably like well it's easy for Ed and I know people probably think this way about you and it's unfair but what they'll do is they'll say well Ed's super successful and of course he can dick around and do what he wants I was [ __ ] around and doing what I wanted when I had no money and working at GameStop okay that was really what my question is is did you were you always this way is this in DNA oh yeah I can't have okay and it and it could just be my personality flaw I don't think I could ever have a job at a company I was honest with myself about that very early on I don't think I could work for somebody else I don't think I could have somebody tell me what to do it's very difficult for me it pains me deeply inside and it makes me resent people um me too it wasn't there it never was there for me to just do that so I couldn't do it and my limitations forced me into what I'm doing now

um if I'm not being creative and doing what I'm doing then I'm very unhappy and if I'm very unhappy I'm on the verge of not existing and I've learned at a very young age how to satiate that feeling um how to keep myself happy um and it's not just being creative you know it's being a [ __ ] weirdo collector and there's a lot of things that are weird about me and I've learned how to give those things what they want in order to give me the juices that my brain needs to function and continue to move forward huh and I just became more efficient at making myself happy and I learned what I what I needed and I did that and that's so your it is your happiness directly correlated to having autonomy over your identity yeah 100% is that true of

everybody I don't know I I assume not I don't know I think about that all the time because I think about all my friends who are working jobs and they tell me to my face they say yeah I hate my job and I'm like okay I know that's the most depressing thing to ever I don't get it but they're fine they live their life and in a weird way they're less anxious than I am because I'm like sitting here trying to run a YouTube channel and build a business and make games and I'm like frantic I'm like a squirrel always trying to find like the next thing and I'm I'm satisfied I don't know if I'm actually happy I'm satisfied in my autonomy and I feel purposeful but then I look at all my friends and they're just like chill but they say they hate their job and I'm like what's wrong with me like what is my what's my problem here is it because I'm a selfish [ __ ] and I just don't want to uh I don't want to give the Reign to a boss I can't quite figure it

out I I think it's a personality type thing some might also say it's I mean it I've learned from having children and passing things on to them and learning things for my wife I I've I've had a lot of like usual suspects moments lately where I'm like oh my God me and everyone in my family is [ __ ] and and I say that in a literal you can don't censor that word I mean it I'm not saying it isn't that word now I don't know I'm not saying it in a derogatory way I'm saying it in the literal way of my of our brains don't it something is not right yeah yeah and something is not right in my bloodline and something is not right in my wife's bloodline and now we have kids and something's not right like y'all are control freaks about your what you do with your time like you need we have things that are wrong wrong it's called neurod diversions there are very

apparent things and I was you know I was diagnosed with ADHD um and um dyslexia growing up it's strong on my dad's side my dad same same deal also Tourette Syndrome my dad has Tourette Syndrome it runs in my family um I've had ticks on and off but never super bad um which leans into obsessive compulsive I have OCD which my my daughter now also has OCD um and all of these broken parts of who I am and who my dad was and who his father was and same thing with my wife and her her parents made this um and this is how I am and this is how I work and all the things that are wrong with me are is simply what you have here and that it it's forced me it's just forced me into this way of being it's like this

is how I think this is how I process you know this is why I'm honest this is why I care this is you know and that's those those things it's it's I'm I'm I have a lot of these flaws that um come off of eccentricity ities and and it's in it's just like you know a bunch of rocks hit together and created the Earth you know it's just random random [ __ ] happen stance sure um you know it's like you said something you said what's wrong with me is who I am it's almost like what's wrong with you is what's right with you um it's like the things that right with this with in this world in this pocket but in the functional world out there with everybody else it doesn't work yeah it doesn't work at all thank God for new grounds thank God for YouTube

and and uh games I could never go get a job somewhere like I couldn't I I couldn't I couldn't do it like I I can't I can't be happy doing a lot of things like it I'm am not able to to do it do you feel lonely in the in your in the real world no I mean I have my wife and she's just like me I have kids and and I and I have curated a group of a friend group of neuro Divergent weirdos as well who love playing Magic and you know like I've gravitated towards this environment where like I work with programmers and most programmers tend to be neurodivergent and I get it like I I can talk to these people and I'm like yes I understand um and I enjoy that personality type um the you know emotions down logic up personality type um I work I work work well with those people

and I work well with artistic weirdos who tend to also be similar to me and I have a friend group that gravitates obsessively towards a game like magic the Gathering and you know the type of people who play those games Y and I'm not saying casually I'm talking about play those games you know we like that they're all really really popular Attractive people yes who have their who have their social [ __ ] together man they go to they party hard they love sports and they're happy working best bu 9 to5 did hey did you ever yeah did you ever have a phase in your life where you felt like you needed to try and be normal um like did you ever like for example in high school or your 20s you were like maybe I should try like maybe I should try to be cool or like hang out

with the normal guys did you ever feel that or do you just like as a as a kid and this is going to sound really horribly sad as a child I have vivid memories of laying in the bath and ringing out a washcloth on my face and meditating and thinking I'm washing away all the weird parts of me and all the bad parts of me like I'm I've got to get rid of the way I am because it's not working and I'm causing problems like it it was a very uncomfortable I grew up and I did not like feeling how I felt I found a few friends growing up I always had like one friend um who I was really close to and of course they were all the big weirdos and uh outcasts and that was good enough for me one was always good enough and I never ever felt the need to try to do any anything different because for whatever reason I always had this amount

I had confidence I think it's something that my my grandma instilled in me she really believed in me and without saying it specifically she would talk about my my mind and how my mind is different than other people but it's good because it's Unique like and I I have to tell like when my daughter comes home from school or whatever else and says you know the kids call me a weirdo it's like well that's not it's not a bad thing no not would you would you weirdo means different and would you why wouldn't you want to be different and I guess that's just kind of like how I've always thought it never made sense to me why anybody would want to be like other people I don't want to be like other people and I don't want to make things like other people and I strive to avoid that because it's it's I think it's Unique personalities mindsets art and you know that's that's what makes the world go around like

that's what people care about again it's the whole vanilla like you don't if if if no one's saying something and saying hey don't say that hey you shouldn't be doing that or why did you do that or what's wrong with you and whatever else then maybe you should you know I would much rather people I'm more comfortable with people yelling at me and saying what's wrong with you than not saying anything at all how do you how do you know if there's something in you that should be fixed because like okay when it's not working right okay so there's there is there is um the first the first big question here is uh are people 100% who they should be by default or are there things about Ed that it's like well you need you actually do need to work on your temper or your control or I'm constantly trying self-improvement as much as I possibly can so how do you know when something is

is not your Forte it's actually not good and you do need to quote unquote wash it away when I don't leave the house when when when my panic attacks make me vomit like you know like it when when life is unli unlivable when life becomes unmanageable then I know oh [ __ ] I should probably do something um so it's B basically for you it's like it sounds like what you're saying is it's really hard to know until you've hit rock bottom what your your actual problems are not no no because I know what my problems are it's it's once I become once it becomes unmanageable like you you got to Dance with the Devil a little bit to keep life exciting you know what I mean and I One once you've sold your soul then you're [ __ ] done like it's

it's over but you know the devil is alluring and exciting and makes things interesting so you I don't want to lose who I am and all my flaws but I also don't but I also want to be alive yeah it's it's it's it's the balance of those things like um and it can definitely come at the expense of of well I'll speak for me it can come at the expense of my children oh yeah when I'm like but this is who I am this is who I am and then who I am makes my daughter cry yeah like Thomas is I'm like my my brain is obsessive so I'm like it's always going and there's always gear spinning of how do I do this and how do I do that and how do I make that better and blah blah blah usually with work and then I go downstairs and I'm thinking as I'm going down the stairs I'm thinking at 5: p.m I'm thinking um man I'm such a I'm so unique my brain is so unique I'm so special and then I get downstairs and my daughter's saying something to my face

and I I don't hear what she's saying because I'm in here oh yeah and that for me that's sort of my red line which is like you know you kids kids have a way of of just bringing out the real problems the things that are actually problems in your life that you do need to change you know what I mean oh yeah oh they they're also really helpful at realizing priorities well me that's basically what you're saying like my um a lot of my major issues have dropped away because I have to be there for my kids and you just got to do it but I mean the thing that you're saying though is that you the fact that you realize that this is what a therapist would tell you the fact the fact that you take pause and you know that that's happening means that you're a good dad think so yeah 100% because a majority of a majority and I'll say that a majority of dads don't give a [ __ ] and a lot of them don't give a [ __ ]

because their life sucks and they hate their life and they got married too young and had kids too young and there's a myriad of different bad things that happened but I would say a majority of of dads out there it's it's fleeting like it's just a thought that comes and goes but you obviously you had kids for you you set out to have children and you and the fact that they are in your head because I know I feel the same way like I I feel like right now um finishing this [ __ ] game up uh which will hopefully come out next year um uh once it's done I'm sure I'll work on a DLC but I really need to take some time away and I need to help my kids you know I need to be there more for them um and help at the house you know things just kind of fall apart when I'm when my mind it's not that I'm it's not you know this it's not that I'm working in here it's that I'm working in here and that's

that's the bad part like I hate myself when my wife says something to me and I didn't hear it because I was thinking about something about the game and it's really hard as an independent developer or an artist in general to not constantly be living in the project um trying to fix it you know trying to problem solve and trying to do XYZ it's hard to in the moment um and I used to I got better at that I've gotten better but I used to hear that a lot like my wife would say I need you he with me and that was like that was like a catchphrase like I need you here with me and she would Pat my Pat my leg it's like okay let's go back into reality and yeah in this it is it it often times feels like my work is is a is my mistress that's what my wife told me she said you're married she said you're married to most games which is my studio and she said you love her more

than you love me and how do you argue with that I mean if that like if that's what she's seeing and feeling yeah and my wife knows me better than I know myself so it's like what do you say I mean what I have said in the past is no I'm not or you're reading into it too much but now I'm learning I'm like no yeah that's probably true it's hard I mean it's there's a there's a lot of things going on here and I'm sure a lot of it has to do with this like uh male biology and just feeling like I Gathering I need to provide I need to I'm what I'm doing is providing and you're getting dopamine from providing and it feels good so you're doing it and you feel like you need to do more you need to do more because you need to stock up for the Justin cases well I'm sitting here going didn't Binding of Isaac provide already like aren't you know obvious I'm not driven by any of that like it it is an it is

um it is not yeah it is not that um yeah yeah it's weird when you take when you and my wife will sometimes you know she knows that I'm not motivated by that um because I was not motivated by that before we had money um but excuse me yeah no she'll there definitely many times where she'll be like do you really need to jump on another project but she also knows it's it's it's accepting the fact that I do need this like I can't give it up no way dude I can't it's it's it's not possible so I need to find that balance between family and work um and oh my God I'm envious like I I like Tyler all talk to him about you know life life [ __ ] but you know he's a single guy and like there's no

way for him to understand what is going on behind the scenes but oh my God I feel a great deal of envy about the freedom to throw your life into something and live it because I used to do it all the time even though even though I had a wife and then she'd always say you know like the quote in the movie like I only see your back I'd always just be working but she also knows that in order for her to be with a happy person that she can that she loves that I need I need to be refueled by this yep no I I think my wife my wife and I have had very similar conversations we got married really young too um when in fact we I started dating my wife when I was 18 and she was 16 so we met in high school yeah and um from the start I think the reason why she fell in love with me is because she sees an obessive weirdo uh

that has to be fueled by creative cont like being autonomous in creating what I want to create um because what's in here it's like a I've compared it to something like a uh an insect in my brain and it's like crawling around in my head and if I don't get it out into some project it stays there the problem is is that when you do it out and you finally launch it on Steam another one grows yeah have you ever seen Phantom thread no Phantom thread is phenomenal and I'm G to spoil it for you if you don't mind um I'm sure you'd love it because you like Fringe weird films I'm sure I haven't heard a fact that I haven't heard of is this new it's new no no no it's old Phantom thread I'm looking it up here Phantom thread I have a point here but Phantom thread is uh Paul Thomas Anderson is the director and uh it what why don't I know about this movie it's phenomenal and you you're probably going

to relate to it so much because the premise is this seamstress is OBS he's like a tailor and he makes like women's clothes he's obsessed he is obsessed with work and he cannot stop but he falls in love with this woman 2017 I mean this is yeah it's about 10 years old almost um or no I mean it was I I can see now why this was like in the early days of of of of my daughter my oldest daughter so I can see why I might have missed this right you had no time uh so but anyway he falls for this woman the only the only way that the both of them know because he's and he's an [ __ ] so like they fall in love but he treats her terribly because he's a workaholic and so she discovers that the only way to get his attention and his affection is to poison his food and make him bedridden for like a week and then they have a romance while he's sick and so she'll the ending is

sorry to spoil it but the ending is she realizes that this is the only way this is going to work and they accept it and they go okay you're you are a workaholic this is your this is your thing there's no way out of this you're just too freaking creative therefore I'm just going to poison you every month and there's part of me that that that I think my wife wife she knows that I obviously I need to work on and I am continually working on being less involved in my head yeah and I've gotten so much better how old are you now I'm 34 34 yeah you give it a few years you'll brain you'll you'll slow down and I think that's what I was that was about what I was about to say Ed is like it's just something about aging the older you get you just I maybe you care you care less things aren't as serious your projects aren't your baby I mean I don't know about you but I I don't think about my games that way anymore um I do I do do you really I think about them like

flings or like side pieces it's like okay I had fun with you see you later get out of my life like when I launched my games I'm like get out I'm done with you um but it's not that way for you no it feels more like a child yeah and it feels like a tragedy when it when you leave yeah man that said I mean you're talking the guy who's been working on a game that he did release you know 14 years ago and he's still working on it eugenic is from 14 years ago no The Binding of Isaac are you still working on it you're doing we just released we just released a free DLC like a few weeks ago it was online multiplayer that I was involved with yeah golly dude and I still have like the four Soul stuff that I I'm doing well to wrap up here man um can you leave the audience with perhap and it's okay if you don't have one but like a strategy for 2025 like

because like 2024 was difficult and I was hoping to get something from you like advice for Indie developers in 2025 that something they can do to not feel like scared because it it was a weird year I don't know do you have anything yeah um I'll the harsh reality of if you want to be happy doing this you need to learn to live very poor and um be comfortable with that and know that you will survive and you'll figure it out even if you have to take a part-time job or contract work or whatever else needs to happen um you you got to be more realistic about your time and what you're doing and hustle you you you can't be scared to hustle and if hustling

isn't your thing you need to learn it um one of the things that a lot of Indies don't especially people from the mainstream that are moving into Indie development don't realize and I didn't realize looking into mainstream development is how many hats an independent game developer has to wear in order to be become successful somebody in your group probably you um is going to have to be somebody who seeks out press figures out what that means now how do I get my game out there to people somebody in the group needs to figure that [ __ ] out you know and you need to know if that's you uh somebody needs to be the face somebody needs to be the voice somebody needs to be the one and I failed at this to kind of put their foot down and say this isn't working we need to stop you know what I

mean like there's there are so many aspects of game development that have nothing to do with game development um that are needed when you're an independent game developer yeah um you just have to be this major jack of all trades and you need to get as much information as you can about as many things as possible in order to be have a chance at being a success yeah you know or you just roll the dice and you're in the right right time and the right place but not I that that's R that's rare these days well you know I think about all the games on Steam there's you know how many are supposed to be released in 20 25 I think it's something like 20,000 I'm not sure but I mean 80% of those games are are games made by people who I'm just throwing this number out there or I'm making up a random percentage but 80 % I would think are people who don't know how to do what you just said to do to do those all the things and I've work I've

worked with many I I've worked with many people who not only don't know how but absolutely will not they refuse out of principle refuse like I I've I've worked with people and it's a personality type thing too I've worked with people who are like I will absolutely not speak positively about my work because it feels self- serving h and it's just not they can't do it because it feels like they're bragging about themselves I have no [ __ ] it's not G but no that's a personality type and it's not an uncommon one it's there are people who struggle with that or struggle with kind of like they feel like it's boasting or it's you know they're bragging about something and they can't they can't will themselves to do it or they simp simply are scared to speak talk in public or yeah or you're talking about marketing right they're just they refuse to Market I

mean at the end of the day and so you know eight let's say 80% of those games out there not only are 80% of the games kind of trash on Steam but then they don't Market themselves they don't they don't participate in typical business practices like if you want to make money you got to market the thing so I guess my point is that I'm encouraged by what you said which is look you've got to grind you've got to hustle and what what's encouraging about that is only like 10% of the Steam games are going to do that and so everyone's thinking oh there's so many games and everyone's trying to make get the money and it's like yeah kinda I mean it's just like the barrier of Entry is so low on Steam that really you're only competing with 10% of those games yeah you know what I mean if you really hustle yeah I mean I I have a lot of people that come up to me and they're like hey I've got this thing coming out or I'm going to do a Kickstarter for this thing can you give me your opinion on it and the first thing I do is like well show me your social media and they've got no one following

them and I'm like well usually you can just divide your social media following and figure out what you're going to sell can you really oh yeah it's reality like how else is this going to happen like you need you need to build a fan base for the fan base to find you unless you've got a [ __ ] publisher funneling thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars into pushing your game in front people's eyeballs good luck Publishers don't Market anything anymore yeah well I've seen I know I know devolver really doubles down on ones that that sell because I see yeah if it sells I mean yeah that that's that's the shitty thing right but can you the fact usually it's like oh if this thing's already successful then we're gonna invest in advertising I don't I honestly dude I don't even blame them they're running a business they got families and mouths to feed so there's part of me that's just like well of course you're going to double down on your successful games you know so anyway yeah it's it's um it's hard it's

hard it's hard I still would love to believe so this is the reality a majority of people games out there it's not that they suck it's that the bar has been raised the bar has been raised really really really high when it comes to what people will care about and what people care care about is this thing that they don't know exists that's really exciting that everybody's playing that's new so it's when taking a risk it's must it's much better at this point in the game to double down on something that's totally out of the box and weird and different than everything else than something that's just like this other thing correct so don't use Unreal Engine is that what you're saying you can use whatever the [ __ ] you want you can you you can make a a game with game maker and it can be successful yeah you just

need to lean into your weirdness the things that hline Hotline Miami and the original Spelunky were made in game maker yep engine doesn't matter what matters is knowing what your Forte is knowing what makes you spicy and unique batro yeah come on it's a [ __ ] deck of cards he could made he could have made that in real life just drawing on on playing cards you don't need [ __ ] you it doesn't matter what you're working in you just have to have a really interesting idea that is expandable that hasn't been done before that is exciting and draws people in has a spiciness or uniqueness or weirdness to it that isn't being given by anybody else Y and then you then you you bet on that it's easier said than done though isn't it because people like you you dude you your whole life you've been embracing your weirdness yeah my whole life I've had failures correct and so

you just you you have the the natural skill and and you learned it but you have the skill now of knowing like hey that's weird and that's weird about me and I'm gonna use those to make some money and make an awesome game people listening right now dude they I think the key here is though I'd like to believe the key factor there is for me there was no thought of money and there never was ah I got got it I got it the only time I ever really thought about money was when I was working on Super Meat Boy and that was mostly like I probably shouldn't have them [ __ ] because that's an mated game and that's not gonna fly like I can't have Dr fetus take a [ __ ] graphically in this version of the game because that's going to turn people away that's a stupid thing that's I shouldn't do that I I made compromises and I made compromises for for you know fingers crossed that things would go well um but I bet on

something that I really believed in and I thought was really good and seem people seemed to really like when I showed them yeah you're all the dice yep you know you've you you you you are a shining example we'll wrap this up here but I want to just say you're a shining example of Leaning into your messiness and turning it into something beautiful um I think that people listening right now I just want to encourage everyone listening that what you were made fun of in high school for or what your parents thought was awful about you or the things that your brother and sister made fun of you about they could be your color palette to paint with right like these are oh yeah I mean that's once you find your voice you yeah it's I mean I I I I'm a weirdo so I gravitate towards weirdos but it's it's

the weirdos story it's that that are interesting nobody makes a [ __ ] documentary about some random dude who didn't do anything and didn't and just thought and acted like everybody else like it's just you're right there is no documentary I could think of featuring a norm a normal person random how boring is that um yeah yeah no it sucks sucks growing up that way and and and being a a square peg but square peg doesn't fit it just it it it lives outside of it part of it the school system you put all these kids in a big box and then they feel bad about themselves and it's like no you're great they need I can I could talk forever about this like my my my oldest daughter is now homeschooled we're homeschooling next year yeah yeah it's the school system does not work for I'll just I'll say neurod

Divergent brains well I mean here's the thing isn't every brain a little bit neurod dierent like a little at this point yes at this point yes but I can say that uh majority of people are still [ __ ] pretty normal and fit right into there but maybe maybe my devil's advocate here is maybe it's because the school system pressed them into this just frustratingly tight I man there's a lot of people out there no but this is why everybody goes to therapy because they finally can break out of the box and say here are my weird things that I'm all about and they could tell one person I would love to believe that because it makes it easier to be like well I'm just one of a lot of people but the reality is is you're you're incorrect and there are the majority of people out there are just not like you at all and are completely fine with how everything is and the and the things that are inherently wrong with them are usually choices that they made in life I

see I see but I'm I'm mostly talking about creatives and I think we're we're very we're very all similar like I'm talking about creative people and when I talk about the school system and when it comes to creativity I do think that the school system in in the United States completely crushes and stifles creative Creative Kids 1,000% out of the box kids and kids that are trying to abstract children you know Creative Kids it it just does not reward them in any way for anything that they're good at yeah and it just pushes them down and crushes them yeah yeah well I was I was lucky to I was lucky to have parents what's so funny is I I know your upbringing is actually it it's similar in that we grew up in a religious home I grew up religious I'm still religious but my the way my home was I don't know I don't know everything about your home life but the way my home was is actually

we were very conservative religious traditional but but my parents for some reason they were like they love they they loved letting me have my freak flag fly and so when I was making weird grotesque games they were like this is awesome now let's go to church it was so weird they they loved it are you Catholic or are you Catholic or protest Protestant okay I was because it would be easy to say with you're Catholic you know you grew up with graphic imagery all around you at all times so it's totally acceptable well I mean it it Protestant same thing if you read the Old Testament it's just full of it fire fire and brimstone oh yeah oh yeah but it's funny it's funny because like you would think that the way I was raised or the you would think just on paper that like Thomas F finally broke free when he went to college and it's like no my parents they they foresaw that I have three older brothers they foresaw that the their for son Sons were weird and they were like well there's no amount of playing baseball is going to help these

kids but they just sort of let us go and and I really appreciate that about them so um but we were we were we weren't homeschooled we went to public school and somehow we survived even though we all have our anxiety and our depression and our OCD in my family but okay well let's let's wrap this up dude um links in the description for what do you want it's up to you bud uh um I'm on I'm on Twitter which is not called that anymore um Edmund is it Edmund M I don't know I think Edmond I think it's Edmund M I think I'm Edmund M or Edmond McMillan on both Tik Tok and Twitter and those are the only places that I'm actually why does j John did the same thing j Jonathan Blow why is it that you guys don't want people to go to your steam page I'm just Cur it's just a side because I because I am more than one thing on ah that is a huge note to end on man I wish people really you're building a brand in a universe not a game whatever I have a lot of

projects I'm not just this I'm not just mugic but yes if you feel like you want to uh wish list mugic on Steam I'm supposed to say that yeah um saying that does actually matter I I I remember arguing with um Tyler and being like no nobody [ __ ] does that nobody when I'm so annoyed by people saying remember like And subscribe that it's like I I would never even say that but the thing is it does work so it does yes wishlist Eugenics on Steam it does help us it actually does it helps for placement it does help um it's me genic like ug genic but Mew like a cat goes Mew and this is I would say this is this is the weirdest game I wouldn't say it's the edgiest it's the weirdest game you've made it like I would say it is I would say it is the edgiest but people don't realize it don't people don't people don't aren't going to absorb how [ __ ] horrifically horrible

it all is because they're just gonna accept the world they're gonna accept that it's a game they're going to accept it they're goingon to accept kind of like real life huh there there there's you know it's called mug genics for a reason yep okay it's it's a game about breeding cats um it's it's not linear by any means no um it's very very creative and um player has a lot of it's a lot of control in what happens correct um yeah it's it's um it's really really cool I I really like it I think it's um I personally think it's my best work doesn't mean it's going to be the most successful but I firmly believe that it is the best thing that I've ever worked on okay really really Neato I also like to point out that I'm actually darker than this guy in real life I can guarantee it what are you talking about I look very [ __ ] pale I'm a I'm a dark man I'm a dark person it's all

about the lighting the lighting the lighting I can tell you meet me on the street I I'm I am I I'm one one what one4 one4 Mexican I'm a dark person oh you're definitely darker than me in real life yeah I'm dark okay this is terrible this is a ter I look I look pale like an a pale egg it's all about the lighting it's all about the lighting well that's a great note to end on you're tanner than me congratulations I'm happy for you okay uh wish list mics below Ed thank you so much for this this was really really fun dude thanks for taking time no problem all right I'm gonna hit the end recording button here it better have [ __ ] recorded I know we'll see okay hey let's leave some comments below thanking Ed for his time that was really really cool and again just wanted to let you know that you can join that uh 2D Workshop below it's totally free you're going to learn how to make beautiful character art in less than an hour cool thing is is you don't have to

be talented that's the whole point of the workshop it's well it teaches you how to use color and very simple shapes with no talent to make really good 2dr in particular character art for your indie games uh that's it okay anything else that's all love you bye cheers