Goodgis: Switching To Godot, Making A Game For 5 Years While Working A Desk Job | Ep. #054

Imagine working a desk job, having two kids, paying your monthly bills and rent, running a successful YouTube channel on the side, and also making a massive sprawling 2D game in GDAU. It sounds a little stressful, right? But, you know, it also sounds incredibly inspiring. At least it is for me when I heard this story. Meet Mark aka Goodus, a wildly successful YouTuber with over 200,000 subscribers, and he's also creating an impressive game called DoD Drop Dynasty in his spare time. This conversation with Mark was both fascinating and honestly it gave me the kick in the butt that I need to stay focused, work hard, and finish my own game. In this conversation, Mark and I discuss why game devs struggle to finish their games. We also discuss if Kickstarter is still a viable option for indies. We also talk about knowing if your game is actually a good idea to begin with. Building a family while making games, how a spouse can be a gamedev multiplier, why indie games constantly change during development, especially with a small team. Balancing

multiple entrepreneurial ventures, and why GDAU is Mark's engine of choice. And finally, stick around to the end because Mark's going to crack open his pixel art game in GDAU. And honestly, I was so impressed. You don't want to miss this part of the podcast. It's really impressive. But before we dive further into the interview, I want to say a big thank you to this video sponsor, Sentry. Look, if you're working on a game, especially one you plan to release, having a reliable error and crash reporting system is essential. See, Sentry makes this very, very simple by offering realtime crash reporting for actual gameplay across all platforms. They support nearly every language and framework, including Unity, Unreal, GDAU, and custom engines. And they also have console support for PlayStation, Xbox, and Nintendo Switch. Catching and fixing errors during development can greatly optimize your workflow. But Sentry also monitors errors and crashes after your game ships, so you can see exactly what issues your players are

running into. They also recently added user feedback support to Unity, letting you collect feedback directly from your players without them leaving the game. It's very easy to set up with a completely free tier to get started. So whether you're preparing to launch or maybe you want to support an already live game, I definitely recommend you check them out by clicking the link in the description. My view of YouTube and also my view of gamedev has just radically changed since I was in my 20s. I don't know why, but I always viewed it as like this is supposed to be pure and not financially driven. And over the last couple years, I've had to transition into this mindset of like, why why is it so bad to build a business on YouTube and build a business with games?
Yeah.
And I've seen, dude, I've seen some of my friends graduate into like running a full-fledged studio with like 20, 30 people, and meanwhile, I'm still sitting here as a solo dev. And I had a studio with like five people last year, but it

didn't, you know, it just it we had funding issues. So, all that said, I I sometimes I wonder if my the way I think about the way I think about my game is still not mature enough. You know, I need to think about it like like it's a systematic process with a schedule and a budget.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
It's hard. I guess it all comes down to what you're trying to get out of game development cuz I I kind of feel like when I initially started I was like I want to have a big studio and you want to be like Nintendo and then the older you get you realize like why am I trying to break free from the corporate lifestyle
to create that again in my life. So it's like
that's true. I think even if I was like uh hyper successful, never had to work again, I still I think I wouldn't hire more than a person or two. Maybe maybe five at the most. But I don't even think I would I would keep it pretty small because at the end of the day, I think what makes game development fun is like doing it. So

exactly. Exactly.
There there is something there. Uh there are two joys with game development. Number one, creating the game with all the freedom and the passion. That's so much fun.
Yeah.
Number two, making money.
Yeah.
And so those two things are almost sometimes they seem opposed to each other.
Yeah.
Um and finding that balance is is is tough. I wanted to ask you speaking of like making money from games. Tell me about this Kickstarter you did and and first off the emotional side if we could talk about the emotional side of it. Like how did it feel launching a Kickstarter?
It was it was interesting. I went into it not expecting a whole lot because just from what I've seen like I feel like board games always do do better.
Um I feel like Kickstarter is kind of designed for that. The year prior to do drop Drop I did a Kickstarter re-releasing a board game I made with a friend in college and that raised like $40,000. So that did really well.
Oh wow.
And I started to get a feel for like

okay this is what you need to do for a Kickstarter. So, for going into Dopp, I knew it was just going to I was going to be against a headwind because I'm like the art style at at that point wasn't very appealing and I'm like, it's a video game. I'm like, I don't know. So, I I honestly didn't expect a whole lot out of it. And I kind of view viewed it as like, hey, if this if this does well, I this this sounds kind of bad, but I I viewed it as a way is like, hey, is this game commercially viable? That's really what it was. It was like, if people are willing to support this Kickstarter, not only is it going to help development, it's going to make the game better, but it's also going to show me like if it flops, then people really don't have that much interest and I'll move on to something else. So, I I really had like the weirdest perspective going into it. And what I I didn't want was exactly what happened. What I didn't like is barely get funded because like
it just feels like so like did people really want it or just people are really supportive. Either way, people are like

everyone was so incredible.
And you you you leveraged your YouTube channel for it.
Yes. Okay.
Um I made I I think I made like one or two videos. I did it during Steam Nextfest. I did a demo and the Kickstarter.
You did a demo. Where's the demo now?
It's It's no longer there cuz the game is so different. Um, like even like the I took down the trailer of the game because it just is a totally different game. So, yeah, it was a really weird experience. I had I had some friends who made like $100,000 with a Kickstarter or or more money or around the same amount. So, I was very grateful for it. Of course, I think we all secretly hope that someone's going to hand you like a4 million so you're like, "Oh, I can I can work in this whole time." But um
well, let me just let me just tell you that getting a quarter million dollars from somebody is most of the time as someone with experience in this, most of the time that's kind of like golden handcuffs. You you do feel a little bit um like you

owe them something, you know, let's say it's a backer and they they just really want to be nice or it's an investor or it's a publisher. Suddenly, all of a sudden, the moment the money comes in your account, you feel this sense of relief and then all of a sudden a hangover.
It's like, it's like alcohol. I mean, it's like the next morning you're like,
"Oh, no." And you feel like, dude, I'm not kidding.
Ever since I've signed with I've had I've had a rough I've had a rough three years finishing Twisted Tower. It is. And I people are probably tired of hearing me say this, but and 3D Realms has been great, but that pressure of working with a big publisher, I literally have pain in my stomach all day.
And all day and all night, it's always there. And I know for a fact that the moment I launch that game, and I can't say when, but hopefully soon,
I know it's going to go away.
It's going to go away.
Um, there's this stress knowing that you owe somebody something. Investment is a tough thing, you know.

So, I wouldn't say it's a more freeing thing.
No,
it's a different kind of thing, but yeah.
Yeah. I I I don't think I would ever do a Kickstarter again, like outside of like a like a board game or something, getting something physically printed where you need the extra money
uh to just pay for it or whatever. But yeah, because like even when I did my board game Kickstarter and trying to ship out 600 physical copies of something and like and you're you're going to the post office, you're like, how do I do this? It's a hor horrible horrible horrible feeling. Like if I like I'm responsible for this. I don't want to destroy everything that I've done. Um, and I actually have I this unpopular opinion, but a lot of people that do Kickstarters and say they don't turn out well and people like, "Oh, he's a grifter, you know, he's he's trying to steal from us or whatever." I actually have a lot of sympathy for those people doing it cuz I think they just don't know. I don't think I there's people obviously out there to take your money, but there's a lot of people that

are just trying their best and they don't know what they've signed up for. So,
that's a really good perspective, man. I I think you're totally right. Do you remember the video where PewDiePie flicked off the guy who made Bear Simulator?
I I don't.
Okay. So, PewDiePie and PewDiePie's a changed man now. Yeah.
He doesn't do a lot of the stuff he used to do. Like all of us, you know, when we when we you're about to graduate out of your 20s, right? And you're going to become a 30-year-old.
So, once you hit 30, suddenly you're in your perspective starts to change. But anyway, he he uh he played Bear Simulator, this game called Bear Simulator, which I believe it, let's see how much it made. 341% uh funded.
So it raised $100,000. Okay. And then so everyone was excited about Bear Simulator and it came out and PewDiePie played it
and it was just it was rough, you know. You you it was first person controller and you just collect coins or something, you know, but PewDiePie at the end of the video, he he flicked off the developer uh and

was like, "F you." I think he apologized for it later, but the developer ended up saying that he was quitting gamedev and he's done.
Wow.
And you're totally right. I do have, in a weird way, I have a lot of sympathy for this developer. It's FarJ Studios. I have sympathy because I got off a call yesterday with a producer in Hollywood cuz I want to get into film making. So, I'm getting advice from a bunch of producers. And this producer said, "What you need to I told her my budget for the film." And she was like, "What you need to do is you need to hire someone to write the budget for you." They call it I think they call it a line producer.
Okay?
You hire someone to go in and write a budget for you. And she she was like, "Cuz you don't know."
That's true.
And the same is true with with GameDev. Why is gamedev any different?
RJ Studios doesn't know what $100,000 can get you,
right? Yeah.
And so he probably was panicked. He's like, I can't make a bear simulator

game. But he figured it out four months after he did the Kickstarter, you know.
Yeah.
So, do you feel like you're going to be able to accomplish your your goal um with with the funding that you got?
Yeah. I think um this is a terrible motto to have. Well, and it's not a terrible motto, but I always try to underpromise everything I do.
I think it's great, dude. And I think I think that's why the game is taking longer to release because obviously I want it worth, you know, want to make sure it's worth the wait. But I think it does keep me up at night thinking about it. It's like, oh, you know, are they are people going to be disappointed? They it's I honestly I feel bad more bad about the wait than the money if that makes sense. Like
Yes. No, absolutely.
Because people waiting this long, it's like that means it has to be the best game ever, you know? And there's been so many comparisons to Hollow Knight and stuff like that, which is absolutely ridiculous. And I know like I think Silkong came out today and everything and everyone's so hyped and excited, but it's like I'm like that is such an unfair comparison to make because it's like it's they really struck gold and

you can't expect to strike gold as well. But I I I will say I'm confident that people will enjoy it and like find it fun. So that's and that's all that matters.
Would you say you have This is going to sound like a really random question. Would you say that you have a very sensitive moral compass?
Uh,
meaning meaning you
you have a high level of integrity. You don't like to you don't like to lie about things or or or or like white lie about things.
Yeah. I'm very very blunt and honest.
Yes. And when you say things keep you up at night, for me, I'll just say for me, the things that keep me up tonight at at tonight, they will, but the things that keep me up at night are integrity stuff. So like if people think I'm a liar or if people think I'm a grifter or if people think I copied something, that stuff is the most painful stuff. That's the stuff that keeps me up.
Yeah. And so, you know, the two places that that's the if you're that kind of

person, the two worst places for you to be is YouTube and Kickstarter. Um, and I've done both of those, you know, and and I so I definitely know the feeling of like, man, I hope I can deliver what I'm promising. Do you have confidence in yourself as a game developer, though?
Yeah, I feel like I I went through a season where I I totally lost it. I feel like last year, the year before, I I was just really overwhelmed and I kind of lost that sense of like I don't think I can do this. And so I started to like do a bunch of research and then eventually I realized the lie that I guess I was believing about myself is that intuitively I didn't understand what made a fun game. But I'm like that's I'm like we know what a fun game is. Like it's not like and there's some games like your bias you have a bias towards it. So it's it's hard to see the big picture. But one thing that I've I've been blessed with my entire life is self-awareness. And I'm that type of person I'll make something. And unless I'm satisfied,

like I feel like I I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel like my standards are incredibly high.
Yeah.
And as long as I follow my standards, I know that to to some level my games will be successful. And so I' I've gotten away from doubting myself and I'm just like, I'm going to do this. This seems fun. And I'm kind of getting back to the root of game development. I'm like, if it's fun for me, then there's got to be at least a thousand people or more who agree that it's fun for them.
Yes.
Um, and that's what I did for I always I keep going back to this cuz it's like my only commercial product that I've released so far, but I did that for my board game, The Keep.
The Keep. I'm going to look it up here.
Yeah. Here's here's a little copy of it here.
Oh, you had it ready to roll. That's cool, dude. Can we see inside of it?
Yeah. So, um, made this with a a buddy in college and I literally went into it trying to design it. Uh, I'm like, I don't like board games, so I'm going to make a board game that is actually cool. And because I went in with that

perspective, I, you know, you think like, well, if you want to, if you want to make board games, you got to you got to know everything about board games. I didn't I didn't, like, I've played board games and stuff like that, but I'm like, I'm just gonna make something I want to make. And because of that, it's sold so well. Like even now like we
it's honestly
obviously with everything going on with Terrace 2 it doesn't make it easy but it's it's so hard to sell physical copies of games but literally we cannot keep them in stock. So it's like the weirdest things like you have a product that everyone wants to buy and the game is really fun but we can't like it's not commercially viable because it's so expensive to buy these things and it's expensive for people to get them. So, what we've done is we've been selling a PDF of it, and I we've gotten like like hundreds of people have bought this PDF to print out this game and play it themselves. But, it's a uh it's a rogike card game. So, the whole whole idea is that you have these like different characters that you play as.
Can you put that closer to the camera for me? I want to see it.
You have these different characters you play as.
Oh, yes. Dude, you're such a graphic designer. you I though everything about

you it to me screams this guy is a control freak about aesthetic and margins and padding and pixel size and fonts and color. Am I wrong?
No, you're right. I there's a little bit of wiggle room. I try not to be too like crazy about it, but yeah. And especially color. I feel like color is my that's one of my favorite things. But
me too. I love I love me some color. And for some reason, this is a complete side note. I'm looking at how I I try and control the color of my studio. I keep wearing this camo hat and I'm like, this does not match at all.
I like it though. I think
I think it's a nice little like weird It's like a weird little flare. But I I I like camo lately. Um but dude, that's awesome about your board game. Is your wife proud of you?
She is. She's like
That's me. That's my first thought because I always try to impress my wife uh with with creative stuff. So,
it's funny. My wife is uh so loving and supportive, but like I'll do something

that's crazy. I'm like, "I can't believe I figured this out." And she's like, "Yeah, I knew you could do that."
Exactly. My wife's the same way.
I need you to be like,
"Wow, I can't believe you did it either." She's like, "No, I I never doubted you."
Well, there's a I totally I totally understand what you're saying. I um I think every time I'm making a game, I'm like, "I'm going to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in this game." or when when I was not spending my own money on it and I was like just spending time on it as a hobby, I'd always tell my wife like, "We're not gonna make any money off this. We're gonna make no money." And she she would just ignore it. She's she didn't even like hear me saying it. And then when when the game comes out and it's making money, I'm like, "Aren't you surprised it's making money?" And she's like, "No, I know. I knew you were going to make money." So, it's an amazing thing to have a spouse that
has well, like you were saying about standards.
Yeah.
Has really high standards for you because she knows you, you know, she she knows like, of course, he's going to make money on this thing and of course he's going to be successful in this one little venture because her view of you

is high, you know?
It is great. Do you ever have family members that their view of you is like way too high? They're like, "How many subscribers you have on YouTube? Like five million." You're like, "No, no, no, no."
It's like, "I thought you do that full time." Like, "No, no, no." Yeah, I do. I do. And um but I also know what it's like to have family members who are at bare minimum, they're just very confused.
Um and friends as well. Like they'll say, I had one friend, he found out, he hadn't met me yet, and he found out that I made games. And he told me after the fact, he was like, "Honestly, dude, I was kind of embarrassed about you because I I He thought that I was like some 35-year-old in his parents' basement like making video games, you know? He didn't see it as like, oh, this is actually a job." And the same is true with YouTube. It's like, no, you it's actually like money, you know? Money comes in and it's a business. But I I my my wife has always been incredibly supportive. I wanted to ask you a quick

question though about what you said earlier. Um, what what did you say? You were talking about the board game. Oh, you were talking about how just because you don't know like the idiosyncrasies of what makes a good game doesn't mean that you're not going to make a good game.
Yeah.
Do you remember saying that?
Yeah.
Something like that. What do you think that comes down to? Is that taste? You just have, you know, that your taste is good and that you're not going to let yourself release something if you know it tastes bad or if you know that it is bad.
I I don't know. That's that's a
cuz like not everybody can do that. Not everybody can
detect that the game isn't working.
I I think this is something I saw a lot in art school where like there's some people that were aware that their what they put up there wasn't perfect and there's other people like when we would we'd hang up our artwork to be critiqued. One guy, one of our teachers used to have a box cutter. It was crazy. But no joke, but when we hang up our our stuff, there's some people that were just so confident and I'm like, how are

you confident? I'm like, it's not you shouldn't be confident about that. And they they couldn't see the problems. And there's other people that just be like, oh, you know, this is great, but I wish I could fix or improve that or, you know, whatever. So, I don't know if it's like it's just like a musical thing or it's like being able to hear, not being tonedeaf. Yeah. It's almost like not being tonedeaf to uh creating something because ultimately if if you were to play the game and it wasn't your game, would you enjoy it? Would you would you like the art style? Do you think the art style is like uh you know like I think a lot of times we like to flatter ourselves and think that our art is like the best.
But like even when I work on art for do drop now I'm always looking at other games and I'm like well people are going to directly compare to these games and is it does it stand out? Do are people going to like it? Like do I like it over these games? You know am I proud of the artwork versus what these these games are doing? And if the answer is no, then I need to it's, you know, and sometimes

you can't always go back and fix it. Sometimes you have to be like, well, this game is going to take me 20 years if I do that, you know. But I think that's it just comes down to training your eye.
And like we know like when you sit down and play a game, whether you're a game critic or not, whether you're a game developer, if you're bored in five minutes, you're bored, you know? But if you're enjoying it, I think the main thing is to dig deep and like, why am I enjoying this game?
That's a really good point. Have you ever played your game with someone else watching you play it or had someone and and all of a sudden your perception changes?
Yeah, normally it's like you're even more critical. You're like, "Oh yeah, it's like
that's a I I that's a great way actually. Normally what we do so when I'm working on do drop uh my so I have two other people that help me. So my brother who's also my editor uh he he helps with level design. he helps like just a bunch of like little repetitive tasks he helps with during the game development process. And then uh my college friend uh Bonso, he has been

making some like extra tracks for the the game and also he's a
Yes.
Okay.
Um and he also does like concept art and he's like he he loves really technical fighting games and all this stuff. So and my brother likes Roller Coaster Tycoon. So it's like just a a mix of people, you know. Is your brother older than you or younger than you?
He's older. Yeah, he's
five years you said.
Uh, he's three years older than
three years. Okay. So, I'm I think I might be older than your brother even.
Yeah. Roller Coaster Tycoon was my childhood. Um, and I'm sure it was for you as well to some degree, right? Um,
it's incredible game, but uh, keep keep going.
So, yeah. Yeah. So, what I'll do every once in a while, I'll I'll have them over and then we'll just we'll play the game on the Steam Deck just to get like the the full experience. And that's when like all the flaws, all the cracks come out cuz you're all playing it together and you're getting bored and you're like you we pass the controller, we just take turns cuz the game's getting long enough that it's like I'm sick of playing it.

I'm like, let's like someone else play it please. Uh and doing that I think is really helpful. So, I I I think if you're not sure if your game is good or not, it's good to have other people play it.
Yeah.
And actually though, I don't know about you, but it makes me stress cuz I'm like, I got to fix this.
Of course it does. Of course it does. Who was I talking to? I was talking to um I was talking to Tom Francis and in the previous podcast that I just uploaded and we were talking about beta testing and he was saying how it's some of the hardest days of his life are are beta testing and just alpha testing. It's it's worse for me. It's worse than launch because you just you get way way many more bugs during a beta test than a launch.
Um,
and so I always get really sick. Um, like my stomach always hurts when I'm stressed. And so it's like particularly bad during the beta testing and alpha testing. But yeah, I'll have my brothers play my games and like my I have three older brothers and we we grew up playing Roller Coaster Tycoon and stuff

together, but they'll play Twisted Tower and Yeah. It's wild how all the sudden the game looks completely different because in a way I'm kind of looking at it through their eyes.
Yeah. You know, and this is just a great way to build your your taste to grow that pallet is to taste food or taste your game through another person's senses.
Yeah.
So, I wanted to ask you because I think this is valuable for a lot of people listening. It's not every day that everybody gets to hear a game developer who is not and no offense to anybody or whatever, but like who is not single or doesn't have kids or, you know, a mortgage or or paying rent or whatever. And so I wanted to ask you, does being does being a husband and being a father, a family man, does that help you as a game developer, as a YouTuber, or does it hurt you?
I feel like it does both. It's like I

feel like I'm a healthier person because I don't know if you used to do this or still do this, but before well definitely before I was married and definitely before I had kids, I I could work like 12 hours, you know, especially like when the first couple years my wife and I were married, I could work for hours cuz we we saw each other all the time.
Um you know, I work from home so it's not like I you know, she's not around. So, we'd see each other so much that I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to work later and later and later." And it's great, but at the same time, I was like mentally super unhealthy because you just start to get weird and like, "Man, if you're too creative for too long, you'll just go nuts. You got to like you got to talk to real people. Talk about football or something."
I don't know how to do that, by the way. I have no idea how to do that.
Um, but you have to get away. you got to talk with like I I be like feel like being in a community is really healthy. So, um so having kids is great because it's it it makes me I have my time to

work and then when it's done it's done and I don't think about work afterwards because I have the kids. It was rough for a time period because I didn't have a separate space. So I'd be working on something and then you know the girls would run in and like ask for something. I'm like uh no or they like what are you doing? Can I do that? work.
Yeah. You you you forgot to deadbolt your office door. Dude,
my previous office didn't have a door. So, it was like connected. It was like a room connected to our living room.
I see.
So, we used to put up a gate, but then they would just stand at the gate and watch me, which And then you feel guilty. That's adorable.
The worst thing was the guilt. You just feel guilty cuz you're like, would I rather spend time
with my wonderful child
or work on a game? And it's like, I don't want to have to pick. I want to
I don't think you should feel just side note I and I think you know this you shouldn't feel guilty because you've got to you got to bring in income for the family and um
that I mean I grew up my my dad was you know 8 to 6 o'lock every day you know or

6:30 in the morning to 6:00 p.m. I have a great I have a great relationship with my dad and um I that was just as long as there was a a rhythm that my kids or that that I could expect from my dad.
Yeah,
that was I think the most valuable thing, a rhythm. I knew he was coming home at 6:30. I knew he'd check the mail at the counter for for 20 minutes. I knew he was going to turn on the news and I knew I was going to get to sit next to him and talk to him while he watched the news. Right? It was always the same. And then he'd walk me to bed, we'd pray, and then it was the same thing over and over and over and over again until now. Um, he still rocks me to sleep. I'm just kidding. But but that but that rhythm was really helpful and I totally understand what you're saying about before you have kids, dude. I had no rhythm. It was like whenever, you know, I'd work whenever.
Yeah.
So I I think that that was kind of a an unhealthy unhealthy way to be. So, what

about um being married? Does being married help you as an artist, as a YouTuber?
I I mean, I think so. I I think it just has different different challenges. I think it adds a lot, but also like I I remember some of the unhealthiest time in my marriage is when I was working a bunch on a game. So, I'm like, well, and my wife was working a lot, so we just didn't see each other. Yeah.
It was like the first year or two was a little rocky. Um, and so we're like, we made a change, you know,
and
so I think is it just all depends on you as a person, but I think in general having someone like hands down, um, having someone who's got your back 24/7 is it's amazing. It's worth it. And there's a lot of people like, I don't want to get married. I don't want to have kids because it's like it's so much work. I'm like I'm like like Yeah, but the work is like 10% of it and like the love is 90% of it. Like you get you get so much out of it even though you put a lot into it.
Yeah.
And I think um this kind of goes into

Ready? I'm going to tie this into why people don't stick with their projects is I feel like we we're in a society nowadays where it's like we just want to do stuff when it's comfortable for us. We don't want to be uncomfortable. We feel like it's a bad thing. That's a sign. It's a sign that I should stop working on this because it's hard and I don't want to do it anymore. But once you have kids, you realize like, oh, life's hard and I'm a better person. I'm more disciplined. I'm a healthier person. I'm less selfish. And I've actually noticed my motivation for do drop, for YouTube, for all my projects. I've become more responsible. I I view it less as a responsibility and more of like a privilege. And even if I don't love it every day, it's like it's okay. It's like I don't have to love it. It's just so I feel like it makes you a more well-rounded person being being married and having kids if you can and if you choose to.
Yeah.
Um but yeah,
that's so interesting what you said.

It's um it's kind of like in America, uh western culture, it's like everybody expects every meal to be a feast.
Yeah.
And I do too. like I I the idea of of of eating a meal that isn't fully satisfying is difficult for me. I think that's true in general with everything. It's uh even with your job, with your marriage, with your kids, if it's not exactly what our body wants, we get we we you're like you said, we think it's a sign that we should stop.
Yeah. And with Do were there any moments where similar to marriage where you you're fighting with it and you're like, I think we need to split up. I I don't think this is going to work.
There were several moments actually.
Several key moments. One was before the the Kickstarter. I remember um I was going to stop the project then cuz I felt like if I stopped at that point, I could start a new project that had cuz I

had learned so much. I'm like, I could start a new project that I knew would do well and take less time, but I'm like, I don't know. I or I thought I could just keep doing YouTube, but you know, weirdly enough, I it was I watched one of your videos at the time and your in your video, I can't remember, is this this a long time ago? This is like four four years ago, three years ago, and you were saying like, do you want to be a game developer? Do you want to be a YouTuber? Like, what do you want to be? And and you were talking about like how you have to finish a game to have a finished game. and you're going to the reward, the accomplishment, the sense of completion afterwards is so fulfilling. And I remember watching that and my brother also saying that like think about it. He's like, if you finish this, even if it doesn't even if it does nothing, even even if no one cares about it, whatever, still the sense of accomplishment of that you made this from start to finish.
Yeah.
And so I was like, you're right. Because up until that point, I I wasn't committed. It was kind of like I was dating the game, but I didn't want to commit to it. And and then even after

the Kickstarter, you know, I I I kind of committed myself, but then I kind of was struggling. And then eventually
it was I think two years ago, I was like, it's this. I had a sign up on my wall. It says, "Do drop dynasty or bust." And which is like terrible business advice, but I'm like,
I need to finish this.
I'm gonna I'm gonna marry this game even if it's it can be abusive relationship sometimes. I'm gonna finish it. Um and then I'm going to move on. Yeah.
It's like because if I don't finish this game, it's like you start to get picky and then you start dating you start dating another game and it's like oh that the game doesn't have this and I want this my ideal game and then it's like you're never satisfied and no game like at the end of the day making a game it's work you know and most of the work is fun some of it's not and if you just give up and you know my my grandfather he was a World War II um vet he was a communication officer and he always used to that anything in this world that has

value has a cost to it, has a price to it. So, you have to you have to work hard for it, even if it hurts. And I don't, weirdly enough, my parents have always said this, people around me have always said this, but when it came to gamedev, it never clicked until
like two years back. I'm like, what am I doing? I'm like, I have to commit.
Um, and there's always fears like, did you commit to the right thing? Did you is this going to hurt you in the long run? It doesn't matter. You just have to see it through otherwise you're just going to never finish anything. And that's I feel like is worse. So
I love what you said there, man. And I think that this this mindset only really works if gamedev is a long-term goal again like marriage. It doesn't make sense if it's like well I only want to I want to try it or I want to do it for a couple years. But if it's like no like this is what I'm going to do like this is my thing and I'm going to do it for a long time. It makes way more sense. Do drop. It's looking great though, man. Like I don't think I don't think it's a waste of your time at all. Now I am curious. Can we talk can we shift gears and talk about the changes you've made to this game?

Yeah.
Um so and and also kind of the emotions behind it. You you started with a very simplistic art style, correct?
Yes.
And then you've changed it significantly. Can we talk about those changes?
Yeah. So starting out it was kind of like MS DOS uh kind of style. It was inspired by a sock pop game called Bobo Robot. No one's ever heard of it. It's so small. But it was kind of like it kind of if you look at uh screenshots of it, you you'll see like the the chunky simple pixel art.
Um it started out kind of like that.
Bro, this looks so good. Sock Pop, they they seem to have a really good understanding of graphic design as well. Like you um even their art style looks like graphic design. So it's really really pretty. Keep keep going. Sorry.
Yeah. Super aesthetic. And that's actually the scope of that game was what I was going to do or do a drop. So, I was going to make like a a $3 game and it was just going to be really tiny cuz that game you can play through it in like half an hour.
Wow.
So, the the early screenshots and footage of Drop looks like that.
Mhm.
And I I I made another interesting

choice starting out is instead of the camera following you like a typical like Hollow Night or typical Metroid Vania, I made it like Zelda almost where like you go into a room and then your camera's fixed to that room. Like some rooms would be bigger and it would follow you, but then you go to another room and then it would like slide over. Super strange. Um it it worked with the small scale of what like like I said what the game was originally. But I think one thing I didn't do when before I jumped into the the Metroid vania genre is I never I hadn't like played any Metroid vanas actually. I don't like Castlevania and I don't like Metroid. So it's like like I I but I love platformers. So I was like well it's like a platformer. So really this whole time I've been making it, I've been calling it a 2D or plat a 2D platformer Zelda is what I call it. Uh which is Metroid Vania, but
right which as you know that was Zelda 2, right? Zelda 2,
which was trash.

So it's hilarious that you chose the worst Zelda to mimic. Uh
so it was it was like I I was thinking like Ocarine of Time like what if you had all the mechanics, the dungeons and things like that. Actually, at one point there were going to be dungeons in the game and who knows, maybe that's something they'll go later on. But so it started out, yeah, the it just the the scope of it was really small and so um eventually it was right after the Kickstarter. Uh like even the artwork, the background was just black and it just had like some like basic static stuff in the background, but it just like it didn't look very appealing. Um, and for marketing purposes, I I feel like I shot myself in the foot cuz Do is a very hard game to market because the screenshots are really like it's really hard to show the movement. The game the movement is so dynamic and the movement feels great, but it's really hard to show in the screenshots. That's that's why I haven't updated it in like two years. I haven't added new screenshots. Um, we're in the process of doing that

now. But yeah, so I I went back. I made a free roaming camera. I zoomed out the camera more. I'm like, we need more space to be able to traverse uh the world. So, I basically like after the Kickstarter and everyone played the demo, I'm like, this is great. I basically I didn't restart the game, but I kind of did cuz I I had to move uh migrate from GDAU 3 to GDO4. So, I had to actually recode everything. And then I decided I'm like, this is my chance. And so I I did a more zoomed out approach, uh a more detailed art style, took more influence on Paper Mario, and um I feel like from there it just kind of evolved really. Paper Mario is probably the biggest influence I've I've tried to take from like a pixel art paper Mario. So
I think you and I had the same childhood, man.
Uh like are you in Ohio? You said okay.
Uh I feel like I don't know similar cultures. Um, I'm in South Carolina, so the Carolinas are probably similar in culture. I mean,
a lot of people it feels like from Ohio go to the Carolinas and vice

noticed that a lot.
Maybe they don't go up Carolina.
Might be a little too cold.
Uh, cold for us, you know, we're sweating all the time basically. Um,
but yeah, like I say that because my games are It's so funny you say that about Metroid vanias. The concept and the idea of a Metroid vania is so exciting to me.
Yeah. yet I won't play one, you know, I won't play it because I I don't have the patience. Hollow Knight is the greatest inspiration. Probably that and Zelda are like two of my greatest inspirations. Yet, I will not beat Hollow Night. I won't I won't do it. I I'll play for an hour. And do you know what? I enjoy cutting the grass,
listening to the music,
the art style. That's that's what I love. And so what I realized, I was doing, this happened to me with Once Upon a Com, which we renamed to Never Song, was I told my publisher, Serenity Forge, I was like, "This was supposed to be a Metroid Vania, but we're going to call it a Metroid Vania light." And then what I realized is this is Zelda.

You have a hub and you have your five places you got to go,
the five worlds. You get a new ability that takes you to the new world, to the new world, to the new world. And there's puzzles inside the world. Yeah,
that's basically it, you know, or at least Ocarine of Time, not Breath of the Wild is completely different platform.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's this feeling of like realizing halfway through the game, this development that you're like, oh, I didn't I don't think I knew what I was making uh or what I wanted to make, you know?
It's I I looking back, I would have I would have spent way more time prototyping. I also like and you'll you'll see this with my next game is I'm gonna make a game that immediately you get feedback on the gameplay loop because like in Metroid Vania it takes years because you have to make all the areas and it's a chicken and egg situations. It's like you got to design the areas but you got to have the puzzles for the areas but you got to have the theming and then like where the bosses and then you got to get this item to get there. So, it's like it's it's such a complicated game to try to work out all the details and then you don't

even know if it's fun, you know? It's like and then once you start adding something, like that's the scary part. It's like
it it takes years and years and years and then it's finally starts to get fun. And also, if you're a person making it and you know all the puzzles and you know where everything's at, then it's really it's like, is it fun? Because
is how hard is this? Because you don't know. you know where everything's at.
That's so true, man. Half the fun of a game is discovery.
Yeah.
And that explor explorative feeling,
especially Metroid vanas. That's like like that's I would say like 80% of what makes a Metroid vania. And you don't have that when you're working on it. So
tell me about um YouTube and and um gamedev. And are you a freelancer? So I work full-time for a Fortune50 company or Fortune 100 company as a graphic designer. So I'm in their marketing, but I I work from home. So I have a lot of flexibility.
I see. So you've you're you've got a

baby in one hand, you've got GDAU in the other, you've got a job on your head, you've got a wife on your knee, I guess that sounds weird. You've got and then YouTube on the other knee. And it's like
and then your other daughter on your shoulders. You're carrying so much, dude. You're carrying more than me. Um, because I get to do this full-time, you know, YouTube and and making games. Tell me about this. Like, number one, why? Number two, how?
Yeah. I mean the why is uh I whenever I fully transition to like full-time development YouTube I just want to make sure that we are secure you know we have health insurance all these things like especially with kids you want to make sure that they have a um and my wife doesn't work so

she's a stay-home mom so I um we've really been just been taking this time where it's worked to work full-time while doing all and has great benefits. Pay off student loans. Those are terrible. Been working through those.
Y
um and so for me, yeah, it just making I' I'm always a I'm a calculated risk kind of guy because I think if I were to just jump there's I definitely could do full-time YouTube now, but it would be stressful. it would be stressful for me because I feel like I'd be I'd be so caught up in the performance that it would be worse long term. So I I'm I I kind of view as big picture. I feel like um I'm going to obviously keep doing YouTube, keep doing what I'm doing, but I'm thinking big picture of trying to make a game and it may not be Do. I like with everything I've said today about like knowing if games are good or not. Like do drop Drop could totally flop. Who knows? Or it could do amazing. But eventually a game will take off and

that'll be the the foundation for me to to to do it full-time.
So, you're doing YouTube because you want to do YouTube full-time?
Uh I I'm doing YouTube because I started doing YouTube and I think it's a great way it's a great way to connect with people to market. It does make uh makes money which is fantastic. It has the potential to be something even more. But really to be a game developer is what I want I want want to do and I want YouTube to just be like the secondary thing long term. That makes sense.
Well, I will say this as an encouragement to you. The the algorithm shows you favor. Your channel in particular, like you get you're getting really good views, man. Um
I appreciate it.
You have 200 some thousand subscribers. Subscribers don't really matter. Um
that's what I found. But the algorithm is I'm grateful for the algorithm and what it's done for my channel, but it doesn't promote my stuff like yours. And let me just say this as a caveat or as a clarification. Your content is why the algorithm is

showing you favor. So it's not just luck. Your content is so well uh directed. It's directed at a certain group of people and you always release basically the same quality of content at that target. You do that really really well with with high precision. So, I just wanted to applaud you there and say like, yeah, you do have something special and this channel could easily easily I don't know if it already is, but it could easily be six figures a year. Easy.
Do you mind sharing monetary uh opportunities for YouTubers? Like what what are the opportunities available to you?
Are you saying in general or just
Well, for for like what's your experience? What what brings in money for YouTube?
Yeah. So like ad revenue um obviously I mean you're aware of this too. It doesn't bring a whole lot. It's nice. It pays for my accountant every month. So like
that's and some extra depending on if it's a good month. I think sponsorships are really uh where I make the most

money. That helps pay for pay my brother for editing and pay for the studio. Um and so I've had a wonderful relationship with Brilliant for like the last two years. they just like
I saw that
they just and I they're they're so amazing to work with that I don't I really haven't worked with anyone else. I get offers all the time, but part of it is um I'm trying to do one video a month just so I have as much free time as humanly possible going back to juggling everything. Uh I want to have as much free time as possible working on on do drop. Um, so to your point, I I feel like if I did videos more often, the channel could grow and be I think it could it would grow even faster and it would be potentially make a lot of money.
Yeah.
But because I got this game I got to finish. It's this it's my baby, but it's not my baby. This responsibility has um I actually kind of view it as debt in a

weird sort of way. like I have debt.
1,000%, dude.
Dude, absolutely. That's true.
It's I feel like I just can't move on to the next phase of doing whatever, whether that's just making videos or making more games until it's over. So, yeah. So, I think sponsorships are a great way. I did Patreon for a while, but I just couldn't keep up with it.
Yeah, me too.
You really have to give something great um to make it worthwhile.
Um and I just I I couldn't really offer that. I've thought about doing courses. Once again, I just don't have the time to do it. I um I thought about doing a GDAU course. So, there's there's ways that I could monetize it and go full-time, but like I said, I just don't have the time to do it. I actually I have a friend of mine, he gets so upset because he's like, "Dude," he's like, "You could be like so big and do all this stuff." He's like, "Yeah, like delegate. You got to do this stuff." I'm like, "Yeah, but I'm like, I got a system and it's working."
Yeah. And I don't want to like I sure I could hire people and delegate and do

all this stuff, but like
I don't want to lose sight of ultimately I don't want to turn YouTube just into a cash cow, you know? It's like ultimately
I love the people that I'm interacting with. I love the community. It's really inspired me and I just want to, you know, give back to that community. So
that's a really good approach and and admittedly, you know, I've lo I've definitely lost sight of that many times. Um, especially when I'm I'm I think I had a payroll of $20,000 a month last year for my team and I was I was needing to do YouTube as well to help pay that payroll to finish this game.
Yeah.
And I couldn't afford it. I eventually stopped doing it and had to wrap up the the different um contracts for all the different uh contractors. Point being though, when when things are tight and like you said, you've got this huge debt of this game on your shoulders,

sometimes you sometimes it feels like you can forget why you do YouTube, you know, and it purely becomes, like you said, a cash cow and it sure it certainly can. It can bring in a lot of money. YouTube's incredible. I also understand, Mark, what you were saying about it being dead. um a game being uh my my wife calls it the monkey on my back. It is this bottleneck that until I'm done with this stupid game, I cannot move forward. I'm I like Twisted Tower has been on my back for three years. I think it'll be four years by the time it's done. And I kind of hate it. I love it and I hate it. I hate it and I hate what it's done to me. I have three gray hairs now. Uh and a a pain in my side side that is apparently nothing. I've gone to the doctor about it. But I I say all that because it is this thing that blocks you from moving to the next chapter of your life.
It is.
And I think you're right in thinking that way because I wouldn't want you

personally I wouldn't recommend I've had other friends who have YouTube channels who are like I want to sell courses, Thomas. And I'm like
until you've released a game, please don't. Yeah.
Because there's something
there's something grifty about selling courses to begin with. Believe me, I have a whole Reddit post about me. I'm a grifter or whatever, a snake oil salesman, but at least I have uh I'm on my third commercial release, you know, and I've worked with three publishers and I know how to make games and sell them. It's important to be really really careful and to get this game done. And so this is my encouragement to you is like get the game done,
show the process, show that you know what you're talking about, and then maybe one day
you have that credibility, you know? Um, and mine is not A+. I mean, I've never made a viral game before.
I have a ton to learn. And frankly,
sometimes I feel like I don't even know what I'm talking about.
That's what I I used to make a lot more

videos on gamedev advice and I've really gotten away with that or Yeah. just doing gotten away from it. Yeah.
Gotten away from it. Yeah.
You got away with it.
Got away with it.
Yeah. You're such a snake oil salesman
because it just Yeah. It felt like and I I'm We both even if you haven't finished a game, there's valuable lessons that especially for beginners that you know, things that you can pick up and learn. But I also realized I'm like, you know what, I just need to cool it because let's wait until I I have some success and then I can talk about it and then I can share what I did. So that my my even like my videos changed quite a bit because I felt that way of just like I just want to make sure you're given the right information, you know, or because you don't want to mislead people. And I think if you're open about it like, hey, this is my opinion. This could be wrong. And that's that's fine. But yeah, I think that's wise.
I think that's wise. I think that's aging into a new it's like have when you have kids and you start to enter your 30s, you just start to get wiser. I that's why I started doing this podcast because I was like I don't know if I

fully trust myself.
Yeah.
To be doing top 10 ways to make a great game videos.
Yeah.
Uh I just released a video yesterday about story, how to how to tell a really good story. And I I felt qualified to do that because I've been doing that for half my life, making story games. Um, but yeah, there's this there's this sense the older I get, which is, man, is there a is there a a framework for for making games?
Like really, because it is such it is so dependent on the person who's making it.
My process, I was just talking to uh his name is Kyle Balda. Kyle is the director of Minions and also Despicable Me 3.
Okay. And I said, "My process for making games is probably so different than, let's say, Illumination because Illumination, they've got a budget, they've got a team, they've got a schedule, they've got all these this this process and system." And I said, "For me as a game developer,

it's chaotic and I'm sort of discovering the game and I'm re I'm breaking it and then recreating it and breaking it, recreating it."
And I said, "I feel guilty about that." And he was like, "Nope, that's that's creativity. you know, wherever you are, you're you're always going to be a little chaotic. Um, and you're never really going to know the exact way for your for your product to be made. Yeah. Well, speaking of chaos, uh, Unity is a, in my opinion, a chaotic mess of an engine, and GDAU is wildly lightweight and clean and beautiful. And I love and hate GDAU because I I love it in the sense that it's amazing. I hate it because I don't want to learn it. and I envy people who know GDAU. So, can you give me really quick um why you use GDAU and then we'll open up your project in GDO?
Yeah. So, I was looking for an engine. I I've tried Unity several times and I just I could not understand it. It just felt so bloated and confusing and I'm

like I don't know. I just it just felt like a dumpster fire when I used it. I just exactly what it is and I've been using it for 15 years.
Things would just break and I'm like why is this broken? And um so a friend of mine who was a developer he told me he's like hey you should check out this thing called GDAU and I tried it out and I hated it. I was like I don't understand this. I I came from Game Maker and so I just stopped using it. And then what I did is I I learned a little bit more computer science because turns out you actually need to code properly. like GameMaker. I know GML uses like a form of C or C or or what whatnot or C++ but it's it's really weird like the way it all works. I had never used something like a Unity or a GDO where you just have a page and you just script you know.
Y
so eventually I tried it out again and it was really confusing especially nodes like the way linking nodes works is just so odd. It's so bizarre. Uh like starting out, but I just kept forcing myself to use it because I I was like,

I'm not paying money for software. Like I refused to. And then I kind of became a GDAU evangelist. Like a lot of my early videos, I was just like preaching GDAU. I was I feel like there weren't a whole lot of people at that time just preaching it as much and and dunking on Unity. I've gotten away from that now because I feel like my work is done. And I feel like so many people talk about GDAU and don't like Unity. And I I still think the reason I even started preaching it in the first place because I would get comments from these kids. They're like, "Well, if I want to make a game, I got to use Unity." I'm like, "No, you don't." That that that was what I was trying to break. Um or like you don't have to spend money to do this if you don't want to. So any So yeah, I I switched over. It it took a while and I think I've been using it for 5 years now and now it's like I don't like the first couple years it was like oh good versus unity. Now I don't even I just click it and I forget what it is. I just it's just like software. It's like invisible to me now.
Yeah.
Um
well it's funny that you mentioned that you were preaching it cuz I I have been

saying for the last two years the one thing Oh man we're going to get some comments what I'm about to say. The one thing that bugs me about GDAU, people treat it like it's a religion. It's a c. Okay, it's not a cult. Sometimes it feels like it's a cult. And I think this is just open source in general, you know. Um, and look, you know, GDO folks, they have the right to be proud of it and and to preach it, but it sometimes feels like it's got this cultlike thing. It's like I I'll make a I'll I'll make a devlog and I'll say I struggled in making this game or something.
Yeah.
And the comments are like, "That's cuz you used Unity. That's cuz you use Unity.
You should have used GDAU." And I'm like, "Everybody calm down. This is just it's just software, okay? We're all going to die one day and this isn't going to matter." Yes.
So anyway, I just find it funny that that engines and this is true for Unreal as well. Unity people, by the way, unity people do not preach. At least I haven't

found that they do because they're ashamed of their faith. Uh it's kind of like certain religions, they just kind of keep quiet, you know? Yeah, I'm a Scientologist, but don't tell anybody.
Um that's kind of how it is with Unity, you know. I'm not proud of Unity either, but I like it. I mean, I use the engine. So,
it's funny though. I I feel partially responsible for those responses like that because I I used to dunk on it so hard because I think what happened was part of it was I was I really was trying to help uh the GDAU team. I've talked to them. Wonderful people. I love what they're doing.
Um so for me that was my way to I think I mean you know it's being provocative always does well.
Oh yeah.
And so to be provocative and be counterculture is really interesting. It makes you stand out. Um, but also because I stood behind like it's just it's great software and it's it's gotten so much better. I still think if you're doing 3D like I don't think Twisted Tower would work very well in GDAU right

now. Like
no, it wouldn't.
It it it
it barely runs in Unity. Um,
I still like obviously Unity is still a great engine. The amount of money that has been poured into that engine, it's just objectively better at this point. But I love the trajectory of GDAU. And so yeah, I think I think I think the thing about open source people, it's kind of like it's kind of like someone going to the grocery store and there's like free bread and they're like and it's it's homemade. It's delicious, the most amazing bread, but people don't want to touch it and they're paying $5 for processed bread. Like no, no, no, but dude, there's there's some wonderful artisan bread that's for free. Yeah.
And I think it makes that's what GDAU is. And people get upset like, "Dude, this is so this is such a no-brainer." Like, especially for beginners. Like, if you're, like I said, if you're doing 3D, use Unreal, use Unity. Uh, or if it's stylized, use use GDAU. But, um, I think that's why people get so preachy about it because it's just like,
can I can I put Mark, can I push back on

your metaphor?
Go for it.
The end result of bread is it goes through your system. It does and and you you empty it out. It it goes away into the toilet. Okay. The end result of Unity versus GDAU is very different. Um, so a better metaphor, people are going to get mad about this. A just I'm just thinking about the comments. You know, a better metaphor is in a car. It's kind of like it's like Unity is like this heavy bulky Jeep. It's really loud on the highway. It's terrible gas mileage, but it's going to work and it's going to get you where you need to go. Whereas GDAU is something like a a car that's engine isn't fully put together and the gas tank isn't connected to the engine and the wheels uh or the tires. Um Yeah. It's just like it's not fully assembled, you know? And the reason I say that is it's not that it can't make a game, it's that it has

trouble shipping games
to certain platforms.
Yeah. Um or it's not it's not it's not even that it can't it can ship to switch. It's just more difficult. You got to be a technician to make it happen. Would you agree with that?
I would. I also know that like there's services and stuff like that and even the GDO Foundation I forget what they're called W4 or something. They're actually creating a system that uh for porting. So I think that's the it's the beautiful thing is it's like it's a car that that's building itself. But that's the problem is it's it's future tense building or like but that's present. I guess it's not built yet.
So it's still in process and that that for me as a business owner of a game studio with investment from 3D Realms. I can't justify using GDAU cuz I'm like we have to ship on console. we have to ship this game and it has to we we have to optimize it and we got to use this kind

of lighting and this three 3D stuff and that stuff isn't fully realized yet with GDAU. Am I wrong?
No, I I I would agree with that. I think it it purely and this is what I say now is it purely comes down to what you're trying to get out out of it, you know, like if you're trying to make a 2D game, don't use Unreal, you know, it's going to be so unoptimized and it's clunky, you know, and if you're trying to make
um there's been per performance tests and stuff like that. GDAU is faster than Unity when it comes to 2D, but if you need to, you know, ship to PS4, I know some some areas are easier to like uh release for versus others, then that's an issue. If you're just releasing a Steam game, if you want to have great support on Linux and Mac and all that stuff, uh then GDO is what you need. So, I think what it is is it's it's a car that can't go off-road yet. You know what I'm saying? It's like
you got like a little coupe and it'll get you and it's fuel efficient. It's like a Honda Civic or something,
but you're not going to be
very fuel efficient.

You're not going to be able to um go off-roading. You're not going to be able to do anything fancy with it. You're not going to be impressing people on the street revving the engine. Um so I still think Unity, like when I see games and people like, "Well, I want to make this." I I'll point them to Unity because I I you got to be realistic. Um but at the same time, um I don't know. It's funny cuz a lot of these like a lot of the issues I had early on with due drop I was like oh I'm like I don't know how to fix this I'm not going to be able to like release the game with this like few bugs.
Mhm.
Obviously it's taking me 5 years to finish this game. But all those bugs have been fixed. Things have been optimized. The performance actually runs better. Like the performance on the game is way better than it was three years ago. And that's not just my code. That's just because the engine's gotten better.
The engine's gotten better.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think that's good, man. I like I like what you're saying. It's it's it's it's not like a religion. It shouldn't be because a religion is typically when people are they have a religion, they're like this is the way, right? Whereas

with engines, it's like this is the way for certain things.
Yeah.
Um and I wouldn't recommend Unity for everything.
Yeah. you know, um I think that uh Unreal, like for example, if you want to make a walking a freaking horror walking sim where you have a flashlight, by the way, I'm super annoyed with all those games and I I love everybody who's making them, but we got to stop, you know, um these horror walking sim games with you find a key and then you unlock a door and then you go in a house. We got to stop these Unreal games from happening. But if you want to make a game like that, Unreal is Unreal is a great game or a great engine for it. Well, let's go ahead, man. Mark, you want to go ahead and open up Dood Drop in in GDAU, and we can take a look at it briefly here?
Let's do it.
Oh, yay. I love this stuff. All right, tell me about what's going on, man.
So, starting off, this is like the main scene. Uh, it's called my game gameplay scene. So, um, I'm sure there's a million ways you can do this, but this is just how I did it. So, if if people are watching this and think it's

strange, it probably is, but it works. So, um, so I have this uh main node. I have this current room node and basically this is where I load in all my rooms. Um I'll load in a room I I'll switch it out. So basically what you're seeing right here is what is loaded at all times um during the while the game's running. Um and then I just swap out this node here here. And if we jump into this node it's it's just the room the level that is Tumbleeed 21.
So uh pretty I don't know for my brain it makes a lot of sense. I think it does. And a node is it's effectively a container.
Yeah. It's like a folder. It's a folder that could be an object if that makes sense. So it's like
it's so confusing, man. Um
it's like
it's a scene. It's an object. It's a So it's a scene, right? It can be a scene.
Yes,
it can be an object. And it can be a prefab. I don't know if you know what

prefabs are, but
I think a prefab is probably what a best way I don't even know if that's a great way to describe it. Basically,
it's not because it's not because nodes can also simply contain scripts with no transforms, right?
It depends on the type of node you choose. So, let's go. I'm going to add a node real quick. Uh, pull this over. So, you can add whatever node like let's go to 2D nodes. Say you want a collision shape or say you want a raycast or let's just do a sprite. Okay.
Yeah. You create a sprite and now your sprite's in the game. So that's actually your sprite, but you can put stuff underneath the sprite. So you can nest objects under that sprite. So I could put sprites under sprites under sprites under sprites under sprites under sprites. And I could put scripts on every single one.
Yes.
So So what you can do is you can make one of these a scene, which is what I have here. That's what these little icons are. They're scenes.
Yes. And basically it's just a
it's uh nodes that are grouped together. It's like a prefab. So just so

it keeps things it makes them less messy because could you imagine if like let's like let's view this locally like you would have all this stuff and then like
ah yes that's unity.
Yes. And that's why I couldn't stand unity because I'm like where is everything? So everything's neatly nested into each other.
Um and it just keeps things nice and nice and tight. And
can we do Mark? Do you mind if we enter um Well, first question. The fog is moving.
Yes.
But we're not in play mode.
Yes.
Why?
Um so some things like particle effects or scripts uh uh or shaders will run uh in editor.
Okay.
Most things don't run in editor, but you can actually in GDO you can actually customize it. So things do run in editor like
Yes. Let's go to I'm I'm not I'm not super familiar with Unity. So these
Unity you can. It's just very heavy. You know, you're gonna

like I could make the clouds move in Unity outside of play mode, but there's no reason to do that.
Okay. So, it's just it's it just automatically does that's like a part of GDAU.
Okay.
Um I'm sure you can disable it if you want to. Um
yeah, but that's a shader. That cloud is a shader.
That cloud is just a shader. It's just a sprite that's just being moved uh with a shader. So, it's it's pretty lightweight. Um,
uh, I have a script. So, we have like a treasure chest. Okay. I'm going to drag it in here. And you'll notice that, uh, it has a little icon over top of it. So, then I have these drop downs that I can change.
Yay.
Things that go in the chest. And then, so that's something that I've added is having a preview of what's in the chest.
Yeah.
Uh, so it's it makes it easier for me. or even these enemy spawners, you can change out what it is
and then it it it shows on the screen. So, those are little things that I've done, even these numbers to show what switch is connected to what door. Um, little things that I've done to just

make the game uh simpler.
Well, I will say um to clarify for people listening, some games can ship and all these different editor tools don't exist.
That's true. um like like objects appearing above the chest and and a simple drop down to change your enemies. That's not necessary for your game, but like for my game, Twisted Tower, we don't have that level of uh editor complexity.
Yeah.
But boy is it useful, you know, to be able to see as the developer see what all the chests contain without clicking on them. You know what I mean? So, I think you're you're definitely doing the right thing. Sometimes things take a little bit of work, but they'll save you a lot of time. And I learned that the hard way. So, I I created the little tools that work for it. And um a friend of mine, Challicade, he showed me some of his debug features. And I'm like, why have why haven't I been doing this for like years, like a room select? Like, I

was manually like going out the project, dragging in the room I want, and then running to the room. For the longest time, I didn't even think about it. And so now I made a room select thing and it's it makes debugging so much faster. So
well some encouragement to the audience is I mean I don't know where you are in on on the AI cult but C-pilot or or ChatGpt or whatever is really really great at making editor tools.
Oh yeah. Um, I don't know about GDAU, but in Unity, you can get a great editor tool built in 5 seconds from from Chad GBT, and it's going to save you 40 hours, you know, of time uh, total. Um, so I found that that because I used to I used to have um team members writing editor tools, and I understand how this sounds. It sucks. It really does that these these team members they they they're not necessary anymore but this is the way it is. I mean it's a whole other conversation but I'll just say

that editor tools having having Chad GBT write editor tools has been a gamecher for me.
So just thought I'd share that.
That's definitely something as a solo dev you know like definitely something I've tapped into more.
Yeah.
Is what what they call vibe coding.
Um but it's so useful. It saves you so much time or even just like, "Hey, I got this problem. Help me diagnose it."
Um, I'm all for it. It's if anyone thinks it's going to replace, it's not sophisticated enough to code the whole entire game.
No, it's not.
I've tried I've tried messing around with projects experimentally and it just doesn't understand. It doesn't doesn't have the expertise that you need as a programmer. And it's not an excuse for you to be lazy as a programmer.
Sometimes I just use it to help me break down
things in layman's terms so I understand what to do.
But That's why with editor tools, it's particularly helpful because editor tools, well, they should not be running in the update. Um, they should be a one-click thing and it does something outside of the game. So, even if the

code that's written is trash, if it works, if it works,
it's outside of the it's outside of play mode anyway. And so, that's why I found it to be particularly helpful with with with um
with uh editor tools. Can I ask you really quick about the um the the tile the tile system here
and how the art is put together and the the visuals?
Yeah, let's go to let's go to a better room. Let's go to um let me think. We'll go to a different location that has a little bit more uh parallax.
What a great name. Blightfields. That's awesome.
So, here's here's what an area looks like outside of the game. Let's see if I can open this more. I have little notes for myself. Um, so essentially it's these are all parallax layers. So you got you got your base layer. Um, typical parallax stuff. So each one of these is on a different layer. Uh, that's pretty pretty straightforward. Um, you'll notice that I use I'm using

more um shaders for clouds just to add some depth. I don't know if you do this or not, but I actually overlay colors. I use this is probably like the most inefficient way of doing this, but I haven't issues.
I actually overlay colors like gradients
over the background or elements
and it changes a room. It makes a room feel slightly different. I've noticed that like some games like even Hollow Night could do this on occasion.
Well, I I I think Hollow Knight is um I think it's using a a shader. I made a video on it on how to do the Hollow Knight look. Now, I'm not saying I'm right, but it's the way that I was able to replicate it was basically what you do is you use Unity's built-in fog system, and you apply that fog to the sprites. So, the further they go back, the more tinted they become towards the fog color. But to answer your question, for me with Never Song, I did exactly this. I had all my sprites all the same color and then I would overlay a big color overlay especially because it

helped create uh distinction between the ground and the background so that the player knows where they can jump.
Yeah, I I do that sometimes. I have separate artwork um for like trees generally like some of these like they actually have like that faded artwork already.
Um sometimes I'll overlay a color but really all this is is this is just a big overlay. Well, I'll turn this back on. This is just modifying the color of the background to just give it a slightly different look.
Yeah, dude. That's great.
I'll have like that. Those were the original colors. I'm like, you know what? It just needs something else. And so, I played with this like these more teal um kind of blue colors. So, um it's just like a way to fine-tune the colors. And if I need to change it, if you're if you're going up a pit or down a pit and there's lava, you can you can change kind of the background temperature. But
I love that.
That's pretty much it. And then tile maps, pretty simple. your standard. You just you just draw it. You see,
if I don't need it,
I don't make it when it comes to the artwork. So,

how are you doing this? Wait, hold on. You act like this is normal. What are you doing? What is this?
Uh, this is
I've never I've never done this before.
So, this is GDAU's new and improved tile editor. uh you set up a using an image like this, you can set up um basically an autotiling map and then uh you set up the terrain. So it's basically just code like hey if this if this thing's next to this thing that'll show up
and then it makes it so easy for you to just draw. I'm on the wrong layer
or I'm on the
Oh, and you've got different layers. You've got the ground layer, the the midground layer, the background layer, the foreground. Yep. So, I got like a background. I call it like the cave walls.
Yeah.
So, I have that. So, it just adds some more detail. But, so it's really easy to draw draw in. Um, that was one of the best improvements with GDO4 and has saved me so much time. Um, and so I do that and then I just throw I have my

foreground layer um foreground elements, my props and stuff like that. Pretty much same. I mean, this is like bog standard.
You get it, you place it, it looks beautiful. So,
can can I have you enter play mode for me so that the people watching can see what this all looks like in the as the final product?
Yeah. So, I before it gets rendered out, there's post-processing as you kind of see here. So, I judge it up with uh quite a bit of uh let's go into full screen.
Oh, I love your menus.
They look neurotic. What I what I mean is like they're particular and very precise, which is totally expected from a graphic designer.
I appreciate it.
I just called you neurotic. Not sure. This is so
He's so bouncy. This is great, Mark.
So, um,
it's totally different than the Steam page.
That's the thing is it's it's really hard to get uh display the sense of

movement that the game has. I recently just redid the walk cycle and I'm
Does he have a pistol?
He does.
So, do you know what? I was going to tell you something, Mark. I was going to tell you to lean into um contrast with with the the bee. So, what I I wanted to tell you this to encourage you that put things in the game that are not are kind of the opposite of what a bee is.
Yeah.
And the fact that he has a pistol is perfect. That's
a lot of game developers would be like, "Well, he needs to shoot like um stingers
out of his butt or something." It's like, "No, no, no. Give him a freaking pistol."
That is so funny. I love it.
Other people that requested a stinger. I was like, early on, I don't know why I decided to make like it bug themed and I just was like kind of a no-brainer thing. And from that point on, and really it was always my intention to I never want to make like a literal
uh like bug game, but ever since then it's just gotten weird. Like there's

dinosaurs the size of you. Then there's flies, like literally tiny flies that fly around by trash can.
I love that.
Uh you got a gun. So I've really tried to lean into the wackiness of the game.
Well, I I know why you did I'm about to say something very sarcastic. Okay. I know why you did bug themed because you copied Hollow Knight. Um, which which I I watched your video and that's that's a sore spot for you because you didn't you know you you just you had the idea and then you found out about Hollow Night later. Um I think that's what happened, right Mark?
It was I actually if anything I copied more of Boba Robot because they had that kind of tiny like there's little frogs and things like that
and I don't I just thought of a bee. So and then I was like why did I pick this? So,
no, I think it's great, man. And and for the record, this is I just wanted to say you should not be paranoid about quote unquote copying Hollow Knight. Do you know how many games are out there that did totally fine that are way more of a copy

of Hollow Knight?
That's true.
This doesn't look like Hollow Knight to me. It really doesn't. Um, and that's not an insult. I'm just saying it's got its own style. Um, you're totally fine, dude. It's a Metroid vania. Uh, or not a Metrovia, it's a Zelda vania. Um, can you shoot for me again? I want to see a downward. Does it bounce you up?
Yeah. So, you have recoil. There's gun jumping. Um, and later on the game, this is a recent edition. Uh, you can get gun mods. Let's Where's the recoil one? You get gun mods that you equip. It's kind of like a a Paper Mario badge system, but it's like Mega Man. And then that affects. So now my recoil is more and I deal more damage. So and then you can you can pair it. I even uh Where's the where's the good one? I don't know if you I don't know if you hear the sound effects at all.
I can I can just a little bit. I think it's coming from through your computer though, but it's fine.
Um there's a gun mod so you can you can

sound like a duck. Just like really wacky stuff. Really playing into that.
Yeah, I I would I would lean into the random apparently Gen Z. I don't think you're Gen Z. I think you're a millennial. Um, are you a millennial?
Millennial. Yeah.
Yeah. I think Gen Z is into like random humor lately. I'm not sure, but random humor kind of fell out of style and I think it's coming back into style.
I noticed that.
Yeah, it's like on Tik Tok apparently. I mean, I'm not on Tik Tok or at least I don't I don't watch Tik Tok. I have an account, but anyway, I think it's becoming more and more popular to be random, which is kind of cringe, but okay, you know. Um, let's do it. You know, if we want to be more random, let's go. He's got donuts. He can eat donuts. Is that a donut?
It's It's a part of the location. There's a uh there's a petissery uh a French petissery on top of a volcano. So,
yes, dude. You're totally on the right track here. That's exactly what we need. I was honestly, I swear to you, man,

before this podcast, I was thinking, I got to tell him that just doing insects is not enough.
Yeah. The thing the thing about Hollow Knight that makes Hollow Knight work is that it's it's bugs with this intense level of high fantasy or like
it is
it's tons of world building and this very serious tone.
But when it's just playful,
you got to go pretty extreme, you know? You got to you got to be weird. You got to go a little weird. This is awesome. Look at this. This is uh so this is kind of like the the demo location was this area, but uh actually a lot of people say that this is a western game because I a lot of the footage is just of the western area in the game and so I've kind of played into that. Here's the gunsmith right here.
What the heck is wrong with you? This is great. He's a NPC that's a
revolver.
Yeah, it's a revolver.
How's the music by the way? I can't hear it. What's it sound like? I don't have

it on right now, but the music is a banger. The um my composer is obsessed with the 90s. So, like I've never seen someone so technically in tune with the '9s. He has like I don't even it's I can't even fully understand what it is. It's like synthesizers that they use for Metroid Prime and Fantasy Star Online. And so, u it's just absolutely a banger. Like um we were both we I was just talking to him the other day and he was saying he's like so many Metroid Vanias are just so gloomy. They're very moody which makes them atmospheric and cool
but they're too moody where they're just kind of depressing. And our goal with your job is just to make it like it's got that '9s energy. It just it's fun.
You're happy. It's it's got that paper. It's like it's a Metroid vania where you don't need to take Xanax. That's that's kind of that's what we think internally. I love that, bro. Well, this is awesome. I I think do to be completely honest with you, prior to this call, I wasn't

sure of the game's quality just cuz I haven't seen it um in a long time or at least your recent or your old footage. I was looking at Steam and stuff, but this this you definitely made the right moves, man. This looks awesome. It's super bouncy and he looks like he's kind of made out of like like a play-dohy material when he runs. And look at that. Dude, the attention to detail, the the the inflating of the dynamite is a brilliant idea. Um,
I appreciate it's a lot of a lot of love and and effort has gone into uh uh just the polishing and I think that's the part I've I've really enjoyed the most is just taking an area cuz some areas in the game
are there's a few locations that are just like don't really have this level of detail. But getting it to this level, getting the bosses in, and then just adding all the little characters, the weird uh little details, the interactables, the collectibles, it's so much fun. I think that's that's where

this game is actually it went from it being a chore to it being like a delight to work on. So,
well, I'll I'll I'll finish with this. I think that tumble weed or that that bush that's moving, the brown bush.
Oh, is it right here in front of They're not actually They're not rotating, are they?
This one right here.
Yeah, the the blowing in the wind. It looks like the It's still pixel perfect. Is that true?
So, I have a a dirty little secret. Nothing is pixel perfect.
Really?
Yeah. Um, so that just has a shader. I think it it is rotating. I maybe
it's got like those scan lines or whatever. Like it looks like it's like Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I think it is. Uh, I think that shader specifically is pixel perfect, but there's other things in the game that aren't.
Yeah,
that bothers some people. I remember, was it Dev Duck you were saying how
Y
it bothers you when it's not pixel perfect.
Yeah, I think I may have critiqued him um on the podcast.
I I don't like when there's in pixel

games when things rotate because it's like
that's not allowed. Uh you cannot rotate at least in the modern way. You have to do it in the traditional way which I don't even know how to do. Um,
I agree.
I agree with that. But I did break that. There's some things that are like there are some enemies or things that do rotate.
Um, but I agree. Like Terraria is really guilty of like rotating. It looks really bad.
Yeah.
Um, but I've kind of adapted that into the style where there's some things that I have even like the foreground artwork. It's slightly upscaled. So it's everything's very subtle.
I couldn't tell, man. I really couldn't. And I I kind of I do care about that kind of thing. So, hey man, this is great. Thank you so much for your time um coming on the podcast. Uh super super impressed with what you've made here. I'm really really impressed.
Um anything anything you want to leave in the description, Mark? Call to action here?
My only call to action is to check out Do Dynasty. Um

it's uh we're going to we're working on the marketing for it here soon. We've just been focused on working on the game. Um, so we're gonna make a new trailer here soon, new screenshots.
Uh, it's I think people don't fully understand how much has changed and how how fun the game actually is. So, I'm excited to share that with everyone. So, if you're interested, if you like Paper, if you like Hollow Knight meets Paper Mario type of game, check out Doo Drop Dynasty. So,
all righty. Links in the description, guys. Give it a wish list. Uh, not as a way of being nice to Mark. Only do it if you really like it.
Yes. Um, mainly because you don't want fake wish lists. But yeah, check it out, guys. All right, Mark. Thanks, man. Also, if you're interested in optimizing your crash and error reporting workflow for development and released builds, I definitely recommend you go and check out Sentry and their Unity SDK. It's really easy to set up and you can do this completely for free by simply clicking the link in the description.