Finding Duskers: Innovation Through Better Design Pillars

[Music] all right hey my name is Tim Keenan I made a game called duskers which this talk is about uh before that I made a game called a virus named Tom before that I worked at Dreamworks Animation for 10 years uh making everything from Shrek 2 to How to Train Your Dragon and before that I worked at a AAA game studio called rainbow Studios down in Phoenix um and that's about it so this talk is called finding duskers as you guys can see uh and the reason that I named it that is because uh I think that the process that I went through when I was making this game uh was a little less traditional uh that you go through a design process where you have your design Dock and you have all these ideas uh and it was more about finding the game and discovering what it was um and you'll see that there's like benefits and detriments to the way of doing that but I it worked out for me so I figured I would go over that with you guys um so I guess the first question is what is duskers uh so duskers is a game where you pilot drones into deric spaceships

to try and figure out why everybody's dead uh and I didn't want to play the entire trailer for you but I figured I would give you just a little bit of gameplay footage here if oh no we're going to do this come on [Music] [Music] so that's not as sexy as the trailer but I didn't want to make you guys watch a full trailer uh but that just gives you kind of a quick idea you are piloting those drones and you're the Drone operator and you're dropping motion sensors and doing all these things to not die um so that's all great I made a video game that's awesome why do I get to stand up here what makes duskers interested

um there are a couple really weird things that came about in the design process uh we added a command line interface to the game uh we don't have a soundtrack and we kind of made a real-time strategy game that defies almost every convention for real-time strategy games uh and it's not that I intended to do this this isn't part of my you know original design and as a matter of fact if you had told me I was going to do this I would have been like oh God like what have I done uh but it actually ended up turning out okay and the reason why is because this was all part of the game this is what I was listening to about the game and the game led me here and this talk is going to kind of show you guys how in the world we ended up here and why um so the game was well received a lot of people really liked it um and this slide is a little bit easier all of these represent some kind of end of the year award or uh you know game of the year best of 2016 whatnot uh you'll notice down here in the corner we are nominated for excellence in design so if tomorrow even if this talk is bad if you guys could just like cheer and come to the the igf

ceremony when duskers is called out that'd be great um so when we got all of these things uh all these Awards and accolades and stuff like that it was great and I was trying to figure out like what did we do right and I think the two things I heard the most were these two words is innovative and cohesive uh not in these words exactly but a lot of times we' get like I've never played anything like this and everything in the game the atmosphere and the gameplay and and the sound design and everything just kind of fits together in this like perfect hole and that I think that's what we did well uh and I think the reason we did it well was because of the design process that we went through um and this is sort of the three things that I want to talk about the ugliest slide you'll ever see at GDC but before we get into that I noticed that design pillars was in every single one of them and everyone might not know what in the heck I'm talking about when I say design pillar so really quickly uh what is a design pillar so the notion behind a design pillar is it's something about your game that's like super core uh and everything in the game should sort of revolve around it and actually that's why it design pillar

is kind of a weird bad word because it to me is kind of emblematic of this process that we have that's really good for some games and not for others whereby you would put you would erect these pillars first and then you would build the game and I'm going to show you guys that I didn't do that I was just sort of building the game and then I would discover a pillar and then I would kind of put it up um so traditionally like I'm saying they're established before production uh and they kind of use features and highle mechanics um and the caveat here is that I'm not dissing on this I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing this is really good for games and EST establish genres around tight deadlines and I'm going to say a lot of AAA games where you've got a budget and you've got a team and a lot of burn and you can't just like wander around and think about feelings and stuff like that uh you really got to kind of do these things so they're definitely not bad uh so I went on the internet and I googled design pillars and I clicked on the first video um because I'm a researcher and uh and this is what came up this actually a good video um but he was giving an example of what design pillars are and this was a game this is a beat him up you know kind of uh know Double Dragon style and you

know we've got AR arcade style uh we've got nonlinear branching stage progression and we've got local and online multiplayer um and for me and you'll see as this talk goes on this stuff is kind of dry right I mean I'm not really like super inspired to make a game that's just nonlinear and I I've never heard a friend come up to me and be like oh my God you got to play this game it's nonlinear uh and so I kind of feel like if you're going to make a game and this is going to be the heart of your game uh that's it's going to kind of shine through so these things should be way cooler right um so then again I Googled and tried to find a design doc uh and I found what I think might be Assassin's Creed 2 I don't know this isn't official uh but fight navigation social stealth this wasn't bad this was a little bit better um but again this seems like you know these features on the back of the box and not something that's like going to inspire me uh and I'm going to be able to tell my team about necessarily so um I guess that starts to beg the question what did duskers do differently like what did we do and real quick um we created design pillars throughout

development rather than at the beginning so that I could kind of feel the game and have it evolve uh we had design pillars that were emotions and feelings rather than features and mechanics um and I'll tell you why I did that and then I think you're supposed to do this anyway uh stay true to design pillars with every design decision but I don't think everybody's as OCD about it as they could be uh and sometimes that's because there's a marketing guy or there's like you know other reasons but if you're really like batchet crazy about this it can really pay off uh and that can really show uh I guess your artistic intent will come through even though it's subtle uh and this will make sense in a second maybe beg bar steel sorry I forgot about this one so throughout this talk I'm going to kind of name drop a lot of really cool uh game developers and that's because what I tend to do is I just talk to smart people and then I steal their ideas so given that you're a GDC and you're sitting at a bunch of people at a design talk it might be good to shake some hands because eventually you know when you're in your own thought process it's

hard to innovate just by yourself so it's really good to just bounce ideas off of other people and uh and it really works out it did for me uh so all right let's go through these things one by one real quick and then I'll get to examples of how we did this in duskers so creating design pillars throughout development I call this listening to your game right so instead of like establishing things up front what I try to do is I think of it like a dance right I might be sort of leading this dance but if you've ever done any traditional dancing ballroom dancing or swing or or whatever um there's there's a partner there and you've kind of got to feel each other and you've got to kind of go with that flow and especially if you're imagine if you're inventing a new dance right you're going to step on each other's toes a couple times and things are going to be bad but you can't just you know bulldoze your way through it you've got to kind of feel it and so what I felt was is that I listened to duskers and as duskers went on it was telling me and I don't mean I do mean like almost every aspect of this I don't just mean we sat in front of like some Focus testers and you know we got some data that's really good too and listening to other designers some of it is like almost psychological profiling

on yourself you're like figuring out what in the heck you're actually trying to do with this game uh so have design pillars that are emotions and feelings all right now this is I think this is really important for me anyway because things can be so much more pervasive than like nonlinear like imagine if I'm going to my sound designer and I'm like all right this game's going to be nonlinear like what are they going to come back to me with right if I'm like this game is all about empowerment I think that gives them more and that can actually start to lead or anxiety what what you know what have you uh you can actually start to use the UI and you can give the art Direction and all of those things can feed off of that and that goes into this whole like cohesive thing right where things feel start to feel cohesive um it also leaves room to explore different solutions this goes into the Innovative thing right like if nonlinear can be implemented in in a couple ways but if you're trying to implement anxiety right there's lots of different ways to do that so the odds that you as a designer will come up with something youi and different because

that's who you are it it's kind of Greater so this will lead to sort of innovation uh and then it also just by default it focuses on player fantasy and every game doesn't need player fantasy I think you can play Tetris without imagining that you are a block or something like that uh or the guy that Stacks the blocks uh but I do think a lot of games can really lend them like player fantasy can make them very strong I think that was a big thing in duskers is that people really felt like they were a drone operator uh and so I think that when you're talking about emotions and feelings that's what you're trying to get the players feel so if that's your design pillar that kind of makes sense cuz it's sort of one to one right um and then finally stay true to your design pillars with every design decision um and in the I don't know if you guys have seen the movie Finding Nemo but there's a scene where all these fish are swimming in different directions uh and then they start telling them all to swim down and they're getting towed up and then when all the fish start swimming down they become so much more powerful and then they basically break the beam and they get out of the net um ironic I worked at DreamWorks and this is a Pixar movie but

when I was at DreamWorks they said the same thing I would be working on a shot and I would be like no one is going to notice this I'm spending like 2 days on you know this this thing in the corner and no one's going to notice and they were like yeah you're right no one's going to notice that but in aggregate they're going to feel it and everything about this movie is just going to be visually beautiful and like that's going to come across and I started buying into that and you'll see that I had like a very I had some strange like very esoteric sort of artistic intents with this game and I I wasn't overt about the in any one way but because every design decision focused around that it came through and people actually regurgitated that back to me and that was kind of amazing um I don't know as this designer and as a creative uh it's not often that I can do something usually it's like oh did you did you feel anxiety when you were playing it and they're like yeah I I think I think I did that's usually what it is but I was getting people like coming to me saying my artistic intent and that was like blowing my mind away and I think that's why is because everything revolved around those things

all right so let me give you guys a quick example of a game that was very inspiring to me uh Adam Salzman and Robin Arno made this game called capsule uh and if this will play this game blew my mind when I saw it everything in this game is working together there is a Bend of the CRT monitor there are boops and beeps there is a scan line that goes down uh the UI the sound design everything about this game screamed to me that I was in this claustrophobic little bubble in space and I had this crappy little CRT Monitor and my instruments and that's all I had and this blew my mind and I was like if they can do this then I can do this uh you know and that's when you steal ideas so uh and actually you don't only have to steal ideas because at the end of the development of duskers I got Robin to come over and help do sound design so you can steal people too uh so there's like a whole whole stealing it's like

it's endless what you can steal um so uh I just kind of wanted to use that as a quick example uh so now let's get into the fun stuff let's talk about duskers and how all of this stuff affected duskers um so at let's just at the beginning of duskers I had this idea it was like you were Han and chewy and you owed some gangsters money and there was this Bermuda Triangle of destroyed spaceships and you were going to go in and basically TB raid them um and there were going to be Tower Defense mechanics because you were going to make sure that as you opened up door is the bad things didn't come out and eat you and so your little drones would you know fire on them uh and I and you so this was originally like kind of the concept and that's the thing this this talk isn't really about ideation this is kind of like once you're kind of going like how do you find your way uh and so not much of this made it into duskers actually um as a matter of fact I I remember at the beginning of this um uh in my initial prototype um so let's start with the simple premise right piloting drones into der spaceships all right so what I made

initially was this simple all right so we're going to we're going to steal more ideas here uh so I made this I jokingly called it boxes in space it was just cubes with a headlamp and you were going through this steric spaceship and uh Randy O Conor who uh did a scape goat to and a whole bunch of other stuff he was playing it and he was like and after just a couple minutes he got done with it and he was like I'm really tense right now and his shoulders were up and he was just really tense and I was like wow that's really impactful for a game with like so little effort into it right so I started exploring a lot of things I started exploring like the combat and all that stuff and those things would kind of work but they wouldn't they didn't have that effect that that that simple initial prototype had and I actually remember um I remember struggling with the uh the combat system actually and Alex Austin who's right there uh who did Gish and he's doing sub Roser right now uh I was like man I'm really struggling with the combat like I don't know what to do and he was like why are you not focus on combat and I'm like what a dick

like that's such a jerk answer but it was so right and I didn't focus on combat and actually the game doesn't focus on combat at all and that's probably one of the best things about the game uh so steal ideas people so so now that the uh so the combat wasn't working but the drones were so let's focus on those drones right and moving them around in space that's when I got the idea or actually I was suggested the idea no one will take credit for it no no one will admit that they did this but they they were like what about a command line interface and I was like that's a horrible idea and then I was like this is probably my last game I'm an indie game developer why don't I do that uh so I threw in the command line interface and then the player fantasy started to become about being a drone operator and commanding these drones and it was really starting to feel really good um and this is when um uh Pete angat who did uh Canon brawl and he's doing is it C kingdoms and castles yeah and uh he worked on abzu uh so when you're getting design help it's not always that you want yes man it's not always people that

are affirming your ideas a lot of time it's really good if they think your ideas are because you have to then justify what you're doing or change what you're doing so he completely crapped all over all of this he said drones are a horrible idea because people don't care about drones if a drone dies it's just a piece of metal right if it's a scientist or a Space Marine or whatever that's a human and they die people care so that's a bad decision command line interface hey man realtime strategy games drag select right click that's a convention why is it it's because over like decades people have f fig that this stuff works right so hey let's make people type this clunky interface that's really obnoxious that's a horrible idea too uh uh a drone operator he was like nobody wants to be tank everyone wants to be Neo this is a matrix reference everybody wants to uh fly through the air and kick people in the head and shoot them with SH machine guns no one wants to be that guy behind all the computers the operator right that you call um and I realized I wanted to be tank at that point uh but uh I was like so how do I justify all this stuff right like

this is this was solid this wasn't him being a jerk this was really good feedback and these were really good arguments and I had to come up with a justification or I had to change these things I couldn't just be like Oh I'm just kicking over design principles left and right because I'm an indie it's like you have to actually justify this stuff and I was like why am I doing this why am I doing all this stuff and it goes back to Randy feeling tense which was the strongest thing IID had in the game so far and I was like this stuff feels tense why does this stuff feel tense this stuff feels tense because this stuff feels real all right if I hit up on a keyboard and a human moves up that I have no that doesn't happen in the real world right that can happen with a drone uh using command line interfaces to control robots feels visceral and it feels real uh being a drone operator to me feels more realistic than flying through the air and kicking people in the head um so uh all of a sudden it's all started coming together and I was like that's what it is is this game feels real so that became a pillar for

me uh and again that's sort of like a like a feeling or an emotion right is is this realism that I'm really the Drone operator so now the question is all right we've got we've come this far with realism now we're I'm talking about how these things can be pervasive where do we go from there how do we take realism and apply it to the rest of the game okay no music all right uh I come from a film background and if you take a soundtrack out of a film the film sucks uh it's like chopping off your legs I don't know if you've ever watched a scene from a movie and then watched it without the soundtrack it's amazing how much you lose from that so this isn't like oh I think I'll do this this is like a strong decision but that was my pillar it was realism and music is non- diagetic and what I mean by that is I don't walk around and hear a score playing in my head every time it would be awesome if when I walked into a room something like that happened but it doesn't uh and so it's non- diagetic and it doesn't fit in my game and that was a really scary decision but I was like hey if I'm going to do it I'm going to go all the way already put a command line interface in the game for Christ's sakes

so uh that became a decision uh another thing is that at the beginning of the game people I started realizing I have to go further with this because people were like oh I'm I'm the Drone or okay now I'm playing as the Drone operator um and to steal another idea David Rosen who does overgrowth was like why don't you have the player uh walk up to a b of monitors and sit down and then you zoom in on a monitor now they know they're the Drone operator and I like that at first and then I was like no that doesn't work at all because then I'm not the Drone operator I'm playing the Drone operator who's already in the game because I'm not moving my head I'm not in that room uh I wanted your monitor to be your monitor I wanted your keyboard to be your keyboard because that's real to me so what I did was when the game begins we show a boot screen because we're letting you know this computer you're sitting in front of is your computer this is you you're not playing the Drone operator you are the Drone operator and so you can see how this is just this notion of realism is just starting to pervade every molecule of this game right uh same thing we originally had this Clos circuit TV look

um and actually and so slam imagery is a lot closer to what you actually get when you're talking about robots and how they see the world you know casting out dots and doing Edge detection and stuff like that and I remember tweeting out like the comparison picture and being like what do you guys like and most people like the CCTV better um at that point I mean we we changed things a bit from here but um I was sitting there and I was like you know what like that's just not what the game is that's not real there's not a camera hovering above above uh the Drone right I would be getting back data and this feels more real to me so again like a strong decision that we decided to make so that everything is going in the same direction and everything is revolving around this realism pillar right uh so did this come across right I would say that it did we got so many people all of our fans they put on headphones they turn off the lights and the monitor is their monitor and they imagine they're in a spaceship we have some people that'll go down into their basement or it will turn off the heat so that they're cold and they have to wear like fingerless mittens it's crazy right and

you can even see in this second quote they're talking about the lack of in-game music and how that made them focus on this stuff and made it feel more real right so this is something like how can I convey this and it got conveyed right it's like you can do this and it's kind of amazing uh it's like a drug uh so let's keep going right so we've got this realism pillar so what else can we do piloting drones into derc spaceships all right let's steal more ideas uh so I was on a plane with Jim Crawford who made frog fractions too and he I was telling him about this game and he's like oh deric spaceships he's like you know I don't know if anybody's done like zombies in space and I was like I don't want to do zombies in space but it made me think about the derik spaceships and like how I'm making a game with all these derc spaceships uh and like the theming of it just seems a little bit weird and I also went to a talk uh that Robin hunii did who uh did Journey and she's doing with Tom and Luna right now uh and she was talking about emotions and she was saying how can we get deeper with our emotions can we not just do like fear and and and joy can we get

like at something deeper or more subtle uh and that's like a challenge to an indie developer especially an arrogant one like me so I was like maybe I could do that right uh and then so I started thinking about it I was like what emotion would that be cuz right now I got chewy and Han right and it's kind of like a buddy comedy um but really if they're all derel spaceships and people aren't around that's more like Moon I don't know you guys have seen the movie Moon uh but he's isolated on uh like a space station basically um doing a tour and all he has is like an AI there with him right um and that kind of makes sense and so I started thinking about it and I'm like all these aspects of the game that I was talking about before there aren't people there's no one there there are robots there's a command line you're a drone operator this is you're alone this is isolating right so my next pillar became isolation right and that's that you could say that's a little bit weirder than uh like fear or Joy or something like that how can I convey isolation to people when they're playing my game that would be cool right so

let's try um I mean it's really interesting to start playing with this idea of Technology it kind of reminds me of Facebook right like where technology enables us to connect to each other but then we have like less face to-face conversations right so this technology is enabling you to explore these ships but it's uncaring you put the motion sensor down it's just like it's red or it's green it's on or it's off it's not like hey man look out there's bad things it's just like Boop right and there's something there's a disconnect that happens right there right and it's kind of interesting and look at what we have right we've got a command line interface you don't talk to people like this this is reminding you every time you type in a command you're not talking to a person right cuz people you talk to differently and the slam imagery that I'm talking about that's not how we see the world remember the closed circuit TV I mean it's grainy but that's how we see the world it's like video right we don't see the world like Edge detection so that's reminding you even when you look at this it's like I'm trying to interpret data from something that's not human nobody here is like me right um so it's kind of amazing all these things already fit in

right with the realism stuff all these things kind of intersected so this was a perfect pillar so this came up as I was designing the game uh but now the question is okay can we push things further now that we know about isolation can we create things that are interesting like this right so here we go all right we've got drones can we make these drones feel more like you're isolated can we do that and I think we can right if you've seen movies like Cast Away um I call it the Wilson effect where Tom Hanks has this this volleyball and it's Wilson and it's got like this Blood hand stain on it or something like that and he talks to it I'm like what I have to do is make you act crazy and then realize that you're acting crazy right so originally this was going to be R2-D2 like you were going to tell it to go into a room and it was going to argue with you it was going to beep and Boop and be like you're going to be like get in there right and it was going to be fun uh but the problem is that drone has autonomy and intelligence right if you're doing that you kind of have someone to talk to really right so what if I could could make it that you imbue

the drones you anthropomorphize them you imbue them with personality and you are aware that you're the one doing it then you would feel crazy and you'd be like I need to talk to people so what we did was we started giving them names and we gave them call signs that were different higher pitch lower pitch but it never did that on its own only in response to a command but every time you asked it to go into a room it would give it little tweet and you'd be like that's that's Ron right uh and that goes into the room also the fact that they only did things that you asked them to do make made this like weird like pet SL child relationship you would go into a room and if there was something bad in there that attacked it it wouldn't run away there was no autonomy it would just kind of sit there and be like this hurts dad why did you put me in this room right and everyone felt really really bad when they did that when they would suck it out the air lock or whatever they'd be like oh no Ron that was my bad you were such a good drone right and they knew everybody knew that I that it was them they were like this is just a drone I hit up it goes up but somehow I love this thing and I'm crazy and that was

really important um logs okay this is another thing where we're let's talk about realism and isolation right if you're if you're not around people all the time you'll forget it eventually you'll be like H I'm playing a video game right but if I bring up a log where people are talking you're like oh wow hey there are people oh but they're all dead and I'm the only one left uh and so it reminds you that you're alone right and then the realism part of it if there were like NPCs that were talking to you they you know you'd you can't ask them a question and have them talk back but if they're in a log that feels real cuz someone could have written this and I can't talk to them because they left a log behind right so this is kind of where both of these emotions are kind of working together and it's so this is part of this like sort of cohesion thing right um so did it work out right I mean I literally have like people mention the word isolation in reviews this guy's talking about tabbing out to Facebook and writing emails in the middle of playing the game because he felt so alone and that there wasn't anybody to

talk to like that blows my mind right that like you can sit here and you can Target these things and you can convey them if you make like bold decisions and you stick with those decisions throughout everything that you're doing and like people will get it that's kind of like I don't know it's kind of amazing to me um so uh I don't know where we are on time uh I think we're okay all right we're okay right now uh so let me go into you can not only steal ideas from other designers and your mom and stuff like that but the community is totally willing to let you steal their ideas so we had radiation in the game uh and it would flood in a room and you would have to get out of there um and players were complaining about it because they were like oh I don't know when it's going to happen and I'm I'm sitting here thinking about my realism pillar and I'm like when you went into that spaceship we tell you that it's unstable so you got to close doors behind you and just get ready just in case radiation floods um so basically I wasn't listening to them uh but then after they kept whining about it I was like I guess whining isn't a good

word to use uh after they kept telling me about this issue uh I was like you know what everything in the game right now is about planning is about having a plan and adapting to survive right but when you adapt you always create a new plan and so if a monster would chew on the door let's say you'd have about 60 seconds to figure out a new plan that's why the game is real time is to create that tension but really it's a strategy game so the problem with radiation was they weren't creating a new plan the new plan was instant and it was get out of that room and close all the doors it wasn't okay if any of these rooms flood with radiation right now what am I going to do like let me come up with a plan for just in case that happens so I was kind of violating a pillar that I didn't even know about which was that everything was about having a plan and making a new plan and so what I did was I added in an audio cue of the ship creaking and then I did a really fun thing where it doesn't always flood with radiation um so that you sometimes you would just freak out you'd come up with a plan and nothing

would happen uh but a lot of times it would and so now you're sitting there and you hear this thing and there's this pavlovian response and then you're coming up with a plan so that was the community basically telling me because they had played the game more than me what a pillar was so and this came late in development and that most of the things adhered to this but there were a few things that didn't and so I went back and changed them and everybody liked those changes um so yeah so in summary uh create I created design pillars throughout development instead of of starting with these design pillars uh I had these design pillars that were emotions and feelings rather than like features and mechanics uh and I tried to stay true to those design pillars with every design decision even if it made me make decisions that I thought were a little bit crazy um and I feel like that that all paid off uh and that's kind of my [Applause] talk um how we around

questions okay I guess we can take about two questions and then the rest we'll have to take in some other place so I don't know if anybody has any questions good oh man I thought everything was thoroughly explained in this talk that was great um so it sounded like you had a lot of different ideas going through it but they all seemed really good um and that might have just been cuz this was like a curated talk so I'm wondering like the one thing it said you abandoned was the combat was there like anything else during the development that you thought was a pillar and then later didn't end up really working out yeah I know there were a lot of things so that slide I I only added it like literally today cuz I was like I didn't talk about all the things that didn't work out but if you look at that slide like my whole story of like a buddy comedy kind of thing didn't work out the combat didn't work out the the Tower Defense stuff didn't work out it was just like it became that

it was there was an optimal strategy which was place your turrets at the pinch points which your doors um and open the door you know so it's like those things didn't work out um and those were I think what happens is that I think at the beginning when you're designing you need something you can't just sit there and be like you know what are so you it's almost like you just need to pick a direction and start swimming and then eventually you'll be like okay I'm going in the wrong direction but at least I know that I'm going in the wrong direction right uh and so I think that's initially you just kind of need some stuff uh if that answered it I don't know go ahead uh so duskers has a pretty unusual control scheme yeah and I was wondering um just over the course of development with testers and then later with players uh if you got a lot of Kickback uh on that and and like how did you uh I guess prime your players or just adjust to that yeah so that was a big thing and I actually couldn't believe that these people invested in my game and they knew

all of these things which is nuts to me uh but the uh the thing was is that at the beginning we kind of you're kind of afraid of it so we put the command line interface in but I still had Mouse for a lot of other things um and then eventually it's just like make those strong decisions eventually people would grab the mouse and they would do things and they would want to do certain things with the mouse and I kept backing it out and backing it out and then eventually I was like we can't have any Mouse like as soon as we let them use the mouse they're going to want to use it for other things and right on the beginning there's just no there was just no mouse anymore like the opening menu we have like you know the bracket with the letter so you can hit it or you can do up and down and that was really important and that took a while to come up with all of that even because I was just I was afraid that it was also development time because it's like it sounds weird but like most most interfaces on PC are like using Mouse and so you know to actually go back and redo it the way that it used to be done like took a little bit of processing and stuff like that and things weren't out of the box so I kind of wanted to avoid it at first but we just kind of had to go all in and once we did that once we made it that the opening menu you didn't

use the mouse it was fine like we like everyone was complaining about it and then all of a sudden we took a completely away and then no one expected it and it was fine well fine for the kind of audience that would play this kind of game anyway all right those are my two questions so I guess the others I guess we'll have to take right somewhere in the other Corridor okay thank you [Music]