Classic Game Postmortem: The Bard's Tale I and II

We made it here. Okay, so I'm supposed to ask you guys to silence any noise makers you have and to tell you that you're going to be getting an email to rate this session. And am I supposed to ask them to move in, scooch in also? Does that sound right? Like toward the center? Do whatever you want. You know, meh. That's what I do. Back in 1981, doesn't seem like that long ago, but uh I was in my apartment in Berkeley and I was playing this game on my Apple II. A dungeon adventure, first-person adventure. And I just sitting there and I'm staring down these corridors. They're not really corridors, they're just white lines plotted on this default

black background, but it was like I was there. And I'm looking down this corridor, looking, trying to figure out what's ahead, like something's going to jump out at me. And I would spend long nights there with my my list of spells ready to go, typing them in. Um drawn from perspective, I can remember hardly sleeping for days, up all night, staring there, trying to figure out where I was going next. There wasn't anything to see. Basic sort of a game written in Pascal, higher-level language on an Apple II. So it was really clunky and slow, but it was real for me. That's my experience. Seems unbelievable today when we think back on something like that. In a gaming industry and a motion picture industry that's so wrapped up in computer-generated realism, the graphics are so vivid today, where graphical complexity, it seems to me, is sort of taken over things and is more central sometimes than the

content behind it, which back in these old times was was all that the games really were about. And you'd think that the graphical realism in movies and in games would draw us in powerfully, but sometimes they don't today. It's not always the case. But it was out of those nights in my apartment back in 1981, 1982 that The Bard's Tale came to be because I saw a lot of possibility in this game and in Wizardry. Um and uh I uh I wanted to experience more as I was playing this game. I'm looking down these corridors and I'm thinking, I have so many ideas for things I want to do in this game that I can't do. And that's where Bard's Tale really came like. I wanted people to surpass the limits. I wanted to surpass the limits in the game. I wanted to go through walls. You know, I wanted to do more things than than were in the game and that started uh my experiences in Wizardry gave rise to this idea that I had about something more powerful and more vivid. People

have written me over the last 30 years and tracked me down at different points and found me and and said, "I want to tell you this game changed my life." It's weird to hear that, you know, thinking about putting this together when I was a young guy. Um many people have told me that. They didn't just tell me it was fun for them or whatever, but there was something life-changing about the game for them. And you've probably had that kind of experience at some point in your life where you've seen a movie or read a book or something and it and it changed your life in some way where where you didn't feel like you were just wasting your time playing it or you know, like how you watch tons of TV and then later you think, "Man, I just wasted all that time. I feel horrible right now." But but sometimes there are experiences that come from things like this that change us. Uh and uh you get something from it for yourself. And we don't see it a lot. And we have movies today that have these amazing effects and no soul. And it leaves me with questions. I don't probably leaves you with questions. Like why couldn't Lucas replicate the success of the first three movies in the next three? With all the extra money and technology at available to him, what

happened in there? And even even the the ones that are being made today sort of leave me cold. It's not the same experience anymore. Well, I'm going to I'm going to take you on a little journey through my experience on Bard's Tale and part of my goal in this session is to give you a hint as to what I think one of the answers to that might be. Uh I don't want to oversimplify it, but I want to give you a clue and uh hopefully inspire a vision in your mind uh if you're a game designer or creator, maybe to avoid some of that and end up with something that's not just a game, but something that's an experience that impacts people's lives, which is something you have control over. So first I'm going to I'm going to cover some history about this and uh then I'm going to cover some philosophy, uh my some of my philosophy uh behind design and I'm going to even uh throw in a little bit of theology, but just a little bit. So before I knew anything about coding, I was uh designing dungeons in Dungeons and Dragons, uh which is where Bard's Tale started. It started, you know, sort of game top uh playing. And I was in high school and uh they uh they tried to

launch a Dungeons and Dragons club at high school and I showed up. Uh that's me in the I made the yearbook shot. Uh I show up, but it was being run by these nerds. This was the problem. And when I say that, please understand, I was a nerd, but these guys had like paper mache armor on and like crowns made from, you know, uh construction paper and things like that. They weren't serious about the game. So I ended up making the yearbook, but I ended up leaving the leaving the club after that. But but my name got around a little bit because of that. And so I was walking around the quad of our high school and these two guys walk up to me uh in letterman jackets. Okay, they're they're football players. Normally I was startled they'd walk up to me because I was like one of these invisible guys in high school, right? That that normally guys like this would not talk to. And they walked up and talked to me and they said, "Hey, we hear that you put dungeons together. Uh we play Dungeons and Dragons. Would you like to take us through a dungeon?" And I'm like, "Sure." Uh I was blown away. And uh these two guys, their names were One was John Perry and the other guy's name was Brian

Fargo. Now Brian, you know, it's funny cuz he talks about himself as being a nerd sometimes back from this time. Is Brian here right now? Is he Did he make it to this? Um he's here, but uh he's busy this week. Uh He He talks about himself being a nerd, but you know something, he was a super popular kid in in high school. He was a track star at our high school and he played football. Uh but uh but he played Dungeons and Dragons and uh some of the other guys on the football team did. And so I ended up taking these guys through some dungeons at that time, which was really awesome for me because I got invited to all these great parties that Brian would throw at his house, at his parents' house. His parents threw these outrageous parties for high school students and I ended up getting invited to those and I was which was really awesome. And it was one of the greatest things about Brian is though he had this nerdy friend, like he didn't care at all. And uh and we just absolutely never had Brian's never cared about what anybody thinks about anything. And that was one of the great things that made him such a great friend. And I ended up, you know, having the benefit of that and got in getting to talk to some real

girls, which uh was, you know, the first time in my life that it ever happened. Uh but I I was an artist. That was kind of my thing at this time and I drew these line art, kind of comic book style uh illustrations. It was was my hobby. Uh and what I would do is I'd illustrate these dungeons. So I'd I'd actually all the major rooms that you'd go into, I'd have I'd have a pretty elaborate illustration for it. And the illustrations would contain clues and puzzle pieces to the adventure. And and I would write it kind of in a way it was more of a more of a script, more like a book story. It wasn't like a lot of the stuff that the that the campaigns of the creators of Dungeons and Dragons were coming out with at that time. So these guys really liked the dungeons, you know, and they'd be studying the illustrations, trying to figure out, you know, how I was going to kill their guys or or whatever. And uh you know, but I I gave out a lot of magical items. I didn't really follow the rules for doing this thing correctly, but the guys always had a great time playing my games. And then I get to hang out with these guys and we'd go out to Sergeant Pepperoni's Pizza Parlor and they had stand-up arcade games in the back. And Missile Command, Asteroids,

uh Space Invaders, these kind of things. And uh me and and Brian and some of these other guys and we'd play these games all the time. And that really was the gaming industry at that point. There was nothing else at that stage. But it was right about that time Brian's parents bought him an Apple II computer. And I and I remember going over to his house and walking in, I'm looking at this thing and he's trying to explain to me what it is cuz at first it's I don't I don't get it. And and I'm starting to wrap my mind around it as he's talking about it and he's showing me this interface for for basic programming. And I'm like, "Wait a minute. Can you play games on this?" And he says, "Yeah, actually there's a couple games out." And I and and so I sit down and he's showing me some basic programming right there. And so he and I end up uh developing a game together. Uh he and I were both coding it there in his in his parents' house. We started writing a game called Labyrinth of Mardigras. It was a text-based adventure written in BASIC. And I drew the cover and uh we got it printed up at a good a

good friend of mine's dad owned a civil engineering firm and he's actually sitting here in the front row from high school and he printed up copies for us. And Brian and I took this around, Paragon Gaming. We took this around and distributed it at a bunch of computer stores in uh in Orange County and actually thought we were, you know, doing real game development with this. But it's a crack-up. He sent me that picture a number of years ago just thinking back on these these days. Uh but uh but this is where it all started, my relationship with Brian in high school and doing some gaming. We had no idea how to do graphics at this point. It was just completely beyond us. But I was really interested and I had a knack for development and just the way the computer worked, it made uh perfect intuitive sense for me. I've always kind of had both right and left brain things going on. So I really got into it and also creatively into it. And so by the time I I graduated from high school, I could develop in 6502 assembly language and I was writing full video games, uh like platform games and

ships moving around and things like that, sound effects. I I I'd done that. So, then I then I was up in northern California. I went up to Berkeley to study architecture because I was trying to find some sensible career connected to my illustration, but I I spent all my time programming and writing games, and that led me to late evenings playing Wizardry and and just blowing off my classes. And as I was playing Wizardry, I kept thinking, I could do something so much better than this because for one, I could write it in assembly language and it would be you know, so much faster and more powerful than what I was getting from Wizardry. I mean, you could actually see the lines plot like it was so slow and and I knew that I could at least you know, do that instantly in in in writing it. So, I wrote the code to do the the front-facing 3D view that Wizardry had. That was sort of my first move where you take a matrix of of numbers that represent places on this dungeon floor with numbers representing each of the doors and things like that, and then it got translated into this

first-person view, you know, drawn sort of in perspective, not really, but but giving you that sense of actually standing there. I had that going where I could walk around a dungeon. That was the first thing that I did. So, then I called Broderbund Software, which was up also in the Bay Area, and I called and I said I wanted to come in and show them a prototype for a game. Now, at this point, I'm delivering pizzas in North Oakland, okay? So, it was kind of an interesting and sketchy thing for me to do. That's That's what I was doing. So, I was really kind of hoping maybe I could do some game development. So, I went up to Broderbund and I and I brought this prototype, which just really was this movement piece, and demoed it for a guy that turns out was the president of the company. Um it had no other game action though in this prototype. It was just this movement thing, and I'm just describing to this guy all my ideas for what this could be so much greater than Wizardry as I'm demoing this for me. And and it only was about a 10-minute demo because you know, it's just that piece of it, and very interesting. And the guy's just looking at it with a blanket expression on his face. I don't remember his name,

but he he was looking at with a blank expression on his face, and then after my demo's done, I get a 45-minute lecture from him on what a real game is and what makes it fun. And I find out I'm a stupid kid who doesn't know what he's doing, and I get kicked out of his office. Back to delivering pizzas. But, I'm sitting in the back of a Shakespeare class, this big lecture hall at Berkeley, bored out of my mind. I'm in the back row, and I'm looking reading the Daily Cal, the school newspaper, and there's an ad in there for video game programmers, people who they were looking for students who develop in 6502 assembly language to do some video game development. I'm reading this ad, I'm like, this is what I do. So, I contact the guy, and it turns out that a company that was in South San Francisco called Hesware was was opening an office in Berkeley cuz they were trying to find some developers, people who knew how to do this sort of thing. There weren't a lot of people that even knew how to do it, and and they thought they could find some by the campus. And I went in, I I

called the guy and I said, "Do you have an Apple? I'll come in and demo, you know, I got a arcade game I can demo for you that's fully functional." And he says, "No, I don't even have an Apple here. I have a Vic-20 or something." And he says, "I'm going to get an Apple in here. I'll go I'll bring my Apple." And so, I put it in a suitcase, and I didn't have a car, so I had to get on a bus and take a bus downtown cuz I was mostly riding my bike back and forth from my where I was living to to school, but I couldn't you know, ride a bike with this you know, I don't know. It was pretty heavy all this stuff. So, I ended up going down and setting it up, plugging it into his monitor, and demoing my game for him, and I got hired on the spot. And I did that part-time for a semester, and then I'm realizing I do not want to be an architect. I want to do this. And so, I bailed out on school, and I ended up working there full-time. And I ended up doing a bunch of platform games for them, a lot of conversions, you know, um you know, Donkey Kong for the Apple and Super Zaxxon and things like that for the Commodore 64. But, I I had a a concept for this game, and I already had this prototype built. So, I I said to him, "Listen, could I do

a Wizardry game for the Commodore 64?" He goes, "Well, all the all the the titles we're doing right now are cartridge titles. We're not doing any you know, floppy disk-based titles. So, if you could get it into a 16K cartridge, then yes, we'd be interested in that." Okay, 16K. Like your emails are bigger than that, right? 16K. So, I'm like, "Yeah, no problem." So, I I started working on this thing, and I did a product for them, which was called Maze Master. So, this is sort of the next step in the evolution of Bard's Tale. This was 16K, and it was in fact a a very stripped-down minimalistic version of what would later become Bard's Tale with wireframe picture lines for the for the corridors, and then a few party members and some simple spell casting. So, I developed this. It was you know, obviously graphically pretty primitive, but notice how I made the window so much bigger than Wizardry's for the corridor as though that would matter. But, you know, to me it was like, "See, I'm even more like in that corridor now."

And anyway, so this this came out, and I was at CES after this was released, and I'm standing in the Hesware booth. You know, my game my title all the titles are out, and I happen to be standing there, and the sales people don't know who I am. This is a very weird company. The people that were running it did not know what they were doing. But, I'm standing there, and a sales person's there, and a distributor comes up and walks right over to my title and says, "What's this? I'm really interested." And the distributor says, "No, you you don't want to look at that. Come over here. I'm going to show you this you know, arcade game we have." And he leads the distributor away, and I'm like, "What is going on with these people?" But, that company was out of business like 2 years later. So, I continued working there, and then I ended up in southern California again hanging out with my parents, wondering what I was going to do next, and I ended up getting a call from Brian Fargo, who at that time had broken off from another company he was working for that had a couple different interests, but one of the things they were doing was making games, and he had broken off and taken the programmers with him and started his own company, Interplay

Productions. So, he said, "Hey, what what are you up to?" I go, "Well, I'm you know, doing some work up in northern California." I was actually doing a project for a company in San Jose right then, but I was just independent. And he said, "Why don't you come down and work for me down here?" And I said, "Okay." So, I ended up moving back down southern California, which is where I was from originally. It takes me kind of away from the game industry, but gave me this opportunity to to be close to my folks again, and also to work on some stuff with Brian. But, I had this on the back burner. I had the whole Bard's Tale thing on the back burner, and I really wanted to just get to that, but I needed also you know, make a living. So, I was doing some conversions for Brian, and I don't remember what he had me working on at first, but it was really boring. Something like educational product of some kind, and I was really bored out of my mind. So, I finally thought, "You know something, I really want to work on my game. So, I'm going to partner with Brian in this because you know, he's he's my buddy." So, I said, "Okay, Brian, I said I've got a game concept, and I've got a

prototype built." And it was further along at that point. So, there were actually you know, there was there was text, there were some characters that were being printed, and I'd done some work replacing these 3D wireframes with bitmaps. I I'm One day, I was just staring at these wireframes, and I'm realizing, "Wait a minute, I'm looking at the graph paper. These things fall in these you know, discrete rectangles. I could just stitch together some bitmaps and probably get something more realistic-looking." Which was what my interest was because I wanted to put I wanted to be in the corridor, you know? And and to the degree that the interface wasn't real-looking, it was sort of not transparent. It wasn't allowing me to sort of enter into the adventure. So, I thought if I could make it more realistic, I can I can realize this goal that I had. And and and and so, that's what I did. I ended up building this prototype, and then I gave it to him, and I showed it to him. He was excited about it. He says, "Yes, let's do this." And he took it, and and we actually had a CES right after that, and he took it and showed it to Electronic Arts, and they were fired up

about it. So, then I ended up being able to work on my own product at that point, and and Bard's Tale began. Say about it. So, here's me at Interplay with the guys that were part of the company at that time. That was it, and we were in this little business complex in Irvine, just like all of us in kind of about the 18 to 22 23 range starting Interplay off, but but it it was a lot of fun. It was a great time And and I was back down in southern California, which was great. So, I I kept working you know, I'd kept working all those years on a on a bigger concept for my game. And one of the things I'd come up with in in as I was up in Berkeley working on the prototype for this game was this idea of having seven different spell casting classes. I really like magic. I was really bored by melee combat. Wasn't interesting to me. And I didn't understand I mean, why couldn't you cast

spells and also hold a sword? I mean, how hard can that really be? And I'm picturing you know, I'm picturing Lord of the Rings and Gandalf with the sword anyway. I'm like, "What's up with this? Why do we have to have this class differentiation?" Because I would expect to be able to do both things if it was me. And that was the whole idea was me being you know, in the adventure. That That was my conception. That's the whole way I look at gaming. So, I think no, I you know, I can learn how to swing a sword as I'm developing as a as a spell caster. So, I I ended up with this idea of seven different spell casting classes, seven different magical disciplines, and I started generating lists of spells for those disciplines. And I had this idea of of mastering all of them. So, you could actually go from one class to another class once you mastered it until you mastered all of them, and then you'd become the Archmage, the master of the seven magics. And I was thinking maybe I'll even call it that. That was my idea at the time. Melee was just a backup thing for me, you know, if your spell points run out then you got to, you know, use a sword or something like that. So there was

this enormously long list of spells at this point that I'd written down. But the ideas behind the spells were suggesting ideas for the game because I'm thinking, okay, one of the classes conjuring. So this person, you know, conjures things. So there was So I'm like, okay, so then you need a way to have conjured things in your party fighting for you. So this whole concept of conjuring and then mind controlling and bringing things I I never heard of anything like this but I'm thinking but of course I would need that. So then I'd need monsters that were able to function autonomously but still be part of your party. So I'd need a slot for them in your list of characters so that they could do that. So these were some of the the concepts that I that I was putting together which I hadn't seen before in a game but they just intuitively came out of the ideas just and my background and interest in all the different spell casting classes. And designs like that, you know, isn't it like that where where one idea leads you to another idea where you have a great idea and then you think of a really amazing way to implement it in the game. You don't necessarily jump to the

perfect idea from the beginning. Sometimes you have to start with a kernel idea like that and then it just stimulates creativity. It was like adding spells with duration. So I had a light spell and I'm thinking, okay, Wizardry's got no animation but I'm doing all this video game development. I can make a flickering torch appear when your when your light spell's going. I think that would look cool. But then I'm realizing I could make a lot of spells that last over time that have a certain function and are also represented graphically by some kind of icon cuz now I've got a section of the screen where this, you know, torch thing is going to appear. So then what else am I going to put over here? So then I'm starting to think about other kinds of spells. Like what if there's a compass that actually appears and turns? Then you're actually it's not only, you know, serving a function but there's a reason for it being a graphical icon on the screen. And then I'm thinking, what about other spells that just hang around and protect you and do things? And I'm like, this this is this is exactly what what I need. So I I started developing a lot of ideas that just started rolling out that way and and becoming sort of core elements.

And then then if you have a torch and you have a a compass, then you're got to Well then I have to have a a way to like mess those up. So then a room where your torch gets put out or a room that you walk into and you get spun around. So if you don't have the compass, then you're going to get lost. Or then I thought, what about a room where your torch goes out and you get spun around? And then I got hate mail over that idea. Anyway, every limitation in Wizardry was like that. How do I get beyond this? I want to go through this wall. I want to teleport. You know, what is four spaces over? I want to be there. And magic is like that. Magic is a way to extend yourself in ways that shouldn't be possible. It was the core of my thinking and my design. Surpassing what you are, becoming something more was all about my design process. But I wasn't really thinking too hard about it at the point. It was more like, hey, what do I want to do? I want to be greater. I want to be powerful. I want to be immortal and unbeatable. That was the idea. And so

I'm I wanted a game where I could be. And and I wanted to develop a game where you could be. That was the idea. And I also had ideas about, you know, graphical complexity and smooth movement and some of those things that were coming out of this. Clear differentiators from Wizardry just really surpassing the limits. And so after I started at Interplay, you know, and and started working with Brian, I realized I came to realize that seven mage classes wasn't going to go. That that was a little over the top. And then I I had this concept also for a bard. And the reason that happened was again it was sort of this chain reaction of ideas. I I had we had background music running in some of these video conversions when I was at Hesware and a and a buddy of mine, Larry Holland, was was a musician, was really good at this and and had come up with a really good way using the screen interrupt on an Apple cuz that's really the only interrupt there was on an Apple II was this screen raster interrupt that would happen and and sort of tickling the the the the speaker a little bit on these

intervals and causing certain tones to appear out of the speaker. It was really fascinating. And so coming up with a way to do that so you could have music running in the background on an Apple II which which was very rare seeing something like that. So I thought I definitely want that effect in in in Bard's Tale. But then I thought, well if I have music running, why not tie it to this idea of spells with a duration and make the music itself part of make it a spell effect that that it's accompanying a spell effect the same way the icons are accompanying a spell effect. And then making maybe even making the tone of the music sound like the kind of spell that that you're wanting to cast. So because I had a bard and he wasn't one of the seven spell casters, it sort of obviated the need for all these spell caster classes. So I ended up cutting it back. I can't remember if I was told to cut it back or if that was my idea. But I ended up cutting it back to four classes which meant I had a ton of extra spells I didn't need. So I was able to pick the ones I really wanted. And then the and and the idea still though of mastering the four classes, the archmage

still was an idea that was in there and it became sort of the central idea in Bard's Tale II and got its own spells. Sort of a reward for exceeding all the limits of time and space, you know? If you can get to that point then you get even more power. Sort of ultimate which is what I wanted. Right? It's what we all want. Existence without limits. So as the project went along, there was a lot of attention on the bard character it turned out which I wasn't expecting at first. I'm going to tell you but that but the but the idea of the music in the background that was at that time because it was technologically difficult for the Apple. It was actually easy for the Commodore 64 but difficult for the Apple. It was unique. So when people saw it, it was surprising to them that it was tied to gameplay. But it but the the idea to make it a central component, name the game after it was not my idea. With Electronic Arts had kind of pushed a consultant on us who had a background in RPG game development but not computer game development. But he was sort of pushed on us with a bunch of ideas and his

ideas were so horrible. I can't even tell you and I'd like to tell you a story about it but I'm not going to have time to get through it. But but we but he did name the game. He originally named it Tales of the Scarlet Bard and it was just so wordy that it eventually got chopped down to Bard's Tale. And he also named the city of Skara Brae. And those are the actual only two things he named in the game and really the only two good ideas he had I felt at the time and Brian felt the same way. There were no cursed items. I don't put cursed items in my games because I don't like cursed items. I like items that do something for you. This is a game. This is the way I look at it. I make it fun. Realism is only helpful to the degree that it draws you in. If it pisses you off, then it it becomes less transparent. This is the way I looked at it. So so if you if there's something in the games that pissed you off, it's it's not that they it's they didn't piss me off otherwise I would have taken them out. And that's the way I look at it. You want to make it fun and also, you know, to keep it transparent. I don't want people thinking about an interface in a game that I'm building. I want them to

think of I want them to see themselves in the game. But I want to build in limits in the game so that I can then give the player tools to surpass them. So I I make it so that once you cast spells, your spell points aren't restored while you're in the dungeon. You have to leave the dungeon to get them restored just so that I can then provide a magical item the the major staff that allows you to regain your spell points while you're in the dungeon. So I'm creating boundaries and limits so that I can create a way for you to surpass them in the game because there's an experience that comes with that that I want people to have. And I also build the game I build all the stuff I work on on a familiar mythos which is the same thing Tolkien did when he wrote his books. He he built the Lord of the Rings on a mythos that was very familiar to the people of of England of his time. So a lot of the a lot of the imagery in it really was very English the way that he tied it in. It wasn't some other totally different mythos. It was very familiar to them and I I wanted

to do that also. I wanted to leverage a lot of what he did and and certain, you know, fantasy books that were favorites of mine at that point were were formative in some of the ideas that I put into it. I don't build games on alternative religious mythos like Hindu gods because I feel like it's it's a it's a it distances people from the content because that's not as familiar content for people. It's ideas, it's creative but it's not a connection. I want to connect people to the content in some way that's familiar to them and then I surprise them with something on top of that. I'm looking for bridges in what I build. So I want to build build a mythos that is familiar to people when I design things. Bard's Tale II also include time puzzles which were because I wanted something more real time involved. If if I could have kept going with all this, it would have ultimately become very real time or or all real time because I I I would I would feel like that would be more representative of reality. So somehow to

to combine both turn-based combat which was the only practical thing I way I could see to solve it at the time was something real time was what I was trying to do. So real time puzzles or real time snares where you have to actually react. You can't just sit there. Monsters will eventually appear and kill you if you walk away and make a sandwich or something like that. Always, how can this more closely simulate reality but not in a way to irritate people but in a way to draw them into. And and these kind of background processes were possible because I was writing in assembly language unlike Wizardry which was written in Pascal. So I was and I was just playing Bard's Tale IV. I want to say something about that, the Barrow's Deep which is is coming out later this year and I just want to say I'm really excited because I'm seeing a lot of the same kind of elements in what the guys are doing on this project. I'm not directly involved in the project. I'm just kind of experiencing it the same way all of you guys will. But the game and the puzzle elements are the kinds of things that I would have

seen Bard's Tale eventually reaching if I'd been working on it. So I'm really excited about what they're what they're doing. And I'm also seeing a big connection to The Mage's Tale, which is the VR adventure that they put together, which I'm going to kind of conclude the talk mentioning briefly, which I really enjoy. And I'm seeing in these games a real continuity between the stuff that was built originally. Bard's Tale 2 was built on this character idea that was my focus, the Archmage. Really kind of the idea I had from the beginning. I wanted everything to be about this idea of mastering all these magics. Because you don't just master the magics in Bard's Tale 2, you become something more, more even than an Archmage. You become the Destiny Knight. And that idea, this idea of assembling pieces of a wand to achieve like this ultimate existence in the game. Um Here I've had all kinds of screens. I didn't talk about those. Um I want to I want to I want to debunk a couple

myths in that have that have popped up over the years about Bard's Tale as part of this because there's some things said Rebecca Heineman has made a number of statements about Bard's Tale and the history of Bard's Tale over the years. I normally don't you don't pay much attention to these things, but they they have been pointed out to me especially recently knowing that I'm going to be here. So I'm going to I'm going to clear up a couple things about that. And and I'll say something about Rebecca and with no offense intended about this, but I I need to set this straight. The the idea that the that Bard's Tale 2 was originally going to be called The Archmage's Tale is not true. The the Destiny Knight was always the idea I had. It was really sort of an idea I had from the beginning even when I was working on The Bard's Tale. It was sort of behind the idea of Archmage, but the Archmage itself the name Archmage was never the idea. It was always going to be this ultimate hero class that emerged out of that idea. It

was always going to be the the Destiny Knight. There was no one that was talking to me about the design of these games or what I had to do or didn't have to do. Brian gave me pretty much carte blanche on on on the game concept. So so I I did I did what I wanted to do on it. So if there's anything you don't like about the design of Bard's Tale 2, which there are a number of things that have been told me over the years about how incredibly difficult it was to solve certain parts of the game, then that's just my fault. And and maybe, you know, a little bit because we didn't play test it as extensively as we could for for difficulty level. But it was never going to be called The Archmage's Tale. I've never heard of that before. That was never discussed. I'm also aware that I it's been said that there there was a that Rebecca said she had a discussion with me at some point back then that I was asked why I didn't add female character options into Bard's Tale. And allegedly my response was that

girls don't play these games. So this has been said. I was just told about this. Okay, that conversation never happened. And and let me just explain to you a little bit about this. Um Um Rebecca was back then Bill Heineman. And and so Bill at that time, so I'm just speaking historically now. Bill was was a very colorful character in the office. Bill was he was almost like a sitcom character. You know, kind of like I don't know if I'm if you guys are most of you are older. Like a like a Latka on Taxi. You know what I mean? He was he was a comedic kind of guy that we all liked, you know, but he was had a kind of extreme personality and you know, he was in the back corner. We called him Burger Bill. And he go he would start the week out by going to McDonald's and buying a ton of burgers and then storing them in his desk and just pulling them out through the week and eating them. It was like that. He he he would do a lot of really peculiar

things that would made us laugh. And he was he wasn't my understanding from Brian at the time was he wasn't even put on on full scale projects because he he had difficulty completing them and would do what Brian would call shut down, which is sometimes when pressure was put on him, he would just spontaneously like take a nap like right at his desk. And then we'd sneak in and turn his monitor upside down and things like that to kind of mess with him a little bit. But we all I really liked him, but I never had a serious conversation with Rebecca, who was at that time Bill, at any point when we were there. And we certainly if I'd had a conversation about female characters, I would have been messing around with with her him at the time him at the time and certainly not having a serious conversation. But I did it's funny. I was looking around and I found some artwork of mine from that time frame from a couple years actually before The Bard's Tale was done. And I pulled it out. And you know, I have almost as many illustrations that I was drawing of women with swords and casting spells that I was drawing at that time as men. So it's certainly not the case

that I didn't envision women as characters or as a girls as playing games and wanting avatars that were in the game on that level or that I was insensitive to gender issues with respect to the game. Gender issues are and and you know, as I say this, I'm like at this moment, I can tell you that my daughter is right now almost certainly at home playing Fortnite right now. My kids are all gamers. So this idea that I just don't picture that is just not true. I've never I've never had that thought that women wouldn't be playing games like the kind of games I I've done. And as I went out and eventually was would do signings and things, there there were girls that came up who had me autograph their games. So I I never had the experience differently and I wouldn't envision it that way. Actually, most of the things I work on even some of the things I'm working on right now, which I'll mention briefly at the end, sort of gender irrelevant the things. I'll just I'm doing a couple I'm doing some voice interactive role playing games for the Amazon Alexa. They're it's fully voice activated free to play kind of things for Amazon. I just had a kids game Wizard of Oz that it was a finalist

in an Amazon competition. And I've done a fully interactive role playing game voice activated role playing game with combat called Shadow Realm, which is also free to play on the Amazon Alexa. So I've been doing this sort of thing. And and you know, you can play the the the you can it's role playing from any perspective. There's nothing gender specific about it. So I wouldn't think in those terms. So So this is this is kind of where I've come from and in my background. And and I never had that conversation. Another deal is the story about Brian and my falling out back in these time time frame. Brian and I had a big falling out right about the time that Bard's Tale was being completed into the development of Bard's Tale 2. Brian and I had a never had a formal agreement for Bard's Tale and what my compensation was going to be. We I just talked to him about being partners in it. He said sounds good. And I had a certain thought in my mind about what that meant. And he had a different thought in his mind. So as Bard's Tale was getting wrapped up, I'm finally like, "Hey, what's the deal

on the money on this?" And he said, "Oh yeah, yeah, I'm going to have my attorney draw something up and I'll show it to you." So I eventually got handed about that time an agreement and I looked at it and it wasn't what I was expecting. So I thought, "Okay, what do I do with this?" And I got advised to hire an attorney to do this. Well, my parents had an attorney for their business. They were going through some legal things. So I got this guy to represent me in this. And he jumped into this. And from there the the entire process of negotiation started going wrong. Okay? And if you've had any experience with attorneys, you know that it's in their best interest for that to happen. But I don't know this. I'm 22 years old. So and this guy's coming back. He's meeting with Brian's attorney. He's coming back and he's saying, "These guys are dragging this out. They're really being negative. They're not going to work with us on this. You know, we're going to end up in court. They're missing all their deadlines." And and I and I'm I'm still working on Bard's Tale 2 now and I'm talking to Brian and he's like, "Dude, this is not happening." But I'm talking to my attorney. He's like, "Nope, nope, they're lying to you." So I'm like, "What's going on here?" And you know,

Brian was my friend, but I'm like, "I'm I'm really worried that I'm going to get screwed." So as time was going, I was developing Bard's Tale 2. This thing dragged on. I mean, we were a year in back and forth on the contract, but there were massive delays where supposedly they weren't being responsive, my attorney's telling me. And Brian's saying, "It's not it's not happening." So what happens is eventually we get it worked out. But apparently I didn't turn over the source code in Bard's Tale 1 until we had the signed agreement. Now I don't specifically remember that. Just to be honest with you, I I don't think it was that big a deal at the time. It certainly wasn't to me. And but I can tell you that many times as a developer, I have with withheld work product before I'm paid. And I've had to do that at different points as a developer. So it doesn't seem unusual that I would have done that here where I would have said I'll I'll because I think they needed the source code so that they could start working on the PC

version. And I was probably saying, "We need to wrap this agreement up before I turn it over." I'm just guessing cuz I really don't remember. But that wouldn't seem strange to me if I did that because I felt like I had a commitment for this for our agreement to get wrapped up. But it wasn't the case that anybody was being extorted for something that wasn't due or something like that. It was it would have only been that. Not like some massive negative thing. And and but I'm not sure exactly. But but there was nothing else about it. And I can tell you that Rebecca at that point was so peripheral to everything happening at the at the company and completely peripheral to Bard's Tale that she wouldn't have known anything about any of that except what Brian might have mentioned at that point. But really again at the margins of of the company and and not involved in Bard's Tale at all until I left and then and then was involved in Bard's Tale 3. And after that point I can't really say what her involvement was at the degree to which she was involved, but she had all my

source code going into Bard's Tale 3. So they there were they had a major running start at that point. Um Anyway, what happened was after this Brian and my falling out I I was kind of you know we worked out a deal we I don't think either of us really liked the deal we ended up with either of us was really thinking it was what we expected, but that's what it was. And then about 5 years later I get a call from my mom and she says you're not going to believe what our attorney's done to us. And I'm like what are you talking about? She says we've been going through this like 2-year long negotiation process with this other company and like our attorney's been telling us the whole way that they've been dragging it out and that that they're acting in bad faith and and they're the other side's been telling us we're not doing any of this stuff. She goes it turns out the attorney was lying the entire way. Like he's pathological. And I'm like mom, this is the attorney that you referred me to for the whole Bard's Tale thing. And she's like oh yeah, he's crazy. And I'm like oh my gosh.

So I'm like all of a sudden I'm thinking back on everything that happened and realizing this guy wrecked my relationship with Brian. I end up writing a long letter to Brian at that point apologizing to him for this and saying man, I'm so sorry. I should have listened to you. I should have trusted you. But this guy really had made me afraid and plus I was a kid not a good communicator myself at that point. So anyway, so Brian and I worked that out and we've had a positive relationship ever ever since that point and and that resolved everything with us. Um it was okay though because the break you know I have no idea how many more titles we'd have gone on and done together if that hadn't happened. We probably would have done quite a few more. But it was okay because I really wanted to go back to school and I was already taking class I transferred my units down from Berkeley. I was already taking classes at UCI in philosophy which is what I wanted to move into from from designing systems to getting to the to the ideas behind the systems the ideas that motivate human behavior which

led me into theology and then into a doctoral program in social ethics at USC where my research and writing was on ethics and technology. Um so speaking of philosophy let me let me say a couple things about philosophy which I've been hinting around about and this is really kind of where I want to take all this for you in whatever my short time is left here. But let me let me draw a picture for you. Technology is rooted in our innate need to extend ourselves. That's what all technology is about our our senses our lives our abilities to surpass limitations to become something more than we are as mere physical human beings. That's how I view technology and the trajectory of technology. It compresses space time. It allows us to be anywhere at anytime to communicate with endless numbers of people to remove physical distance as a limitation to overcome all kinds of physical limitations. That's why we use technology to see beyond our natural

vision and so on. You can see the correspondence between magic and technology if you think of technology in that way and consider it like that. The idea behind them is the same and it's the thing that we yearn for as human beings to exceed our limits and we build devices to make it possible. Almost everything I've been saying about my approach to Bard's Tale goes in that direction and and my design's always been to offer people that kind of experience. And I think the games and movies succeed and fail based on how well they deliver that kind of an experience really whether they allow people to have the experience of exceeding their limits. The experiences that are intrinsic to being human and and this is one of them. This idea of becoming more than we are. It's only one, but it's an important one and I can explain why I think it's a universal need based on a Christian world view. Now I'm not going to dive into theology. So if that doesn't sound good to you you have no fear. Nor does it matter if you

share that world view or you think it's BS. But there's a takeaway in this which which is interesting regardless in the process of game design and what I've been telling you. And as we look at so many movies and maybe games I don't I can't really say so much from that about storylines that don't meet our needs that are failing that don't change our lives that we forget almost the moment we walk out of the theater we feel like wow, I just wasted you know 18 bucks and 2 and 1/2 hours of my time. There's something about all this that's not obvious to designers today whether they're game designers or movie designers. And there's been attention given to the fact that I named the cities in Bard's Tale 2 after biblical cities and that's that's come up and I've been asked about that at different points. Kind of runs antithetical to my design philosophy, but but but I want to explain that. As I was designing Bard's Tale 2 I I came up with the main city named Tangramain and then I had all these other cities that were going to be nodes

in the game and I'm sitting there trying to think of names cool names for the cities only I really had other stuff to work on. So I just started filling in the names of biblical cities that came to mind kind of cuz I'm thinking maybe some names of ancient cities like Skara Brae, but I don't know any except the ones that are in the New Testament. So I started filling in those names. I left out two really obvious cities that would have been immediately recognizable and I used a bunch of the others. And I knew someone was going I thought someone was going to see that and point it out and say you got to take the Bible names out of this game and come up with some fictitious names for cities, but it never happened. They were just placeholder names. Nobody ever noticed. Nobody ever commented on it. Nobody ever said anything. I'm looking at the proofs for the for the map. Nobody's ever saying anything to me. I'm kind of like really nobody knows what these names represent. Um it didn't seem like it or maybe somebody did, but they thought it'd be funny to let it go by. I don't know. So eventually I didn't it went through and and then people

later on figured it out. Um And maybe like that response the not recognizing those cities maybe people are oblivious to the implications of the Christian world view with regard to game design of people wanting to become more than they are. That's a central idea in the Christian world view of extending ourselves of surpassing limits of becoming immortal and unbeatable. This is at the core of the Christian world view to reach a destiny beyond what most people settle for. Tolkien's world rested on that exact same world view. Same assumptions I've made when I come to design not to explicitly put things in like these names of the cities, but the ideas behind them and what people want to to be. So even if you think you know you don't have a clue about you know this Christian thing, his work was formative for a lot of what's happening at this conference. So it's worth thinking a

little bit about something that was so central to his design. But it's this assumption this is Tolkien's assumption is that you're intentionally created. You're not an accident. If you're intentionally created, you were made to work a certain way. Like anything that's intentionally created you have a purpose and you have a certain kind of life built into you. If that's true, that's what his assumption was. If you live that life if you fulfill the thing you're made to fulfill, you have an experience of fulfillment. And if you do something different, you don't. You have a train wreck on some level in your life. That's his idea. So Tolkien took that and created a mythos that had nothing explicitly to do with Christianity, but was based on those assumptions about who we are, what matters, and who we should become. And every bit of Lord of the Rings rests on that idea though there's nothing explicitly in it. If you look at the storyline, the

characters don't directly relate to anything in our culture. They don't make sense of our culture. It's countercultural. His characters are selfless. They are sacrificial in the way they live. They're not Western American individualist consumers. That that's not the characters of Lord of the Rings. They are people that become what they should be or people who intentionally diverge from what they should be. That's his representation of evil in the book. And I I build games the same way or at least that's my idea. Nothing explicitly Christian except where I was kind of messing around with those city names, but offering people the things that the world view says are at the center of being human. And this idea of exceeding limits is one of those things. We want it because we're intended for it. And if you approach game design with that, you have a hook automatically. Whether you buy the world view or not, it is something

that people yearn for extending our senses. It's what all of technology is about. We want to walk through walls. We want to cross infinite space and be powerful beyond the circumstances of life. It's why we love superhero movies. We want to be immortal and unbeatable. We want to be those things because we're intended to have those things in our life. That's the philosophy. So here's the application for game design. You can offer that experience virtually in a game. Just as you can not as transparently. By transparently, I mean with a movie theater there is that there's there's not as much transparency. You don't project yourself into it the same way that you do in a game, but you can offer it also in a movie, this experience of transcending your limitations. So, all I did in Bard's Tale was offer that to people in every way I possibly could. It was one of the central ideas in the whole way I

was approaching it. And the whole ethos of the world was to deliver that kind of experience and make them fun and also make them hard to acquire. Uh so, this progress to becoming a destiny night, something great, uh which is not something bizarre or weird or sick or you know crazy, but something that you're supposed to be. That's what I want to offer in a game. You can offer people all kinds of unusual and bizarre things, but if you want to tap into this sense that people have, you want to offer them the ability to become the best of what they can be. Uh this destiny, not an accident. It's something we want. Um this idea that everything's an accident, nothing matters, and you're headed nowhere, that's not going to sell copies as you build it into a game. Purpose, destiny, meaning, sacrifice. See, these things inspire people and pull them in. You know, people want to grab the Balrog and drag him into the abyss. Makes no sense

of western consumer culture. Why would you want to do that? But people do want that. And if you give them the opportunity to do that in the context of a game, maybe you'll be up here doing a postmortem in 30 years. Maybe. Um Now, if you're hearing that idea, it might also be obvious that virtual reality is not only an effective way to deliver the kind of experience I'm talking about, a transcendent immersive experience, but it's it is the thing itself. The medium's the message. That's what virtual reality is. It's inherently transcendent. You inherently project yourself into into the the world that it creates. It's it's it's as transparent almost as you can get unless you mess it up with too much stuff. And that's one of the ways in game design that we we interfere with the transparency of the interface. We we make it too complicated. The simpler it is, the the more that people don't have to think about what they're doing, the the more you you you you draw them in and commit them to

what's going on in the game. Um and so, VR is a technology not only has the potential to engage people in this amazing way and graphically interesting way, but but to touch them at the core of who they are and what they need. And I I've been playing Mage's Tale this last since it was released about 6 months ago or so. All the elements I'm talking about are here. I mean, this is to me really where Bard's Tale would have ended up. That's the way I feel. If I if if I could have made anything or done anything, I think this is the kind of a game I would have ended up at. Seamless. This chance for me to really be the Archmage. Because if you're in the game, you are the Archmage or or at least you're taking a step in that direction as part of this game. I can feel the game drawing me that giving me this chance to be a hero as I'm standing there or to be afraid, you know, as you know, goblins are running up to me, you know, in the game like I'm almost screaming the first time I'm playing the game. Uh sitting in my apartment all those years ago staring down wireframe corridors, you know, wanting to be there

and now I can. Okay. I have 8 minutes. Questions. Anything you want. Hi there. Um I'll make two questions if I can. Um so, I recall years ago using sector editors to uh pump up the abilities of the characters in Bard's Tale and I still could not finish the game. I think it was probably the first time I ever cheated in a game and we cheated because we couldn't do anything else. Did you guys intentionally make it that difficult? No, you know, well I think I did because I think hard games are good games, but I didn't I never intended the game to not like to be so incredibly frustrating that people were pulling their hair out. But you know how it is, if you're a developer I'm really much more a developer than I'm a gamer, so um I I play a little bit myself, but I know

what I'm doing, right? I'm playing the game. And we had playtesters and I wasn't getting feedback like this game's way too hard. I didn't get that feedback. So, if I had, I would have changed it. I that's all it was, I think. If I'd gotten the feedback I think I have a tendency to make things too hard and I and I need to get feedback from people. And I've I've had that experience. The first time I did this Alexa game, I'm thinking these puzzles are so obvious, these riddles are so obvious, people are going to guess them right away. And and they don't. I'm getting emails from people like, you know, what is this thing? And I'm having to give them clues to figure it out. And I'm realizing sometimes I I think I'm maybe jumping ahead a couple steps when I make when I shouldn't. So, I think that's that was the problem. I think I I thought this is going to be so fun for people and I I made it unintentionally frustrating and I just didn't get feedback. It didn't make it any less enjoyable. I'll say that. I was just wondering if that was an intentional issue or not. Um so, the other question I would ask is, you know, based on uh you know, where technology is today versus where it was when you were starting out, you know, you were saying that, hey, you know, you went to your friend's house, you saw the Apple II,

you were able to you know, and you had enough time that that had a it had a you know, long enough life cycle that you could see it, discover it, spend time learning it, and still be publishing games on it 8 9 years later. I don't think that's really possible today. So, what I'm wondering is from your perspective, you know, when you have that you see that opportunity or you have that idea, um what would you say you would recommend as far as like how do you balance or make the decision that, hey, that's the that's the thing I'm going to make the investment in in the hopes that it actually bears fruit rather than, you know, well, I'm going to kind of sit on the fence and hope that, you know, when it's time to hitch my wagon to that that there's still a market there. Right. Yeah, that's it's difficult because I I had this problem. I waited too long on getting into PC development and stayed with 6502 development too long. Yeah, I think it's really hard. You I think it's a great career move to really think what's going next and how do I get myself up to speed

on that because yeah, if you focus on the moment right now, the level of complexity to to manage the kind of systems and engines and things that are out right now, I think you'll always be be catch-up, never have the opportunity to come up with something really leading edge and creative. You need to think next step. To me, next step is virtual reality. I have no question that that's where almost everything's going to be. I think the technology's going to be just exponentially increasing in time. So, if it was me and I was going back into this kind of game development, I'd be focused on that. But I think you're absolutely right. You have to almost like think ahead like three steps ahead or you get wiped out nowadays. Completely different business nowadays than when I was in it. No question. Yes. Hi. Um I had a quick question as it regards to the the balance. So, earlier you were speaking about, you know, sort of familiarity of the sort of mythos and how that is necessary. Um I was wondering how you feel about like the balance of that versus the inclusivity or exclusivity that might create to the

folks who are just as interested in that sort of thing, but primarily want that experience of being better, but it's not it doesn't look like them, it doesn't feel like them. Well, yeah, I mean, that's a good point because I want everybody to to be drawn into my game. So, that that would definitely be a consideration for me is, yeah, am I keeping anybody from like feeling like I'm starting with an So, maybe it's it's it's it's maybe it's shifting far enough away that it's not like identical to any one community, but yeah, any sense that I'm I'm keeping any gender or or perspective or ethnicity from or community or social economic bracket from enjoying my game, that that would not be what I would want to do. I don't want to connect on a level that taps into those kind of differentiators. So, so right. So, so it's it's it's fantasy enough that almost anybody could project themselves into it. Um and I can think of a couple shows and things that that

that have accomplished that. So, I would be sensitive to that, absolutely. Right. Thank you. Yeah. Yes. What can you say about the burger Easter egg? The burger what? The burger Easter egg. I'm sorry, the burger Easter egg. Burger Easter egg. Burger Easter egg? I don't know what that is. Okay. Sorry. In one of the temples that generates and spawns off a whole bunch of monsters. Uh was that in my game? I don't remember. I'm sorry. I've I've written 150 million lines of code since then, so forgive me. Uh Sorry. Hi there. Uh yeah, first of all, thank you because yeah, this was one of those games that I felt was formative to me. But one of the things I was looking at is it feels to me that there's there's somewhat cyclical ebb and flows over the you know, 20-something years that I've been making games and kind of watching that. And when I was young, I played this game and Ultima IV and found that

there was a vast distance between those two experiences and the stories they told and what's available now. Do you find that it's kind of cyclical in that regard? And and when you look at games like that that are going into the marketplace, what are some of the other themes that you thought would be interesting as like those kind of come and go in consumer interest? Well, I I can't say too much about the game industry. Why am I talking to that? I have a lovely mic. I can't I can't say too much about the game industry specifically, but I think that like what I said, I think that the emphasis on graphical realism has skewed game design in a certain direction and has has drawn so much energy and interest in a certain direction that I think that the elements that made these games so powerful for people are being neglected. And and a lot of people again don't know what like how do I make a game interesting? Let's just come up with a million things you can do in the game or something like that. People don't aren't looking at it correctly. Like what what what it from the the

point like they should be thinking what experience do I want people to have and how do we give them that rather than how do I, you know, throw more graphics in or how do I, you know, give them, you know, more content or something like that. It's not the amount and it's not the complexity. It it really is more the the engagement. And I yeah, I think that that's just not in focus and I think it's more likely the issue nowadays. And and and it's easy for people to make that mistake and I think that was Lucas's mistake, you know, at least in part. So, yeah. Uh yep. Hi. First of all, thanks for making such a great game that sucked so many hours out of my childhood. Uh loved it, but uh Um first of all, I didn't know that there were only male characters in Bard's Tale. I know a lot of my characters had female names. So, uh never knew that. Thanks for mentioning that. Uh But uh one thing I want to ask you was what was it like back in the day when games were made by a programmer compared to today where we have teams around the world and uh agile scrum

uh process heavy test development like It was awesome. It was awesome. Be- Being the in sole control of a world is so awesome and fulfilling. And you know, working with other people can be so frustrating. And uh even today I'm kind of a lone wolf developer to tell you the truth because uh it it I I can get things done efficiently. You know, game development was efficient back then and uh because, you know, but there wasn't there were there's too much There's too much to do nowadays. So, uh so but back at that time it was amazing and uh you know, a great experience. And yeah, I'm drawing pictures. I'm creating, you know, dungeon textures and I'm, you know, uh coming up with the the storyline and I'm writing the code and envisioning what version two's going to look like. And it was it was a blast. It was an amazing experience. So, I I mean, I had help on the game. I don't want to I make it seem like I didn't. I had I worked with artists and sound people. Uh but it wasn't like it is today where there, you know, huge teams. It's it wasn't a cinematic production like it is

today. So, I I think that that's one of the other factors that might make it harder to come up with a great game today is you've got so many different people that are involved. And uh and sometimes, you know, the best ideas are sort of that solitary inspiration that may not make it through, you know, just by throwing It's like a boy band, you know, you can throw a lot of people together. Doesn't necessarily mean you're going to end up with good music. So, uh sometimes it's just that one solo artist that pulls it off. Yes. Um Last one, I promise. The uh you you spoke a lot about like intentionality and the fact that you made the game that you wanted to make up the way you wanted to feel and it was kind of like that sort of if we make it, they will come type of uh experience. Um and it is a great, you know, it is great games and this is um I'm just wondering if you feel like with the industry becoming so big and so quickly, so rapidly, if that ideology or that that idea is being lost in a corporate sort of setting or

how do you I'm I'm just curious as to how you feel about where the direction that it is going? Yeah, I think big companies uh kill all kinds of, you know, art. So, I think that's entirely uh a factor. You know, there's there's so much money in this industry nowadays. It just it wasn't like that before. So, yeah, I think the pressures and tensions are very different today and I think getting a good product out and getting something that that's really life-changing is is a bigger challenge for companies. They got to they've got to roll titles out. They have to roll a certain number out. They need to get a certain level of sales. They they get there thinking that's all about marketing and and a lot of times it's really no, it's about it's about impacting people with with your product. So, uh you know, same with the motion picture industry, you know, that's why we see so many bad movies. You You don't just think you sit there and just think, "Wow, they put in so many millions of dollars and this is it?" You know, you think, "What happened?" But it's that. It's an agenda. It's a corporate agenda and it and it can make getting artistic and really wonderful product out difficult. Any suggestions as to

something like that? well, I mean, hopefully small indie game houses, you know, uh have a working their way around that. So, um I I would think that'd be the solution to it. So, hopefully that's happening. Uh I'm not I'm not My son knows a lot more about the gaming industry nowadays than I do. But uh but I'm hoping that that's sort of the way that all this will will be righted in the future. So, all right. Hey guys, thanks for coming.